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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 18:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
To be honest, he was hired by Wotc to produce a specific kind of material. Delving too deep into lore, especially on a shared IP, is rarely asked from an amateur writer who is hired to write 3-4 pages of one-shot adventure. Once you deliver the text and got paid, the text in question is the property of WOTC. They can edit or remove any part they wish.
As someone who tries to write and publish RPG materials as a hobby, I certainly do not sympathize with a huge corporation against one passionate fan, but in the end, it is a business. You get hired to do something specific and you agree to their terms beforehand. I think the real problem was the WOTC's lack of communication with the writer to inform him of their editorial process.
Shoving in repeated uses of the descriptor 'primitive' to a person of colour's work where it wasn't previously included is, however, not a good look.
What does the skin color of the writer has to do with the editorial process? Can you add or remove certain words depending on the ethnicity of the writer?
Primitive means something "very basic or unsophisticated in terms of comfort, convenience, or efficiency"
I really dont understand the identity politics associated with this discussion. You write something and you accept that WOTC can do what they want with it. They can edit out stuff, add stuff or dont even publish it at all. If the writer is so sensitive that he doesnt even want to tolerate a word being added to his work then he should not be working with this kind of contracts as a freelancer in the first place.
Btw I think the book is kind of a mess too. First one is pretty railroady and Perkins' adventure is not even an adventure (it is a pretty great read though) and I havent read rest of the stuff from the freelancers yet.
I think with this kind of backlash coming from the freelancers and some parts of the community maybe it should be best that WOTC continues acting as a private company and stop trying to be an NGO on social problems because either they lack the depth (or willingness) to handle such issues and they cant get no love from some parts of the community no matter what they try to do. |
Edited by - farinal on 07 Apr 2021 18:31:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 19:06:12
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The issues are that ethnicity is really a big concern in the US, and saying someone or a culture is primitive has, historically, been an excuse for someone else to come in and impose their "superior" culture on native peoples, regardless of whether or not those native peoples want it (or just wiping out those native peoples altogether).
As for what WotC tries to do -- they're not really trying to do anything, and that's also part of the problem. They're saying, "Hey, we know this is a problem and we're going to do our best to address it," and then turning around and doing nothing at all, at best, or in cases like this one, not working with or even contacting their token PoC writer as they heavily revamp his work and use terms that he as a PoC person would not use.
If they'd given this one writer the same treatment they gave others working on the same project, then it would have been a different story altogether. Seriously, even a simple phone call on their part could have avoided a lot of this. "Hey, we like this material, but we really need to keep it focused on the adventure itself. Can you trim out some of this other material?"
It's not just an edited for-hire work, it's their whole corporate culture and behavior. |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2021 : 01:06:40
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Originally posted by deserk
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Originally posted by keftiu
Arguably /the/ reason people know PanzerLion is the work he did to showcase the rich history of Chult in order to supplement the mess that was Tomb of Annihilation, motivated largely by how that book depicted Chult as a place full of “primitive people” who couldn’t even build their own cities. Candlekeep Mysteries’ hiring process was driven by an explicit push for diversity; hiring a Black creative whose most notable work is trying to make your Africa-equivalent less insulting to black people (and more interesting for players!) only to toss out his lore-based work and double down on colonialist descriptors of an indigenous group he clearly took pains to humanize makes their views starkly clear.
Sure, it’s only two uses. How many times did they need to add a term he hates with racist connotations to his work before he’s allowed to be pissed, especially when getting away from that crap is his entire public brand? This is the second big name Black creator hired on from the community that they’ve treated poorly; how many times do they need to do it before we admit WotC has a race issue?
I'm not exactly eager to come to WotC's defence, but quite frankly I think the implication of a racist attitude from WotC to be quite hyperbolic and paranoid. That is to say, you are assuming QUITE a lot (and not a exactly generous assumption either) based on VERY little. They are in the business of making money, and that is ALL they care about at the end of the day; no matter what platitudes their designers might like to habitually spill out on Twitter on various political topics. But in the corporate world of America; they are hardly unique in that.
And Chult does have cities built by Chultans. And I seriously doubt that in any publication FR designers have described Chultans as being "primitive"; so try to bear in mind those are YOUR words and assumptions, not theirs. But yes, WotC did destroy most settlements in Chult save for Port Nyanzaru in the 4e and 5e era; as they did with countless other cities and lands throughout Faerun in the same period. And I seriously doubt it is out of some racist malice; but rather part of an overall strategy of theirs to dumb down the Realms; make it as easy and consumable for people who don't care about the Realms and as alienable and unappealing as possible to Realms fans of 1st/2nd/3rd edition era. And that means keeping the lore as simple and uncomplicated as possible.
It's also worth bearing in mind that Chult isn't the only African-based culture in Faerun. The Turami of Turmish are as well, and Turmish is an economic, intellectual and political powerhouse in the Sea of Fallen Stars, with many large metropolitan cities and prosperous settlements.
I love Turmish, it is the area of the realms I know the most about, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to say they are an African culture. Their culture is hard to map to any real-world equivalent. Some have said they are based on Turkish culture, but that also seems like a bit of a stretch. The parts of Turmish that are the most consistent from the early days are that Turmishans are: 1) tall and handsome, 2) wear ornately adorned plate/metal armor, and 3) the male merchants wear square beards. This doesn't strike me as particularly African. Would people even think of them as being African, if the Turami didn't have dark skin? What if pale-skinned folks from the Moonsea wore square beards and ornate plate armor? I doubt we would consider them as having an African-inspired culture. But I digress.
As to what happened to POC_gamer, I think it is a real shame. I have greatly enjoyed his blog for a long time now. I hope that Wizards get sufficient blowback from this so that they (and other RPG companies) are careful to avoid these colonialist tropes going forward. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2021 : 02:57:49
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by TheIriaeban
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Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Welp
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Scarlet_Marpenoth
Ok...
Goodness, that is....well, dumb. I COULD see something like a regular ship with an air bubble around it like a spelljammer (seajammer?) but an actual submarine? And one that looks like a ray? Wow.
And it has a combination lock, which I don't believe we've seen in the Realms before, and the combo is RAS's date of birth. (I looked it up, given how obvious an Easter egg it was). And Jarlaxle's pseudonym is also a reference to something from RW pop-culture, though I don't recall what it was, off the top of my head.
Doing something like having a regular ship with an air bubble would be doable; there was something like that in the Druidhome trilogy, IIRC.
5e hasnt' been averse to real world references. Take the Trinkets Table percentile die table, as well as the punny magical components to most cantrips. Lots of references there but most people don't notice it. I suppose that's the same for easter eggs. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2021 : 10:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
I love Turmish, it is the area of the realms I know the most about, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to say they are an African culture. Their culture is hard to map to any real-world equivalent. Some have said they are based on Turkish culture, but that also seems like a bit of a stretch. The parts of Turmish that are the most consistent from the early days are that Turmishans are: 1) tall and handsome, 2) wear ornately adorned plate/metal armor, and 3) the male merchants wear square beards. This doesn't strike me as particularly African. Would people even think of them as being African, if the Turami didn't have dark skin? What if pale-skinned folks from the Moonsea wore square beards and ornate plate armor? I doubt we would consider them as having an African-inspired culture. But I digress.
I don't disagree entirely with your reasoning, but Turami have been depicted with an African appearance in artwork, and their physical appearance as described in the sourcebooks matches that. But it's obvious that Ed tries to avoid any direct real world parallel with any of his original Faerunian cultures, so yes it isn't reminiscent of a particular African culture nor any other RW culture. But it's obviously important for players from various parts of the world to be able to play something they can identify with. |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2021 : 21:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
I love Turmish, it is the area of the realms I know the most about, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to say they are an African culture. Their culture is hard to map to any real-world equivalent. Some have said they are based on Turkish culture, but that also seems like a bit of a stretch. The parts of Turmish that are the most consistent from the early days are that Turmishans are: 1) tall and handsome, 2) wear ornately adorned plate/metal armor, and 3) the male merchants wear square beards. This doesn't strike me as particularly African. Would people even think of them as being African, if the Turami didn't have dark skin? What if pale-skinned folks from the Moonsea wore square beards and ornate plate armor? I doubt we would consider them as having an African-inspired culture. But I digress.
I don't disagree entirely with your reasoning, but Turami have been depicted with an African appearance in artwork, and their physical appearance as described in the sourcebooks matches that. But it's obvious that Ed tries to avoid any direct real world parallel with any of his original Faerunian cultures, so yes it isn't reminiscent of a particular African culture nor any other RW culture. But it's obviously important for players from various parts of the world to be able to play something they can identify with.
Yes, well said. You are right bout the art, in particular the FRCG-4e pictures of Turmishans. I think you could also say that Akabar Bel Akash also has perhaps an East African appearance, say Somalian, or perhaps Middle Eastern. On the other hand, the cover of The Reaver sometimes seems African to me, but other times not. It's hard to distinguish the culture I think from the fact that Antonio has brown skin. And then Reya Mantlemorn from Descent into Avernus doesn't seem to me to have African clothing or equipment at all. Nor does the Turmish shown in the relevant section in Warriors and Priests of the Realms. In short, the art on Turmish is all over the place, and you're right, some of it is clearly African-inspired.
And I don't want to overstate the case that there is no African influence in the lore on Turmish. One example of such influence is in the Wizards and Rogues of the Realms where Turmishan wizards are described as being covered in animal tattoos that glow when they cast spells. However there are few such African influences in Ed's Polyhedron articles or the Vilhon Reach sourcebook, if I recall correctly.
And I couldn't agree with you more that it's important for players from other parts of the world to be able to play with something they identify with. I think it is one of the huge strengths of the Forgotten Realms that it has so many different cultures and ethnicities in it. Now these were not always done well, and some lean heavily on harmful stereotypes, but it is a strength of the setting that it is so encompassing. |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
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Next WotC book: "Candlekeep Mysteries"
