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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2021 : 10:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The sudden appearance of a thriving good drow civilization kind of undermines the kind of sacrifice and struggle drow face in turning away from evil. Let's face it, for all that WotC tries to sanitize and retcon stuff, drow ARE synonymous with evil, and it undermines people like Drizz't and Liriel who have to willingly, willfully turn their back to everything they know.
It also makes drow racism come off nonsensical, because suspicion and hatred of the drow is a perfectly valid and reasonable opinion to have of them. Rebellious drow have to struggle against those stereotypes for good reason, because they are 100% true.
Amusingly enough, Eilistraee herself is pretty undermined in canon D&D; the Forgotten Realms are the only place she has a presence outside of the other spheres where the Dark Seldarine are worshipped - Lolth's top priestess isn't even from the Realms, she's from Oerth. It would be interesting to have Eilistraee grappling with the other evil powers happy to accept the drow into their fold, prime among theme being Kanchelsis.
The demihuman Pantheons' membership lists got unified in MTOFs, so Eilistraee will likely be present in Greyhawk if it gets updated to 5e.
And the struggle of good Drow for redemption of their race still applies to Udadrow, its just that there are now other Drow races then the mostly evil Underdark one. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 11:01:19
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Honestly? These new groups both seem great to me. I hate race as a monolith - it’s lazy worldbuilding at its finest, and almost impossible not to make racist - so this is a welcome change. Now, why they didn’t just avoid retconning the friendly drow who lived in East Rift with the dwarves and the Gondsmen is beyond me, but I’ve long ago accepted that no good 4e idea could be left alive.
Now can we /please/ get Many-Arrows back? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 21 May 2021 11:04:52 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 11:12:25
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Well personally I do like the idea that RAS is taking the drow to new and fresh places, rather than the same old chaotic, backstabbing mess that is Menzo. These new cities could also perfectly have existed without altering previous lore or norms, since they could have been so remote that few people in Faerun are aware of their existence. And let's be honest, the primary viewpoint of the Forgotten Realms comes from the North and the Western Heartlands, since that is where virtually every story or adventure takes place in. So that is really the lens we are getting when we view the Realms, which means in other words, we might not have gotten the entire picture.
Though I will say I will find it extremely strange that even now, when his book will presumably make so much focus on non-Lolthite drow societies, if he won't be making any references at all to the other gods of the Dark Seldarine, especially Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. I probably wouldn't mind as much, had there been other Forgotten Realms novels which could fill in the gap and represent the whole lore of the drow. 
And also I think it's quite peculiar, since RAS is clearly good chums with Ed Greenwood, that he would make effort to ignore those two deities of the Dark Seldarine which were specifically made by Greenwood for the Forgotten Realms. I say ignore since out of all these years and out of all these many books RAS has made, not one of them has ever referenced these gods, and has essentially depicted or given virtually everyone who isn't a FR lore enthusiast the impression that Lolth is the only god of the drow. |
Edited by - deserk on 21 May 2021 11:23:20 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 11:32:24
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Well personally I do like the idea that RAS is taking the drow to new and fresh places, rather than the same old chaotic, backstabbing mess that is Menzo. These new cities could also perfectly have existed without altering previous lore or norms, since they could have been so remote that few people in Faerun are aware of their existence. And let's be honest, the primary viewpoint of the Forgotten Realms comes from the North and the Western Heartlands, since that is where virtually every story or adventure takes place in. So that is really the lens we are getting when we view the Realms, which means in other words, we might not have gotten the entire picture.
Though I will say I will find it extremely strange that even now, when his book will presumably make so much focus on non-Lolthite drow societies, if he won't be making any references at all to the other gods of the Dark Seldarine, especially Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. I probably wouldn't mind as much, had there been other Forgotten Realms novels which could fill in the gap and represent the whole lore of the drow.
And also I think it's quite peculiar, since RAS is clearly good chums with Ed Greenwood, that he would make effort to ignore those two deities of the Dark Seldarine which were specifically made by Greenwood for the Forgotten Realms. I say ignore since out of all these years and out of all these many books RAS has made, not one of them has ever referenced these gods, and has essentially depicted or given virtually everyone who isn't a FR lore enthusiast the impression that Lolth is the only god of the drow.
He's alway said that he disliked non-Lolth drow deities, so he doesn't include them. At best, given the title of the new book, it will probably include a bunch of drow from Menzo packing things, moving on the surface, and founding Drizztland under the guidance of (or with the inspiration of) Drizzt. I mean, look at the title of the upcoming book: Starlight Enclave. It kinda gives everything away.
That way, WotC will be able to have their "supah ebil" Lolthites, and at the same time have a village of good drow, all under RAS' control, so they can proceed to forever neglect to even mention Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, or any other drow faith and culture in all the upcoming stuff, and RAS will have the "monopoly" on non-Lolth drow that he seems to want.
Plus, when fans will legitamely point out that a bunch of random drow exiles scattered here and there across Toril change absolutely nothing, when it comes to the drow effectively being "an evil race", they will say: "look at Drizztland&the other RASlands! We have whole communities of good drow!". Even though they could already to this now, and in a much more significant way, if only they remembered that Eilistraee has her own culture&society that predates Lolth having any meaningful influence on the Torillian drow, and din't try to make Eilistraee seem irrelevant at every opportunity.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Well personally I do like the idea that RAS is taking the drow to new and fresh places
He really isn't. He's taking ownership of stuff that has always existed in FR (Eilistraee), that Ed and others created, and acting like it's his idea by slapping a random name on it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 12:50:00 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 11:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Honestly? These new groups both seem great to me. I hate race as a monolith - it’s lazy worldbuilding at its finest, and almost impossible not to make racist - so this is a welcome change. Now, why they didn’t just avoid retconning the friendly drow who lived in East Rift with the dwarves and the Gondsmen is beyond me, but I’ve long ago accepted that no good 4e idea could be left alive.
You know what's funny? These groups have always existed (Eilistraee's followers can easily be both the Aev and Lor-whatever drow). RAS has just ignored them forever, and now he's slapping a name on them and pretending that they're his creation.
As for the friendly drow from 4e... friendly drow societies certainly weren't a 4e idea. If anything, 4e did all it could to erase the main friendly drow culture from the face of the Realms. Apparently the fact that RAS is literally taking Eilistraee, acting like she isn't a thing, and claiming that all she stands for is actually his creation rather than Ed's, is flying all over everyone's heads. Because really, those two groups combined give you Eilistraee's society.
About Many Arrows... nah, orcs don't qualify for the general consensus on "sexy", so I doubt they'll ever get an actual rework. Though, if they get one, since RAS is the one who mostly worked on Many Arrows, then we might actually get Many Arrows back. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 12:51:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 11:48:28
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Replying to the OP, guess WotC and RAS have finally got what they wanted.
Now Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been retconned from the Realms, and RAS has the monopoly on the non-Lolth drow. Cool story.
Granted, it's actually good that different drow cultures are acknowledged. The scummy part is how RAS did that by shitting on the work of other authors. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 12:24:20 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 12:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
And the struggle of good Drow for redemption of their race still applies to Udadrow, its just that there are now other Drow races then the mostly evil Underdark one.
Which doesn't solve the problem at all. What we needed was different drow cultures, not races. And different drow cultures have been there for 30+ years, thoroughly ignored by RAS.
Adding drow subraces is the worst way to solve the problem. Rather than leaving the drow as one race with different cultures (and showcasing things like Eilistraee's culture), because the drow race actually made up of free willed people who can form different kinds of societies, WotC/RAS come up with one evil subrace (likely the vast majority of the race, btw), and leave the non-evil drow to the rest. Basically, this just shifts the problem. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 12:51:48 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 13:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Replying to the OP, guess WotC and RAS have finally got what they wanted.
Now Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been retconned from the Realms, and RAS has the monopoly on the non-Lolth drow. Cool story.
Granted, it's actually good that different drow cultures are acknowledged. The scummy part is how RAS did that by shitting on the work of other authors.
Neither have been retconned from the realms,they are mentioned in Swordcoast Adventure's Guide and in Mordenkaiken's Tome of Foes 5e D&D source book and none Drizzt 5e Novels. Its late 3.5e into 4e that killed most of the none Lolthian Drow Gods, 5e brought them back and expended the Dark Seldarine in MTOFs. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 13:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Replying to the OP, guess WotC and RAS have finally got what they wanted.
Now Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been retconned from the Realms, and RAS has the monopoly on the non-Lolth drow. Cool story.
Granted, it's actually good that different drow cultures are acknowledged. The scummy part is how RAS did that by shitting on the work of other authors.
Neither have been retconned from the realms,they are mentioned in Swordcoast Adventure's Guide and in Mordenkaiken's Tome of Foes 5e D&D source book and none Drizzt 5e Novels. Its late 3.5e into 4e that killed most of the none Lolthian Drow Gods, 5e brought them back and expended the Dark Seldarine in MTOFs.
This change is replacing their cultures with Aev and Lor-whatever. They're not technically retconned, but as I said, WotC is now free to ignore them forever and ever, effectively retconning them for all practical purposes. Especially when the Lor and Aev drow overlap with Eilistraee's culture. The Lorendrow's being in harmony with nature--as well as other races--and thriving in forests has always been part a thing the for Eilistraeans. Likewise, the secrecy of the Aev is something you can find in Eilistraean communities in high-threat areas, and the fact that they display traits that are the opposite of Lolth's society is characteristic of Eilistraeans in general. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 13:28:09 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 13:27:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
No, he's creating 2 new subraces (or subsubraces given Drow already are a subrace in 5e). And to be fair to RA Salvatore he's likely getting his marching orders from WotC, so he can't be blamed for this.
Knowing RAS, I can't rule out he is to blame for this. It won't be the first time he changes something just because he don't like it...
I can rule it out, I don't think these two new Drow surface cities are even his idea, but he's just the one WotC is getting to flesh them out. He's compared the upcoming Trilogy to Homeland where he first got to really heavily explore Menzo.
This is driven by woke politics, RAS had no real reason to do this, he's the only one writing FR novels now so he has a monopoly on good Drow already at this point.
There was a huge freak out last year on the idea of monsterous races like Orcs, Drow, Kobolds, etc..., from the woke.
We see the changing approach to races first in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything where there are no set racial stats anymore, then in the new Ravenloft book that also has no set stats for its new races, we saw it in the Draconic Unearthed Arcana where they rebuilt Kobolds as a play race, radically changing them from Volo's Guide to Monsters in terms of racial features and flavour.
This is likely only the beginning of a much bigger shift when it comes to races in D&D cast as villains, and it won't be restricted to Drow.
This is basically one piece in a subtle realms shaking event in a sense.
I really think this leads to a Faerun Campaign Book,perhaps named Drizzt's Guide to the Faerun.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 13:30:58
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Nah, RAS is very likely to be involved in this. He's been recently saying that WotC is giving him free reign on the drow, that he's making changes, and whatever. If it's drow, RAS is likely involved.
PS: "Villainous" races being reframed has having different cultures is a totally positive development. Doing it by shitting on good elements already in place is the bad part. For example, drow have never been a monoculture, it was just that WotC was obsessed with painting them as one. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 13:38:46 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 13:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Replying to the OP, guess WotC and RAS have finally got what they wanted.
Now Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been retconned from the Realms, and RAS has the monopoly on the non-Lolth drow. Cool story.
Granted, it's actually good that different drow cultures are acknowledged. The scummy part is how RAS did that by shitting on the work of other authors.
Neither have been retconned from the realms,they are mentioned in Swordcoast Adventure's Guide and in Mordenkaiken's Tome of Foes 5e D&D source book and none Drizzt 5e Novels. Its late 3.5e into 4e that killed most of the none Lolthian Drow Gods, 5e brought them back and expended the Dark Seldarine in MTOFs.
This change is replacing their cultures with Aev and Lor-whatever. They're not technically retconned, but as I said, WotC is now free to ignore them forever and ever, effectively retconning them for all practical purposes. Especially when the Lor and Aev drow overlap with Eilistraee's culture. The Lorendrow's being in harmony with nature--as well as other races--and thriving in forests has always been part a thing the for Eilistraeans. Likewise, the secrecy of the Aev is something you can find in Eilistraean communities in high-threat areas, and the fact that they display traits that are the opposite of Lolth's society is characteristic of Eilistraeans in general.
We don't know if these communities have any Eilistraean connections or not, we have no idea what their religion is.
We know the Northern one uses a mix of illusion magic and ice magic, and the Southern one is heavily into nature magic (Druids are likely a major influence on this one), but otherwise we know next to nothing about these cities so far, aside from the fact that they did not participate in the descent of the Udadrow for some reason. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 13:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Replying to the OP, guess WotC and RAS have finally got what they wanted.
Now Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been retconned from the Realms, and RAS has the monopoly on the non-Lolth drow. Cool story.
Granted, it's actually good that different drow cultures are acknowledged. The scummy part is how RAS did that by shitting on the work of other authors.
Neither have been retconned from the realms,they are mentioned in Swordcoast Adventure's Guide and in Mordenkaiken's Tome of Foes 5e D&D source book and none Drizzt 5e Novels. Its late 3.5e into 4e that killed most of the none Lolthian Drow Gods, 5e brought them back and expended the Dark Seldarine in MTOFs.
This change is replacing their cultures with Aev and Lor-whatever. They're not technically retconned, but as I said, WotC is now free to ignore them forever and ever, effectively retconning them for all practical purposes. Especially when the Lor and Aev drow overlap with Eilistraee's culture. The Lorendrow's being in harmony with nature--as well as other races--and thriving in forests has always been part a thing the for Eilistraeans. Likewise, the secrecy of the Aev is something you can find in Eilistraean communities in high-threat areas, and the fact that they display traits that are the opposite of Lolth's society is characteristic of Eilistraeans in general.
We don't know if these communities have any Eilistraean connections or not, we have no idea what their religion is.
We know the Northern one uses a mix of illusion magic and ice magic, and the Southern one is heavily into nature magic (Druids are likely a major influence on this one), but otherwise we know next to nothing about these cities so far, aside from the fact that they did not participate in the descent of the Udadrow for some reason. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 13:55:46
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| Considering that RAS has often expressed his dislike for Eilistraee, that WotC is hellbent on making it clear that she's irrelevant, and that Vhaeraun has been retconned into Lolth's lapdog, I'd say that hoping that Eilistraee or Vhaeraun will be involved in any of this is wishful thinking at best. Yes, Eilistraee's an option in BG3, but even their distinction of drow races doesn't include her culture--it's just about the drow who turned to the Seldarine and the Lolth drow. This makes me think that either Aev and Lor will be atheists (as in they don't have ties to any deity--most likely outcome in RAS' stuff), or that they will worship the Seldarine. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 13:56:25 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 14:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Considering that RAS has often expressed his dislike for Eilistraee, that WotC is hellbent on making it clear that she's irrelevant, and that Vhaeraun has been retconned into Lolth's lapdog, I'd say that hoping that Eilistraee or Vhaeraun will be involved in any of this is wishful thinking at best. Yes, Eilistraee's an option in BG3, but even their distinction of drow races doesn't include her culture--it's just about the drow who turned to the Seldarine and the Lolth drow. This makes me think that either Aev and Lor will be atheists (as in they don't have ties to any deity--most likely outcome in RAS' stuff), or that they will worship the Seldarine.
Do you has a link to RAS bashing none Lolth Drow Gods? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 14:36:37
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| He didn't bash them, he said that he doesn't like them many times on the Forgotten Realms Archives group on Facebook. Once was in a WotSQ thread 2 or 3 years ago, I think? In any case, I don't have a link, so you're free to believe me or not. RAS' actions speak much louder than words, though--he carefully avoided ever mentioning any drow deity, save for the one time when he had Drizzt complain (the thing he does best, lol) that Eilistraeans were nowhere to be seen when the world was plunged in darkness and needed beacons of light. I believe this was in the beginning of the transition trilogy (Orc King? Or whatever). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 14:53:43
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My impression was that he doesn't seem to like *any* of the gods. I don't have access to whatever specific interview(s) Irennan is talking about, but I did read one that was posted on linked on reddit semi recently with some interesting quotes:
quote:
drittes is agnostic. Yeah.
He hopes and believes there's something better, but it doesn't matter because it's his
content. That matters. For this existence this experience in the first book of the companions, Codex driftsun cabri are arguing about orcs. It says how do we know they're all evil? You
people thought drower all evil we're not. And caddy Bree says my Leakey told me that. What
a driftsun myleik. He's wrong.
...
in the realms.
Are they gods? Or are they
superior beings that use humans as pawns for their own purposes? Yeah,
I mean, to me, it's like they're sending out travel brochures to the afterlife. Yeah, think about
it.
From https://theroarbots.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/RA-Salvatore-Interview-813-Transcript.pdf
Looking beyond how awful whatever software that was used to make that transcript, it seems that Salvatore personally doesn't think very highly of the deities of the realms and considers Drizzt agnostic now, which could be taken as an extension of his evolving personal tastes-which wouldn't surprise me some of the discussion around some of the aspects of his most recent book. And if Drizzt feels that way about Meilikki, I'd hesitate to consider what he thinks of Eilistraee and the others-he seems to go out of his way to avoid even mentioning them. I recall an interview at one point where he implied that Eilistraee was preachy or sanctimonious in a way he found distasteful, but I don't remember when or where it was, so don't quote me on that. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 15:07:49
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
I'm usually not the one to argue for RAS not messing things up, but not a chance.
He would make silly names that are not tongue twisters, something like "pickle-tickle". He would not put anything like "AE" there. 
He will, however, be used as a scapegoat for any drow nonsense. I expect a wave of sudden "Reee! RAS!!1", much like we have seen all the "Reee! Greenwood!". Shortly before 5.5 rolls in.
edit: changed "Elf 2.0" to "Elf Mk II" to comply with the accepted terminology.
The difference being, "Reee! Greenwood!" is completely nonsensical. Call me a stuffshirt purist or what have you, but people don't get to criticize the creator for his original vision (not that we'll ever be so fortunate as to see the creator's original vision in detail, I know), because, well, it's his baby, whether we like it or not. I wasn't thrilled with the Star Wars prequels, but hey...George Lucas made them, so I got to shut my mouth.
I'm not saying that RAS should bear the full brunt of the criticism, but WotC, sorry, isn't staffed with enough people that have the kind of creative talent required to structure the "drow narrative" - we saw that in 4th Edition when "Lolth is all there is"...yet in (I believe it was) the Neverwinter Campaign Guide, what do our eyes behold? A drow character background - at the very least, it was the right hand not talking to the left.
I am not really all that encouraged. There's frankly a lot less Greenwood than we need, and a lot more competing vision than we need. The two combined do not an encouraging future make.
- OMH |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 15:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
I recall an interview at one point where he implied that Eilistraee was preachy or sanctimonious in a way he found distasteful, but I don't remember when or where it was, so don't quote me on that.
Honestly, he's a joke. First, because Drizzt is one of the most sanctimonious and preachy characters out there. He's literally a mouthpiece for things that RAS considers to be good ideologies (to the point that RAS said he would have happily written a "The Tao of Drizzt" philosophy book or whatever). Drizzt's more of a bunch of moral virtues on a stick than a character. RAS doesn't get to call any character sanctimonious without being laughed at, really. And especially how he handled "redemption" for victims of abuse like Entreri. It was some godawful shit that needed to be erased from the book.
Second, RAS sounds like he never even bothered to read what Eilistraee is about (and it's most likely the case, since he admits that he doesn't know the lore). Helping the drow rediscover the beauty and joy in life, helping them forge their path and finding their happiness, while being careful to not force choices on them. Helping them heal from abuse, and being there for them even in the small things (like literally listening to how their day was). How does this even remotely come close to "preachy".
He likely finds Eilistraee distasteful just because he's pissed that someone else got to do non-Lolth drow. RAS has a history on shitting on the creation of others, this isn't exactly new stuff. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 15:25:59 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 15:30:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The sudden appearance of a thriving good drow civilization kind of undermines the kind of sacrifice and struggle drow face in turning away from evil. Let's face it, for all that WotC tries to sanitize and retcon stuff, drow ARE synonymous with evil, and it undermines people like Drizz't and Liriel who have to willingly, willfully turn their back to everything they know.
Man, come on, you can't be for real. Goodly drow civilizations have been a thing in FR since friggin' forever. We're talking 30+ years here. It's friggin' older than me!
Goodly drow civilizations were a thing, yes, but in modern years the drow are synonymous with bad news. 1991's Drow of the Underdak even establishes them as cannibals.
And, well, to be fair, drow being nutty predate Eilistraee. Kiaransalee wiped Threnody clean of life and became a goddess long before Araushnee's fall; the concept of the Dark Seldarine revolving around Lolth's family issues is a relatively new thing. I imagine Ghaundaur and Kiaransalee feel rather uncomfortable during meetings of the Dark Seldarine, considering family drama. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 21 May 2021 15:32:53 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 15:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
My impression was that he doesn't seem to like *any* of the gods. I don't have access to whatever specific interview(s) Irennan is talking about, but I did read one that was posted on linked on reddit semi recently with some interesting quotes:
quote:
drittes is agnostic. Yeah.
He hopes and believes there's something better, but it doesn't matter because it's his
content. That matters. For this existence this experience in the first book of the companions, Codex driftsun cabri are arguing about orcs. It says how do we know they're all evil? You
people thought drower all evil we're not. And caddy Bree says my Leakey told me that. What
a driftsun myleik. He's wrong.
...
in the realms.
Are they gods? Or are they
superior beings that use humans as pawns for their own purposes? Yeah,
I mean, to me, it's like they're sending out travel brochures to the afterlife. Yeah, think about
it.
From https://theroarbots.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/RA-Salvatore-Interview-813-Transcript.pdf
Looking beyond how awful whatever software that was used to make that transcript, it seems that Salvatore personally doesn't think very highly of the deities of the realms and considers Drizzt agnostic now, which could be taken as an extension of his evolving personal tastes-which wouldn't surprise me some of the discussion around some of the aspects of his most recent book. And if Drizzt feels that way about Meilikki, I'd hesitate to consider what he thinks of Eilistraee and the others-he seems to go out of his way to avoid even mentioning them. I recall an interview at one point where he implied that Eilistraee was preachy or sanctimonious in a way he found distasteful, but I don't remember when or where it was, so don't quote me on that.
Yeah I get that vibe too. I think he would have prefered the Gods to be more like Eberron's deities, as in being more like ideals that might not exist as actual entities at all. He wants to push FRs deities more not being actual Gods, but the wall of lore blocks him from it. The new Drow cultures could at least be partially agnostic.
I didn't like how he made Mielikki into a genocidal orc baby killing monster after he had her bring back the companions of the Hall.
I think the upcoming Trilogy is going to send shockwaves throughout FR, becausd he's also going after the Wall of the Faithless and False, which I don't mind.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 16:21:45
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I wouldn't give a flying if RAS did that to his own characters and stuff. But warping characters created by others speaks volumes of him--as a person. He is so eager to shit on the work of the people without whom he wouldn't even be relevant. He didn't create the drow, he didn't create the Realms. He just created Menzoberranzan (and that's really dated worldbuilding). Yet, he acts like he owns everything. That's a not what an artist even barely worthy of respect does. You know what a respectful artist does? Build his own stuff to have his own vision (and in RAS' case, his personal stuff didn't do really well, so I guess he needs to let his personla bias influence the stuff that he wrote in the world of others, right?)
As for the wall, I don't mind it being gone, and WotC has already retconned it. However, I will thoroughly dislike RAS using the Wall to make all FR gods look like crap, because that's what he's likely going to do. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 16:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Yeah I get that vibe too. I think he would have prefered the Gods to be more like Eberron's deities, as in being more like ideals that might not exist as actual entities at all. He wants to push FRs deities more not being actual Gods, but the wall of lore blocks him from it. The new Drow cultures could at least be partially agnostic.
I didn't like how he made Mielikki into a genocidal orc baby killing monster after he had her bring back the companions of the Hall.
I think the upcoming Trilogy is going to send shockwaves throughout FR, becausd he's also going after the Wall of the Faithless and False, which I don't mind.
I have mixed feelings about the Wall. I don't like it in that it's a horrible cosmic injustice hanging there in the background, but I do like it in that it sorta exists as this sort of 'greater scope' struggle happening on the periphery of the setting that's sorta connected to the blood War. I thought Neverwinter Nights 2 handled this well with Kaelyn the Dove and her crusade against the Wall. It gave the whole affair this sort of quiet tragedy air about it that I thought was pretty good.
I really don't think someone who seems to have some increasingly apparent IRL religious hangeups and seems all too willing to translate that into their writing should be the person first in line with a free reign to rewrite the mechanics of the realmsian deities and the afterlife though.
That prospect makes me quite uncomfortable. |
Edited by - TKU on 21 May 2021 16:34:30 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 16:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The sudden appearance of a thriving good drow civilization kind of undermines the kind of sacrifice and struggle drow face in turning away from evil. Let's face it, for all that WotC tries to sanitize and retcon stuff, drow ARE synonymous with evil, and it undermines people like Drizz't and Liriel who have to willingly, willfully turn their back to everything they know.
Man, come on, you can't be for real. Goodly drow civilizations have been a thing in FR since friggin' forever. We're talking 30+ years here. It's friggin' older than me!
Goodly drow civilizations were a thing, yes, but in modern years the drow are synonymous with bad news. 1991's Drow of the Underdak even establishes them as cannibals.
Not really, because--generally speaking--surfacers are far more likely to meet an Eilistraean or a Vhaeraunite than they are to meet a Lolthite. This was one of those parts where the devs wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to have Eilistraee&Vhaeraun be prevalent on the surface, and at the same time have people never meeting them and always meeting Lolthites. It's stupid. But I've already discussed this:
quote:
Eilistraee has been working to build friendships with other races for millennia, and--as I said--her culture predates Lolth's in the Realms. There were times in history when Eilistraee was greatly successful (see the alliance with Myth Drannor, and her spreading presence in the current post-Sundering era--Eilistraeans have a presence within Waterdeep, for example, sponsored by the Harpers), and given the nature of Eilistraean activies, if we exclude areas of intense Lolthite activity, surfacers are far more likely to meet an Eilistraean than a Lolthite.
Now, add the fact that sheer reproduction alone, with the blessing of a goddess that goes out of her way to make the drow thrive (and is even tied to motherhood and female fertility), should have been enough for the Eilistraeans to have comparable numbers to the population of drow who is portrayed as doing absolutely nothing except going on raids and backstabbing each other all day long, in an environment that wants to eat them, with actually productive activities being a footnote at best (though they are said to magically have super-advanced technology and magic, because Mary Sue race, of course). It's obvious that the developers didn't think things through, and just went with their own bias. The reason why Eilistraeans are said to be so few doesn't come from logic, but from the dudebros at WotC disliking the idea. That's it.
Now, you may argue that Vhaeraun makes all the work of Eilistraeans pointless, but here's the thing: Vhaeraunites don't randomly assault people. Their action is much slower and less overt. They try to build a presence too, to spread their roots, build networks etc... They aren't the kind of organization that would make a mess, because they *gasp* actually make sense as villains, and aren't shit writing like Lolth.
As for the cannibalism, the Lolthites are cannibals in that they sometimes eat their dead, because resources aren't exactly abundant underground (IIRC). It's quite gross, but not evil.
quote:
And, well, to be fair, drow being nutty predate Eilistraee. Kiaransalee wiped Threnody clean of life and became a goddess long before Araushnee's fall; the concept of the Dark Seldarine revolving around Lolth's family issues is a relatively new thing. I imagine Ghaundaur and Kiaransalee feel rather uncomfortable during meetings of the Dark Seldarine, considering family drama.
Sure, but in-universe, in FR, Eilistraee's (and Vhaeraun's) cultures were a thing before Lolth's. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 19:33:04
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| So drow are getting subraces now? How long until we get aquatic drow? Or winged drow? |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 19:54:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
So drow are getting subraces now? How long until we get aquatic drow? Or winged drow?
They're different cultures, not subraces.
Also, I don't see how this impacts existing lore in any significant way. What we've seen of the non-Lolth-worshipping drow so far suggests that they live in isolated cities a long way from civilization, so no one in Faerun is likely to even know they exist. That's not a retcon, in my book, it's an expansion -- no different from the introduction of Maztica, the Hordelands, or Karatur. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 20:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Now can we /please/ get Many-Arrows back?
Many-Arrows? The place RAS destroyed cuz "no orc can be good"? I don't think so. We will have the Udorcs, the Aeorcs and the Lorenorcs, instead  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 20:56:05
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Also, I don't see how this impacts existing lore in any significant way. What we've seen of the non-Lolth-worshipping drow so far suggests that they live in isolated cities a long way from civilization, so no one in Faerun is likely to even know they exist. That's not a retcon, in my book, it's an expansion -- no different from the introduction of Maztica, the Hordelands, or Karatur.
That would be true if RAS just said, "oh, look at these new drow cities". What I mind is this:
quote:
It was once widely believed that all drow elves lived belowground and worshipped Lolth. But truths that have long been buried are now beginning to come to light...
Directly from the site, in regards to the Aev and Lor cultures (emmphasis on the all mine). This is a flat retcon. Like what? Eilistraee's been a thing since forever, this is trying to make it look like the Aev and Lor are the sole non-Lolth surface drow cultures, and that Eilistraee either isn't even a thing, or is totally irrelevant. It's scummy because it's trying to make the work of another person (the creator of the setting itself), as well as a character dear to many, irrelevant. As well as replacing her with some new stuff clearly copied from her society.
And if you tell me that "well, it might just be that Eilistraee isn't involved in this", this new lore is clearly about reworking the drow from having only Lolth's society, to having more than one. Eilistraee's main thing is about providing a nurturing/empowering society and a brighter future to the drow. Not even mentioning her in something this big is clearly intentional, and points toward a will to make her fade into obscurity/replace her. I mean, they could have easily involved her in all this and still have those two drow cities. They wouldn't have lost anything. They could have her faith be relevant in those cities, or they could have at least mentioned her culture&enclaves alongside the Aev and Lor. They didn't, and that speaks volumes.
Moreover, let's not forget to mention that RAS is taking Eilistraee, acting like she isn't a thing, and acting like all she stands for is actually his creation rather than Ed Greenwood's, by dividing Eilistraee's society into 2 groups and slapping random names on them. Because Aev and Lor combined make Eilistraee's culture. The Lorendrow's being in harmony with nature, thriving in forests, using the generosity of the earth and stuff has always been part of Eilistraee's teachings (learning to hunt, gather, make the most out of the environment etc...), and the secrecy of the Aev is a prominent trait in Eilistraean communities in high-threat areas (for obvious reasons). Add the fact that Aev culture is literally said to be anti-Lolth, and you get the full picture.
Now, with RAS having often expressed his dislike of Eilistraee and other non-Lolth drow deities, and WotC also having a gross history with Eilistraee (having doggedly tried to downplay her and warped her role into her being just Lolth, but self-rightous, with the goal of making RAS' cast the only "real good drow"), this rises many red flags for me. They seem to be going to silently retcon the drow deities out of FR, by simply forgetting them, and replacing their role with RAS' stuff. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2021 21:05:23 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:06:35
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Good catch Irennan. I do get the feeling that they framing the idea of societies of non-Lolth worshipping drow as some sort of momentously big reveal to the Realms and D&D fans that WoTC is throwing the doors wide open for, and very pointedly avoiding the subject of the other members of the Dark Seldarine. If they were though, I would think they would have mentioned that. I really do not get the vibe that they are drawing heavily (if at all) from preexisting lore with this.
The Saekolath stuff sounds like it isn't even hidden or anything, like there always was this good drow city openly operating on the surface in South Faerun and we never heard about them because the Sword Coast is so faaaar away. Even have humans in the picture trading in the drow marketplace. Is it supposed to be in Chult or the Shining South? Because you'd think it'd have warranted a mention if that was the case. Certainly, South Faerun is not "Far from the Spider Queen and her terrors" because Southern Faerun's underdark is/was crawling with drow cities and outposts as much as the North. Almost like they are treating Menzoberranzean as the only drow city in Faerun. |
Edited by - TKU on 21 May 2021 22:07:35 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 22:06:57
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In the 2nd/3rd edition years it wasn't so bad that RAS ignored the other Dark Seldarine deities since there were other novels that dealt with those deities and could kind of fill in the gap so to speak. But yeah I can understand the distaste now that RAS has exclusive rights to make FR novels. He has a tendency to ignore aspects of lore and existence of many deities, to the point that his books often feel like their own universe rather than a cohesive part of the Forgotten Realms.
It would have been cool to have had another "War of the Spider Queen"-esque book series by other FR authors. Except one where they don't destroy any cities or gods. The first two books were quite good in my opinion at least.
And yes I have to say, it is worrying how little Ed is a part 5e Forgotten Realms. I feel like he had more input on 4e (which was not much) than he has now. |
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Upcoming changes to drow
