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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2020 : 22:55:07
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I honestly want to know. Does anyone have any idea if The Vampire Manshoon is a regular Vampire that adheres to the nocturnal vampire template, OR is he a Vampire Lord who can walk in the daylight among other mortals?
From what snippets I could get from "The Herald", it seems the Vampire Manshoon has the Vampire Lord Template, as he can walk the city streets among mortals and drink alcohol in the taverns.
Not sure if I have that correct, but that's what I'm getting.
Anyone have any ideas, opinions or cannon they can share?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2020 : 23:50:18
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I'd always thought Vampshoon (or rather, multiple Vampshoons?) was a "typical" vampire. Albeit one who is an archmage, may have access to many unique spells and items, and may have great influence over powerful members of the Black Network.
If so, he may apparently emulate living behaviours or negate unliving restrictions through use of illusions, magic, simulacra, dopplegangers, etc. He was always a paranoid and crafty villain in life, never willing to expose his weaknesses, misdirecting and manipulating everyone he could, ridiculously overloaded with backups and contingencies. How much moreso when as a vampire he is vulnerable to numerous limitations?
And, another thought, there might be still living Cloneshoons wandering around, observed doing living things vampires cannot do.
I don't recall seeing any stat writeups on him. Though late-3E wasn't really my thing. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 00:11:39
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As I remember... after The Manshoon wars... only 3 Manshoons remained. 1 was "The True" Manshoon. Another was The Vampire Manshoon of Westgate and a last and lonely Manshoon that sought to manipulate the others to his patient will.
Which is the true Manshoon, and is the Vampire Manshoon a Vampire Lord or not? |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 00:14:26
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| I only ask because a Vampire Lord Template jacks up your CR considerably. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 01:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
As I remember... after The Manshoon wars... only 3 Manshoons remained. 1 was "The True" Manshoon. Another was The Vampire Manshoon of Westgate and a last and lonely Manshoon that sought to manipulate the others to his patient will.
Which is the true Manshoon, and is the Vampire Manshoon a Vampire Lord or not?
Which is the one missing an arm? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 02:02:38
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
As I remember... after The Manshoon wars... only 3 Manshoons remained. 1 was "The True" Manshoon. Another was The Vampire Manshoon of Westgate and a last and lonely Manshoon that sought to manipulate the others to his patient will.
Which is the true Manshoon, and is the Vampire Manshoon a Vampire Lord or not?
Which is the one missing an arm?
Not sure... But I'm sure it's not the Vampire Manshoon, or Alpha Manshoon. So I assume it's the third and last manshoon that hides and manipulates from distant lands. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 02:29:04
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The 3E FRCS said there were three Manshoon clones left: The one that stayed with the Zhents, Vampshoon, and the one in Undermountain.
The one that lost the arm was the one in Undermountain. He was defeated by Halaster, imprisoned, and had an arm lopped off -- and then, without all his spells and with limited ability to cast them, somehow escaped. 
Ed has implied that the real Manshoon remains lurking behind the scenes -- we've seen him before, but he's been letting clones go around thinking they're the only Manshoon in town.
I personally think that there's a lot more clones running around, still -- but they've either gone to ground where they won't encounter other Manshoon clones, or they've left the Realms entirely, or they've changed to something other than a living Manshoon clone (undeath, shapechanging to some other race, etc). |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 03:29:04
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| Maybe the Manshoons are like the Constructions. Get enough of them together and they combine to form True Manshoons First Form. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 04:18:17
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Did some digging, and found curious answers: the 4e FRCG says that Zhent Manshoon was killed by the Netherese and one-armed Manshoon was killed by the Spellplague, and that only vampire Manshoon/Orbakh had survived, now openly running the Zhentarim again from “the haunted castle of Stormwatch.”
However, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (the 4e adventure), says that “at least three” clones survive (no specifics), and the one-armed Manshoon runs the Zhentarim from the Kolat Towers in Waterdeep. EDIT: Notably, he’s a human, not a vampire.
Now, this could be someone not doing their homework (or throwing out all 4e lore), but I am curious if there’s a middle road here - maybe Orbakh and one-armed Manshoon share control, possibly impersonating one another. Is the Pereghost still running the organization?
EDIT 2: ...okayyyy, the 5e SCAG says The Pereghost (or perhaps the latest Pereghost) is running things from Darkhold, so now it’s especially messy. 5e has established multiple leaders of the Zhents, based in different places, the Manshoon at the helm isn’t the same Manshoon who was leading it in 4e, and the two Manshoons 4e said are dead are back without explanation. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 12 Apr 2020 04:36:32 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 04:27:48
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| Oh shoot, Vampire Manshoon is in Spellstorm and The Herald? Looks like I need to do some more reading forward after I get done the Finder's Stone trilogy for some back reading then! (He's my BBEG, with a plan to fire the dragon laser at the sun and plunge Toril into eternal night - perfect for a vampire, eh?) |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 04:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The Manshoon (clone?) in the novel Spellstorm (1488 DR) is the vampire known as "Orbakh of Westgate".
He is able to eat normal food in the book.
The one and the same!! A variable clone of Manshoon that was turned into a Vampire and then killed the Vampire guild leader of the Westgate Assassins/ thieves guild. Now ruler of the Infamous Westgate Thieves guild. I was just wondering if he is a Vampire or Vampire Lord?? I would go with Vampire Lord due to his encounters in "The Herald". by Ed Greenwood. But I could be totally wrong. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 04:42:43
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Arivia, maybe not so perfect for this vampire Manshoon. He seems unaffected by exposure to sun. Just saying ...
— George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 05:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Arivia, maybe not so perfect for this vampire Manshoon. He seems unaffected by exposure to sun. Just saying ...
— George Krashos
Exactly! So he's a Vampire Lord then? He is a protagonist in my campaign so I really want to know. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 05:16:16
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| I'd be more inclined to say that given his own personal magics, and the magic available to him as head of a long-lived and powerful thieves' guild, that he's just using some bit of magic to appear normal. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 05:39:38
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| I would be skeptical about reports there were only three clones of Manshoon left. Only three clones known and accounted for, sure. Considering Manshoon is an archmage, I would postulate his magic could protect him from direct sunlight, running water or mirrors. Manshoon would not need to have Vampire Lord template. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 16:36:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd be more inclined to say that given his own personal magics, and the magic available to him as head of a long-lived and powerful thieves' guild, that he's just using some bit of magic to appear normal.
There is a 2e spell named Mimic Mortal (WSC2 pg 564) that would allow a vampire to basically become human for a short time. Vampshoon could have researched a higher level variant that lets him seem mortal without losing all his vampiric abilities, too. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 17:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd be more inclined to say that given his own personal magics, and the magic available to him as head of a long-lived and powerful thieves' guild, that he's just using some bit of magic to appear normal.
There is a 2e spell named Mimic Mortal (WSC2 pg 564) that would allow a vampire to basically become human for a short time. Vampshoon could have researched a higher level variant that lets him seem mortal without losing all his vampiric abilities, too.
I don't recall where I saw it, but I seem to recall some magic item that specifically allowed a vampire to withstand sunlight. This was something from a while ago, though -- late 2E, early 3E timeframe.
I don't have an issue with vampires being able to eat, either. Sure, they need blood for sustenance, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to eat anything else. Something doesn't need to provide nutrients to be edible, and given that most, if not all, of their other biological functions are still happening, I don't see why their digestive system wouldn't be able to handle the same stuff it was designed to handle. Van Richten's Guide to Vampires takes a varied approach, here -- some vampires can eat and the food passes normally, some can eat but will vomit later, some can't eat at all.
Also, Van Richten's Guide to Vampires had vampires gaining new abilities based purely on age -- including, eventually, the ability to move about in direct sunlight and retain their full abilities. These things scale with age, though, and Vampshoon hasn't been a vampire long enough. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 18:14:28
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Vampire Lords must command a bunch of vampires and must meet certain other conditions involving vampiric power struggles. If they don't fit the template they don't get the template, they're just "ordinary" vampires.
Vampshoon doesn't play at vampiric politics and power games. He never had to overthrow a master vampire to assert his dominance. He never had to repel attempts by subordinate vampires to assume his station. He doesn't concern himself with vampiric goals and struggles and the acquisition of power to serve vampiric needs. His objectives as a vampire are not driven by his vampirism, they are driven by the objectives as a person/clone/villain that he had without before.
I'm just saying that Vampshoon doesn't skulk around with a vampire coven, he doesn't add vampires to his ranks, he doesn't get territorial when other vampires appear, etc. He behaves these ways with Zhentarims, but he doesn't care if they're vampires or even if they're vampire lords, he's only concerned with their usefulness (and their expendability) in his Zhentarim missions.
So I argue Vampshoon's a vampire but not a vampire lord. He does not fit the descriptors and conditions of the vampire lord template. In fact, aside from being a vampire, he fails to meet almost all the standards of a vampire lord. He's too consumed with his magic, his control of the living, his Zhentish organization and power schemes - he's never focused on his vampirism, he wouldn't have learned the extra abilities and developed the supernatural powers a true vampire lord has needed to survive and ascend his order. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Apr 2020 18:17:32 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 21:09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Arivia, maybe not so perfect for this vampire Manshoon. He seems unaffected by exposure to sun. Just saying ...
— George Krashos
Well thbppt. I guess I'll have to lean real hard on the "make the Realms your own" and straight out contradict Ed for once. THAT FEELS WEIRD.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Vampire Lords must command a bunch of vampires and must meet certain other conditions involving vampiric power struggles. If they don't fit the template they don't get the template, they're just "ordinary" vampires.
Vampshoon doesn't play at vampiric politics and power games. He never had to overthrow a master vampire to assert his dominance. He never had to repel attempts by subordinate vampires to assume his station. He doesn't concern himself with vampiric goals and struggles and the acquisition of power to serve vampiric needs. His objectives as a vampire are not driven by his vampirism, they are driven by the objectives as a person/clone/villain that he had without before.
I'm just saying that Vampshoon doesn't skulk around with a vampire coven, he doesn't add vampires to his ranks, he doesn't get territorial when other vampires appear, etc. He behaves these ways with Zhentarims, but he doesn't care if they're vampires or even if they're vampire lords, he's only concerned with their usefulness (and their expendability) in his Zhentarim missions.
So I argue Vampshoon's a vampire but not a vampire lord. He does not fit the descriptors and conditions of the vampire lord template. In fact, aside from being a vampire, he fails to meet almost all the standards of a vampire lord. He's too consumed with his magic, his control of the living, his Zhentish organization and power schemes - he's never focused on his vampirism, he wouldn't have learned the extra abilities and developed the supernatural powers a true vampire lord has needed to survive and ascend his order.
I guess it's changed in Spellstorm and The Herald, but it's worth noting that Vampire Manshoon/Orbakh has overthrown a vampire leader and collected his own vampire vassals in Cloak and Dagger and Lords of Darkness 3e. It was a thing; it may no longer be. |
Edited by - Arivia on 12 Apr 2020 21:11:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 21:22:46
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| If Vampshoon has overthrown a vampire lord and collected vampire vassals, assumed the station and proven strong enough to hold it ... that meets all the template definitions of a vampire lord, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 13:21:53
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| To be fair, Vampshoon is more that powerful enough to kick any vampire's arse. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's a Vampire Lord, just a lord that happens to be a vampire. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 14:43:11
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Does Manshoon (well, one of the clones anyway) still possess that mask? I like the idea about Manshoon not letting people know what he looks like, especially after living for over two centuries. I would bet Elminster is the only living person who knows what Manshoon originally looked like. Concession: If Semmemon is still alive, count him too. Fzoul is now a demigod of Bane, so I excluded him.
That one of the clones is a vampire is of secondary importance. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 15:21:43
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| On a bright note, if Vampshoon gets destroyed, he ain't coming back. You can't create a clone from dead tissue. Of course, he has probably thought of this and created a new method but that is something that is going to take time and he may not be able to devote the needed time if he has to keep a close eye on his subordinates. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 15:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
On a bright note, if Vampshoon gets destroyed, he ain't coming back. You can't create a clone from dead tissue. Of course, he has probably thought of this and created a new method but that is something that is going to take time and he may not be able to devote the needed time if he has to keep a close eye on his subordinates.
Manshoon very well could have researched - or should I say revamped?  - a variant on his stasis clone that works only on vampires. |
Edited by - Delnyn on 13 Apr 2020 15:29:56 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 22:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Does Manshoon (well, one of the clones anyway) still possess that mask? I like the idea about Manshoon not letting people know what he looks like, especially after living for over two centuries. I would bet Elminster is the only living person who knows what Manshoon originally looked like. Concession: If Semmemon is still alive, count him too. Fzoul is now a demigod of Bane, so I excluded him.
That one of the clones is a vampire is of secondary importance.
4e seems to imply Vampshoon has the mask. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 02:02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
4e seems to imply Vampshoon has the mask.
Thanks for the quick reply. Glad to read Vampshoon still diligently covers his bases. Can't leak out Personally Identifiable Information. 
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 17:48:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
4e seems to imply Vampshoon has the mask.
Thanks for the quick reply. Glad to read Vampshoon still diligently covers his bases. Can't leak out Personally Identifiable Information.
Is it just him or is the entire Night Mask organization HIPAA compliant? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 18:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
4e seems to imply Vampshoon has the mask.
Thanks for the quick reply. Glad to read Vampshoon still diligently covers his bases. Can't leak out Personally Identifiable Information.
Is it just him or is the entire Night Mask organization HIPAA compliant?
I would say they're not HIPAA-compliant, because that's a potential blackmail source, there.
As a whole, the organization prolly doesn't care about any PII other than their own. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
770 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 20:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally think that there's a lot more clones running around, still -- but they've either gone to ground where they won't encounter other Manshoon clones, or they've left the Realms entirely, or they've changed to something other than a living Manshoon clone (undeath, shapechanging to some other race, etc).
As far as I am concerned, the only "true" Manshoon is the one from Ed's 2003 spin-a-yarn Only a Woman Can Take This Sort of Abuse, who forgot how to stasis clone but learned to like fishnets.
The exit ("just a jump to the left," purred Dove) the Sisters sent him through at the end took him to Earth, where he then spent the rest of his life trying to build a new, incredibly muscular and handsome clone (for umm...reasons) and took to calling himself Dr. Faerűnian-N-Furter.
And no, you can't convince me otherwise. 
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AJA
YAFRP
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2020 : 22:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally think that there's a lot more clones running around, still -- but they've either gone to ground where they won't encounter other Manshoon clones, or they've left the Realms entirely, or they've changed to something other than a living Manshoon clone (undeath, shapechanging to some other race, etc).
As far as I am concerned, the only "true" Manshoon is the one from Ed's 2003 spin-a-yarn Only a Woman Can Take This Sort of Abuse, who forgot how to stasis clone but learned to like fishnets.
The exit ("just a jump to the left," purred Dove) the Sisters sent him through at the end took him to Earth, where he then spent the rest of his life trying to build a new, incredibly muscular and handsome clone (for umm...reasons) and took to calling himself Dr. Faerűnian-N-Furter.
And no, you can't convince me otherwise.
So, does that make Fzoul=Riff and Sememmon=Magenta?
Boy this thread got weird quick. Must be from being cooped up in our homes for an extended period of time. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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The Vampire Manshoon
