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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 22:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
My one quibble with Incantatrix for any of the Sisters is the Focused Studies class feature. I do not see the Sisters, especially the Simbul, giving up any schools of spells. If by the power of the Hand Wave you rule the Chosen of Mystra are exempt from this restriction, then by all means Incantatrix works.
My rough build for the Simbul: Sorcerer 13/Wizard 6/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 2 (archmage on wizard to get spells as 19th level wizard by the way).
If you include the Incantatrix, change sorcerer 13 to Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 7.
I strongly recommend dumping the Epic Spellcasting feat that was included in her Epic Level Handbook stats.
Ohhh, that's a damn good point, and one I hadn't noticed. I'll have to relook at things then for some other prestige class, but the idea of sticking straight class doesn't fit to me.
As a suggestion, the known sorcerer spells exclude one school (necromancy?) after level 3. Dump Epic Spellcasting epic feat or Spell Reprieve (epic version homebrew) that eliminates the school restriction. Also recommend dumping summon familiar from sorcerer and wizard levels for minor "oomph!"
Just to temporarily throw out some ideas that might fit for the Simbul to replace the 10 levels of Incantatrix.
Argent Savant - class giving bonus to force effects. Pretty easy to get into. You lose 1 level of casting.
Abjurant Champion - IF in her build we actually had her take a level in ANY class that gave her a single martial weapon, she could go into this. I only mention it because the ideas behind it very much fit her (i.e. casting abjurations freely, having her abjurations be stronger).
In fact, if we replaced the ten levels of incantatrix with these two classes, they kind of mesh well with any caster that uses shield spells, mage armor type effects, and magic missile type effects. I could see THAT fitting the Simbul.
In THAT particular vein, look at this from seven sisters towards justifying a single level of fighter in her build (or maybe something unusual like hexblade, spellthief, swordsage from Tome of Battle, etc...). Or maybe Duskblade... 2 levels gets combat casting...
[/i]Although the influences of Mystra, Azuth, Elminster, and her subjects have sent her drifting toward good aims and deeds, the Simbul is still a chaotic neutral human female 30th-level mage of STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 15, CHA 17. She has 82 hp, and her usual AC is -6. Over the years, she has done enough adventuring without magic that she can also claim to be a 6th-level fighter.[/i]
Or actually, something just occurred to me... what if INSTEAD of sorcerer, what if she had warmage as her second class? It seems to totally fit her concept of hurling invocations. It also works with ultimate magus. If she had it, then she would qualify for abjurant champion. Also, rather than having a limited selection of spells as a sorceror, she'd have a large number of spells to choose from at each level... thus her wizard levels would be for her "other" types of spells and her warmage levels would be extra blast attacks.
2 duskblade/3 wizard/1 warmage/10 ultimate magus/5 abjurant champion/4 archmage/1 nightmare spinner/1 Loremaster/5 argent savant
Lessee, that puts caster levels at
wizard 20th
warmage 13th
duskblade 3rd
The gains of this build would be a better BAB when she hits epic levels, which might matter for spell effects where she has to hit something. Not a major thing. The other gains are the improvements on her abjurations and a focus on force effects.
I'm really enjoying this discussion, and I feel like we're getting some better ways to really portray what the "characters" of the sisters are like more. I could see it where "early on" in her career the Simbul may have been more of a fighter mage, wearing armor, wielding a weapon as a backup, etc... and with time she's become more of a pure wizard. But, as she became more of a pure wizard, she had to drop the armor, etc... Alternatively a single level in there somewhere might have been also spent as a spellsword as well, and so maybe the Simbul wears some light armor underneath the robes (like a mithril shirt... how many people didn't know that the hobbit was wearing a mithril shirt, etc... ). I personally can see her valuing the ability to wear armor, if only because you can place numerous defenses on it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Sep 2020 23:15:20 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 06:45:22
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The problem now is that if you throw her up against Szass, he's going to brutally murder her.
I will still suggest dropping nightmare spinner as the class thematically doesn't fit her, and if you need extra spell slots, you could just make it a baseline ability granted to her as a daughter of the goddess of magic.
Alternatively, mix pathfinder in and turn her into an arcane bloodline sorcerer with the human favored class benefits, which grants her a bonus spell slot of the highest spell level she can cast -1. By RAW, that grants her an extra 9th level spell slot when she takes her first Improved Spell Capacity. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 11:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The problem now is that if you throw her up against Szass, he's going to brutally murder her.
I will still suggest dropping nightmare spinner as the class thematically doesn't fit her, and if you need extra spell slots, you could just make it a baseline ability granted to her as a daughter of the goddess of magic.
Alternatively, mix pathfinder in and turn her into an arcane bloodline sorcerer with the human favored class benefits, which grants her a bonus spell slot of the highest spell level she can cast -1. By RAW, that grants her an extra 9th level spell slot when she takes her first Improved Spell Capacity.
I was curious to see what we could build legally before making Mary Sue special rules for them. That's not to say that that afterwards such couldn't be added as well for a chosen template or somesuch.
But I'm curious, why do you think he would brutalize her? Generally, from what I saw of 3.5e, past 20th level, caster level generally had little effect. Also, on the nightmare spinner, again, this build is about just building a character that's kind of fitting to her persona. Her persona to me is pure individual power gamer. What class or prestige class would you take instead of that particular prestige class for a level? No special rules or alternate game system, just knowing that you have another level to take, what would you put it in that would net her more personal power than a level in that class? I mean, if anything, I'd say build out an epic progression for ultimate magi until she has both classes at level 20, but again, I was looking to build with the rules as written. Please take this in the vein intended, I'm looking for ideas, and I'm not married to these, but I'm not hearing the other options that are already represented in 3.5e. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 12:05:39
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Other than buff spells and spell durations, there are spells that scale off caster level post-20, like maw of chaos, not to mention epic spellcasting. The Simbul's problem is that Szass will trivially win caster level checks against her, his buffs will last longer, and his epic spells will be better. It also means that she's a worse spellcaster than most of the Zulkirs.
Though it would make things interesting if the Chosen simply didn't have the raw power of other high level mages; now the Simbul has a vested interest in keep Thay divided and Tam's attentions on his city, because she's well aware that the instant the Zulkirs get their shit together, Aglarond is in deep doodoo.
Also, arcane lord. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 14 Sep 2020 12:09:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 15:13:30
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So, so far I feel like we've had some good insights that have changed the builds on several of these guys. So far, we've talked at length about Dove, Alustriel, Storm and the Simbul. That leaves Sylune and Laeral and Quilue. I personally don't feel like I "know" Quilue enough to do her justice as much as other people would, so I default to the earlier described version. Sylune I'd like to think about a bit. That brings us to Laeral, who honestly feels the most "simple wizard who focuses on people, politics, and rumormongering" to me than any of the others. She's not like the Simbul who is ALL ABOUT personal power. She's also not like Alustriel who is so sweeteningly giving and loving.
So, with that in mind, what could we do with Laeral? I don't see her statted out in the Epic Level Handbook. I see this in the FRCS though Laeral Silverhand (CG female human Wiz19/Sor4/Rgr7. This puts her character level in 3e at 30th. From the 2e Seven Sisters, we have this: Laeral is a chaotic good human female 25th-level mage who is very close to becoming 26th level. From earlier days and deeds, she can also claim to be a 9th-level ranger. She has STR 13, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 17, and 86 hp, and her usual AC is -1.
So, based on THIS information, we know that Laeral does have some skill as a warrior. She's less of an "I'm a warrior" than Dove though. In fact, we never really see her acting like a warrior (no wielding a sword or armor or such that I know of). They're also wanting to put in some levels as a spontaneous caster too though. Also, since Laeral is into subterfuge so much perhaps instead of sorcerer, we look at a different kind of spontaneous caster. The beguiler. In taking this class, whenever they get new spells, they also get all spells in the class list, as opposed to sorcerer, who gets a broader range but less spells. Also, perhaps we look at a couple different prestige classes that focus on building a more "skill" driven character for social skills like bluff, sense motive, etc... Perhaps also, instead of being so much of a "ranger", she's more "roguish" to get the social skills that seem to fit her persona? But, building her in beguiler, rogue, and wizard sounds like a poor build. So, perhaps just rogue and wizard, or even a mixture of some ranger and rogue then wizard for spellcasting?
Also, I see that Demzer chose her to go harper mage, which is interesting for its giving the equivalent of bardic knowledge, plus later several skill focus knowledge feats, skill focus spellcraft, and eschew materials feat abilities. It requires 3 feats to get in (Alertness, Education, and Extend Spell), but the class abilities could make later going into Loremaster less of a pain.
One thing also to bear in mind, that once you hit level twenty, the +1 spellcaster level bonuses become fairly meaningless unless you are building a second spellcasting skill. So, worrying about whether you get a +1 on spellcasting at each level at that point kind of doesn't make as much sense.
So, perhaps with 30 levels to play with, the "build" for her might be something like rogue 3/ranger2/wizard 3/unseen seer 2/arcane trickster 10/ Loremaster 3/Archmage 3 then there's 5 more levels to mess with... maybe Epic Infiltrator for some? At this point her caster level will have reached 21st level, so the +1 spellcaster level is fairly useless. I'm not real happy with this idea, but I can't see where focusing on classes that increase wizard caster level at this point gives a great return on investment. You could continue unseen seer, which DOES have a penalty to caster level for non-divination spells, but since you're still building caster level in general, its not as big an issue (especially if you're already epic level). Could also keep building loremaster as well. The bonuses it give are some extra skill points and sneak attack increase. Still not extremely happy with the build.... anyone see some better improvements that still fit her personality?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 00:46:02
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Senior Scribe Demzer,
There is no by the books, unless you want it to be...
...just ask Leira. ;)
Whatever that means... ;) ;)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Redefining the seven sisters with 3.5e rulesets
