| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 02:47:28
|
-The Sundering will always be -24,000 DR in my book.
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
I remember reading your Twitter exchange on Ashemmi and the responsibilities of shared properties. Well, I specifically remember someone careening into the thread just to tell you to f yourself. Really reinforced my positive view of the platform. 
-I went back to read said thread. Jesus, that was horrible. Why do so many people have difficulty with the concept of basic continuity? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 27 Mar 2021 02:53:58 |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 05:07:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I went back to read said thread. Jesus, that was horrible. Why do so many people have difficulty with the concept of basic continuity?
Because their vision is so much better! Who cares if something invalidates multiple novels and sourcebooks, so long as it's kewl?
I think that may be one of the biggest issues with the gaming industry: too many people are just too enamored of their own ideas to consider if those ideas really work. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 05:31:08
|
It's a universal problem. Sometimes people are so excited at their new ideas that they start writing stuff riding the wave of excitement, only to either remain empty-handed once their hype ends (because they don't feel like taking their idea to the end once the novelty fades), or to produce something that doesn't work.
I understand falling in love with your own idea and wanting to see it developed. It's very hard to let go of something you're really enamored with (and I found it difficult to do when creating my stuff). I can't understand being a professional and not having the competence to look at your idea, and evaluating whether you can build a good narrative on it or not, or whether it fits with the rest of your world. But you know, this is why D&D narrative isn't taken seriously, and only seen as good for popcorn stories, with lots of fights, cheap humor, and all that stuff. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Mar 2021 05:31:50 |
|
|
|
farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2021 : 23:54:50
|
To be honest, he was hired by Wotc to produce a specific kind of material. Delving too deep into lore, especially on a shared IP, is rarely asked from an amateur writer who is hired to write 3-4 pages of one-shot adventure. Once you deliver the text and got paid, the text in question is the property of WOTC. They can edit or remove any part they wish.
As someone who tries to write and publish RPG materials as a hobby, I certainly do not sympathize with a huge corporation against one passionate fan, but in the end, it is a business. You get hired to do something specific and you agree to their terms beforehand. I think the real problem was the WOTC's lack of communication with the writer to inform him of their editorial process. |
Edited by - farinal on 05 Apr 2021 00:05:38 |
|
|
|
Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 01:33:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
To be honest, he was hired by Wotc to produce a specific kind of material. Delving too deep into lore, especially on a shared IP, is rarely asked from an amateur writer who is hired to write 3-4 pages of one-shot adventure. Once you deliver the text and got paid, the text in question is the property of WOTC. They can edit or remove any part they wish.
As someone who tries to write and publish RPG materials as a hobby, I certainly do not sympathize with a huge corporation against one passionate fan, but in the end, it is a business. You get hired to do something specific and you agree to their terms beforehand. I think the real problem was the WOTC's lack of communication with the writer to inform him of their editorial process.
Shoving in repeated uses of the descriptor 'primitive' to a person of colour's work where it wasn't previously included is, however, not a good look. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 02:20:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
To be honest, he was hired by Wotc to produce a specific kind of material. Delving too deep into lore, especially on a shared IP, is rarely asked from an amateur writer who is hired to write 3-4 pages of one-shot adventure. Once you deliver the text and got paid, the text in question is the property of WOTC. They can edit or remove any part they wish.
As someone who tries to write and publish RPG materials as a hobby, I certainly do not sympathize with a huge corporation against one passionate fan, but in the end, it is a business. You get hired to do something specific and you agree to their terms beforehand. I think the real problem was the WOTC's lack of communication with the writer to inform him of their editorial process.
Shoving in repeated uses of the descriptor 'primitive' to a person of colour's work where it wasn't previously included is, however, not a good look.
And keeping him totally out of the loop, while involving other writers in changes to their submissions, is also not a good look. I could readily see the argument being made that they deliberately excluded him because they expected him to disagree. Not making that argument myself; I don't have enough info -- but I don't have enough info to say the argument is wrong, either. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 02:56:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And keeping him totally out of the loop, while involving other writers in changes to their submissions, is also not a good look. I could readily see the argument being made that they deliberately excluded him because they expected him to disagree. Not making that argument myself; I don't have enough info -- but I don't have enough info to say the argument is wrong, either.
I know you aren't making this argument, so this isn't addressed to you specifically. I'm just addressing that argument, because it seems to be very flawed to me.
What's the point of contacting a designer if potential disagreement is grounds to cut all communication?
There are 2 possible situations here.
1)If the designer has no input in the editing by contract (this seems the most likely possibility to me), then contacting them over edits only has the purpose of informing them about said edits, because they agreed to no input in the editing process. So, whether you expect the designer to disagree or not changes nothing for you, because you're just informing them of the edits that were made. Unless you mean that WotC feared that he'd campaign on twitter and gain enough traction to force them to revert the edits. But it's a stupid PR choice anyway, because they would be setting themselves up to look even worse and more closed to input by minorities. Also, if they can ignore the current disagreements, they can also ignore the dissent in the other situation, so I really don't see the point in this.
2)OTOH, if the contract allows the designer input, or if it doesn't specify anything, then not contacting them because of fear of disagreement is intellectually and morally dishonest, because the purpose of communication in this case is not just informing the designer, but hearing their input about the changes. If this is the case, WotC specifically sniped this person and cut him off for whatever reason, which makes them look even worse. Besides, really, assuming this hypothesis, what's the point of cooperation if you only want people who conform to your view? If you only hear people who agree with you, you have your head up your rectum, and do nothing but living and breathing your own flatulence. This makes WotC equally bad.
There's also the elephant in the room that has yet to be mentioned here. WotC has a history of discrimination against minority employees. This person, a PoC freelancer, was treated differently from other freelancers. Basically, this act feeds into their history of discriminating against minority employees, and suggests that not only they aren't keeping their promises, but that they haven't changed their IRL practices in the slightest, and continue maintaining racist practices within the company.
In short, no matter how we spin this, no matter what justification we try to conjure, WotC always comes out of this situation as an outright gross company. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2021 03:23:02 |
|
|
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 03:08:22
|
| Worth noting that other freelancers /were/ contacted about their edits, which really underscores what previously stories have clearly shown; black creatives are treated worse by WotC. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 03:21:19
|
| ^Yep, which is why all their talk about undoing racist tropes in D&D from last year ringed mighty hollow amidst all those PoC (former) employees coming out with their stories of discrimination. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2021 03:23:08 |
|
|
|
Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 06:54:45
|
All this makes me sad. Mostly because it feels like a lot of this would be a non-issue if they stuck closer to Ed's original vision. And slightly because I purchased it before reading this mess. I'm a fan of lore and stats, it sounds like the author was going to do something awesome that would add to the Realms, throw in some stats, and better represent PoC, wins across the board.
Is there less controversial content that is good? Or did I fork over money for a map of Candlekeep? |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
|
|
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 08:22:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
All this makes me sad. Mostly because it feels like a lot of this would be a non-issue if they stuck closer to Ed's original vision. And slightly because I purchased it before reading this mess. I'm a fan of lore and stats, it sounds like the author was going to do something awesome that would add to the Realms, throw in some stats, and better represent PoC, wins across the board.
Is there less controversial content that is good? Or did I fork over money for a map of Candlekeep?
Daniel Kwan’s adventure is apparently pretty solid.
I will say; if you’re looking for diverse d20 fantasy stuff, Pathfinder is doing a 300-pager on their setting’s West Africa equivalent with a majority-PoC team in June. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 12:32:50
|
Just wondering... do we even know that WotC knew the color of this person to discriminate against them? I say that because honestly.... 95% of YOU guys that I talk to alot, I couldn't tell you your skin color, and sometimes I even wonder if I'm correct on your gender. People assume all the time that I know things about them that I absolutely don't. I'm not saying that they did or they didn't know, but I can easily see with writer submission works that not everyone might be on the know of every author that comes through what their gender, skin color, or other factors might be.
To note, I'm not defending either the company OR the writer in this instance, because honestly I could not give a damn in either direction, as I haven't read the adventure. The only thing that might irritate me is what someone else just said... there was LORE and the LORE was removed. I've been mildly interested in seeing some adventure stuff involving frog folk (I was thinking about using them in Katashaka.... but I also keep getting sidetracked with work, so a lot of my stuff ends up in my head and not on paper), so if there could have been a good story and they snipped that piece... that part sucks. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 13:36:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering... do we even know that WotC knew the color of this person to discriminate against them? I say that because honestly.... 95% of YOU guys that I talk to alot, I couldn't tell you your skin color, and sometimes I even wonder if I'm correct on your gender. People assume all the time that I know things about them that I absolutely don't. I'm not saying that they did or they didn't know, but I can easily see with writer submission works that not everyone might be on the know of every author that comes through what their gender, skin color, or other factors might be.
Full disclosure: I'm not really a hamster, Giant Space or otherwise. I'm not blue, either.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 13:47:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering... do we even know that WotC knew the color of this person to discriminate against them?
Considering that this person uses the handle of PoCgamer (or something along those lines), and that--AFAIK--WotC's supposed intention in hiring them was part of their plan to "give PoC designers a voice" (or whatever PR nonsense they vomited), I'd say that yes, they likely knew. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2021 13:49:55 |
|
|
|
Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 14:40:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Full disclosure: I'm not really a hamster, Giant Space or otherwise. I'm not blue, either.
Mind blown. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
|
|
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2021 : 20:22:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note, I'm not defending either the company OR the writer in this instance, because honestly I could not give a damn in either direction, as I haven't read the adventure. The only thing that might irritate me is what someone else just said... there was LORE and the LORE was removed. I've been mildly interested in seeing some adventure stuff involving frog folk (I was thinking about using them in Katashaka.... but I also keep getting sidetracked with work, so a lot of my stuff ends up in my head and not on paper), so if there could have been a good story and they snipped that piece... that part sucks.
“I don’t care if there was racial discrimination, but I draw the line at lore being edited out!” is not a great look. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 06 Apr 2021 20:23:01 |
|
|
|
Rils
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 00:52:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Shoving in repeated uses of the descriptor 'primitive' to a person of colour's work where it wasn't previously included is, however, not a good look.
Having read the adventure through a few times now, I'm not sure I would use "repeatedly" to describe the two times the word 'primitive' shows up. For those who don't have the book yet, here's the references:
- Once to describe the temporary refugee-camp shelters of the trading post, following phrases like 'ramshackle shelters' and 'makeshift dwellings'. It's creating a mental image of the situation. "The place looks and feels more like a refugee encampment than a trading post. The primitive shelters are the new homes of the grippli who escaped from the evil yuan-ti..." (page 93)
- Once to describe the decorations at the village. "The simple domes of the grippli's residences and storage buildings are spread haphazardly around the marsh. Mud-brick with wicker roofs, they're modest affairs, primitively decorated with giant crab claws." (page 97)
Neither of these are applied directly to the grippli themselves, and are in context of describing the mud-brick thatched-roof villages created by a swamp-based amphibious low-tech tribal society. Applying the word "colonialist" to WotC's motivations seems a bit of a stretch, as nothing in here indicates that the grippli are portrayed as inferior to anyone else, or that the editor is trying to make a modern sociopolitical statement by their physical descriptions of a fantasy frog people's village.
It's totally understandable that the author is disappointed that changes were made to his adventure without the courtesy of running it by him - I would be too. But as an observer of the situation getting only one side of the story, I'd be cautious about applying any further nuance or bias beyond that. |
Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey. |
Edited by - Rils on 07 Apr 2021 00:57:26 |
|
|
|
PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 03:03:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rils
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Shoving in repeated uses of the descriptor 'primitive' to a person of colour's work where it wasn't previously included is, however, not a good look.
Having read the adventure through a few times now, I'm not sure I would use "repeatedly" to describe the two times the word 'primitive' shows up. For those who don't have the book yet, here's the references:
- Once to describe the temporary refugee-camp shelters of the trading post, following phrases like 'ramshackle shelters' and 'makeshift dwellings'. It's creating a mental image of the situation. "The place looks and feels more like a refugee encampment than a trading post. The primitive shelters are the new homes of the grippli who escaped from the evil yuan-ti..." (page 93)
- Once to describe the decorations at the village. "The simple domes of the grippli's residences and storage buildings are spread haphazardly around the marsh. Mud-brick with wicker roofs, they're modest affairs, primitively decorated with giant crab claws." (page 97)
Neither of these are applied directly to the grippli themselves, and are in context of describing the mud-brick thatched-roof villages created by a swamp-based amphibious low-tech tribal society. Applying the word "colonialist" to WotC's motivations seems a bit of a stretch, as nothing in here indicates that the grippli are portrayed as inferior to anyone else, or that the editor is trying to make a modern sociopolitical statement by their physical descriptions of a fantasy frog people's village.
It's totally understandable that the author is disappointed that changes were made to his adventure without the courtesy of running it by him - I would be too. But as an observer of the situation getting only one side of the story, I'd be cautious about applying any further nuance or bias beyond that.
Sucks when a couple of words sets a whole thread ablaze. Props to the checking. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 05:07:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rils
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Shoving in repeated uses of the descriptor 'primitive' to a person of colour's work where it wasn't previously included is, however, not a good look.
Having read the adventure through a few times now, I'm not sure I would use "repeatedly" to describe the two times the word 'primitive' shows up. For those who don't have the book yet, here's the references:
- Once to describe the temporary refugee-camp shelters of the trading post, following phrases like 'ramshackle shelters' and 'makeshift dwellings'. It's creating a mental image of the situation. "The place looks and feels more like a refugee encampment than a trading post. The primitive shelters are the new homes of the grippli who escaped from the evil yuan-ti..." (page 93)
- Once to describe the decorations at the village. "The simple domes of the grippli's residences and storage buildings are spread haphazardly around the marsh. Mud-brick with wicker roofs, they're modest affairs, primitively decorated with giant crab claws." (page 97)
Neither of these are applied directly to the grippli themselves, and are in context of describing the mud-brick thatched-roof villages created by a swamp-based amphibious low-tech tribal society. Applying the word "colonialist" to WotC's motivations seems a bit of a stretch, as nothing in here indicates that the grippli are portrayed as inferior to anyone else, or that the editor is trying to make a modern sociopolitical statement by their physical descriptions of a fantasy frog people's village.
It's totally understandable that the author is disappointed that changes were made to his adventure without the courtesy of running it by him - I would be too. But as an observer of the situation getting only one side of the story, I'd be cautious about applying any further nuance or bias beyond that.
Primitive is a worthless adjective if you want to create a mental image of something. The reason is that primitive is not a sensory adjective. The brain doesn't perceive things as "primitive", that's an interpretation that *some* might make a posteriori, mentally or out loud. It's basically an opinion that some may hold, interwoven in *their* perception, and does nothing to create a mental image. You could maybe use the word in a thought of a character, or in a filtered perception if you use a focused filter for a character who would find those buildings primitive (along specific sensory details that the character notices above others, and that actually create a mental image of what they're experiencing--otherwise you're making a mistake), but in a neutral voice? Yeah, worthless. And this isn't advanced stuff, this is writing 101. People whose whole job is writing and editing this stuff should know such a basic concept.
One could also argue that if you describe the art and architecture of a culture as primitive, you're describing two huge aspects of that culture, and therefore of the people who have that culture, as primitive.
But let's set that aside. Would have they called makeshift reufuges built by, say, elves or Waterdhavians fleeing a catastrophe "primitive?". Very likely not. This is what the author was trying to avoid, but that WotC disregarded. WotC was making (intentionally oir not) a commentary on the grippli, that went against the intention of the "PoC voice" (lol) that they hired.
Even ignoring the whole matter of using "primitive", let's not ignore that fact that this person was the only designer to be singled out not being involved in the process, and that it feeds into WotC's history of discrimination against PoC employees. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Apr 2021 05:17:24 |
|
|
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 05:23:38
|
Arguably /the/ reason people know PanzerLion is the work he did to showcase the rich history of Chult in order to supplement the mess that was Tomb of Annihilation, motivated largely by how that book depicted Chult as a place full of “primitive people” who couldn’t even build their own cities. Candlekeep Mysteries’ hiring process was driven by an explicit push for diversity; hiring a Black creative whose most notable work is trying to make your Africa-equivalent less insulting to black people (and more interesting for players!) only to toss out his lore-based work and double down on colonialist descriptors of an indigenous group he clearly took pains to humanize makes their views starkly clear.
Sure, it’s only two uses. How many times did they need to add a term he hates with racist connotations to his work before he’s allowed to be pissed, especially when getting away from that crap is his entire public brand? This is the second big name Black creator hired on from the community that they’ve treated poorly; how many times do they need to do it before we admit WotC has a race issue? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 07 Apr 2021 05:25:44 |
|
|
|
deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 07:52:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Arguably /the/ reason people know PanzerLion is the work he did to showcase the rich history of Chult in order to supplement the mess that was Tomb of Annihilation, motivated largely by how that book depicted Chult as a place full of “primitive people” who couldn’t even build their own cities. Candlekeep Mysteries’ hiring process was driven by an explicit push for diversity; hiring a Black creative whose most notable work is trying to make your Africa-equivalent less insulting to black people (and more interesting for players!) only to toss out his lore-based work and double down on colonialist descriptors of an indigenous group he clearly took pains to humanize makes their views starkly clear.
Sure, it’s only two uses. How many times did they need to add a term he hates with racist connotations to his work before he’s allowed to be pissed, especially when getting away from that crap is his entire public brand? This is the second big name Black creator hired on from the community that they’ve treated poorly; how many times do they need to do it before we admit WotC has a race issue?
I'm not exactly eager to come to WotC's defence, but quite frankly I think the implication of a racist attitude from WotC to be quite hyperbolic and paranoid. That is to say, you are assuming QUITE a lot (and not a exactly generous assumption either) based on VERY little. They are in the business of making money, and that is ALL they care about at the end of the day; no matter what platitudes their designers might like to habitually spill out on Twitter on various political topics. But in the corporate world of America; they are hardly unique in that.
And Chult does have cities built by Chultans. And I seriously doubt that in any publication FR designers have described Chultans as being "primitive"; so try to bear in mind those are YOUR words and assumptions, not theirs. But yes, WotC did destroy most settlements in Chult save for Port Nyanzaru in the 4e and 5e era; as they did with countless other cities and lands throughout Faerun in the same period. And I seriously doubt it is out of some racist malice; but rather part of an overall strategy of theirs to dumb down the Realms; make it as easy and consumable for people who don't care about the Realms and as alienable and unappealing as possible to Realms fans of 1st/2nd/3rd edition era. And that means keeping the lore as simple and uncomplicated as possible.
It's also worth bearing in mind that Chult isn't the only African-based culture in Faerun. The Turami of Turmish are as well, and Turmish is an economic, intellectual and political powerhouse in the Sea of Fallen Stars, with many large metropolitan cities and prosperous settlements. |
Edited by - deserk on 07 Apr 2021 08:17:12 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 08:03:00
|
If you believe WotC doesn't have a history of discriminating against PoC, check this article, which received support from a variety of other content creators, including former WotC staffers for MtG like Alexis Janson. Racism, as well as a plethora of other kinds of idiotic and counter productive mentalities, are a reality within a lot of corporates. Assuming that just because a corporate wants money all its people will act with only that goal in mind, without bias or personal opinion, is extremely naive. WotC's decisions in the past show this.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RDhVZ4x_Zf1abOpGfEGMI4xtYMA7AghCN5uWIfJRa6c/preview?pru=AAABcrssKnc*34ig3gk0A079zdYiOmJUVA |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Apr 2021 08:04:25 |
|
|
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 09:02:33
|
| The Turami have one paragraph of detail in 5e and a single page in 4e. You’re really gonna lean on them as your defense that WotC has done right by Black characters in the Realms? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 12:34:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note, I'm not defending either the company OR the writer in this instance, because honestly I could not give a damn in either direction, as I haven't read the adventure. The only thing that might irritate me is what someone else just said... there was LORE and the LORE was removed. I've been mildly interested in seeing some adventure stuff involving frog folk (I was thinking about using them in Katashaka.... but I also keep getting sidetracked with work, so a lot of my stuff ends up in my head and not on paper), so if there could have been a good story and they snipped that piece... that part sucks.
“I don’t care if there was racial discrimination, but I draw the line at lore being edited out!” is not a great look.
So, being indiscriminate and just caring about the final product and whether or not it serves my interest is now wrong..... I have to dig into every single person's race and personal values to determine whether they have been cheated in some way? So, please, provide me the report you have made on every single person at WotC and their moral and ethical viewpoints on things that worked on this product. Until you can show me that for EVERY SINGLE ONE, you're blowing hot air. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 15:33:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
And Chult does have cities built by Chultans. And I seriously doubt that in any publication FR designers have described Chultans as being "primitive"; so try to bear in mind those are YOUR words and assumptions, not theirs. But yes, WotC did destroy most settlements in Chult save for Port Nyanzaru in the 4e and 5e era; as they did with countless other cities and lands throughout Faerun in the same period. And I seriously doubt it is out of some racist malice; but rather part of an overall strategy of theirs to dumb down the Realms; make it as easy and consumable for people who don't care about the Realms and as alienable and unappealing as possible to Realms fans of 1st/2nd/3rd edition era. And that means keeping the lore as simple and uncomplicated as possible.
-Yeah, it seems like the crux of the issue is this. Don't want to insult the people that like 4e/5e so I'm not gonna say any of it is "dumbed down", but per the designer's own words, the thing was truncated and altered by WotC to be as generic as possible, as to be able to be plopped down in any setting. That design mentality really makes no sense to me. Anything can already be transplanted anywhere, as evidenced by the decades and decades of people already doing that regardless of the level of detail those things have. I just added the city of Huzuz into my homebrew world, for example. I kept what worked and changed what didn't with minimal thought and/or difficulty. The company 'pre-pruning' their products and robbing them of, in this case, what makes them unique and distinct and vibrant and is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I don't see any benefits. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Apr 2021 15:34:42 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 16:36:57
|
WotC doesn't want lore, because that could get in someone else's way... They want all of their writers/designers to be free to do whatever they want, because it's apparently just too hard to have to worry about lore, and because if you worry about lore, then you can't include kewl things like submarines named after real-world books and equipped with a combination lock that the combo is an Easter egg. Lurue forbid that anything should stand in the way of *that* kind of creative monstrosity disaster "vision"!
So they picked a setting full of continuity and lore so they could ignore all that and just bank on the name as they shove in anything that someone thinks of, regardless of origin or fit. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Apr 2021 16:38:09 |
|
|
|
TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 16:57:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC doesn't want lore, because that could get in someone else's way... They want all of their writers/designers to be free to do whatever they want, because it's apparently just too hard to have to worry about lore, and because if you worry about lore, then you can't include kewl things like submarines named after real-world books and equipped with a combination lock that the combo is an Easter egg. Lurue forbid that anything should stand in the way of *that* kind of creative monstrosity disaster "vision"!
So they picked a setting full of continuity and lore so they could ignore all that and just bank on the name as they shove in anything that someone thinks of, regardless of origin or fit.
Please tell me that you just made up that ridiculous example. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
|
|
TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2021 : 18:23:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Welp
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Scarlet_Marpenoth
Ok...
Goodness, that is....well, dumb. I COULD see something like a regular ship with an air bubble around it like a spelljammer (seajammer?) but an actual submarine? And one that looks like a ray? Wow.
And it has a combination lock, which I don't believe we've seen in the Realms before, and the combo is RAS's date of birth. (I looked it up, given how obvious an Easter egg it was). And Jarlaxle's pseudonym is also a reference to something from RW pop-culture, though I don't recall what it was, off the top of my head.
Doing something like having a regular ship with an air bubble would be doable; there was something like that in the Druidhome trilogy, IIRC. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Apr 2021 18:24:39 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Next WotC book: "Candlekeep Mysteries"
