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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 10:02:08
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Ah, I see. That makes sense. I've actually wondered more than once where I should post certain things... and ended up not posting at all out of fear of embarrassment.
No problem, btw. It didn't strike me as rude. I just had a feeling there was a why thete that I wasnt getting. Now I get it.
I do want the insigjts of the learned ones, but just as much, I want the opinions, ideas, and insights of other players/DMs.
Anyway. You have been great, cpthero2. No worries. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 17:17:12
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Seeker wildeman,
quote:
I've actually wondered more than once where I should post certain things... and ended up not posting at all out of fear of embarrassment.
No sweat man. There are very few people at the Keep that would treat you poorly overall, let alone call you out for something as simple as you didn't know a function of the site. I can appreciate your perspective though for sure.
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No problem, btw. It didn't strike me as rude. I just had a feeling there was a why thete that I wasnt getting. Now I get it.
Perfect. The main thing I wanted to ensure is that I didn't come across rude. I always endeavor to be congenial, though at the end of the day, we're all humans. Sometimes you have a crap day! ha
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I do want the insigjts of the learned ones, but just as much, I want the opinions, ideas, and insights of other players/DMs.
Well, certainly there are a great many of them here, and most assuredly those far beyond my level of knowledge, so you are in good hands here.
Most assuredly the knowledgeable and always genteel Great Reader Darden and Master Rupert, among others, are frequently available in the halls.
quote:
Anyway. You have been great, cpthero2. No worries.
Fantastic. I appreciate it.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 17:39:27
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I'm kind of all over the place right now as inspiration strikes and then revisions are made. I really want to put all of it together in a coherent outline format so it's a little easier to follow. I'm in the middle of a move this week, so I am a bit distracted as well.
So, here's a question for ya... have you ever wondered what happens at a place, like the "dungeon", after a band of adventures cleans it out? I mean, does some bad guy come back through and "restock" it, go hang out at the tavern, and wait for the next group of suckers/cough- I mean brave adventurers- cough come around. I've always wondered if you went back to some spot like the Sunless Citadel 100 plus years after the original adventure, what might be going on. And, might there have been things missed back then that could lead adventurers to something interesting.
It's kind of what I'm trying to do with this adventure... build on top of the lore and past events. I've been looking at the Baldman Games Adventure League adventures that are Moonshae specific. I'm seeing if there's things there I can build off of. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 18:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by wildeman
So, here's a question for ya... have you ever wondered what happens at a place, like the "dungeon", after a band of adventures cleans it out? I mean, does some bad guy come back through and "restock" it, go hang out at the tavern, and wait for the next group of suckers/cough- I mean brave adventurers- cough come around. I've always wondered if you went back to some spot like the Sunless Citadel 100 plus years after the original adventure, what might be going on. And, might there have been things missed back then that could lead adventurers to something interesting.
It depends. For Undermountain, Halaster actively keeps it restocked. For some random ruin out in the middle of nowhere? It may stay empty for a while, until some critter discovers it and moves in. The ruins that are near a road and serve as a bandit hideout? Within a year, you're going to have new bandits there, unless some conveniently nasty critter beats them to it.
And so on. It depends on where the dungeon is and why the former population was there.
Taking it all a step further, though... It might be a nice variation on things, to have the PCs enter a dungeon and find it empty except for some recent corpses of dungeon dwellers. I mean, the characters might not be happy about not getting anything, but it'd be a nice break from the norm. Besides, all they'd be encountering is scavengers and maybe the odd trap the previous party bypassed/missed. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Oct 2020 18:17:18 |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 18:36:16
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Wooly,
Sure, that would probably be the usual end result. I guess I'm looking to anchor to the world by building off of previous things... call them canon or lore. Plus, it sometimes starts to feel like you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lich in a tomb... and then you have a lich cat. Nobody wants that. So I would think that various locations would perpetually be reused as opposed to "new" dungeons cropping up continuously. And chances are, not everything about a location was discovered by previous groups of adventurers. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 19:01:04
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Seeker wildeman,
I love your line of questioning. What you're effectively talking about is applying the concept of a sandbox to your campaign. It can be a rabbit hole, but if done correctly, you can create a great campaign. It just requires the right structure, and considering certain disciplines when you are building those campaigns, i.e., philosophy, history, government, culture, and more.
If you look at old campaigns/modules from the 70's and 80's for example, you'll notice that there are a great many "ecologically inappropriate" builds, haha. They were designed for adventure, and certainly not designed for the eye of scrutiny relative to things such as function for example. The room that contains the (16) headed pyro-hydra sure was perfectly suited for that massive melee. It's almost like the room was designed for it...
Your question about what was going on 100 years before is perfectly apropos to that example I just gave. Sure, 'x' place is now a "dungeon" (whatever that means, Leira), but what was it all about back in the day? They are simple, and seemingly unnecessary questions for a campaign predicated upon combat; however, what if you want your campaign to have a sharp RP element to it, that doesn't require but the faintest of suspension of disbelief to play? That good sir takes a lot of prep. For example...
My sandbox campaigns take about (1) year to design (I am constantly creating new ones to have a lot of fresh material in the event of an early campaign ending). They usually encompass a 2,000,000 square mile area region. I then take a meta theme, and apply 3-5 level 1-20 campaigns to them by altering and associating their individual themes to the meta theme. Using a Venn diagram like model, I place those 3 - 5 major theme campaign modules over that 2,000,000 square mile area. I then put in another 2-3 mid-level campaign modules per major theme campaign module, and fill in the gaps with my own material.
I also don't scale the campaign, so you could walk into a CR28 dragon's cave, it's true. Sometimes life sucks. I vet my players by interviewing them when new people join my campaign (though, I've had consistent campaigns for (15) years with only the occasional drop out from moving, etc.). It takes work, but if you want that kind of immersion that it sounds like you are working for, I have found this way to be a really great way.
So, I know that went beyond your initial point, but it seemed to be trending in that way.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 19:15:13
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cptheo2,
That's about spot on. The sandbox is what I am after... in that I want the players to have the sense that their choices matter. I also like the sense of feeling attached to the world by being anchored to things that are possibly very commonly known. Historical events and locations with a past. It can sometimes be tricky to make things jive, but I think the sense of accomplishment is much richer and rewarding. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 22:24:38
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Seeker wildeman,
Well, I think you're on the right track. You're asking the right questions, and thinking outside the box. It's tough. Part of this, depending on your style as a DM is to choose disciplines that affect your storytelling. Though I do economic consulting as a living, and am a retired Infantryman from the U.S. Army, I've chosen to devote a significant amount of time over the years to studying philosophy, and specifically the fields of ethics and logic. So, that affects my storytelling significantly. I am sure if a DM had a strong background in psychology, anthropology, mechanical engineering, they would have a different contextual storytelling outlook and that would likely come down channel to develop in that unique way out to the players.
Again, it's just my perspective. It's a very inductive process, and so for people that like to define things a lot (I do, I have a very math intensive job) it takes some getting use too. However, you can go too far with the creativity and have such an absence of structure that you don't even know what is going on. So, it takes a balance, and that means, jump in and get wet at the deep end of the pool. There are some people down there waiting to help you catch you breath from time to time if need be.
If you are really interested in sandbox campaigns, I highly encourage you to jump on over to a scroll I created about that topic, and go crazy with your questions, and exploring! :) I may not have all of the answers, but I sure will try my best to help anyway I can!
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23305&SearchTerms=sandbox
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 22:44:42
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Very interesting post. Yeah, I certainly agree with that... ones interests influence style. I think the hard thing for me sometimes is not letting other peoples style unduly influence mine. I'm a creative... art major... so I tend to think in terms of images... encounters as scenes. I also like to laugh and don't mind humor in my adventures, but I enjoy them being dark as well.
The thing I really enjoy about D&D is the collaborative storytelling experience. So, I think this is what I'm enjoying about these discussions, the collaborative effort going into it.
I will go check out your scroll.
Btw, have you ever written out any of your adventures like in a formal way that you might see on one of the self publishing pdf sites? This seems to be an issue for me... the technical writing part of it. I keep looking for some sort of template to follow that gives a good step by step methodology. Have you seen anything like this? |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 23:39:19
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Seeker wildeman,
quote:
Very interesting post. Yeah, I certainly agree with that... ones interests influence style.
The reason I do that is because at the end of the day, we're all humans. We are a summation of our experiences to this point in time. I can't change that. I can try to alter how I think by reading great philosophical treatise, debates, articles, etc. (among other disciplines) and have succeeded at changing my outlooks on things over the years for what I feel is the better (thank god); however, fighting our inherent nature tooth and nail just loses you a tooth, and a nail.
Collaboration is a good way to test things, because it is less threatening over all. It isn't the fight one on one that is so primal. I boxed for three years in the Army in my Division, and I know about fighting. That primal fight is great, exhilarating, and tests your mettle. While it provides a growth of a certain kind, it hits a plateau pretty quick in my opinion. In economic terms, it hits it ceiling, or upper bound, swiftly. So, I would say, don't fight your proclivity to use your experiences to inform your style and game play. Rather, embrace, but realize it's time to add a second story, or a garage. Add to it, don't destroy it and rebuild. You can't destroy yourself and come back. Resurrection spells are not real. ;)
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I think the hard thing for me sometimes is not letting other peoples style unduly influence mine.
I can appreciate that, but I haven't lived it much. I am really type A. I have had to learn to collaborate more, not less. You likely need to add a garage to the house that allows you to more aggressively assert, while in a socially appropriate way. It's a skill. If you do it, you'll screw it up, but we all do. I mean, at the end of the day again, we're all just fallible people. :)
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I'm a creative... art major... so I tend to think in terms of images... encounters as scenes. I also like to laugh and don't mind humor in my adventures, but I enjoy them being dark as well.
I wish I had more of that art and less of my math at times, until I need the math, then I am happy about it. haha That's why I say: just add a garage or second floor. It takes time, it's tough, but you'll get there. Since you're so good at collaborating too, you'll likely help those other folk you spend time with grow at the same time, and experience collaborative growth. That's a win for sure!
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The thing I really enjoy about D&D is the collaborative storytelling experience. So, I think this is what I'm enjoying about these discussions, the collaborative effort going into it.
I get that. Experiences are fun. Just remember, structure is needed, so start today, don't wait. Even if you "screw up" on something (whatever that means in creativity), just retool it a bit, it will work out in the end. I've never made an omelet with uncracked eggs, at least not yet.
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I will go check out your scroll.
Looking forward to the discourse there.
quote:
Btw, have you ever written out any of your adventures like in a formal way that you might see on one of the self publishing pdf sites? This seems to be an issue for me... the technical writing part of it. I keep looking for some sort of template to follow that gives a good step by step methodology. Have you seen anything like this?
Ironically, I haven't. I had two friends of mine tell me I should, but I have built my campaigns inductively with structure, not as constrained and with harder limits with "typical" modules/campaigns. One of those friends has an MFA: Creative Writing, and he is an epic writer, so I am seriously considering the idea of putting those campaigns into a module format. However, they would truly be monstrous, and being a businessman, I wonder how many people would want a 4 million square mile sandbox campaign that ultimately includes about (35) story arcs of major, moderate, and minor inclusion to read? lol
God, the idea even seems painful to me a bit! haha
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 00:04:38
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Structure... I would be interested in reading more about what you mean by this. If you dont mind, please elaborate.
I guess the huge sandbox would depend a lot on what kind of following you developed. People like matt Mercer have a fan base so they scarf it up. M.t. black is one of my favorites. He has a good fan base. I'm sure people would be interested in his.
You would probably need to release some smaller stand alone insertable adventures then build onto them and if/as your fan base developed you could expand to larger projects.
It's weird, I have terrible self esteem issues, but I tend to be very gun ho. I'm the jump in with feet type.
I'm just a very group think person... which is funny since I'm very much an omega type personality. I tend to be full of contradictions. Lol.
Well, I learned a long time ago that the only true failure is the failure to try
Sometimes you have to fail to learn. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 07:04:26
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Seeker wildeman,
quote:
Structure... I would be interested in reading more about what you mean by this. If you dont mind, please elaborate.
Obviously that is an enormous subject, but the best thing I can point to is what I did earlier, and what is in the sandbox scroll. How to start with developing the sandbox campaign, structurally. How many major level 1 - 20 campaigns? What are the themes of them? How will you have to change them to adapt to the overarching meta-theme? How many mid-level campaign modules are needed per major module? So on, and so forth.
You're of course not trying to railroad the group. You are trying to provide a well understood, interactable area (roughly 4 million square miles) so that when they go somewhere, there is material for them to interact with. Now, you are likely wondering, "But, if I don't put something in front of them, what will they do?" A great question if you were wondering that.
Character bio's and psyche profiles can help you as a DM, sit down before the campaign begins and figure this persons motivations out. Is he an archaeologist? Is he a hired hand that does caravan work? Is he the local harbormaster's assistant? When you figure out the person like you would a person in real life, you can start to decide what the characters motivations are for being in a place, doing that thing, and not have it break immersion. I mean, at the end of the day, these character's have hopes and dreams. Work with players to ensure that their characters are not just meat churning tools.
quote:
I guess the huge sandbox would depend a lot on what kind of following you developed. People like matt Mercer have a fan base so they scarf it up. M.t. black is one of my favorites. He has a good fan base. I'm sure people would be interested in his.
Sure, that makes sense. We'll just have to see how goes. I've never really put much thought into doing anything at all, besides just nerding out when not working. ;) haha
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You would probably need to release some smaller stand alone insertable adventures then build onto them and if/as your fan base developed you could expand to larger projects.
A great point for sure, and I agree. Something to look into.
quote:
It's weird, I have terrible self esteem issues, but I tend to be very gun ho. I'm the jump in with feet type. I'm just a very group think person... which is funny since I'm very much an omega type personality. I tend to be full of contradictions. Lol. Well, I learned a long time ago that the only true failure is the failure to try. Sometimes you have to fail to learn.
Well, you have the right attitude. You're jumping in on here to begin with and are willing to learn. You are right about failing to try. Never lose your opportunity to try things out. We only get one shot at this life thing. ;)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 11:57:16
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Ah, I see. That makes sense now. I'll dig into your scroll.
Yeah, I've always had an adventuris nature, even though I sometimes have trouble being confident.
Btw, my dad was career army, so I grew up in that environment. Organization and "structure" is a way of life... lol.
Well, you've given me some good, important, and useful things to consider in relation to the sandbox idea. Now I need to chew on these a bit. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 15:19:48
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Seeker wildeman,
quote:
Yeah, I've always had an adventuris nature, even though I sometimes have trouble being confident.
Well, this can be a good way to build confidence. Jump in, be ok with making mistakes, and explore. Your skillset will develop over time. It's messy, but you like art, so you get mess. ;)
quote:
Btw, my dad was career army, so I grew up in that environment. Organization and "structure" is a way of life... lol.
Ah, very nice. Yes, it is definitely all about structure. I loved the Infantryman's life, but you have to retire some time. haha It is a young man's game for the most part.
quote:
Well, you've given me some good, important, and useful things to consider in relation to the sandbox idea. Now I need to chew on these a bit.
Very cool. I saw you commented over there in the sandbox scroll. Ask any and all questions. I'm happy to help!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 16:14:03
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I think one of the biggest issues I have with this entire process is trying to figure out the template... putting my adventure into a module format. I'm not sure why, but I get very discombobulated with trying to figure out how to dissect my adventure. cpthero2, we already talked about this... maybe someone else will have a suggestion.
If I wanted to get other feedback on that matter, where else would suggest that I post that might get the attention of those with that kind of info? |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 18:05:02
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Seeker wildeman,
I think I have a better idea here. I think I didn't explain part of what I was putting out to you well. In fact, I know I didn't based on your response.
quote:
I think one of the biggest issues I have with this entire process is trying to figure out the template... putting my adventure into a module format.
I begin by creating a meta-theme, for example: an elder evil named Atropus is going to slam into the world and annihilate it. I then check out multiple level 1-20 campaign modules, and see if the themes there could be slightly altered to sort of align with the meta-theme, without having to redesign the entire module. The "major" level 1-20 campaign modules I use are third party campaign modules from Necromancer Games, or Frog God games, for example. So, I may use A Lamentation of Thieves, The Vault of Larin Karr, and The Tomb of Absythor as the major campaign modules that I lay over the top of the 4 million square miles. Once I have selected them, I make the theme adjustments to tie-in with the meta-theme, and start working elements of the modules into their respective regions, i.e. Cormyr, The Pirate Isles, and Turmish, let's say (not saying that those are the nations or places I would pick, just giving random examples).
I then select some mid-level campaign modules that may be, for example, be levels 6-12, and apply 2-3 of those to the area and development of one of the major campaign modules, for example, Lamentation of Thieves.
By the time you are done reading all of the modules, reworking/retooling any of the themes, plots, developments, etc., you should have read approximately (9) - (12) modules. At that point, you've got your primary and secondary material that helps with level advancement and the significant story development. However, there are still "filler" spots, in between.
So, if hypothetically, you had A Lamentation of Thieves in the Pirate Isles region, and (3) mid-level modules reinforcing that module so there is a lot of storyline options for that area to avoid railroading the characters down one path, there are still going to be little areas in between that need work, such as towns, villages, hamlets, and thorps. Developing relationship based material is very important. I had a campaign based partially in Tethyr that saw entire sessions of (8) hours of game time having the characters RP'ing helping people around town, chatting around the hearth in the local pub, and essentially building relationships. Building those relationships build a real, tangible sense of bond between the PC's and those NPC's. That in turn helped the PC's want to help if needed when issues arose, as they had come to care about those NPC's. Instead of just looking at it for more gold, they wanted to help people as many of us want to help people in the real world.
Does that help steer things back to making a little more sense by chance? If not, ask away more. :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 19:09:24
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quote:
I begin by creating a meta-theme, for example: an elder evil named Atropus is going to slam into the world and annihilate it. I then check out multiple level 1-20 campaign modules, and see if the themes there could be slightly altered to sort of align with the meta-theme, without having to redesign the entire module. The "major" level 1-20 campaign modules I use are third party campaign modules from Necromancer Games, or Frog God games, for example. So, I may use A Lamentation of Thieves, The Vault of Larin Karr, and The Tomb of Absythor as the major campaign modules that I lay over the top of the 4 million square miles. Once I have selected them, I make the theme adjustments to tie-in with the meta-theme, and start working elements of the modules into their respective regions, i.e. Cormyr, The Pirate Isles, and Turmish, let's say (not saying that those are the nations or places I would pick, just giving random examples).
Ah, I see now. Ok, yeah, I wasn't understanding what you meant. I do something similar... building off of older adventures and bits of lore. I may read an adventure or a seed in another book like a Volo's Guide to Such and Such, and get inspired.
So not exactly the same as what you are saying, but similar. So you aren't reinventing the wheel... just making small adjustments. So no need for a template since everything is more or less in it's place. |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 19:22:42
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quote:
Does that help steer things back to making a little more sense by chance? If not, ask away more. :)
That does help clarify what you were saying and the methodology you were trying to explain.
I just need to keep plugging away at this. It's getting there. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2020 : 01:48:27
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Seeker wildeman,
quote:
Ah, I see now. Ok, yeah, I wasn't understanding what you meant. I do something similar... building off of older adventures and bits of lore. I may read an adventure or a seed in another book like a Volo's Guide to Such and Such, and get inspired.
No sweat. I'm glad I thought about it for a minute there. I highly recommend Necromancer Games (OOP) and Frog God Games. Ruthlessly difficult, which is great for sandbox, non-scaled campaigns.
quote:
So not exactly the same as what you are saying, but similar. So you aren't reinventing the wheel... just making small adjustments. So no need for a template since everything is more or less in it's place.
Hey, we all have our flavor! :) Exactly, I am definitely not reinventing the wheel. I've yet to create an entire campaign from scratch as frankly, I have better things to go. lol I've got a wife, a horde of children, my job, and then things I try to cram into the spaces like gaming, breathing, eating, haha. ;)
Again though, let me know if you have any other questions at all. I love these kinds of conversations.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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wildeman
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2020 : 02:58:33
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Oh c'mon cpthero2, who needs to breath and eat...
No, seriously, I would do exactly like you are doing if I just was wanting to run campaigns for my friends. But having something that I created/helped create that is then released into the wild for others to hopefully enjoy... that's kind of a personal life goal of mine. So it can be inspired and influenced and even built onto what has come before, but it has to be my own for obvious reasons.
Will do. I'm sure I will be looking for the input of others that feel inclined to throw in their opinions. I hope more speak up. I love hearing what others players think would be a cool event or even pointing out a problem with something that I've overlooked.
Anyway. As always, thank you for your assistance. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2020 : 06:06:22
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Seeker wildeman,
quote:
Oh c'mon cpthero2, who needs to breath and eat...
I know. I tried praying to all sorts of gods to get the high level abilities from the Vow of Poverty to stop that pesky eating and drinking thing, but they just haven't budged yet. ;)
quote:
No, seriously, I would do exactly like you are doing if I just was wanting to run campaigns for my friends.
It is a lot of fun and strikes the balance on time commitment. Writing out a sandbox would be so hard. Plus, I am not sure enough people would enjoy my style of doing it. haha
quote:
But having something that I created/helped create that is then released into the wild for others to hopefully enjoy... that's kind of a personal life goal of mine. So it can be inspired and influenced and even built onto what has come before, but it has to be my own for obvious reasons.
I can certainly appreciate that. I am currently, slowly but surely, working on some material that I am going to publish but those materials are going to be formal treatise on things in the Realms. Not sure when it will be done though.
quote:
Anyway. As always, thank you for your assistance.
My pleasure!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Heralds, Falconfree and Red Dragon
