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egardrol
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 23:02:05
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Why is it in all the cover page pictures Drizzt's scimitars are exactly the same. I want to see what Twinkle and Icingdeath look like!
Please state your opinion!
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prayne de crabug ahm rinedere be-yogt iglo kes gron |
Edited by - Alaundo on 29 Apr 2004 16:55:10
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 23:08:53
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Kindly change the title of this thread.  |
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egardrol
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 23:11:06
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sorry about that didnt mean to offend. but could youtell me about that?
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prayne de crabug ahm rinedere be-yogt iglo kes gron |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 01:20:30
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I gave up on most of the artwork a long time ago, back when TSR was still in action.
What we have is artists who don't always know the characters they're painting, or what their weapons look like, etc. And for some reason, TSR let this slide, and WotC has made it worse. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 04:08:15
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I did too Wooly.If only the writers could all be artists |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 06:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
I did too Wooly.If only the writers could all be artists
While that would be nice, an easier answer would be for WotC to require the art to match the description. Making the artists read about who they're painting would help... And if the artwork doesn't fit, either drop that artist or make them do it over.
I'm still bugged by the fact that one artist decided Drizzt Do'Urden has a funky gold thing on his forehead, and now all of them want to put it on there... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 06:59:35
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I believe that was Larry (of Dragonlance art fame) Elmore  . Then again, it could also have been Jeff Easley. I know they worked on similar projects in the early-to-mid 90's.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 07:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I believe that was Larry (of Dragonlance art fame) Elmore . Then again, it could also have been Jeff Easley. I know they worked on similar projects in the early-to-mid 90's.
Larry Elmore did the cover of The Crystal Shard. Though Drizzt is wearing a hood, you can see his bangs -- and an absence of that gold thing. Sadly, though, the skin tone was still wrong. I'm a little curious about that, since other Elmore artwork has featured dark-skinned drow.
I believe the funky headplate comes from Homeland, and that was Jeff Easley. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 09:24:28
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Yes, and Easley was responsible for the coverart on the other two books in the Dark Elf trilogy as well. Which, if I recall correctly, both have Drizzt wearing the "funky headplate", as you put it  .
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 12:08:35
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I remember reading Homeland more than 11 years ago... my first thought about the cover was that this guy was Zaknafein (the elf looked a wee bit older than what I was imagining Drizzt... more lanky, with less muscles due to age)
The headplate could be "an old drow thing" to cover baldness or receding hairlines.
Can't believe they kept it on afterwards.
I still shudder at the one where 94-year old "Drizzt" (human years!) is with the young 9-year old looking Cattie-Brie... considering... some observations made by Drizzt on the... subject of Cattie-Brie!  |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 13:16:56
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So, does anyone actually know what this golden headband represents?. Or is it simply another example of the "it looks cool so I'll use it" artistic philosophy?.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 16:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
So, does anyone actually know what this golden headband represents?. Or is it simply another example of the "it looks cool so I'll use it" artistic philosophy?.
So far as I know, it's just there because it looks cool. I certainly can't recall any references to it, and I've read the majority of the Drizzt books. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 16:33:52
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I don't particularly like the sound of that . I prefer that novels accurately portray the characters of the novel on the cover. Is it too much to ask that cover artists research the characters within the book before they begin their work?  .
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 17:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't particularly like the sound of that . I prefer that novels accurately portray the characters of the novel on the cover. Is it too much to ask that cover artists research the characters within the book before they begin their work? .
That's my thinking, as well.
It's bad enough that TSR didn't require this, and neither does WotC. But it's worse that they don't care enough to make sure that the art we do get is accurate.
Not only that, but the quality of the artwork varies. I've seen some truly beautiful artwork in game books and supplements or the cover of novels, and I've seen some that any amateur could've done a better job on.
There's really only one fantasy artist I truly pay attention to: Larry Elmore. I think he's simply the best around.
Jeff Easley and Clyde Caldwell (he of the red rounded gem) are skilled artists as well.
Remember those long ago days when 90% of the D&D artwork was done by Elmore, Easley, or Caldwell? That's when I paid attention to the artwork. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 18:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't particularly like the sound of that . I prefer that novels accurately portray the characters of the novel on the cover. Is it too much to ask that cover artists research the characters within the book before they begin their work? .
Not any more. WOTC now changes the TEXT of things to satisfy the artists. For example, drow all of a sudden are now grey, blue-black, or obsidian in Underdark.
I just had a large disagreement about this over on thier boards two days ago because a poster didn't like that I said its insulting to gamers that WOTC changes the text on how drow look. He answered later on with, "Well how do we know what they look like on the surface, maybe thier skin changes color in the sun."
If that's the case then how come no other books ever said so and even 3.5's Races of Faerun and the MM says they are obsidian.
Richard Baker posted to me on April 6th: "RE: The drow, I suspect that line is in the description to justify all the art we've ever had rendered in which drow were not as black as ink. Sort of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" concession to our artists. (In their defense, it is seriously difficult to give someone a truly night-black skin tone in an illustration, and still show any features at all.)" |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 29 Apr 2004 18:37:05 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 20:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I just had a large disagreement about this over on thier boards two days ago because a poster didn't like that I said its insulting to gamers that WOTC changes the text on how drow look. He answered later on with, "Well how do we know what they look like on the surface, maybe thier skin changes color in the sun."
Does this mean the drow sunning himself in the Player's Guide to Faerun is patiently waiting for his color to change on the surface so he can confuse his enemies?
I can see a future product will have a table somewhat like the following:
Drow Color Change. Roll d% to see what color your drow character's skin changes once exposed to the sun
1-10%: White as white can be
11-20%: No change, blame your DM
21-30%: Firehouse red
31-40%: Bright orange. Your character must immediately take on the Crossing Guard prestige class if you receive this result.
41-50%: Aquamarine. Your character immediately gains five followers called Kyan, Ted, Carson, Jai, and Thom, all of whom immediately wish to give advice on fashion, grooming, and care of your personal weapon.
etc... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 20:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I just had a large disagreement about this over on thier boards two days ago because a poster didn't like that I said its insulting to gamers that WOTC changes the text on how drow look. He answered later on with, "Well how do we know what they look like on the surface, maybe thier skin changes color in the sun."
Does this mean the drow sunning himself in the Player's Guide to Faerun is patiently waiting for his color to change on the surface so he can confuse his enemies?
I can see a future product will have a table somewhat like the following:
Drow Color Change. Roll d% to see what color your drow character's skin changes once exposed to the sun
1-10%: White as white can be
11-20%: No change, blame your DM
21-30%: Firehouse red
31-40%: Bright orange. Your character must immediately take on the Crossing Guard prestige class if you receive this result.
41-50%: Aquamarine. Your character immediately gains five followers called Kyan, Ted, Carson, Jai, and Thom, all of whom immediately wish to give advice on fashion, grooming, and care of your personal weapon.
etc...
That'll be the day I burn my FR books and finally give up on Ed's wonderful world. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 21:58:46
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
That'll be the day I burn my FR books and finally give up on Ed's wonderful world.
What's scary is if Hasbro could get such a tie-in, I'm inclined to believe they might pull something like that.
Somewhere right now a designer is thinking, "Carson would make a good Paladin of Sune wouldn't he?"  |
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Fireheart
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 22:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Is it too much to ask that cover artists research the characters within the book before they begin their work? .
I know this probably won't change most people's opinions but I thought I'd share something I know.
Background: I help run SF Conventions so have had the opportunity to work with and talk to many artists and authors. This is my understanding of the artwork cover situation.
Unfortunately, a lot of cover art is ordered while the books are still being written. Many artists are not given the actual story line or even the universe and so have only the basic description given to them by the editor/publisher to go on. There are a myriad of authors whose cover artwork does not neccessarily fit the story but few of them (the authors) have any actual say in what is put on the cover. I am sure if you asked Jeff, Larry or possibly even Todd, you may find that they may not have even been told which book the cover was for, that the character was Drizz't, or the only description they may have been given was - drow, wielding two scimitars. A lot of times the request for cover art may come from the Editor or Publisher who may not even give the description of the characters to the artist, they may just give a scene.
Many artists for other novels (not neccesarily a shared world) are only given the barest outline of a story and a description for a cover and have to do a painting for that story in a limited amount of time. (In addition to whatever other work they are currently involved in, they may not have time to read the stories that came before.)
(I don't wish to disagree with anyone or make any one angry; I don't particular care for the random character look change either (see Mara Jade on Tim Zahn's novels) but I wanted to share what may be some of the reasoning behind it.)
~Fireheart |
I believe in what I see/I believe in what I hear/I believe that what I'm feeling/Changes how the world appears
-Rush "Totem" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 05:46:40
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Fine, then let the artists talk to the authors about what the characters look like. Problem solved.
And while your explanation does make sense, it doesn't cover all the discrepancies. For example, Halruaan skyships had been described, in detail, long before the first Shining South was published. And yet we got a ship slung under a blimp... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 09:50:49
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Yes, I agree. While the artist's perspective that Fireheart has so kindly provided us with does make things clearer, it certainly doesn't address all the problems.
This is difficult to understand, because I know for a fact that when WotC direct the artists involved for creating new images for any new MTG cards, the artists are regularly a part of setting discussions and brain-storms on the various fluff aspects of the MTG world. At the very least, these artists are provided with a three sentence brief about what the plot developers and writers are looking for. Above all, continuity in imagery must be maintained.
It seems that lack of communication is at the root of the problem here. Now, if WotC used a method similar to what they use when developing new MTG cards, in other words, when developing new D&D game accessories and/or novels, perhaps imagery problems like the Giant Space Hamster just mentioned, could well be avoided .
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:01:37
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I've long known some, and suspected the rest, of what Fireheart said. And I firmly believe that you have to have two-way communication when you're using this sort of thing. When I drew two scenes and three maps for one of my brother's stories a while back (the map he was using was pitiful!) I got him to describe things, and changed what he wanted. Of course, I did want to keep several things (for instance, I drew three roads that intersected at a point south of where the characters were, even though they never went there, because he specifically used the plural -- yet he didn't like it for some reason), so we had a few discussions, but mostly it was what he wanted.
I even made a wonderful version using Paint . . . that, unfortunately, I had to give up, because it was larger than what could be put on a floppy, and when the computer got traded in because of bugs, I lost it. (Yes, I know it could have been spit up and reasembled, but I wasn't even as poorly experienced with it then as I am now.) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:10:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You actually created something worthwhile using Paint... Now that is impressive.
 Yes, it is...*guides Bookwyrm here*. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:18:19
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Well, it was the only program I could use. But yes, it was very good. Spent about two and a half months on it. I was rather, ah, annoyed at giving it up. I've thought several times of going back and doing it again, but I just haven't done it.
As for other creations, I've made several things. That was my best, but I also have two portraits of two professors (at the time, I was using a borrowed laptop with a touch-screen, so I could "draw" them as they lectured) and another map of a story of my own (this time a scifi story that showed the linking of "hyperspace" portals in the local galaxy, where distance is described by the number of portals, not normal space). |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Yes, it is...*guides Bookwyrm here*.
Complicated . . . . |
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Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:36:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Yes, it is...*guides Bookwyrm here*.
Complicated . . . .
It's not really, you just have to understand the principles of design behind the program.
I've talked to the guys involved in that project though, back when they were still finishing for ideas on a programming community that I frequent. It's a good product, but I'd wait for the update that's coming. It's much easier to interface with your existing system, especially if you use Windows.
The best thing about the update though, is that it won't crash unexpectedly...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:44:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
...and another map of a story of my own (this time a scifi story that showed the linking of "hyperspace" portals in the local galaxy, where distance is described by the number of portals, not normal space).
I forgot to ask before but, it sounds like there's some interesting theory behind that method of transportation. Care to expand upon it for those of us with an interest in such things?. Maybe in private conversation perhaps?.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:50:29
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I can give you a short summery (via ethereal mail, of course) of the idea behind it, if you'd like.
As for images, I'm not much more experienced than working Paint. A friend of mine is working on the special effects side of our Star Wars brickfilm, and so he's more knowledgable about these things. I'm not sure exactly what programs he uses, but I do know "Axagon" (or something like that) is one of them. I don't know if that's what he's using for lightsabers, though.
So, is this something that someone who's only cut his teeth on Paint could do? If it is, I might use it for some Realms ideas down the road. I'd like to do a few maps sometime. (Plus, my mention of that ought to keep Alaundo at bay for a bit longer.  ) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 10:56:48
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A short summary will be fine, thank you. Just remember to send it to the Lady K's ethereal mail box .
Axagon, and it's derivative programs are good. I've used them before to create a few images in my FR campaigns. I once even used it to create visual representations which simulate a spell from a third-party sourcebook that I picked up. Inside was a spell (which assumes a world where magic and psionics are intertwined) that projects telepathic messages visually. This program helped me create these images, as well as pictures that were also a part of the message.
It's great component for use in your campaigns . If you ever get your website up and running, I'd like to see what you may one day come up with.
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Edited by - The Sage on 30 Apr 2004 11:01:02 |
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cover page Drizzt phenomenon
