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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2503 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 22:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Didn't Ed said it was Midnight but with full access to the memories of Mystra and Mystryl, and that Midnight somehow fears Mystryl, cuz she is a primal being?
I theorize this means Mystryl wasn't a human god before but something else, more Creator Races-thingy; and that Midnight must have unlocked access to the memories of that pre-human Mystryl before she was changed into a human goddess by the beliefs of the Netherese.
Anyways, I like your theories, but I would downplay Leira's role a bit, lol. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12081 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 23:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Didn't Ed said it was Midnight but with full access to the memories of Mystra and Mystryl, and that Midnight somehow fears Mystryl, cuz she is a primal being?
I theorize this means Mystryl wasn't a human god before but something else, more Creator Races-thingy; and that Midnight must have unlocked access to the memories of that pre-human Mystryl before she was changed into a human goddess by the beliefs of the Netherese.
Anyways, I like your theories, but I would downplay Leira's role a bit, lol.
I've kind of gotten the feel that what they want is a nebulous "its a mixture". I like the idea that its a mixture of all 4 (including the Simbul) and that there's a quixotic control issue going on. She might lash out in anger at those who threaten magic. In essence this opens up the option for other gods of magic to take on a more prominent role. I also put more "gods of magic" in that role, with the standard 4 (Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon) then joined by some others (Deneir as a god of glyphs, spellbooks, scrolls, etc.. the Red Knight as a goddess of spell strategy... Karsus as a god of metamagic, sorcery, and blood related magic... Malyk as a drow god of wild and destructive magic<the original Malyk restored from Talos, not Talos> … Finder as a god of song magic... )
Yeah, I do love me some Leira. Honestly though, most of my theories could be written up when I think about it as "X god does Y and needs Leira to help disguise it". So, like when the Tome of Fastrin the Delver needs to be created to cover the ritual creation of a giant glyph with dread rings, that might be the work of Deneir, but then Leira helps turn it into something that fools Tam. I'm also fascinated with Mask and Leira working together, though possibly occasionally turning things to themselves at the other's expense. I picture them as lovers to a degree, but both being a bit selfish. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 03:16:49
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Master Rupert,
Well, I am trying my best to stick to the earlier stuff. :)
I am sure yours will turn out well with the Eminence of Araunt though. :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 04:19:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm actually considering the Eminence of Araunt, myself.
Doesn't work. He changed prior to the spellplague. That's why I say its the curse from the artifact the death moon orb. Note the wording, it doesn't say that Tam is immune, just that he won't perish because he's already undead. Its an artifact's curse too, so its not unbelievable that Tam would be affected. Perhaps in 1374 when he starts killing his fellow Zulkirs and the civil war starts, he has finally been fully affected and his "slide" to chaotic evil has occurred from NE to CE.
From Death Moon Orb
Curse. The alignment of the user of the Orb eventually shifts to
chaotic evil. The Orb also compels its user to greater and greater acts of evil until the user is infamous as a monster of complete wickedness and cruelty. Such individuals invariably perish in some fashion unless, like Tam and Larloch, they continue on as undead creatures and care not what others think of them.
BTW, every time I hear the name "death moon orb"... I am compelled to wonder at the name itself. I have a feeling that it can be related to the shadow weave and Shar and possibly to the tears of Selune and possibly also the myth of Shar/Selune/Mystryl being created. The fact that it exploded during the Spellplague, when Mystra died and Shar tried to take on the weave but lost the shadow weave... it just works for me that the whole death moon orb being given to Tam by a Chosen of Mystryl and that the Tome of Fastrin the Delver being some embodiment of Leira over a ritual to attune the athora to a weakened Mystra to enable her to return to the world (or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Ah, but perhaps the Eminence had found Toril prior to the Spellplague. Perhaps the Eminence had even originated on Toril…
Sure, there's nothing that backs that up, but I like the idea. Really, the Eminence of Araunt was one of my fave concepts from the 4E era, though I never quite figured out how I'd respin them. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 04:26:59
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It randomly occurred to me today that there is a lot of focus on the DEAD Three, and not the Returned Three or Risen Three or anything like that... It's making me think that -- as I suggested earlier -- they didn't actually come back as deities, but only as avatars.
In fact... I've theorized for a while that Bane 2.0 is actually Xvim, masquerading as his father. What if the Dead Three are avatars of Xvim, another angle to get more power?
Or... As much as I don't like him, Cyric is likely the better candidate, here. The Dead Three are a way for him to continue to act in the world, with plausible deniability. |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1046 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 07:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Doesn't work. He changed prior to the spellplague. That's why I say its the curse from the artifact the death moon orb. Note the wording, it doesn't say that Tam is immune, just that he won't perish because he's already undead. Its an artifact's curse too, so its not unbelievable that Tam would be affected. Perhaps in 1374 when he starts killing his fellow Zulkirs and the civil war starts, he has finally been fully affected and his "slide" to chaotic evil has occurred from NE to CE.
BTW, every time I hear the name "death moon orb"... I am compelled to wonder at the name itself. I have a feeling that it can be related to the shadow weave and Shar and possibly to the tears of Selune and possibly also the myth of Shar/Selune/Mystryl being created. The fact that it exploded during the Spellplague, when Mystra died and Shar tried to take on the weave but lost the shadow weave... it just works for me that the whole death moon orb being given to Tam by a Chosen of Mystryl and that the Tome of Fastrin the Delver being some embodiment of Leira over a ritual to attune the athora to a weakened Mystra to enable her to return to the world (or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Sounds like Larloch played Tam for a fool. He gives Tam two artifacts to enslave the demon lord Eltab. Then the Death Moon Orb (which Larloch created) warps Tam's mind. Sounds to me Larloch was grooming Acquisition Lich #61 for his Spellweb. The #61 is notional of course.
Larloch then gets control of an eastern nation and a demon lord through his control of Tam. He can now excavate (renovate?) his old enclave of Jikisdur, which fell in eastern Faerun to the rough northeast of Thay.
Through Tam's control of Eltab, Larloch can enslave all those trapped demons in the Narfell ruins, and he gets two layers of concealment to boot. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 16:12:04
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Maybe it wasn't Larloch trying to control Tam... Maybe there was something else in the artifact -- even the artifact itself -- and for his own reasons, Larloch handed the artifact over knowing that Tam wouldn't be able to withstand it.
I don't see Larloch trying to add Tam to his stable, though... I'm more inclined to think that Larloch simply had his own reasons for destabilizing Thay. |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1046 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 16:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it wasn't Larloch trying to control Tam... Maybe there was something else in the artifact -- even the artifact itself -- and for his own reasons, Larloch handed the artifact over knowing that Tam wouldn't be able to withstand it.
I don't see Larloch trying to add Tam to his stable, though... I'm more inclined to think that Larloch simply had his own reasons for destabilizing Thay.
Now you got me curious both about the artifact and Larloch's stance toward Thay, which need not be mutually exclusive. Do you think Larloch may have wanted to absorb the wards in Eltabrannar like he did with Candlekeep and tried with Myth Drannor?
Still pondering the Eminence of Araunt. Besides Tam, the Eminence still would have to contend with Larloch and his gang, the Twisted Rune, and I would also add Shoon VII.
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 21:34:37
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Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Well, it wouldn't be the first time that Tam has been made a fool of, haha. Velsharoon got to godhood. ;)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12081 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 21:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it wasn't Larloch trying to control Tam... Maybe there was something else in the artifact -- even the artifact itself -- and for his own reasons, Larloch handed the artifact over knowing that Tam wouldn't be able to withstand it.
I don't see Larloch trying to add Tam to his stable, though... I'm more inclined to think that Larloch simply had his own reasons for destabilizing Thay.
Now you got me curious both about the artifact and Larloch's stance toward Thay, which need not be mutually exclusive. Do you think Larloch may have wanted to absorb the wards in Eltabrannar like he did with Candlekeep and tried with Myth Drannor?
Still pondering the Eminence of Araunt. Besides Tam, the Eminence still would have to contend with Larloch and his gang, the Twisted Rune, and I would also add Shoon VII.
Or that he himself was hoping Tam would free Eltab from where he was bound (which was tied to the Athora and the abyssal section that's merged there as well) because Larloch himself hoped to do SOMETHING with the athora himself. His end goals don't need to be "for Mystryl"... and yes, even Larloch could have been getting played by the powers that be OR just have not had the full measure of what's there any more than anyone else. Misdirection and lack of information goes a long way. Main thing, I definitely see the change and it appears to have occurred around the time that Velsharoon ascended and is also around the time that Tam and Larloch supposedly met and Larloch gave Tam items.
When it comes down to THAT, we don't know, Tam may have known Velsharoon was close. Maybe he had goals to send Eltab against Velsharoon prior to Vel's ascension, OR he simply needed to calm down his fellow Zulkirs so he wasn't having to watch for their dagger in his back. Maybe he got jealous AFTER Vel ascended and got reckless. One thing I will note is that Velsharoon by having become a rebel Thayan a few centuries prior was lacking a lot of attention on himself and his goals and thus had a freer hand to move than Tam himself, making Velsharoon more agile prior to his ascension. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 21:44:28
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Great Reader sleyvas,
I always give credence to Larloch before Tam. I could see Larloch doing that and Tam not having any ability to do anything to stop it.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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5e - Dead Three and Ao's Bargain
