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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2004 : 23:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Basically they didn't like the constant negative comments, but couldn't just ban them, so they banned all novel discussion.
Yeah, I know, but sorry: that's not good enough for me. Until this changes, I think I might be exploring non-WotC fiction such as the non-WotC books Ed Greenwood has been publishing in the last few years... |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 23:41:19
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But that is essentially what they are doing. Not letting you use their nice free forums unless you are willing to be nice and not just post pages and pages of nasty commentary to scare off possible customers.
Ah well.
How about tsr books? Since the crux of your protest is aginst wotc, I am assuming that the books printed under tsr are ok?
I just picked up about three boxes from a booksale, and got a nice pile of stuff. All manner of fantasy, and in my eyes, the real score, some dnd novels by gygax.
Also, buy used novels. Wizards has already gotten their payment for those, so by buying used novels you are only supporting used book dealers.
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Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 00:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Look, the policies you dislike have very little to do with sis. She is just doing her job: enforcing what those on high pass down to her.
I know that she, as well as many of the other mods, do not personally care for the way things are now. But it is not theiir jobs to dictate policy, just to enforce it.
I can buy that, to a certain extent. But I've seen threads that were allowed to continue that made novel references, and other ones that said the same or less were closed down.
The comment that got me banned wasn't really about novels. 'Twas a thread about a Drizzt movie. I said that I thought Drizzt had had too much air-time, and to look at how many novels he was in. That was all I said, and yet that was enough for me to get the boot.
I wanted to protest, but the offending thread hadn't merely been locked, as most were -- it was totally deleted. So I could not prove my innocence. And I fired off an e-mail in protest, and didn't even receive a generic reply.
My point is, regardless of what the mods over there think about the novels ban, they are not evenly enforcing it. The moderation over there is heavy-handed and arbitrary. That is why I am tweaked off about the whole thing.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 03:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Until this changes, I think I might be exploring non-WotC fiction such as the non-WotC books Ed Greenwood has been publishing in the last few years...
One option and perhaps the only one that might work as I don't see any motivation for them to make a change unless they think $$$ will be affected. |
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Urlithani
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 07:14:13
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quote:
Basically they didn't like the constant negative comments, but couldn't just ban them, so they banned all novel discussion.
I find that to be a poor excuse. Negative comments are prevalent over positive comments simply because it's basically human nature to be quiet when content.
I think the real shock to me is that the WoTC boards are the only board I've found to change the business model for online forums. I have plenty of experience with the following companies:
NCSoft, City of Heroes.
Sony Online Entertainment, Planetside and Everquest.
Valve, Counter-strike.
I still interact with their products except for CS, which I spent 2 years on and am now "retired". EQ is 5 years this month, PS is 1 year, and CoH is new, but the pattern is readily predictable.
These companies do not lock down constant negativity. They are more successful for allowing it to exist.
You will not believe the number of times I have read/seen comments like these:
"Gods, I can't believe they nerfed "ability xx"; I HATE THIS GAME. Btw I'll be logging in for the raid in 10 thx."
As for CS, it's "I DON'T KNOW WHY I PUT UP WITH THIS. It's buggy, hacked, you can't shoot CT's with a shield, even in the back, and now I JUST GOT BANNED FOR CHEATING ON MY FAV SERVER. I just got back from Wal mart with another copy of CS so I could get a new cd-key and play on that server again."
Regardless of how much they complain, they continue to support the product and company they are soooo upset at.
WoTC might lose business for allowing negativity to persist, but I feel they lose even more by trying to solve things with an iron fist.
This comes from my "X Files conspiracy" gland in my brain, but I think part of it may have had to do with complaints from authors who do not have a thick skin...but that's a real stretch and I don't buy it myself; it just crossed my mind.
If they just brought back the novel section and kept bans/warnings to the truly degenerative things, which include flaming, personal attacks, and sneaky underhanded comments(Trying to wash that bad taste from your mouth after I trounced you in the "Drizzt novels rule" thread, xxxx?), I think the boards will be much better.
P.S. Non WoTC fiction? Sword of Truth series and A Song of Fire and Ice. :)
P.P.S. I <3 Selune (how do I get the ^ over the "u", anyway)? |
Biggest. Selûne. Fanboy. Ever! :)
"The only reward of Virtue is Virtue." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The time is always right to do what is right. "
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. |
Edited by - Urlithani on 22 May 2004 07:16:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 07:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Urlithani
P.P.S. I <3 Selune (how do I get the ^ over the "u", anyway)?
Well... You could find the particular key-combination to get the û. In the case of that letter, it would be the Alt key, plus the number 0251 -- at least, that's it for the Times New Roman font. (You hold Alt, and type in 0251. When you release the Alt key, the û appears.)
Or you could use the Character Map (which is how I found that combination) and just copy and paste that letter. If you have Windows, the Character Map may or may not be installed... Use the Search function to see if you can find it.
Yet another option is to copy it from another place, and simply cut and paste whenever you want to use it...
My method: I tend to use words like "mañana" a lot, so I decided to make things easy on myself. I set the keyboard layout (from the Control Panel) from US to US-International. This allows me to do all sorts of funky non-American letters like û, ë, ç, é, è, ñ, etc... That's how I can spell Faerûn, Selûne, and Syluné properly. 
Oh, and if you chose the last method, you have to get used to it. All of those odd characters are made by first hitting the character that goes over or under the letter, and then the letter. For example, to type û, I have to first hit the ^ and then the letter u. The drawback is that if I'm not careful, I may intend to type the sentence (with quotation marks as part of the sentence) "I told him that!", but accidentally wind up with Ï told him that!" So if you do that, you have to get used to hitting the spacebar after certain characters so they don't wind up over/under the next letter you type. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 May 2004 07:39:09 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 12:13:28
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Back on the topic at hand:
I've just posted a novel question on the "Ask Rich Baker" thread. Either Rich ignores it, answers it, gets me banned, but they sure can't lock that thread right?  |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 13:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Back on the topic at hand:
I've just posted a novel question on the "Ask Rich Baker" thread. Either Rich ignores it, answers it, gets me banned, but they sure can't lock that thread right?
Nice thinking, though they can just delete your post and pretend the question was never asked. I'm still disappointed with the heavy handed approach, especially the inconsistencies, but obviously they were having some problems with the board. I don't like it but we don't really know enough about the motivation for it and likely never will. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 14:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Urlithani
Regardless of how much they complain, they continue to support the product and company they are soooo upset at.
Excellent point.
quote:
This comes from my "X Files conspiracy" gland in my brain, but I think part of it may have had to do with complaints from authors who do not have a thick skin...but that's a real stretch and I don't buy it myself; it just crossed my mind.
Well, magic bullet comments aside, I think you are right. Author(s) sentiment I feel played some part. I have suspicion as to which one(s), but alas, that's only a gut feeling based upon some threads in the months leading up to the crackdown.
quote:
If they just brought back the novel section and kept bans/warnings to the truly degenerative things, which include flaming, personal attacks, and sneaky underhanded comments(Trying to wash that bad taste from your mouth after I trounced you in the "Drizzt novels rule" thread, xxxx?), I think the boards will be much better.
Well, maybe that's the model they will follow if they allow novel discussion on the Eberron boards.
quote:
P.S. Non WoTC fiction? Sword of Truth series and A Song of Fire and Ice. :)
George R.R. Martin!  Now, there's someone who can cause some heated discussion if he doesn't write faster. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 14:22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Back on the topic at hand:
I've just posted a novel question on the "Ask Rich Baker" thread. Either Rich ignores it, answers it, gets me banned, but they sure can't lock that thread right?
Sirius starts whistling, "I fought the law and the law won..." |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 14:24:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
I don't like it but we don't really know enough about the motivation for it and likely never will.
Exactly and even if they came out and said, "Well, it was because of Reason X," I don't really trust WOTC to accept their word at face value. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 17:03:35
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I can no more fathom WotC's pathetic kind of forum tyranny than any of the rest of you - but I really think we should (having got a board that we are all happy on, here) try and have a little persepective and maturity.
This decision is a policy of WotC, and though the moderation has been pathetically picky and even silly at times (i.e. Wooly's confusing experiences), we can't go and blame Big_Sis and the Wiz0s. Sure, it was them that banned you, but they could be doing worse - they could have just closed down the entire FR threads (yeah, unlikely, but still...)
And even if they are being ****s, sending hate-mail to them is pretty low. They are people, despite the appearance of being annoying robots. Blame WotC, not the (I'm sure) underpaid folks who must interact with the posters.
There really is no excuse for the odd way WotC have tackled this, but who cares - we've got Candlekeep! And let's not ruin that! |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 17:12:40
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There can be no question of tyranny or censorship on a private message board. Various policies and their application may be good or bad for the company or for the board users, but none of us has any right to insist the wizards.com boards be one way or another. We can just use them, or not.
I have to say that I mention novels quite often and haven't been warned for it.
This is the private message I sent WizO_BigSister in reference to this:quote:
I think the biggest reason not to forbid all mentions of novels is the great amount of Realmslore Ed Greenwood writes into his, especially as less lore is appearing in the sourcebooks. Many characters, places, and examples of how the Realms works (sayings, politics, merchant practices) appear only in his fiction, and it would seriously weaken and bias discussion of the Realms for that to be off-limits. People are less likely to bother making, for instance, lists of the sources of the FRCS dungeon list if they'll only be allowed to post incomplete versions.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 17:24:53
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quote:
"Gods, I can't believe they nerfed "ability xx"; I HATE THIS GAME. Btw I'll be logging in for the raid in 10 thx."
Yes, what people do is a much better gauge of whether they like something than what they say. As Andrew Vachss says, behaviour is truth.
I've set up Microsoft Word to (Tools>)AutoCorrect Faerun to Faerûn. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 20:52:31
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| I should also say I never saw Woolly Rupert post anything that warranted banning, and he does seem to have been mistreated. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 22:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I should also say I never saw Woolly Rupert post anything that warranted banning, and he does seem to have been mistreated.
I'll second that. Wooly was a great contributor to the WotC Boards. This is partially why I think Big Sis must go... she has no depth perception, keeps whining that what's happening is not her fault and frankly does not inspire confidence in her remarks. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 01:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
they could have just closed down the entire FR threads (yeah, unlikely, but still...)
As far as I'm concerned, they can shut down the WOTC FR board. Actually, I really wouldn't like that for one reason, but it has nothing to do with enjoying whatever is shared on that forum.
quote:
but who cares - we've got Candlekeep! And let's not ruin that!
What exactly that any scribe has proposed in this thread causes you to worry about Candlekeep being ruined?  |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 05:10:53
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I don't want to think about what would happen to the forums here were WotC to shut down their boards.
Sarta |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 06:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
I don't want to think about what would happen to the forums here were WotC to shut down their boards.
Sarta
That's a really good point. If it wasn't for the WotC forums, then a lot of those people would be over here... And while I would certainly love to see a few specific individuals make that migration, there are also some that I'm glad are staying over there.
No disrespect intended to WotC, but I think we have a more mature bunch of posters over here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 14:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Look, the policies you dislike have very little to do with sis. She is just doing her job: enforcing what those on high pass down to her.
I know that she, as well as many of the other mods, do not personally care for the way things are now. But it is not theiir jobs to dictate policy, just to enforce it.
And as cavalier as you might be, Elf_Friend, in an economy like this when jobs like this are scarce, I am fairly certain you would err on the side of not living in a cardboard box.
Last I heard, mods don't get paid for doing it. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 15:14:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Last I heard, mods don't get paid for doing it.
And last I heard, WOTC's moderators are paid. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 17:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
but who cares - we've got Candlekeep! And let's not ruin that!
What exactly that any scribe has proposed in this thread causes you to worry about Candlekeep being ruined?
I don't worry about it - a the moment these boards are lovely and are visited by mature and likable people. I just meant that we should not let the atmosphere at WotC seep into these boards.
And as other posters mentione - if the WotC boards got closed, Candlekeep (as a sort of Shadow cabinet to WotCs distant ruling party - a reference to the British political system, so don't worry if you think "What the *badger* is he on about!?") would be the second choice to WotC regulars. Some of whom helped create the WotC forums atmosphere. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 17:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Last I heard, mods don't get paid for doing it.
And last I heard, WOTC's moderators are paid.
I'd expect them to be... Moderating a forum of that size takes some work. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 18:41:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd expect them to be... Moderating a forum of that size takes some work.
Yep, that's why they make the big $$$$. |
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OrnluTheWolf
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 19:34:52
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quote:
No disrespect intended to WotC, but I think we have a more mature bunch of posters over here.
Amen.
quote:
Yep, that's why they make the big $$$$.
I dunno about big bucks, but they MUST be paid. I'm of the opinion that they are underpaid.
I'm gonna quote myself, from the novel's forum discussion of this same topic:
quote:
I'm here on candlekeep solely for the novels section and only after I had been basicly kicked off of WotC forums. I'm a naturally opiniated person, so I've got alot to say about this, especially after the unnecessarily rude treatment I recieved from the WizO.
First:
While the administration obviously decieded that to disband the novel forum, they actually had a choice. On one hand, they could have expended much time and effort (mostly by the wizo's) to block/lock/delete any potentially copy-right enfringing posts, offensive posts, or irrelevant information. Or, they could have taken up an "information only" idealogy. They could have changed the CoC to not allow interactivity with the authors that would have been potentially harmful, but this also would have taken alot of work. Finally, they could have disbanded the forum entirely, which they did. Those chose the option involving the least work but also the one that stepped on the most toes.
Second:
I don't really have as much problem with the decision as I do with the execution of the policy. I was recently mistreated by BigSis, to the point where I wrote a very nasty and even profane email subtly begging to be permantly banned. The only thing I recieved in reply was a generic, automated response. My dirty letter never even got read. Also, the rules on what is/not acceptable are too vague.
Third:
These forums are WAY, WAY, WAY better anyway. For crying out loud, Elaine Cunningham, R.A. Salvatore, and Ed Greenwood frequent these forums. And most of the great authors that post here don't just answer questions, they make intelligent, lengthy posts that assist others rather than just one sentence posts that show their self-absorption. Elaine, if you're reading this, my extra-special thanks to you. I'm very impressed by the attitudes of you authors.
An' that's all I got to say, 'bout that. |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 01:33:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Last I heard, mods don't get paid for doing it.
And last I heard, WOTC's moderators are paid.
I'd expect them to be... Moderating a forum of that size takes some work.
They do get paid. Used to, they didn't but that changed a year or two ago. And they work something like 4 hours a week or something like that. It's not much pay. I think something like $7 (American) an hour the last time they took applications.
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 02:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
It's not much pay. I think something like $7 (American) an hour the last time they took applications.
They actually had the salary on the applications? Interesting.
What about benefits? 401k? Hasbro stock? |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 13:12:11
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When in doubt, ask. I won't reveal my source but they apparently do get paid, but it's minimum wage for a few hours a week. Certainly not enough to live on. It definitely wouldn't be enough for me personally to take the b.s. from a whole mess of people daily, especially if it's self induced, such as the whole novel discussion ban that WoTC would make me enforce.  Heck, I'd just unilaterally ban everyone.  |
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OrnluTheWolf
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 13:58:12
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| Maybe I'm just weird, but I could think of some cool things to do as a "letter of resignation" from WotC. Like post a 4 or 5 thousand word essay badmouthing my superiors, or simply go down the alphabetical list of users, issuing 3 bogus warnings to all so that they are banned. Or, post what really happened about the whole novel's thing. Posting the truth, that'd be sure to get you fired. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 18:48:52
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| Even before the novels forum was banned, I didn't like the atmosphere of the FR boards anyway. Ever since Big Sister appeared with her dizzingly annoying, screaming-faced avatar, I've been slowly driven crazy. Her heavy-handed moderation of those boards took all the fun out of them. She's annoying, and I'm glad that her job has been reduced to being a member of the "novel gestapo." |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Frustration with WotC Boards
