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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2021 : 04:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Well, there's the problem.
 .
I'll be blunt: this comes off as a sign that you...
So much for using a winking face to preemptively deflate tension and/or indicate a playful observation rooted in wordplay  (e.g., the same way people use the phrase "inhuman treatment" when the conversation revolves around aliens). Seriously speaking, however, there is a fine line to walk when it comes to beings such as elves; too much similarity and you end up with the stereotypical "humans with pointy ears". An elf lives for a good long while and their mindset - outside of battle or times of crisis - typically moves at a correspondingly slower pace. If an individual elf can pivot on a viewpoint as relatively swiftly as a human can and make it stick, well...you should somehow indicate that they're exceptional in that regard.
Oh, sorry, I didn't get that you were joking. My apologies.
On the point that you rise, I'd say that yes, you're right, as long as the involved trait doesn't interfere with the construction of empathy. If the trait does, then either build your story so that that trait doesn't come into play *in the PoV characters*, or use it as a fatal flaw--something that must be overcome to not lose the stakes (in the case of the elf, it could be a resistance to take action, because "we have time", that constantly blows in the face of the protagonist, and forces them to always be sweating their ass off), or reconsider the choice of protagonist. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 05:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Cancelling the novel line implies no Drizzt novels as well. Oh, look, there is yet another Drizzt novel in the near future...
But it's not WotC publishing it. I'm honestly curious to know who approached who, on farming that one out.
And once upon a time, the novel line consisted of more than just one character.
I have vague memories of Salvatore quite vocally criticizing Wizards after the novel line was cancelled. So I think it was probably him (or his agent) who approached another publisher. Wizards probably wasn't involved, though I imagine they had to give their blessing (and license) to the deal for it to occur.
Other authors could probably do the same, if they were so inclined. I don't think Wizards is opposed to anyone writing Forgotten Realms books. It's just that they don't want to be the ones publishing them (because that's a lot of work -- expensive work -- that they're not equipped to handle, and never really were). So if Erin M Evans, for example, had finished her next Farideh book and shopped it around to other publishers, I imagine Wizards would have given their blessing if some publishing house had picked it up. Unfortunately, writing a Forgotten Realms novel and trying to sell it to a publisher is not a financially-sound career move. Most authors without a successful, long-running series to continue would be taking a huge risk for too little reward. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 17:02:00
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Salvatore went to HarperCollins to secure a deal in which he could continue to publish Drizzt books.
I read some information before from various FR creatives, I think James Lowder might've been among them, saying that while any FR authors could do this in theory, they'd be met with varying degrees of success, or perhaps more appropriately, lack thereof. The external publisher would have to evaluate if the arrangement would be profitable, and unfortunately for most of the other novels, which haven't had as much financial support as the Drizzt books from WotC and TSR, would not be profitable enough for the external publisher to deem worthwhile of setting up an agreement with WotC for. :( |
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MayNovember
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 19:24:37
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LONG LIVE LOLTH DEMON QUEEN OF SPIDERS - WE WILL SACRIFICE THE WOTC WRITERS UPON HER ALTERS - HAIL THE MOTHER OF LUSTS DARK MOTHER OF ALL DROW
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 20:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In your opinion, how much input should Salvatore have going forward? Does his popularity make him a setting juggernaut for the foreseeable future?
Well his novel sales clearly helped the bottom line, however that is not enough. As far as I know he writes about one Drow character and those that he interacts with. He has from very early on in his writings ignored many of the rules changes of the editions and bent the rules of 1st or 2nd to even build his character. That is not enough to qualify a person to be a major player in a shared would. His track record does not even track well for Drow cultures.
He should not merit much input on the Realms as a whole and maybe be a committee member on Drow.
In fairness to the author I have not read all of his books, only a few. You did request an opinion so I have provided mine with what I do know of his works and statements that I have seen. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 22:42:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
He has from very early on in his writings ignored many of the rules changes of the editions and bent the rules of 1st or 2nd to even build his character.
I'll give him a pass on bending the rules. While the current ruleset should provide a framework for what a character can and can't do, I see that as more of a set of rough guidelines than anything hard and fast.
Sure, I'd have an issue with the brawny axe-swinging barbarian suddenly tossing off a lightning bolt or a barely skilled mage suddenly casting meteor swarm, but a character ignoring the often arbitrary class/race requirements of the time, or having some supplemental ability not normally available to his class? As long as it's not too far from the class can normally do, and it serves the story, I'm not going to sweat it.
Story and lore are way higher on my list of priorities than adherence to a ruleset that's going to change in a few years. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 May 2021 22:51:38 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2021 : 22:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Thank you, Wooly. Also, I couldn't find the ignore feature when I searched for it just now. Does Candlekeep not have such a feature?
We do not.
I personally wouldn't use it, if we did. There's been a couple of people that I have disagreed with here most strongly -- but they offered some wonderful fanlore that I would have missed had I ignored them.
Hopefully I'm not one of those  , and like you, even people that make me want to sigh and roll my eyes the most are usually the ones actually giving input... which makes me think... and thinking makes my own ideas better.
Back on topic though.... On Salvatore... man I am so far behind and I feel like every time I get near to catching up to his end novels, there's 5 more in line. I think I'm at about 9 or so from his last one. I hear it's good though, so I really may need to get finished all these witcher series novels and go back to his. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2021 : 22:58:36
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From what has been presented and From what I've read, I don't mind the additions. I'll maintain my "Lore-as-Buffet" methodology in assimilating their current concepts and then add them to my own FR-based campaigns and concepts. The different sub-religious groups certainly make one think about how to use these elements in fun ways, catering and morphing them to fit into their game.
As for the possibility of a retcon, meh, only if you accept/embrace if. I never read (nor wanted to) the War of the SpiderQueen series and I didn't read the one where Eilistraee "dies" either, because I thought the premise was too...."Games of Throne-ish". Nope, wasn't really acknowledged in "my Realms".
I guess this puts a different spin in the whole Ilythiir-cursed concept huh? Is it entirely possible some cursed drow forsook the Lloth-loving ones and killed them all off, forging a path to the North or South? I mean, it's certainly possible the ones who rejected Lloth's blessings were in greater number in certain areas and eradicated the foul, demon-worshippers among their ranks.
Honestly, good. That WHOLE notion of banishing an entire people was -quite frankly- drivel and there was too much RL-Religious connotations involved for my liking (yay, FR version of original sin....please). So with this, you can be a little more loose in your character's background rather than always being a non-evil, on-the-run Drizzt Clone OR Breagan D'Arthe clan... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2021 : 23:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Honestly, good. That WHOLE notion of banishing an entire people was -quite frankly- drivel and there was too much RL-Religious connotations involved for my liking (yay, FR version of original sin....please). So with this, you can be a little more loose in your character's background rather than always being a non-evil, on-the-run Drizzt Clone OR Breagan D'Arthe clan...
I agree on that, and I agree that it makes no sense for all Ilythiiri to automatically follow Lolth (especially when other deities were still in full force, like Vhaeraun). You can still have the Descent&Crown Wars even under these assumptions, just chalk the Descent up to the elves trying to forcefully the drow underground (like LEoF says), without having Corellon "make their skin reflect their evil and whatever", and banishing them. That bit only makes Corellon an ass, and adds very little.
In any case, the problem is not the addition of these new cities, but the umpteenth sidelining of the goodly drow culture that is already there (Eilistraeans). They could have simply had the various enclaves of Eilistraeans banding together and deciding to found a new haven. Maybe go to Rhymanthiin and create a community there. They could have had the Eilistraeans do this AND their new cities at the same time. Or they could have at least mentioned Eilistraee as one of the previously little known drow factions that is now getting more recognition, but nope.
Yes, we're free to ignore the retcon (I don't even use FR as my world). You'll say that this change means nothing to me in practice, but it's still quite a blow. That's because I love Eilistraee--she means a lot to me for personal reasons regarding mental health--and I really like Vhaeraun. It felt good to know that they still had their little place in the Realms, and that new people would get to know them and love them, and that maybe, if the stars had aligned correctly, they could have seen involvment in some stories.
This change means that they will likely "technically" be there, but people will have to dig deep to even get to know them. And very few do that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 May 2021 23:38:18 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 00:10:10
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| The drow's skin complexion could have easily been explained as a result of living under the effect of the faerzress of the Underdark rather than being from Corellon's curse. The faerzress could have bore it's influence over them after they spent so many centuries beneath the Underdark. Given that many other Underdark races have dark or greyish skin like the svirfneblin and the duergar, it seems like a logical explanation, especially since the natural thing to expect from races that dwell in a environment with no or little light would be for them to have pale skin. Corellon's curse could just have be the thing that drove them to exile in the Underdark, like a magical geas. |
Edited by - deserk on 26 May 2021 00:12:02 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 00:19:10
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The drow's skin complexion could have easily been explained as a result of living under the effect of the faerzress of the Underdark rather than being from Corellon's curse. The faerzress could have bore it's influence over them after they spent so many centuries beneath the Underdark. Given that many other Underdark races have dark or greyish skin like the svirfneblin and the duergar, it seems like a logical explanation, especially since the natural thing to expect from races that dwell in a environment with no or little light would be for them to have pale skin. Corellon's curse could just have be the thing that drove them to exile in the Underdark, like a magical geas.
It makes sense, from an evolutionary perspective, for underground-dwelling races to develop dark skin, since it helps them hide better from Underdark predators, most of whom can see in the dark. Being able to blend in with stone is a huge survival advantage in the Underdark. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 00:22:49
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| Meanwhile, the stark white hair, glowing red eyes, and the existence of heat sight AND widespread tremorsense... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 May 2021 02:12:32 |
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LukasJP
Acolyte
Denmark
5 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 00:27:07
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| Hm, can't really say I'm a fan of this, but in general I've not been a fan of a lot of decisions taken since 3.5 moving forward. But that's the beauty of D&D, we can pick and choose to create our own ideal Realms at the table :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 02:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The drow's skin complexion could have easily been explained as a result of living under the effect of the faerzress of the Underdark rather than being from Corellon's curse. The faerzress could have bore it's influence over them after they spent so many centuries beneath the Underdark. Given that many other Underdark races have dark or greyish skin like the svirfneblin and the duergar, it seems like a logical explanation, especially since the natural thing to expect from races that dwell in a environment with no or little light would be for them to have pale skin. Corellon's curse could just have be the thing that drove them to exile in the Underdark, like a magical geas.
It makes sense, from an evolutionary perspective, for underground-dwelling races to develop dark skin, since it helps them hide better from Underdark predators, most of whom can see in the dark. Being able to blend in with stone is a huge survival advantage in the Underdark.
Except the opposite is what happens. Without light, most things lose pigmentation.
And even if the dark skin was for hiding, white hair certainly doesn't help with that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 02:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The drow's skin complexion could have easily been explained as a result of living under the effect of the faerzress of the Underdark rather than being from Corellon's curse. The faerzress could have bore it's influence over them after they spent so many centuries beneath the Underdark. Given that many other Underdark races have dark or greyish skin like the svirfneblin and the duergar, it seems like a logical explanation, especially since the natural thing to expect from races that dwell in a environment with no or little light would be for them to have pale skin. Corellon's curse could just have be the thing that drove them to exile in the Underdark, like a magical geas.
It makes sense, from an evolutionary perspective, for underground-dwelling races to develop dark skin, since it helps them hide better from Underdark predators, most of whom can see in the dark. Being able to blend in with stone is a huge survival advantage in the Underdark.
You'll be pleased to know that 3.5's Drow of the Underdark, though not necessarily a FR-specific book, gave a bunch of alternative origins, including one where Lolth wrought that change upon her followers for pretty much that same reason.
Personally, I prefer the origin that their skin was always that color and the curse that drove them underground was limited to just that.
I actually like the arbitrariness of Corellon's curse driving all drow underground. Gives it a certain....Olympian quality to it-Corellon not being a clear-cut hero. I just can't stand the skin-color changing aspect of it due to the connection with something that was used in RL to justify racism and slavery. Interestingly, it looks like while the Descent part of the curse has been retconned away, they might be keeping the MToF origin. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 02:18:37
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Personally, I prefer the origin that their skin was always that color and the curse that drove them underground was limited to just that.
Same (and that's how Elaine has it in Evermeet: Island of Elves).
As for Corellon's curse, I'd prefer if he wasn't involved at all, and instead the elven kingdoms indiscriminately drove the drow undergorund at the end of the 4th Crown War. The effect would be the same (add grey morality to the elf&drow conflict), but Corellon would be less of an ass. Like, Eilistraee had been fighting both Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun alone in ILythiir for such a long time, she had warned the elves that things were wrong, yet Corellon left her alone and didn't give a flying until Lolth became involved. When Miyeritar was destroyed and Eilistraee was K.O'ed by the destruction of Miyeritar, he didn't give a flying either. Moreover, the Sundering that he approved and that killed an ungodly amount of people just so that the elves could get their pretty little paradise (oh, and Miyeritari/Eilistraeans being excluded from this). He already has plenty of Olympian qualities, he doesn't need to be a predominantly negative character. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 May 2021 02:20:37 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 02:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The drow's skin complexion could have easily been explained as a result of living under the effect of the faerzress of the Underdark rather than being from Corellon's curse. The faerzress could have bore it's influence over them after they spent so many centuries beneath the Underdark. Given that many other Underdark races have dark or greyish skin like the svirfneblin and the duergar, it seems like a logical explanation, especially since the natural thing to expect from races that dwell in a environment with no or little light would be for them to have pale skin. Corellon's curse could just have be the thing that drove them to exile in the Underdark, like a magical geas.
It makes sense, from an evolutionary perspective, for underground-dwelling races to develop dark skin, since it helps them hide better from Underdark predators, most of whom can see in the dark. Being able to blend in with stone is a huge survival advantage in the Underdark.
You'll be pleased to know that 3.5's Drow of the Underdark, though not necessarily a FR-specific book, gave a bunch of alternative origins, including one where Lolth wrought that change upon her followers for pretty much that same reason.
Personally, I prefer the origin that their skin was always that color and the curse that drove them underground was limited to just that.
I actually like the arbitrariness of Corellon's curse driving all drow underground. Gives it a certain....Olympian quality to it-Corellon not being a clear-cut hero. I just can't stand the skin-color changing aspect of it due to the connection with something that was used in RL to justify racism and slavery. Interestingly, it looks like while the Descent part of the curse has been retconned away, they might be keeping the MToF origin.
Elven religion in 5e is very Gnostic, Corelli is "The God above Gods" and Lolth is the materialist, power hungry Demiurge that trapped Elven souls into monograms from the Immortal shapeshifters they had been in 5e lore. The Seldarine are the Aeons and the Dark Selderine are Archons functional. Elven souls now even reincarnate. All are functionally eminations of Corellon Larethian, even Lolth. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 02:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Corelli is "The God above Gods"
I mean, Op. 6 is amazing and all, but I think I prefer Vivaldi. ;) |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 04:04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Except the opposite is what happens. Without light, most things lose pigmentation.
In our world, yes. But I wouldn't quibble if the official answer to the question "How did drow/duergar/svirfneblin get dark skin?" was "They evolved that way." It makes about as much sense as anything else in a world with magic and flying dragons. |
Edited by - HighOne on 26 May 2021 04:04:56 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 04:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The drow's skin complexion could have easily been explained as a result of living under the effect of the faerzress of the Underdark rather than being from Corellon's curse. The faerzress could have bore it's influence over them after they spent so many centuries beneath the Underdark. Given that many other Underdark races have dark or greyish skin like the svirfneblin and the duergar, it seems like a logical explanation, especially since the natural thing to expect from races that dwell in a environment with no or little light would be for them to have pale skin. Corellon's curse could just have be the thing that drove them to exile in the Underdark, like a magical geas.
It makes sense, from an evolutionary perspective, for underground-dwelling races to develop dark skin, since it helps them hide better from Underdark predators, most of whom can see in the dark. Being able to blend in with stone is a huge survival advantage in the Underdark.
You'll be pleased to know that 3.5's Drow of the Underdark, though not necessarily a FR-specific book, gave a bunch of alternative origins, including one where Lolth wrought that change upon her followers for pretty much that same reason.
Personally, I prefer the origin that their skin was always that color and the curse that drove them underground was limited to just that.
I actually like the arbitrariness of Corellon's curse driving all drow underground. Gives it a certain....Olympian quality to it-Corellon not being a clear-cut hero. I just can't stand the skin-color changing aspect of it due to the connection with something that was used in RL to justify racism and slavery. Interestingly, it looks like while the Descent part of the curse has been retconned away, they might be keeping the MToF origin.
Elven religion in 5e is very Gnostic, Corelli is "The God above Gods" and Lolth is the materialist, power hungry Demiurge that trapped Elven souls into monograms from the Immortal shapeshifters they had been in 5e lore. The Seldarine are the Aeons and the Dark Selderine are Archons functional. Elven souls now even reincarnate. All are functionally eminations of Corellon Larethian, even Lolth.
I am really not a fan of the MToF changes to elf and drow lore (they even changed it from what is in the SCAG, which goes back to why I have said lore in 5e changes on a dime). Elves have always believed in reincarnation, but MToF implies it is something forced on them.
For me at least, while I am not a fan of the Crown Wars, I am even less of a fan of the condemnation in MToF. The CW has been a part of the lore for a good while now. Maybe they saw it as problematic, and the MToF was a (poor) attempt to make the drow a little more sympathetic, at least in the beginning. But the CW does that too, if you actually look at the lore (the fact that all were condemned, not just those who followed Lolth).
Again, I am okay with new lore, but it should be built on a foundation of what is already there. Just shoving something in there (and then saying it has "always been there") is bad, lazy writing. This is true even if they are sticking with the lore that is presented in MToF, because these drow "subsets" weren't part of the lore presented, so se again have an example of lore changes with each new publication (and we're still in 5e). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 05:32:37
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I personally think that both the catastrophic effects of the Sundering and the forced descent of all drow had the same cause: Elven High Mages thinking they knew what they were doing, then finding out their magic had done far more than intended -- and that the unintended consequences may have been worse than the intended goals.
I prefer this spin because it puts the fault squarely on the people initiating the event, and because it also plays into the arrogance displayed by elves in so many other scenarios. I think it's also kind of fitting because it means that the elves created their own deadliest enemies, and that the drow were right to hate the elves.
There's no need to assign divine culpability when mortal arrogance can serve the same purpose. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 08:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's no need to assign divine culpability when mortal arrogance can serve the same purpose.
However, if the latter heavily detracts from the benefactor status of the race/species in question, then it may become slightly problematic? Faerunian elves are similar to generic D&D elves in that they're overwhelmingly Chaotic Good. Granted, this doesn't indicate that their people as a whole are divine automatons that never morally err, but it does set a precedent that - in my opinion - should at least sometimes be observed.
Also, we are presently talking about one major societal disaster. Start piling up more egregious "mistakes" of this general nature and that label of "freedom and life loving friends" will start peeling off in a hurry  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 11:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's no need to assign divine culpability when mortal arrogance can serve the same purpose.
However, if the latter heavily detracts from the benefactor status of the race/species in question, then it may become slightly problematic? Faerunian elves are similar to generic D&D elves in that they're overwhelmingly Chaotic Good. Granted, this doesn't indicate that their people as a whole are divine automatons that never morally err, but it does set a precedent that - in my opinion - should at least sometimes be observed.
Also, we are presently talking about one major societal disaster. Start piling up more egregious "mistakes" of this general nature and that label of "freedom and life loving friends" will start peeling off in a hurry .
I disagree. Good people can still make mistakes. And I think it less problematic to assume mortal fallibility, when it's already established as a thing, than to put it all on a deity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 13:04:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's no need to assign divine culpability when mortal arrogance can serve the same purpose.
However, if the latter heavily detracts from the benefactor status of the race/species in question, then it may become slightly problematic? Faerunian elves are similar to generic D&D elves in that they're overwhelmingly Chaotic Good. Granted, this doesn't indicate that their people as a whole are divine automatons that never morally err, but it does set a precedent that - in my opinion - should at least sometimes be observed.
Also, we are presently talking about one major societal disaster. Start piling up more egregious "mistakes" of this general nature and that label of "freedom and life loving friends" will start peeling off in a hurry .
FR Elves have committed atrocities that put humans to shame. They're one of the most genocide-happy people out there. That's always been the case. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 May 2021 13:24:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 13:51:53
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The drow's skin complexion could have easily been explained as a result of living under the effect of the faerzress of the Underdark rather than being from Corellon's curse. The faerzress could have bore it's influence over them after they spent so many centuries beneath the Underdark. Given that many other Underdark races have dark or greyish skin like the svirfneblin and the duergar, it seems like a logical explanation, especially since the natural thing to expect from races that dwell in a environment with no or little light would be for them to have pale skin. Corellon's curse could just have be the thing that drove them to exile in the Underdark, like a magical geas.
Illithids with purple skin as well. It could very well be that other people's skin is less "grey" and more a "purple-grey" and that drow skin is actually less "ebony" so much as "really dark purple". Not saying I want that... but it's an idea to consider. I know what I'm saying may be hard to picture because when we all say colors, we think different... so I submit this paint color comparison to show what I'm thinking
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/760545455805590419/
In it, the colors purple haze, fragrant lilac, and violet petal could all EASILY be light grey skin colors. Lavender lining could easily be a skin coloration that I might call "fey" for like a gloura that might be described as living underground. Vesper Violet and Blueberry popover could be "dark grey" skin colors, painted sunset could be a "darker fey" skin, and purple rhapsody could be illithid type skins.
If the Illythiiri skin coloration was naturally a "chocolatey" or "nut brown" type coloration then I could easily see an addition of "purple" turning their skin "black" or "ebony" looking. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 May 2021 14:06:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 14:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Personally, I prefer the origin that their skin was always that color and the curse that drove them underground was limited to just that.
Same (and that's how Elaine has it in Evermeet: Island of Elves).
As for Corellon's curse, I'd prefer if he wasn't involved at all, and instead the elven kingdoms indiscriminately drove the drow undergorund at the end of the 4th Crown War. The effect would be the same (add grey morality to the elf&drow conflict), but Corellon would be less of an ass. Like, Eilistraee had been fighting both Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun alone in ILythiir for such a long time, she had warned the elves that things were wrong, yet Corellon left her alone and didn't give a flying until Lolth became involved. When Miyeritar was destroyed and Eilistraee was K.O'ed by the destruction of Miyeritar, he didn't give a flying either. Moreover, the Sundering that he approved and that killed an ungodly amount of people just so that the elves could get their pretty little paradise (oh, and Miyeritari/Eilistraeans being excluded from this). He already has plenty of Olympian qualities, he doesn't need to be a predominantly negative character.
You could easily have BOTH explanations KIND OF be true.... by that I mean "Corellon is the god of elven high magic" and he may be something like a "source" for it (much as how Shar was the "source" for the shadow weave). So, elven High Mages design and cast a high magic ritual that casts down the illythiiri. Corellon as a "source" may not necessarily be totally aware and watching all "flows" that pass through him (by that, I give an example of a network engineer that enables a path for network traffic... but doesn't necessarily KNOW without examining what all is occurring across said path). The high magic ritual seeks the energy, gets the energy, and completes the ritual. The participants say "It was Corellon's will", and rather than disabuse them of his exact "power" or "knowledge" of what he sees and knows about and thus strain their "belief" in him.... he just doesn't correct them.... or he realizes what they've been saying only years later. So, rather than "being an a$$" it may be that he's just "not revealing that he didn't know what they were going to do because that could cause a crisis of faith that might be even more detrimental to the elven people in the long run"... or at least that might be how he justifies his silence on telling the truth... because all gods lie.
Then take into account the idea Wooly puts forth above that perhaps the High Mages enacted a ritual in such a way that it did more than they intended (and for those who do computer scripting, I'm sure you can understand how THAT might happen). Throw into this idea that "high magic" isn't exactly "math" where you might be able to empirically "check your work" and those same High Mages may actually BELIEVE that the powerful result was because of Corellon's will.... and not even realize it was that they used some gem that was REALLY a abyss-tainted piece of chardalyn instead of a piece of polished piece of onyx. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 May 2021 14:48:00 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 15:50:05
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Yeah, but the problem then would be: "Ok. Why didn't Corellon do sh*t about this huge mistake after the deal was done, since it was a high magic thing that he could have very likely worked to reverse?"
By having it come down to the elven armies of the remaining nations coming together in the aid of Aryvandaar (to remove the stalemate between Ilythiir and Aryvandaar), and then indiscriminately driving the drow underground, and then going after the Vyshaan, Corellon would have more of an excuse. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 May 2021 15:50:21 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 16:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, but the problem then would be: "Ok. Why didn't Corellon do sh*t about this huge mistake after the deal was done, since it was a high magic thing that he could have very likely worked to reverse?"
The elves are his children. As a parent, you may not always be able to fix your kid's mistakes and there may even be times where you just accept what happened if it can be used as a significant learning moment ("I warned you several times about not sticking that metal fork in the plug but you went ahead and did it anyway. What did you learn?") |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 17:39:47
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| That would be fitting in the case that I describe, but not if Corellon's children used something so intimately tied to him to do something horrible. Think if a parent gave a rocket launcher to his children, and they destroyed the neighbours' house. Said parent would surely share A LOT of the responsibilities, and if he didn't try to at least repay the neighbours, he'd be not only friggin' stupid (for giving a rocket launcher to his children, though this isn't the case for Corellon), but also a total ass (this is definitely the case for Corellon). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 May 2021 17:40:15 |
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Upcoming changes to drow
