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Shawn Daniels
Seeker
79 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 10:18:00
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I consider in my mind Spelljammer and Forgotten Realms to be inseparable as far as cosmology, although we have been debating how we could make sense of how things are and are not affected by events in other spheres while still connected to the same planes. I know some do not subscribe to the Spelljammer as default canon to be thrown into the universe of the Realms- whatevs. Anyway, is Planescape canonically reconcilable with the Realms? Is Planescape that overarching cosmological landscape I've been reeling in with Spelljammer?
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Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 10:29:29
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| Characters from the Realms turn up in Sigil plenty, if that answers your question. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 10:37:13
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| Planescape was built to include the Realms, and there are many canon references to the other in each setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Shawn Daniels
Seeker
79 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 11:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Planescape was built to include the Realms, and there are many canon references to the other in each setting.
Ok, so does that mean I can read Planescape novels along with Spelljammer and Realms novels, and write research papers that reference material from all 3 of those conceptions? As far as the research papers go, I don’t super see it a problem as long as I specify/categorize my information by the source. |
Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 14:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Daniels
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Planescape was built to include the Realms, and there are many canon references to the other in each setting.
Ok, so does that mean I can read Planescape novels along with Spelljammer and Realms novels, and write research papers that reference material from all 3 of those conceptions? As far as the research papers go, I don’t super see it a problem as long as I specify/categorize my information by the source.
It depends... Planescape was a 2E thing. They chucked it all out the window with 3E, changed things again with 4E, and from what I understand, have gone to some weird "Planescape with some of our weird retconned stuff bolted onto it" thing for 5E.
And while Spelljammer and Planescape both connected the main settings, in 2E, Planescape did a far better job of it. A lot of the Spelljammer material that concerned the primary settings seemed to be made by someone unfamiliar with those settings. We've got stuff in Realmspace that is not mentioned anywhere else in FR material, and there's at least one thing in Krynnspace that directly contradicts Dragonlance lore.
Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings, and it's where my username comes from... And while I love it for everything above the skies of the individual settings, as soon as those other game worlds come into the picture, it gets problematic. My preference is to ignore any Spelljammer material that concerns the published settings themselves, because it certainly seemed that the SJ writers were ignoring everything about those settings.
I suspect both settings were created in a different fashion... I think Spelljammer was "let's take D&D into space, and use that to connect all the worlds!" while the Planescape approach was "let's take everything that's already known and published and build up and out from there."
Planescape was integrated much better, and received more and much better support. I like Spelljammer more, but Planescape was the better setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Apr 2020 14:28:27 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Shawn Daniels
Seeker
79 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 18:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Daniels
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Planescape was built to include the Realms, and there are many canon references to the other in each setting.
Ok, so does that mean I can read Planescape novels along with Spelljammer and Realms novels, and write research papers that reference material from all 3 of those conceptions? As far as the research papers go, I don’t super see it a problem as long as I specify/categorize my information by the source.
It depends... Planescape was a 2E thing. They chucked it all out the window with 3E, changed things again with 4E, and from what I understand, have gone to some weird "Planescape with some of our weird retconned stuff bolted onto it" thing for 5E.
And while Spelljammer and Planescape both connected the main settings, in 2E, Planescape did a far better job of it. A lot of the Spelljammer material that concerned the primary settings seemed to be made by someone unfamiliar with those settings. We've got stuff in Realmspace that is not mentioned anywhere else in FR material, and there's at least one thing in Krynnspace that directly contradicts Dragonlance lore.
Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings, and it's where my username comes from... And while I love it for everything above the skies of the individual settings, as soon as those other game worlds come into the picture, it gets problematic. My preference is to ignore any Spelljammer material that concerns the published settings themselves, because it certainly seemed that the SJ writers were ignoring everything about those settings.
I suspect both settings were created in a different fashion... I think Spelljammer was "let's take D&D into space, and use that to connect all the worlds!" while the Planescape approach was "let's take everything that's already known and published and build up and out from there."
Planescape was integrated much better, and received more and much better support. I like Spelljammer more, but Planescape was the better setting.
Replying to both you and Lord Karsus:
Ah. And so I may as well not focus on Spelljammer except for the interesting ideas it brings, and I should not use Planescape for anything other than a fine historical example of how to expand and integrate the Realms cosmology. |
Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed. |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 19:58:22
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Are you writing'research papers'for a school class? Your own canon writings or campaign? You've mentioned this more than a few times.
Because I'll say this to maybe save you some trouble if you haven't already tripped to it: there is nothing orderly, sacrosanct, written in stone, or objectively truthful about the Realms through all of its published history. Maybe in Ed's campaign, but not the published version.
Trying to rectify it into some kind of beautiful tapestry isn't possible. But... It may be fun in the attempt. So, carry on. ;-) |
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Shawn Daniels
Seeker
79 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 20:47:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
Are you writing'research papers'for a school class? Your own canon writings or campaign? You've mentioned this more than a few times.
Because I'll say this to maybe save you some trouble if you haven't already tripped to it: there is nothing orderly, sacrosanct, written in stone, or objectively truthful about the Realms through all of its published history. Maybe in Ed's campaign, but not the published version.
Trying to rectify it into some kind of beautiful tapestry isn't possible. But... It may be fun in the attempt. So, carry on. ;-)
Thank you for asking!
No, I am writing papers for us as a website and a community.
You make a very good point, which is why the papers will be subdivided by types of idea, whether it’s canon or not, the editions of the reference material, etc.
The point of the papers is to bring to light all of what is canonically known about the Realms, and the interesting ideas and possibilities that can be considered based on the facts of the canon. It is both meant to be inspirational and educational.
I disagree about being able to make a beautiful tapestry. There are very many ways of making things, and comfortably at that. 
Imagine having a Planescape setting for 5e that incorporates the Spelljammer things as canon, but with revised cosmology and getting rid of everything that clashes with the other campaign settings, and just having this big, fat, beautiful, and perfectly balanced conglomeration of worlds. IMAGINE!
And you’re damn right about it being fun in the making.   |
Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 20:49:30
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| I should note; 4e had a decent amount of info on Sigil, and was explicitly set after the events of the Faction War. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
801 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 20:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
there is nothing orderly, sacrosanct, written in stone, or objectively truthful about the Realms through all of its published history.
Or, as a very wise man once said, "On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true."
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AJA
YAFRP
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 23:23:44
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Generally speaking Spelljammer and Planescape (and Ravenloft, etc.) and any other generic D&D material is canon unless it formally contradicts something in FR canon. As was pointed out both were 2E era product lines that integrated the Realms. Spelljammer had the product Realmspace, for example. Planescape had the FR crossover with For Duty and Deity. 3E rearranged the Great Wheel of Planescape. 4E morphed the 3E Realms concept of the planes further. And 5E has pretty much gone back to the Great Wheel (albeit building on the great stuff that came out further development of the Plane of Shadow and Faerie into the Shadowfell and Feywild).
Regarding Spelljammer, 5E has had many winks toward it. There is nothing in any edition that would obviate Spelljammer lore that I'm aware of.
Planescape is a little tougher. We've speculated on these boards that the Outer Planes are bit unknowable to mortals even though they can visit them, thus it is all true across editions depending on one's viewpoint and ability to understand the divine. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 00:57:58
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Spelljammer and Planescape were campaign settings in themselves which could include (or ignore) the Realms in part or in entirety.
The idea was that characters could effectively play in a different world every session, if they liked. Spelljammer tended to focus more on the travel-between-places aspect of things, and Planescape tended to railroad players along more fixed paths (or distractions) along the way. Both settings were populated by plenty folks who originated from or kept returning to the Realms. While Realmslore had plenty of references to both of these settings, at least before later editions deprecated them.
They were always about seeing a large tapestry worlds in D&D, and they were "worlds" in themselves. They weren't about emphasizing any one world (like the Realms) because the more you stuck around any one world like some muddy grounder or some clueless Prime, the less you could explore the skies and the heavens. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 14:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Daniels
Ok, so does that mean I can read Planescape novels along with Spelljammer and Realms novels, and write research papers that reference material from all 3 of those conceptions? As far as the research papers go, I don’t super see it a problem as long as I specify/categorize my information by the source.
Generally, in Realms novels most action happens on Abeir-Toril, obviously.
Finder's Stone series involves a bit of planewalking, some others too. Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck stand out as focused on planewalking and partially set in Sigil. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 23:13:52
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Evermeet: Island of Elves wouldn't be complete without the harrowing event of a Spelljammer ship from another Plane crashing on Evermeet, and revitalizing the populace with otherworldly elves from a unknown origin. I think Planescape is/was vital to FR lore and current FR adventures.
If your PC's can go to Avernus... why can't they go to another Plane of existance?
If your PC's can travel to and survive the 9 Hells, then why not the multiverse? To limit that chance is terrible DM'ing. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2020 : 00:23:22
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@Copper Elven Vampire ...
You may be surprised to learn that surviving in places like the Nine Hells or the Abyss is sometimes easier than surviving in places like Celestia or Ysgard. "Good-aligned" planars can be just as hostile and antagonistic towards uninvited trespassers as any fiend. Maybe not as malign, but just as inhuman and just as dangerous/deadly. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Planescape?!
