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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 09:54:59
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Seriously, this new book is dense with lore for Critical Role’s setting, and heavy with material and plot hooks in a way I didn’t think WotC could do anymore. It’s structured more like the meaty old 3.5-era region books than anything since.
Think we’ll eventually see something similar, or stick with the lore-light approach?
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 12:07:19
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Not for the Realms. Too much Realmslore heavy-lifting for the writers.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 14:34:13
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| WotC isn't writing lore any more. That's why we're getting stuff like this, or like the Eberron book that was a rules update and nothing more -- they're going with stuff other people have done, so they don't have to put in any effort themselves. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 14:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC isn't writing lore any more. That's why we're getting stuff like this, or like the Eberron book that was a rules update and nothing more -- they're going with stuff other people have done, so they don't have to put in any effort themselves.
Seconded; all this.
Big chunks of what they do is simply rehashed. Until they surprise me in the future, I have no reason to believe they won't continue suit with their current business plan at Wizbro. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 16:23:12
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
Yeah, the cost of goods sold goes up dramatically on lore based products when those variable inputs are accounted for with lore.
Sadly, they just likely are not going to do it again as others have said. They can pump out the game in box stuff forever now that they've nuked the lore. This is why I think post-Spellplague editions are really taking a hit the kind of long-term buy-in they could get for future times predicated on the setting. The Realms just doesn't have the same setting feeling to me that engrosses you into wanting more, to learn more, to buy more. I've got four 5e modules that I have, that I've retroed back to pre-Spellplague. I don't know how many others are doing it, but I know it's a no go for me realizing they are dumping the lore. I want the Realms. :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 16:25:37
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Master Krashos,
Out of curiosity, with you being a writer of many amazing materials in quality and quantity: what is the average cost input of an authors labor for a lore intensive book such as Lost Empires, Spellbound Box Set, etc.? I know it is a lot, but in light of the discussion here, it is interesting to me.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Not for the Realms. Too much Realmslore heavy-lifting for the writers.
-- George Krashos
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 16:32:04
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Learned Scribe Renin,
Indeed. Particularly silly is them taking name brand characters, Elminster, and others, and giving some silly excuse for them to be in the future, so that the primary group of the X-Men can still be there.
Trite doesn't even begin to explain it on their part.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 20:13:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC isn't writing lore any more. That's why we're getting stuff like this, or like the Eberron book that was a rules update and nothing more -- they're going with stuff other people have done, so they don't have to put in any effort themselves.
The Eberron book had new lore in it. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 20:28:32
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC isn't writing lore any more. That's why we're getting stuff like this, or like the Eberron book that was a rules update and nothing more -- they're going with stuff other people have done, so they don't have to put in any effort themselves.
The Eberron book had new lore in it.
If there was new lore in there, I missed it. It looked like all they did was take the original campaign book and update it with new rules.
It's a good book, don't get me wrong -- it's just that it's the same one I already had. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 20:54:08
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Krashos,
Out of curiosity, with you being a writer of many amazing materials in quality and quantity: what is the average cost input of an authors labor for a lore intensive book such as Lost Empires, Spellbound Box Set, etc.? I know it is a lot, but in light of the discussion here, it is interesting to me.
Best regards,
Well, it's all about preparation. The only person I've worked closely with is Eric Boyd. Ed always did his own stuff and never asked for help (funny that!) and Steven had a stable of helpers (and I was late to that party only really doing any significant research for Sea of Fallen Stars). Other writers like Thomas Reid or authors like Elaine Cunningham, Erin Evans and James P Davis would ask targeted questions or want info on something specific. But with Eric it was always give me "everything on the Underdark/Dragons/creator Races" etc. etc.
Time wise? Days to catalogue all the references (and I'm lucky in that I'm a compulsive maker of FR lists so sometimes it was just about handing over the file - ala the Roll Call of Dragons web enhancement for Dragons of Faerûn which I already had about 90% done) and then more days to go over what was written and then deal with specific issues/conundrums/lore gaps and lore discontinuities.
Cost wise? Well, I can't tell you as I always did it for free. I've never wanted to be an RPG writer - realistically I don't have the time or the writing "muscles" to do that - and have made little real money from my work at the DM's Guild, for example. My time is valuable, but when you are doing something you love, that pretty much fades into insignificance.
I'm always doing stuff in the Realms. Daily. I'm helping out Eric with his current projects, although he is very much doing the heavy lifting and the actual writing, and have a few projects of my own that are realistically years away from release (wait for 2022, it's going to be big! ) but at the end of the day, it's just about fun and letting your imagination loose. Good times.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 21:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
George also suffers from excessive modesty.
Please be kind to him.
I'm kind to anyone that has to dodge drop bears on a daily basis. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 21:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
George also suffers from excessive modesty.
Please be kind to him.
I'm kind to anyone that has to dodge drop bears on a daily basis. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 22:27:18
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Master Krashos,
Very interesting!
First of all: as always, thank you very much for your selfless efforts and amazing work to what we all love. It is fantastic.
As to costs, I think I am getting an idea. I an fairly certain that designers/authors cannot comment even if they wanted too as they are likely under an NDA for that kind of information (as well as a lot more).
It intrinsically seems obvious that doing lore-based work is of course going to be much more expensive than what they are doing now, hence their likely great desire to move away from such production costs. I just worry what it will end up doing to what we all know the Realms to be. We know the value of cultural value of something that fandom associates with, and that means much like with Firefly with Fox, they just won't ever let something like the Realms go and be what it is, for likely any amount of money. I'd love to see it unleashed in the way we all know it needs.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 02:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC isn't writing lore any more. That's why we're getting stuff like this, or like the Eberron book that was a rules update and nothing more -- they're going with stuff other people have done, so they don't have to put in any effort themselves.
The Eberron book had new lore in it.
If there was new lore in there, I missed it. It looked like all they did was take the original campaign book and update it with new rules.
It's a good book, don't get me wrong -- it's just that it's the same one I already had.
The biggest change was a pretty substantial (and IMHO, much-needed) retcon to the dwarves, though I agree that the other material was a little lighter. If you like the setting, Exploring Eberron is due out imminently, and is almost nothing but lore Keith Baker's never gotten into published canon before: details on the planes and the undersea civilizations are the two big ones. It'll be a Guild release.
I'd be keen to see more lore-heavy Guild content from familiar names. Ed's working on a Border Kingdoms book we should see in the next month or so?
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 13:19:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
George also suffers from excessive modesty.
Please be kind to him.
A Priestess of Loviatar walks in and says "Oh, I'll be VERY kind to him..." |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 15:07:29
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
Regarding Eberron, I do love lore. However, my issue here is, they want to issue lore on something that isn't as cumbersome to writers/authors as was explained earlier, and in my opinion they'll just get rid of it in the future when it is too cumbersome, doing to the Eberron campaign, what they did to the Realms.
I just don't think the trust is there, and shouldn't be there, unless they can come back and demonstrate their willingness to get things back on track with the Realms.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 19:42:29
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe keftiu,
Regarding Eberron, I do love lore. However, my issue here is, they want to issue lore on something that isn't as cumbersome to writers/authors as was explained earlier, and in my opinion they'll just get rid of it in the future when it is too cumbersome, doing to the Eberron campaign, what they did to the Realms.
I just don't think the trust is there, and shouldn't be there, unless they can come back and demonstrate their willingness to get things back on track with the Realms.
Best regards,
I mean, it’s been three editions and that hasn’t happened yet... |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 18:23:58
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
I am going to assume your knowledge base on Eberron is infinitely beyond mine: I own one accessory, and have never read one page.
That being said: it begs the question then, that if Eberron hasn't changed in three editions with its lore, why WotC did it going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and 4 to 5?
I know it was lined out in the Dragon magazine article upon the release of the Spellplague, and I know Eberron doesn't have hardly any lore compared to the Realms, but it is odd.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
That being said: it begs the question then, that if Eberron hasn't changed in three editions with its lore, why WotC did it going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and 4 to 5?
Because it was a popular setting, and because WotC barely had to do any work to put out a new sourcebook. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:28:47
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Master Rupert,
Sorry, I looked back at my comment you quoted and realized I worded my question very poorly. Let me rephrase:
quote:
That being said: it begs the question then, that if Eberron hasn't changed in three editions with its lore, why WotC did it going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and 4 to 5?
That being said: it begs the question then, that if Eberron hasn't changed in three editions with its lore, why WotC changed the lore so much with the Forgotten Realms as it moved from 2e --> 3e --> 4e --> 5e, and wrecked the continuity?
Eberron was focused and according to Learned Scribe keftiu, had its lore continue and I am guessing remained consistent. If they could do that for Eberron, why not the Realms?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:44:10
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| Eberron has always been static. The lore has remained consistent because everything published in the first 3E book is still valid. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 21:47:04
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as long as we're talking about Eberron, I've never read any of the novel line (and while I read the campaign setting, I only parsed other material). How were the novels? Good? Meh? Any particular ones I should read?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 22:14:03
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe keftiu,
I am going to assume your knowledge base on Eberron is infinitely beyond mine: I own one accessory, and have never read one page.
That being said: it begs the question then, that if Eberron hasn't changed in three editions with its lore, why WotC did it going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and 4 to 5?
I know it was lined out in the Dragon magazine article upon the release of the Spellplague, and I know Eberron doesn't have hardly any lore compared to the Realms, but it is odd.
Best regards,
“Doesn’t have hardly any lore” is a sort of insulting take, considering you haven’t even read it; the setting is plenty rich. There were some minor updates between editions - 4e added the eladrin and dragonborn into the fringes of the world, 5e had a pretty neat revision to the main dwarven culture - but largely the point in the editions has been offering mechanical support in the new edition, as the new races it adds, the Artificer class, and things like dragonmarks are all key to the world.
The “static” part of the setting is that it’s always set in the year 998 YK, and the novels are non-canon. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 22:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
as long as we're talking about Eberron, I've never read any of the novel line (and while I read the campaign setting, I only parsed other material). How were the novels? Good? Meh? Any particular ones I should read?
The Draconic Prophecies trilogy is terrible, but one of the characters has a phenomenal arc. I still can’t decide if their story is worth the rest of it.
I remember enjoying all of The Inquisitives one-shots, especially Abraxis Wren, but it!s been years. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 03:31:56
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
quote:
I know it was lined out in the Dragon magazine article upon the release of the Spellplague, and I know Eberron doesn't have hardly any lore compared to the Realms, but it is odd.
That part that says, "..., and I know Eberron doesn't have hardly any lore compared to the Realms,..." is important for context. Either way, it's true. The amount of lore product for the Realms is massive compared to Eberron. I am certain that they have lore, and I have no reason to disbelieve that "the setting is plenty rich." By product volume however, it is not as rich as the Realms, and unless they start hammering out setting product for it again in massive numbers, it never will be.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Hope we get an equivalent to Wildemount
