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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Also, I don't see how this impacts existing lore in any significant way. What we've seen of the non-Lolth-worshipping drow so far suggests that they live in isolated cities a long way from civilization, so no one in Faerun is likely to even know they exist. That's not a retcon, in my book, it's an expansion -- no different from the introduction of Maztica, the Hordelands, or Karatur.
That would be true if RAS just said, "oh, look at these new drow cities". What I mind is this:
quote:
It was once widely believed that all drow elves lived belowground and worshipped Lolth. But truths that have long been buried are now beginning to come to light...
But this is 100% true to current lore. It was widely believed that all drow lived belowground and worshipped Lolth. Go to Calling Horns, Hardbuckler, Luskan, Elturel, Red Larch, Daggerford, or any other location in Faerun and you will find that everyone believes the above. You think they know about Eilistraee and her struggles to redeem the drow in all the villages and towns of the North? Come on. The first ten or twenty Drizzt books are all about how everyone thinks drow are evil, Underdark-dwelling Lolth-worshippers. So the statement that "It was once widely believed that all drow elves lived belowground and worshipped Lolth" is completely, 100% accurate. That is what most people believe. Absolutely nothing has been retconned by this statement. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:36:49
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
In the 2nd/3rd edition years it wasn't so bad that RAS ignored the other Dark Seldarine deities since there were other novels that dealt with those deities and could kind of fill in the gap so to speak. But yeah I can understand the distaste now that RAS has exclusive rights to make FR novels. He has a tendency to ignore aspects of lore and existence of many deities, to the point that his books often feel like their own universe rather than a cohesive part of the Forgotten Realms.
It would have been cool to have had another "War of the Spider Queen"-esque book series by other FR authors. Except one where they don't destroy any cities or gods. The first two books were quite good in my opinion at least.
And yes I have to say, it is worrying how little Ed is a part 5e Forgotten Realms. I feel like he had more input on 4e (which was not much) than he has now.
Ed had almost no input, beyond Laerakond (which I thought was a good feature...I just thought it was a bizarre choice to shunt Maztica off to Abeir and swap it in, when they could have put it somewhere in the open sea and retained it when 5th Edition became a thing) in 4th Edition. I don't want to start another "edition wars" string, however.
And it still baffles me why RAS would dislike Eilstraee as much as he does...name one other FR deity who has both a dot-com and a dot-org web addy dedicated to them. I confess I don't really use Eilistraee in the games I play screen jockey for, but the urge to force less choice and not more has always been puzzling to me, particularly when deities need to compete for the hearts and minds of the mortal planes. Or am I just thinking in established lore terms that someone wants to warp beyond recognition?
The Dark Elf trilogy was good reading, but afterwards, it sort of got, well boring. Add to that the killing off of all drow deities save Lolth (the Drowpocalypse), only to bring them back because reasons...speaks to a lack of planning for where they want to take the concept. Plus I confess I'm still a bit miffed over the senseless idea to off Qilue Veladorn, eradicate the Promenade, and make Skullport ever so "slightly" more boring.
It's always someone with "good ideas" making things more boring.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 21 May 2021 22:37:14 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TKUThe Saekolath stuff sounds like it isn't even hidden or anything, like there always was this good drow city openly operating on the surface in South Faerun and we never heard about them because the Sword Coast is so faaaar away. Even have humans in the picture trading in the drow marketplace. Is it supposed to be in Chult or the Shining South? Because you'd think it'd have warranted a mention if that was the case. Certainly, South Faerun is not "Far from the Spider Queen and her terrors" because Southern Faerun's underdark is/was crawling with drow cities and outposts as much as the North.
I agree, it will be silly and clumsy if Wizards tries to tell us that Saekolath always existed in Faerun and everyone always knew about it. Unfortunately, knowing Wizards and all the bad decisions they've made over the past few years, this would be par for the course. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:46:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
And it still baffles me why RAS would dislike Eilstraee as much as he does...
If I had to guess, it's because he wants the drow to redeem themselves through their own efforts, not through the intervention of a goddess. Perhaps he sees the latter as a bit of a deus ex machina. |
Edited by - HighOne on 21 May 2021 22:46:48 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
But this is 100% true to current lore. It was widely believed that all drow lived belowground and worshipped Lolth. Go to Calling Horns, Hardbuckler, Luskan, Elturel, Red Larch, Daggerford, or any other location in Faerun and you will find that everyone believes the above. You think they know about Eilistraee and her struggles to redeem the drow in all the villages and towns of the North? Come on. The first ten or twenty Drizzt books are all about how everyone thinks drow are evil, Underdark-dwelling Lolth-worshippers. So the statement that "It was once widely believed that all drow elves lived belowground and worshipped Lolth" is completely, 100% accurate. That is what most people believe. Absolutely nothing has been retconned by this statement.
You left out the main part of the quote:
quote:
But truths that have long been buried are now beginning to come to light...
Man, seriously, this is very plainly trying to say that the existence of goodly drow on the surface is some big reveal and a novelty. You have to try very hard to think that WotC is just adding things, and that they aren't also trying to replace Eilistraee and Vhaeraun for all practical purposes, even if they will "technically" still be there. Guess what? The overwhelming majority of people never get to know "technical" aspects of the lore about a fictional world, and "technical" aspects of this kind end up to be never relevant, especially in an era of D&D narrative where so few stories are released, and where those few stories are all about the same thing.
Moreover, Eilistraee is better known that you'd think, because in many regions, they actively reach to humans, elves, and so on. Talking of recent developments, Waterdeep is a huge example, of this, especially in what we saw in 2016. Recently (still 2016), Eilistraee has also been showing up in person on the sword coast, interacting with people, and encouragin her followers to build friendships. Her followers took part in the whole Rage of Demons ordeal near Hillsfar. A whole Eilistraean community in Waterdeep, sponsored by the Harpers, would surely deserve a spotlight in this, don't you think? But WotC has been ignoring this ever since Ed added it in Death Masks.
As I mentioned, Eilistraee has been intentionally--and very conveniently, for RAS--left out of this "huge" rework, that is all about a big aspect of Eilistraee. Not only that, but those two "new" societies are actually aspects of Eilistraee's culture that RAS ripped off and rebranded. You can't act blind and deaf, and say "oh, it's actually alright and this doesn't impact existing lore in any way". It doesn't in any "technical" way, but in reality it has a massive impact.
Also, you left all the rest of my post unaddressed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 23:00:39 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:53:53
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
And it still baffles me why RAS would dislike Eilstraee as much as he does...
If I had to guess, it's because he wants the drow to redeem themselves through their own efforts, not through the intervention of a goddess. Perhaps he sees the latter as a bit of a deus ex machina.
If true (and it might be, given the comment about him--the writer od Drizzt McSanctimonious--finding Eilistraee "preachy"), this would just show a glaring ignorance of the lore, and how he never even cared to give Eilistraee's lore a read.
First, talking about redemption for the drow is very misleading, because most drow have nothing to redeem for. The commoners are just victims of abuse, and victims of abuse shouldn't be denied help because "heal yourself". In fact, Eilistraee's message to the drow isn't "repent, hurr durr" but a message of healing and hope.
Second, Eilistraee is an empowerer kind of deity. Like, one of her main points is that she works to empower the drow to find their path, while being careful to never force a choice on them. This is among the first things about her that you read in Demhiuman Deities, in the overview of the Dark Seldarine. She offers aid and warmth to the all drow, she lets them know that an alternative exists, and provides a home to those who reject Lolth. Or did you think that she magically brainwashed drow into no longer being Lolthites? Because that's the only way this could be a deus ex machina, and that's very obviously not the case. Nonetheless, from the FR Wiki:
quote:
Eilistraee taught her children kindness and love, showed them the freedom and joy of life that they were denied, and all around cared after them. Even though she couldn't promise safety,[11] she strove to protect and help them strengthen, grow, and flourish in a surface world that had become hostile to them, but that was their rightful home. She aided them in hunting, swordcraft, and other practical matters of their everyday lives, in immediately useful ways.[2][4][22]
Eilistraee's help could come in the form of direct action—and she was not unwilling to retaliate in protection of her followers, if the situation called for it[26][1][15]—but she far preferred her assistance to not be intrusive, or even openly revealing of her involvement. In fact, it wasn't Eilistraee's way to intrude in her people's lives, because she felt that a forceful interference would prevent them from making their own choices. On the contrary, she strove to empower each drow to find their own path in the world,[25] and did so by watching over them in their "journey", and by offering them the tools to travel it themselves and overcome its challenges—both large and daunting, and the smaller ones posed by daily life. For example, she could subtly lead a drow braving the surface to a community of her followers to find a sense of belonging, support, or even a home.[27][28] Her hunting horn sounded to hearten her faithful and scare away dangerous creatures which threatened them. Her song,[26] or her silvery radiance and silvery moths,[2][4] guided drow who were lost in the darkness or in the Underdark to a safe place, or yet lightened childbirths that occurred in the dark,[2][4] and hers was the force that brought a stag within the reach of hungry drow.[22]
Likewise, Eilistraee intervened when her people needed visible confort or emotional help. She could make them know that they were not alone, and that someone was watching over them, when they felt lost (usually through her own light,[2][4][22] or as a protecting, shadowy, tall female dark elf that danced with the drow).[29][29] She could provide them with insight and inspiration to reach an important goal,[30] or even lend her magic, if needed, to break any shackle preventing them from freely embracing the path they wanted to walk, or so that they didn't have to give themselves to Lolth in exchange for help when they felt overwhelmed (an example was the situation that saw her helping Liriel Baenre to heal her companion, Fyodor, from a fatal wound).[31] Furthermore, in the daily ritual known as the Evensong, Eilistraee would "listen" to the (usually) wordless messages of her followers as they let out the emotions, experiences, and reflections gathered during the day.[4]
The Dark Maiden sang her call to all dark elves—from the highest matron mother to the lowest male slave—sending them dreams or visions, showing them a different, better life, and the beauty of the world (especially when they were close to the surface).[11] Lolth was powerless to stop these visions, as too much interference from two goddesses could easily bring a mortal's mind to insanity,[32] and despite her continued efforts to suppress any knowledge of her daughter,[11] the drow definitely came to "feel" the Dark Dancer at some point in their lives, with varying reactions.
While many would either not understand their dreams and emotions, or chose to ignore, disbelieve, or reject them, many others secretly yearned for the goddess and all that she wished for them. In fact, it was not unusual for them—if they thought they could get away with it, without the knowledge of a priestess of Lolth—to choose to spare the life of a worshiper of Eilistraee, decline to tell other drow what they'd seen of their activities, or linger to watch one of their dances rather than breaking it up. That said, despite those feelings, not many drow could find the strength and resources to make the final step and leave their past behind to cleave to Eilistraee on their own.[32][11] Furthermore, the Dark Maiden's efforts were opposed by the power of Lolth and the other evil drow gods, and what she could do was very limited.[25]
Elaine Cunningham shows this very well in her work, in the relationship between Liriel and Eilistraee. Honestly, it's likely just RAS that dislikes Eilistraeem because someone else got to touch what he perceives as his turf (without any basis). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 23:40:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
And it still baffles me why RAS would dislike Eilstraee as much as he does...
If I had to guess, it's because he wants the drow to redeem themselves through their own efforts, not through the intervention of a goddess. Perhaps he sees the latter as a bit of a deus ex machina.
The drow are held down by a deus ex machina, but that's apparently okay.
And honestly, I don't see how a drow saying "man, Lolth sucks!" and seeking another deity is a deus ex machina.
If it is, then Drizzt himself is guilty of that, because he turned away from Lolth and to another deity. It may have changed in newer books (which I've not read), but Drizzt used to proudly proclaim himself to be a servant of Gwaeron Windstrom and Mielikki. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The drow are held down by a deus ex machina, but that's apparently okay.
The fun part is that not even Lolth as a deus ex machina can work to explain how her society still survives. Like, the behind the scenes of the Lolthite society is so poorly thought out that Lolth's tyranny still fails to explain why 99% of drow are her followers in canon. The only thing that can explain that is sheer author bias/plot armor (or an absolute inability to develop consequences from premises), especially in FR (where the faith of people directly influences a deity's power), as I've explained in another post on this thread. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 23:04:06 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 23:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Add to that the killing off of all drow deities save Lolth (the Drowpocalypse), only to bring them back because reasons...speaks to a lack of planning for where they want to take the concept.
Their only plan was, according to Perkins, making Drizzt/RAS' cast (and, apparently, drow PCs) "moar speshul". Also, making people dislike Eilistraee by sniping and subverting all key lines of lore to make her be the exact same as Lolth, but even worse somehow. 'Cause we gotta be more puerile than a kindergartener, and spite people who like different things from the stuff we drool over! Also, break their toys, because we're the only ones who can have toys.
Good thing that drivel was retconned into oblivion. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 23:19:10 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 23:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And honestly, I don't see how a drow saying "man, Lolth sucks!" and seeking another deity is a deus ex machina.
If it is, then Drizzt himself is guilty of that, because he turned away from Lolth and to another deity. It may have changed in newer books (which I've not read), but Drizzt used to proudly proclaim himself to be a servant of Gwaeron Windstrom and Mielikki.
Many people ignore this aspect, actually. They always frame things in terms of deities coming down and grabbing drow, but never in terms of drow choosing a deity.
Following Eilistraee, for a drow, can be motivated by "I follow Eilistraee because she embodies what I believe in" (a drow artist could follow her just for her patronage of artists, for example) or by more personal reasons related to personal stories; depends on the individual. In the ancient times of FR history, when the first instance of her culture appeared, it wasn't Eilistraee to go around converting people, it was people founding a nation based on ideals associated with her. Eilistraee acted as an empowerer and patroness for that.
Apparently, people always forget that deities aren't about *one* thing only, and that they don't go around forcing people to worship them (unless your name is Lolth). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 23:45:07 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 23:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Moreover, Eilistraee is better known that you'd think, because in many regions, they actively reach to humans, elves, and so on. Talking of recent developments, Waterdeep is a huge example, of this, especially in what we saw in 2016. Recently (still 2016), Eilistraee has also been showing up in person on the sword coast, interacting with people, and encouragin her followers to build friendships. Her followers took part in the whole Rage of Demons ordeal near Hillsfar. A whole Eilistraean community in Waterdeep, sponsored by the Harpers, would surely deserve a spotlight in this, don't you think? But WotC has been ignoring this ever since Ed added it in Death Masks.
Recent developments have no bearing on what was "once widely believed." That "once" clearly orients us in the past. Just imagine this quote is talking about 1356 DR, around the time of the Icewind Dale Trilogy. It's a pretty accurate statement about that year and what people believed at the time, isn't it? |
Edited by - HighOne on 21 May 2021 23:33:50 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 23:37:12
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I imagine this quote is talking about "up to the reveal", because if you say "it was once", and then immediately say " but now", then by assuming "it was once" = "in the distant past", you'd be leaving out a huge swath of time.
In 1356, it still wouldn't have been as realistic as you think, because Eilistraeans already had communities, and they regularly organized expeditions just to build friendships with humans, elves and the likes (by bringing food, healing, arts). Drizzt found himself in an area where drow were particularly disliked, due to hight Lolthite activity.
Also, man, you're doing semantics now, rather than addressing the point...
I even said that I know that WotC isn't telling people "yo, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are no longer part of any lore" (that would be an extremely stupid move of them), but that's what they're doing for all practical purposes, as I explained in length. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 23:45:15 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 00:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I imagine this quote is talking about "up to the reveal", because if you say "it was once", and then immediately say " but now", then by assuming "it was once" = "in the distant past", you'd be leaving out a huge swath of time.
I suppose that's a fair interpretation. But regarding the larger point, I think it's worth remembering that this is just a teaser. We really don't know much of anything about these other drow just yet. It could very well turn out that Eilistraee plays a big role in their society and Wizards has done a wonderful job of working within the existing lore.
Do I think that will be the case? No. Pretty much everything Wizards turns out these days is awful. But I'm not ready to pounce just yet -- not until I see more. |
Edited by - HighOne on 22 May 2021 00:29:52 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 00:50:17
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| I'm sure we'll get a clearer picture over the next few weeks. Between the game, the MtG set, TV show and the book, maybe some published D&D adventure.... I think we'll be swimming in information soon whether we want to be or not. IIRC they have stuff all summer relating to Drizzt. Next thing coming up is a mtg thing scheduled for the 23rd. Might just be more cards of the remaining companions. Might be the revelation of the set having a plot that ties into this whole 'good drow' thing. We probably won't be getting any new information until then. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 00:52:54
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I imagine this quote is talking about "up to the reveal", because if you say "it was once", and then immediately say " but now", then by assuming "it was once" = "in the distant past", you'd be leaving out a huge swath of time.
I suppose that's a fair interpretation. But regarding the larger point, I think it's worth remembering that this is just a teaser. We really don't know much of anything about these other drow just yet. It could very well turn out that Eilistraee plays a big role in their society and Wizards has done a wonderful job of working within the existing lore.
Do I think that will be the case? No. Pretty much everything Wizards turns out these days is awful. But I'm not ready to pounce just yet -- not until I see more.
I'd love that. But it's RAS with all his biases being given free reign (from what he said), so I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 May 2021 00:55:22 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 01:14:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
I'm sure we'll get a clearer picture over the next few weeks. Between the game, the MtG set, TV show and the book, maybe some published D&D adventure.... I think we'll be swimming in information soon whether we want to be or not. IIRC they have stuff all summer relating to Drizzt. Next thing coming up is a mtg thing scheduled for the 23rd. Might just be more cards of the remaining companions. Might be the revelation of the set having a plot that ties into this whole 'good drow' thing. We probably won't be getting any new information until then.
Wait, they are really doing a whole "Summer of Drizzt" thing? Like, not even a "Summer of the drow", just a "Summer of Drizzt"?
They really are rubbing him in the face of new D&D people. Are they worried that new players like tieflings far more than drow, and want them to familiarize with the poster boy? Or are they just trying to draw more Drizzters to the game?
But honestly, as spiteful and puerile as this will sound, if their new thing comes at the expense of shitting on the work of others and on characters dear to many, I hope the overexposure will blow up in their faces, and that new people will actually get a big Drizzt burnout. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 May 2021 01:17:14 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 01:33:57
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"Let's take a rich and established yet simultaneously straightforward lore and strip away the history while adding a layer of unnecessary complexity."
Boy, am I glad I switched to 2e. You folks have fun tussling with 5e and beyond  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 01:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
"Let's take a rich and established yet simultaneously straightforward lore and strip away the history while adding a layer of unnecessary complexity."
Boy, am I glad I switched to 2e. You folks have fun tussling with 5e and beyond .
2e already has a whole goodly drow culture in Eilistraee and her followers. WotC didn't add any complexity, they're just randomly warping things. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 02:16:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
"Let's take a rich and established yet simultaneously straightforward lore and strip away the history while adding a layer of unnecessary complexity."
Boy, am I glad I switched to 2e. You folks have fun tussling with 5e and beyond .
2e already has a whole goodly drow culture in Eilistraee and her followers. WotC didn't add any complexity, they're just randomly warping things.
I was referring to these new drow races/subraces/divisions/whatever. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 02:32:42
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| Ah, I see. Can't say I like the new Aev and Lor either. Since they're limited to 2 cities, they could have been simply drow, and called themselves afer their cities, sort of like "Menzoberranyr" drow. Having Aevendrow and Lorendrow makes them look like sub-subracers, even if they aren't (which we don't know yet). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 02:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ah, I see. Can't say I like the new Aev and Lor either. Since they're limited to 2 cities, they could have been simply drow, and called themselves afer their cities, sort of like "Menzoberranyr" drow. Having Aevendrow and Lorendrow makes them look like sub-subracers, even if they aren't (which we don't know yet).
I took it as more of a cultural split long ago kind of deal, but not long enough ago for any phenotypical differences besides the appearance differences between most different communities of drow. Like, "this sect of us was always a thorn in the side of collectivism and the building of stable communities, and when Lloth showed up they flocked to her and began hoarding resources and we kind of just had to move on somewhere else." |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 02:55:13
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I think it might be that they are distilling drow into three types/culture groups. Good Underdark Drow-'Aevendrow, good surface Drow-'Lorendrow', and Lolth-worshipping Underdark Drow- 'Udadrow', and centering them around the three cities of Callidae, Saekolath, and Menzoberranzean. The wording with stuff like the origin of drow as we have known it-now the 'Udadrow' is Lolth 'convincing' a 'group' to follower her into the Underdark while meanwhile 'many' rejected her and just went into seclusion (or in the case of 'Lorendrow' not going into hiding and just being far south enough from the Sword Coast to justify never hearing of them). It sounds to me kinda like going forward, the Udadrow, Lorendrow, and Aevendrow are going to be treated as being on parity going forward, which is just all sorts of nuts.
But again we'll probably know more in the next week or two, so best to not get too carried away. That really would be the worst case scenario at that point though, I think. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 03:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Honestly? These new groups both seem great to me. I hate race as a monolith - it’s lazy worldbuilding at its finest, and almost impossible not to make racist - so this is a welcome change. Now, why they didn’t just avoid retconning the friendly drow who lived in East Rift with the dwarves and the Gondsmen is beyond me, but I’ve long ago accepted that no good 4e idea could be left alive.
Now can we /please/ get Many-Arrows back?
4e was worse for making drow a monoculture. They got rid of all members of the Dark Seldarine except for Lolth, because they wanted Drizzt to be extra specialz.
@All: oof, this thread sure took off lol. Much of what I wanted to say has been said by others already, so I'll try not to rehash things too much.
For one thing, this newest development is just another instance of WotC inventing new lore and ignoring what is already there. I am not against new lore, but there is a difference between providing new lore that is built on a foundation, and just pulling new lore out of a hat. I don't know if this was instigated by RAS or not, but either way, he is the one essentially launching the project (for lack of a better word). Even if they do in fact follow Eilistraee, we are unlikely to see that in any of his books.
Sure, you could make the argument that they're good because of their own merit, not because of a deity, but here's the thing: one, it's the Realms, where following a god (usually multiple) is a way of life, and, with the exception of Lolth, you aren't forced to worship a particular one. You follow the one that most resonates with you. Drizzt initially did this with Mielikki. Drow follow Eilistraee because they choose to turn away from Lolth, because Eilistraee has shown them a better path--that doesn't mean she forces them onto that path. Following a goodly deity doesn't negate a person's merit. RAS has said he doesn't like Eilistraee for similar reasons; he's under the impression her followers are good simply because they follow her, as if every single deity is Lolth and brainwashes their followers.
While I suspected it before, after an interview I saw with RAS, I'm almost entirely convinced he is projecting his ex-Catholic bitterness into the Realms. To an extent, most authors will project something into their work, however, if RAS despises religion that much--even fictional ones--then maybe he shouldn't be writing in the Realms. I don't care what his real world beliefs are. I care that he paints the idea of all faith as negative. He twisted Mielikki's lore to make Catti-bire a religious zealot who declared all goblinkin must be slaughtered "because Mielikki said so". Then Drizzt, the agnostic, took the "moral high ground" and told her she was wrong, and thus began to turn away from Mielikki. Ironically, he did the exact same thing Catti-brie did--he didn't question why, he just turned away. Heck, Mielikki returned his friends to him, and he was still "meh".
I'm not a religious person, but if we're going to talk about inclusivity, painting faith--particularly fictional faith that isn't really meant to resemble most modern religions--as bad doesn't exactly scream inclusive. But the majority of RAS' characters who have faith are painted either as zealots (and I'm not just talking Lolthites) or naïve. Sure, D&D gods can be in your face at times, but I really don't get the aversion to their existence. Dragons? Bring 'em. Elves? Sure. Undead? Yay! Gods? Eww.
The other issue here is that Drizzt is a gateway into the Realms for many (myself included). I have seen comments numerous times on various platforms that read something like, "I only know the lore through RAS' novels." When RAS' works are so popular (for whatever reason), and he has a loyal following, and he is essentially representing the Realms at this point, his "I do what I want" attitude is not only narcissitic, it is disrespectful to the other creators.
I had more to say, but I can't remember. I'll post later if I do.
Here is the interview I saw (don't have time stamps, sorry). It was posted not long after the release of Relentless (it contains spoilers). A couple months or so after this interview was done, Starlit Enclace was announced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HsaC92khQY&t=1s |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 12:34:28
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Wishful thinking maybe, but I do hope he shows respect to the lore of Miyeritar and Ilythiir, since he is likely going to go talk about the roots of the drow, and those two realms would be very relevant in that telling. The dramatic history of the elven kingdoms (as well as the dwarves) in Faerun is one of the things I find most appealing about Forgotten Realms, so I hope he doesn't mess it up, and does as he said in that "All Things Drizzt" YouTube video, where RAS said something to the effect of "I'm not going to change anything. I'm expanding."
Also with this particular Saekolath city that is populated by jungle-dwelling drow, it would be prudent to know how they ignored the Descent and Corellon's curse which was what pushed the dark elves into the Underdark to begin with. And also the only places I think this community would fit in would be in Chult, the Misty Vale or the Shaareach Forest, since they'd have to be particularly remote to not be widely known of before. Chult is vast, but both the Misty Vale and the Shaareach Forest are largely unexplored, and in the case of the Misty Vale, there are reclusive and xenophobic wild elves who make en effort to drive out outsiders from their domain, to hide a shameful association with the Ilythiir empire of the past. Perhaps they share these woodlands with these unorthodox drow. |
Edited by - deserk on 22 May 2021 12:36:54 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 12:39:31
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| He won't mention Ilythiir and Miyeritar, because that would require him to include Vhaeraunite and Eilistraean cultures respectively. Also, PR talk is PR talk. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 14:39:38
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https://youtu.be/9HsaC92khQY?t=2789
From the video CorellonsDevout cited, this is the timestamp where RAS talks about how he doesn't like Eilistraee, because he feels that "Eilistraee was put in to be the reason why there are good drow", or in other words that drow can only be good through or because of her. Which is all really his own peculiar warped thinking, as there's nothing that says that good drow are exclusively Eilistraeean.
Also like with any faith, anything can be corrupted. Eilistraeeans aren't good by virtue of alone of being a follower of Eilistraee, but by following the spirit of her teachings through acts that align with her teachings. No doubt there are Eilistraeean sects that are corrupt and misandrist, and have interpreted and warped the teachings for their own personal agenda and benefits, as there are sects and heresies of Lathander, Helm, Tyr, etc., and any other faith in the Forgotten Realms. |
Edited by - deserk on 22 May 2021 14:56:55 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 15:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
https://youtu.be/9HsaC92khQY?t=2789
From the video CorellonsDevout cited, this is the timestamp where RAS talks about how he doesn't like Eilistraee, because he feels that "Eilistraee was put in to be the reason why there are good drow", or in other words that drow can only be good through or because of her. Which is all really his own peculiar warped thinking, as there's nothing that says that good drow are exclusively Eilistraeean.
I have addressed that matter in this thread too.
The thing is that even in her role as a guide for the drow, Eilistraee doesn't magically make them good. That's such a smooth-brained strawman, based on willful ignorance (or shall we say resentment for not being the only one allowed to do "good drow").
Eilistraee's an empowerer/nurturing kind of deity. She strives to help all drow find their own path to happiness, and is very careful to never force choices on them. She helps people who are victims of abuse (most drow under Lolth) to rediscover the joy and self-worth they were denied, to heal and rebuild themselves (though I wouldn't expect RAS to be able to grasp this, given how he handled what he believes to be the "redemption" of Entreri, a victim of abuse--by literally torturing him until he was scared of going to hell). Furthermore, following Eilistraee is motivated by "I follow Eilistraee because she embodies what I believe in" or by more personal reasons related to personal stories, depends on the individual. Not by "I follow Eilistrae so that I'll become good". For example, an artist could be interested in her just for her patronage of arts. Likewise, Eilistraee's culture is inspired by her teachings, but it's not about worshipping her. It isn't motivated by: "I do this because I follow her", but by: "I do this, because I believe it's the right thing to do/it's what leads to happines/etc". Eilistraee then acts as an empowerer in this sense.
Here's the FRWiki quote again
quote:
Eilistraee taught her children kindness and love, showed them the freedom and joy of life that they were denied, and all around cared after them. Even though she couldn't promise safety,[11] she strove to protect and help them strengthen, grow, and flourish in a surface world that had become hostile to them, but that was their rightful home. She aided them in hunting, swordcraft, and other practical matters of their everyday lives, in immediately useful ways.[2][4][22]
Eilistraee's help could come in the form of direct action—and she was not unwilling to retaliate in protection of her followers, if the situation called for it[26][1][15]—but she far preferred her assistance to not be intrusive, or even openly revealing of her involvement. In fact, it wasn't Eilistraee's way to intrude in her people's lives, because she felt that a forceful interference would prevent them from making their own choices. On the contrary, she strove to empower each drow to find their own path in the world,[25] and did so by watching over them in their "journey", and by offering them the tools to travel it themselves and overcome its challenges—both large and daunting, and the smaller ones posed by daily life. For example, she could subtly lead a drow braving the surface to a community of her followers to find a sense of belonging, support, or even a home.[27][28] Her hunting horn sounded to hearten her faithful and scare away dangerous creatures which threatened them. Her song,[26] or her silvery radiance and silvery moths,[2][4] guided drow who were lost in the darkness or in the Underdark to a safe place, or yet lightened childbirths that occurred in the dark,[2][4] and hers was the force that brought a stag within the reach of hungry drow.[22]
Likewise, Eilistraee intervened when her people needed visible confort or emotional help. She could make them know that they were not alone, and that someone was watching over them, when they felt lost (usually through her own light,[2][4][22] or as a protecting, shadowy, tall female dark elf that danced with the drow).[29][29] She could provide them with insight and inspiration to reach an important goal,[30] or even lend her magic, if needed, to break any shackle preventing them from freely embracing the path they wanted to walk, or so that they didn't have to give themselves to Lolth in exchange for help when they felt overwhelmed (an example was the situation that saw her helping Liriel Baenre to heal her companion, Fyodor, from a fatal wound).[31] Furthermore, in the daily ritual known as the Evensong, Eilistraee would "listen" to the (usually) wordless messages of her followers as they let out the emotions, experiences, and reflections gathered during the day.[4]
The Dark Maiden sang her call to all dark elves—from the highest matron mother to the lowest male slave—sending them dreams or visions, showing them a different, better life, and the beauty of the world (especially when they were close to the surface).[11] Lolth was powerless to stop these visions, as too much interference from two goddesses could easily bring a mortal's mind to insanity,[32] and despite her continued efforts to suppress any knowledge of her daughter,[11] the drow definitely came to "feel" the Dark Dancer at some point in their lives, with varying reactions.
While many would either not understand their dreams and emotions, or chose to ignore, disbelieve, or reject them, many others secretly yearned for the goddess and all that she wished for them. In fact, it was not unusual for them—if they thought they could get away with it, without the knowledge of a priestess of Lolth—to choose to spare the life of a worshiper of Eilistraee, decline to tell other drow what they'd seen of their activities, or linger to watch one of their dances rather than breaking it up. That said, despite those feelings, not many drow could find the strength and resources to make the final step and leave their past behind to cleave to Eilistraee on their own.[32][11] Furthermore, the Dark Maiden's efforts were opposed by the power of Lolth and the other evil drow gods, and what she could do was very limited.[25]
You know whatis the most stupid part? If RAS had bothered to open a book, he would have read that Eilistraee strives to leave the drow free to forge their path, and make sure that they have the opportunity to do so, at the very beginning of Demihuman Deities. If he had used kindergarten level-logic, it would have been clear to him that Eilitraee doesn't magically make the drow good. RAS very obviously doesn't know shit about the Realms. Nah, why bother to respect the work of others that you used to be where you are, when you can act all self-righteous, take a nonsensical moral high ground, and strawman your way out of questions that you don't like? I would have respected him far more if he had been open and said "I don't like Eilistraee because I don't want to share" (in a shared setting, btw). The way he discredits the work of Ed, after using that work to be a blip on the radar, shows his true colors.
quote:
Also like with any faith, anything can be corrupted. Eilistraeeans aren't good by virtue of alone of being a follower of Eilistraee, but by following the spirit of her teachings through acts that align with her teachings. No doubt there are Eilistraeean sects that are corrupt and misandrist, and have interpreted and warped the teachings for their own personal agenda and benefits, as there are sects and heresies of Lathander, Helm, Tyr, etc., and any other faith in the Forgotten Realms.
As long as they're condemned by the rest of the faith, are a minority, and are painted as corrupted, rather than the norm, yes. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 May 2021 15:35:18 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 16:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
https://youtu.be/9HsaC92khQY?t=2789
Also like with any faith, anything can be corrupted. Eilistraeeans aren't good by virtue of alone of being a follower of Eilistraee, but by following the spirit of her teachings through acts that align with her teachings. No doubt there are Eilistraeean sects that are corrupt and misandrist, and have interpreted and warped the teachings for their own personal agenda and benefits, as there are sects and heresies of Lathander, Helm, Tyr, etc., and any other faith in the Forgotten Realms.
Of course, but RAS paints it as automatically corrupted. Yes, you have your extremists (which he essentially made Catti-brie), but the opposite and "right" path isn't necessarily no faith. Particularly in the more recent books, not to mention the descriptions of Drizzt's life that are being told with the launch of this "summer of Drizzt", there is a lot of emphasis on Lolth as an "evil goddess". Which is accurate, but the way the narrative is framed is Drizzt not only forsakes Lolth, but even forsakes Mielikki, despite all she has done for him. And as I said above, he doesn't even question whether Mielikki herself actually told Catti-brie to declare genocide on goblinkin, he just said, "You're wrong, therefore Mielikki is wrong for me now." This is also a form of extremism, and really no better than what Cat was doing. There is no balance in his writing. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 17:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
And as I said above, he doesn't even question whether Mielikki herself actually told Catti-brie to declare genocide on goblinkin, he just said, "You're wrong, therefore Mielikki is wrong for me now." This is also a form of extremism, and really no better than what Cat was doing. There is no balance in his writing.
The whole Mielikki-genocide thing is really problematic, even looking at just Drizzt's own story. Sure, it's problematic looking at the lore of the Realms, but as has been pointed out, that's not always a consideration in these tales.
So even if you ignore the idea of a good-aligned nature deity calling for genocide, it doesn't jive with Drizzt's history. Not only has he met a goblin that was not evil and destructive, there's the fact that Drizzt himself has gone against the evil ways of his people. If Mielikki accepted his service, that proves she's aware of the fact individuals can change and go against their culture.
For Mielikki to call for genocide -- or for Cattie-Brie, knowing Drizzt and his service to Mielikki, to do the same -- goes against Drizzt canon as well as Realms canon.
It's just as nonsensical as the thing that finally drove me away from the Drizzt books: Drizzt having seen so many people coming back from certain death and then assuming a fallen tower and empty helm meant all of his friends were dead. I was already bored with the character, and seeing this violation of his own canon meant that for me, the character had jumped the shark* and that I just couldn't follow him any more.
*Ironically, I learned of this concept from an RAS interview where he explicitly said he didn't want that kind of thing to happen with Drizzt. For me, though, jumping the shark is when something so ridiculous happens that nothing else after that is believable. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 May 2021 17:32:13 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2021 : 18:02:16
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Looks like Dagnabbit's spirit is back. Udadrow looks too much like "U Da Man!" to me. U Da Drow, bro!
Anyway, this was brought to you by the number 8 and the letter D. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Upcoming changes to drow
