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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 14:35:17
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Cyric also ascended relatively recently, certainly long after the events of the myth in the Complete Book of Necromancers. The likely culprit is probably Myrkul.
Also, Vermissa in that same book seems to have been converted to Velsharoon's worship in recent years, since her picture appears near Velsharoon's entry in Powers and Pantheons.
Also, the actual Nergal, the god, is still alive and well in the Planes. It's only his Realms avatar that got shanked. He recently murdered Enki, IIRC. The demon lord Nergal seems to be entirely separate, much like the archdevil Nergal.
There are a lot of Nergals.
Or one nergal that was somehow split into pieces/shards that all took different paths (that idea just occurring to me). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 20:20:17
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Master LordofBones,
I believe your point about Cyric being so new to the scene is a really valid one. He's still in god diapers trying to figure it all out.
As to Vermissa, I agree. Page 79 of the P&P has her likeness right next to the 7th level spell, Velsharoon's Death Pact. No small coincidence, I am sure.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1046 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 01:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As with anything related to Cyric, I consider that story just a blatant lie no worth any time pondering about, lol.
Speaking about blatant lies, has anyone heard about the current status of the Cyrinishad? Last I heard, Oghma entrusted the book to the scribe Rinda's custody and Torm had his paladin Gwydion find and guard Rinda. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 04:14:57
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| I'm relatively sure they were both murdered during the events of Crucible by Malik, Cyric's Seraph. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 18:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master LordofBones,
I believe your point about Cyric being so new to the scene is a really valid one. He's still in god diapers trying to figure it all out.
As to Vermissa, I agree. Page 79 of the P&P has her likeness right next to the 7th level spell, Velsharoon's Death Pact. No small coincidence, I am sure.
Best regards,
Just a personal aside... totally non-canon... at one point I was trying to write up Velsharoon's LIVING history (i.e. before he became a god). I was basically having Velsharoon being a triple classed spellcaster under 3e rules, which gave him a very slow rise to power, but at the upper levels became a great build. I was mixing him with wizard (not specialized)/dread necromancer/binder with anima mage and ultimate magus. Anyway, the concept I had was that he had learned to be a dread necromancer at a young age by visiting the Isle of Sahu and learning from Vermissa while she was still captured. I also played with the idea of "what would Vermissa be under 3.5e rules", and I liked the idea of her being a triple classed spellcaster as well with wizard(necro)/dread necromancer/archivist (and mystic theurge/true necromancer/ultimate magus prestige classes... I forget how I got the death domain for her, but somehow I did), but I had her much higher in level in mind than she was in the original works. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 05:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master LordofBones,
I believe your point about Cyric being so new to the scene is a really valid one. He's still in god diapers trying to figure it all out.
As to Vermissa, I agree. Page 79 of the P&P has her likeness right next to the 7th level spell, Velsharoon's Death Pact. No small coincidence, I am sure.
Best regards,
Just a personal aside... totally non-canon... at one point I was trying to write up Velsharoon's LIVING history (i.e. before he became a god). I was basically having Velsharoon being a triple classed spellcaster under 3e rules, which gave him a very slow rise to power, but at the upper levels became a great build. I was mixing him with wizard (not specialized)/dread necromancer/binder with anima mage and ultimate magus. Anyway, the concept I had was that he had learned to be a dread necromancer at a young age by visiting the Isle of Sahu and learning from Vermissa while she was still captured. I also played with the idea of "what would Vermissa be under 3.5e rules", and I liked the idea of her being a triple classed spellcaster as well with wizard(necro)/dread necromancer/archivist (and mystic theurge/true necromancer/ultimate magus prestige classes... I forget how I got the death domain for her, but somehow I did), but I had her much higher in level in mind than she was in the original works.
Somewhat interestingly, Thasmudyan's title, King of Worms, is the same epithet given to a necromancer from another setting; the high elf lich Mannimarco from the Elder Scrolls.
Interestingly enough, Mannimarco's story parallels Velsharoon's. Both powerful necromancers exiled from their original lands (Mannimarco was banished from the Isle of Artaeum, Velsharoon from Thay) with high placed rivals (Mannimarco's chief foe would later go on to set up the Mages Guild and become the first archmage, everyone knows Velsharoon and Szass Tam's animosity), both would later develop many necromantic techniques (Mannimarco is basically the Father of modern necromancy, Velsharoon delved into studing undeath and developing spells based on the abilities of undead creatures...which means he's the possible creator of enervation and wail of the banshee), and both eventually rose to godhood. Both also seek to promote themselves at the expense of the local death god; Velsharoon promotes black necromancy and the creation of undead creatures, while Mannimarco actively blocks Arkay's influence over protecting the bodies of the dead from reanimation.
Also, in his later years Mannimarco was fairly eccentric; he summons the player character of Daggerfall, his debut game, by sending a skeleton to stuff a letter in their mouth.
Also, both got hit by severe cases of badass decay. Velsharoon gets killed offscreen, Mannimarco is reduced to a barefoot elf in a robe; but they both seem to have gotten better. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 08:23:20
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Learned Scribe Delnyn,
I believe it was thrown into the moat. It was of course able to kill anything entering it, so a safe place for such a thing.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 08:26:18
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Master LordofBones,
Indeed they were killed, sort of at least. Rinda impaled herself upon Malik's dagger when lunged at him in the nude after Malik woke her up. That was after Malik had nearly decapitated Gwydion. However, not only did Gwydion not need to sleep, he apparently couldn't die permanently, or until Kelemvor was done with him as his head kept flopping around.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 08:32:12
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Great Reader sleyvas,
That makes a lot of sense with the triple class. I mean, he was not as powerful as Szass Tam, and he knew it. So, when he was able to make the Ritual of Endless Night happen, he did. It was the only way to show Szass up.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 12:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
That makes a lot of sense with the triple class. I mean, he was not as powerful as Szass Tam, and he knew it. So, when he was able to make the Ritual of Endless Night happen, he did. It was the only way to show Szass up.
Best regards,
Interestingly, in 2e he's statted out as a 29th level necromancer. What seems to have been the dealbreaker was Tam's lichdom and artifacts giving him that extra edge.
By the time Velsharoon began delving into studying divinity, he could very well have been the more powerful of the two. He didn't have his infamous staff in Thay, after all, and it's only after he left that he was noted to have developed many new necromantic spells based on the special attacks of undead creatures; I believe he developed them while trying to reverse-engineer Szass Tam's lichdom and exploit weaknesses, or trying to nullify Szass's own weaknesses.
Coming back and overthrowing Tam with spells that liches are meant to be immune to would have been quite the feather in his cap, if he'd managed to pull it off. I quite like the idea of the the Zulkirs swallowing their pride and approaching the clergy of Velsharoon, asking for the god's help and having to deal with his smug avatar, and then Szass's plans getting derailed when Velsharoon intercepts his summoning spell and drags the whole lot of them to Mungoth.
Velsharoon: "Why, hello old friend. How many centuries has it been since you drove me out of my homeland?" |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 16:50:58
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Master LorfofBones,
Great point. I completely forgot about that entry in FRA1, Hall of the High Kings. It is weird, though as I think you might have said with Shoon VII being 36th level, it's possible the editions are just screwing up what would be a more sensible differential between Tam and Velsharoon.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 22:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
That makes a lot of sense with the triple class. I mean, he was not as powerful as Szass Tam, and he knew it. So, when he was able to make the Ritual of Endless Night happen, he did. It was the only way to show Szass up.
Best regards,
Actually, by that point, I wouldn't say that he couldn't show Szass up. At the lower levels (say like 16) he was running around with a lot of abilities, but all lower in level. He only had to do a single level dip in binder (took a feat to do that) and a single level dip in dread necromancer. Then between anima mage and ultimate magus he was building all 3 classes (though binder never went beyond like level 11 binder). He also employed persistent spell and a lot of metamagic chicanery. So, he was prepared for a lot, and very defensive. Once he passed 20 the triple classing started to pay off. The build I had him with was as a level 32, and I figured if he could raise himself to be a god then this wasn't unbelievable.
Velsharoon the Vaunted, Lord of the Forsaken Crypt
5th wiz (note: 5th lvl gained after epic) / 1st dread necro/ 10th ultimate magus / 1st binder / 10th anima mage / 3rd loremaster / 2nd archmage
Honestly, I don't give Tam a lot of credit. His nemesis (Velsharoon) ascends to godhood over the very school of magic that Tam is "Zulkir" of. So, Velsharoon had had to leave the country a few centuries ago, but he turned the tables on Tam. Velsharoon may have even have personally contacted Tam after ascending... and maybe that's why Tam accepted a cursed artifact from Larloch like 3 years later that seemingly drove him crazy and acting like a megalomaniac. Tam then chased a ritual that I'm still not convinced would let him remake the world. I half wonder if he wasn't duped into enacting a ritual that drained the power of a major artifact in Thay and drain it into the weave (possibly kicking off the restoration of Mystra)…. because maybe the Tome of Fastrin the Delver was a huge lie set out as a "contingency" (possibly involving multiple gods of magic.... Mystra, Savras, Leira, and maybe even Deneir). Maybe even the reason Mystra told her Chosen to not turn on the red wizards had to do with her setting up this contingency. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 22:42:27
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Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Actually, by that point, I wouldn't say that he couldn't show Szass up.
I concur there. That is what I was saying to Master LordofBones. When I agreed with him, I was referring to exactly what you provided in great detail with Velsharoon's split focus on levels. It looks good, and is good, for RP, but for mechanical functionality, it is weak. Very weak. Szass Tam, before Velsharoon became a Demipower, would have been smoked by Szass Tam.
Out of curiosity, where did you get those detailed Velsharoon stats?
quote:
Honestly, I don't give Tam a lot of credit. His nemesis (Velsharoon) ascends to godhood over the very school of magic that Tam is "Zulkir" of.
I do. He stuck to his guns, he just screwed up with being so focused on that, and keeping Velsharoon down, that he didn't see another route for Velsharoon, which he did find and ended up ascending. I think it just means that the weaker guy found a weak link to hit Szass Tam with and it paid off. I still think Szass Tam is doing, for his own purposes, but he did lose the deity war, which is quite ironic.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2503 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 00:25:22
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Wasn't Velsharoon already a god when Zalathorm (himself weaker than Szass Tam) kicked his sorry ass so hard he was still sore when the Simbul kicked his ass again?
I mean, becoming a god not always mean that the individual is powerful. Most gods of the pre-Dawn Cataclysm age were either sponsored (Torm, the Red Knight, Azuth, Velsharoon himself) or were at the right place at the right time (Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor). As far as I know, no god in the current age of the Realms has ascended to godhood on their own power. And then, there is the fact that not all mortals want to become a god in the Realms, with Ao bossing them around all the time... I don't see the likes of Larloch or Tam wanting that kind of life, despite the lure of the power of a god... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Mar 2020 00:28:39 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 10:18:17
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Velsharoon and Zalathorm have never fought, and the most we have is that Szass drove Velsharoon from Thay, which isn't surprising as Tam had the advantage of two major artifacts and his innate lichdom while Velsharoon was still mortal. We don't even know if he fought the Simbul or died during Mystra's death and had his corpse crash into Aglarond.
The more chilling thought is that in that instant of Mystra's death, he pulled a grand theft me on the distracted Simbul, who no longer had her goddess's protection, and let his physical form be destroyed. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 13:12:52
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Actually, by that point, I wouldn't say that he couldn't show Szass up.
I concur there. That is what I was saying to Master LordofBones. When I agreed with him, I was referring to exactly what you provided in great detail with Velsharoon's split focus on levels. It looks good, and is good, for RP, but for mechanical functionality, it is weak. Very weak. Szass Tam, before Velsharoon became a Demipower, would have been smoked by Szass Tam.
Out of curiosity, where did you get those detailed Velsharoon stats?
quote:
Honestly, I don't give Tam a lot of credit. His nemesis (Velsharoon) ascends to godhood over the very school of magic that Tam is "Zulkir" of.
I do. He stuck to his guns, he just screwed up with being so focused on that, and keeping Velsharoon down, that he didn't see another route for Velsharoon, which he did find and ended up ascending. I think it just means that the weaker guy found a weak link to hit Szass Tam with and it paid off. I still think Szass Tam is doing, for his own purposes, but he did lose the deity war, which is quite ironic.
Best regards,
Yeah, you didn't get what I was saying. I don't think Tam would have smoked him as a mortal. Those stats were my own. They weren't his demipower stats (which would have been more powerful than a level 32 character in my book... I view even the most minor god as more powerful than most archmages, but not necessarily by much, and even a pair of said archmages banding together might give a god a severe run for his money). We also differ on our viewpoint of Tam himself. My personal view is that prior to being infected by the cursed artifact, he was intelligent and contemplative, but after that... he's still very intelligent mind you... but some of his core motivations have been twisted and he's not the original Szass Tam anymore that we saw in the Dreams of the Red Wizards boxed set. The shifts were subtle at first to an outsider, and thus most don't even know the source of the issue. Non-canon, but I really feel it works. There could even be a "redemption" story arc in which he somehow removes the effects of the curse and returns to his old nasty but not totally megalomaniacal self. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 13:31:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Wasn't Velsharoon already a god when Zalathorm (himself weaker than Szass Tam) kicked his sorry ass so hard he was still sore when the Simbul kicked his ass again?
I mean, becoming a god not always mean that the individual is powerful. Most gods of the pre-Dawn Cataclysm age were either sponsored (Torm, the Red Knight, Azuth, Velsharoon himself) or were at the right place at the right time (Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor). As far as I know, no god in the current age of the Realms has ascended to godhood on their own power. And then, there is the fact that not all mortals want to become a god in the Realms, with Ao bossing them around all the time... I don't see the likes of Larloch or Tam wanting that kind of life, despite the lure of the power of a god...
Velsharoon and Zalathorm never fought. Velsharoon and the "red wizards" were forced from Halruaa prior to the formation of the red wizards of Thay. Even then he wasn't beat, but he foresaw a lot of Halruaan archmages also coming after him (and again, this would have been while his build wasn't the greatest... so he was weak). We don't know when he was born, and this might have been when he was in his 40's or so. He still has 5 and a half centuries before he ascends to godhood from this point. He may have even have been still not in his epic levels yet. These expatriate Halruaans then went on to help found Thay.
827 DR Year of the Sacrifi ced Fortune
The wizard Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa engages a Red Wizard named Velsharoon in a spectacular magical battle in the skies over the Shaar. The contest ends in a draw.
At some point afterward, Velsharoon was forced from Thay. I view this to be around the time of the Zulkirate getting formed and that Velsharoon actually lived several centuries without resorting to undeath. George Krashos developed some works on this which I like on the early history of Thay (there are portions of it that I'd like to modify like having Zhengyi and Jorgmacdon actually coming from Narfellian heritage, and maybe having some of the lore on Tam being thousands of years old being falsified propaganda... the one major change I'd make would be basically Ythazz Buvarr being a lich already and HIM being involved with Thayd long ago and that interacting with the athora advanced him from lich to demilich. I'd also have Ythazz having been STUCK in his phylactery for centuries at a time and that he was freed by Velsharoon. This makes more sense to me than Tam having been involved with Thayd long ago.) in "Tyrants in Scarlet". I recommend reading it, because I personally view Tam's magical ritual to "remake the world" as basically draining the "athora" mentioned in that article. To note, I also believe there are other similar powerful artifacts buried beneath portions of Thay, such as one tied somehow to Kossuth beneath Amruthar…. so the athora wasn't everything. This artifact beneath Amruthar "went quiet" after the ToT, but after the spellplague it "lit up" again since the 4e campaign set has the town on fire. Gaining "control" over this artifact could make a great campaign in modern day and might help the rebels who oppose Tam and might help return Thay back to its fiery roots.
P.S. in the above, I know some people may scream because I proposed some slight changes to George's ideas in Tyrants in Scarlet. I think we can all agree here that every sage has their own views, and I must also stress that I REALLY like this work except for a couple minor changes to give a little limelight to other famous wizards and also allow for some alternate developments for them (such as Ythazz Buvarr, Zhengyi, etc...). Oh, and I have plans for Jorgmacdon as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Mar 2020 13:41:46 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2503 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 14:02:57
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I see. It seems I was confusing stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gaining "control" over this artifact could make a great campaign in modern day and might help the rebels who oppose Tam and might help return Thay back to its fiery roots.
Or help Tam to maintain the only evil land that is not an "evil magocracy of slavers #56" in the Realms safe from those pesky rebels... 
Anyways, I don't think the athora is necessary for the ritual, because there is no athora in Neverwinter, and before Tam tried to do his ritual in Thay, he attempted it in Neverwinter, but was stopped by the plot-armored Drizzt and friends. See the Neverwinter trilogy from the Drizzt's saga.
Granted, Neverwinter also has its own super source of energy (Maegera the Inferno), but this only implies that the ritual needs a huge source of energy, not that the athora is key to it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Mar 2020 14:03:39 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 15:01:06
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Great Reader sleyvas,
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I see your point. I agree about what you said regarding Velsharoon in that case.
As to Tam's "redemption" I get your point there. Perhaps a storyline that gets him some of his good old fashioned common-sense back, as opposed to redemption? hahaha ;)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 23:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I see. It seems I was confusing stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gaining "control" over this artifact could make a great campaign in modern day and might help the rebels who oppose Tam and might help return Thay back to its fiery roots.
Or help Tam to maintain the only evil land that is not an "evil magocracy of slavers #56" in the Realms safe from those pesky rebels...
Anyways, I don't think the athora is necessary for the ritual, because there is no athora in Neverwinter, and before Tam tried to do his ritual in Thay, he attempted it in Neverwinter, but was stopped by the plot-armored Drizzt and friends. See the Neverwinter trilogy from the Drizzt's saga.
Granted, Neverwinter also has its own super source of energy (Maegera the Inferno), but this only implies that the ritual needs a huge source of energy, not that the athora is key to it.
Totally agree on the "needs a huge source of energy" thing. The athora was just one example that was supposed to be really huge. I picture the thing (well primordial) below Neverwinter (that spawned Volcanos and kept the city thawed even in winter) being of a higher power level than the "artifact" that I'm saying exists beneath Amruthar. Then again, the artifact beneath Amruthar and the "athora" may be actually related and may have just become "unusable" by the ritual because they became "attuned" to Mystra via the ritual (and therefore they can't be accessed by Tam anymore). In fact, maybe the "key" to the ritual is some kind of strong primordial fire energy source (because the artifact beneath Amruthar DOES have strong ties to Kossuth).
Speaking on THAT.... I wouldn't be surprised if Tam actually becomes interested in Maztica... specifically the Lopango, Land of Fire, peninsula. Since I did put a tharch in that area, that could make for an interesting little plot (especially since the areas that I've put them also have volcanos). We know from GHotR that this area was favored by Bazim-Gorag as well, who was and is an entity with links to fire. Thank you for discussing this with me, because now it has my mind spinning. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 16:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Bane resurrected himself in 3e under his own power, so why he wanted a demotion from the nigh omnipotence of greater deity hood is beyond me.
I do not believe that the 5e team even bothered to think of a good reason, they just thought it cool to have those three as fightable "mortal deities" and that was all the reason they needed.
So look forward to fight and kill them in BG4 or one of the BG3 expansions |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1570 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 01:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I see your point. I agree about what you said regarding Velsharoon in that case.
As to Tam's "redemption" I get your point there. Perhaps a storyline that gets him some of his good old fashioned common-sense back, as opposed to redemption? hahaha ;)
Best regards,
Maybe one where Szass Tam actually fulfills his original goals? Instead of being an Arthas knockoff, Tam manages to reunite Thay into a juggernaut...and then finds that he's desperately bored, so appoints a successor and vanishes.
Legend has it that Szass Tam still walks the streets of Thay in disguise, keeping watch over his people and brutally murdering anyone who threatens the internal strength and unity of That. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 15:30:22
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Senior Scribe Mirtek,
Sadly, you are quite likely right. Sad, and pathetic, if true, and likely so.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 15:32:22
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Master LordofBones,
I could see him doing the murdering thing to keep it going.
That being said, I don't think he'd get bored. I think he would want to expand, make more of a name for himself, and from there with the name recognition, try to ascend and get Velsharoon out of the game. haha It would be cool if that happened.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 17:46:07
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I see your point. I agree about what you said regarding Velsharoon in that case.
As to Tam's "redemption" I get your point there. Perhaps a storyline that gets him some of his good old fashioned common-sense back, as opposed to redemption? hahaha ;)
Best regards,
Maybe one where Szass Tam actually fulfills his original goals? Instead of being an Arthas knockoff, Tam manages to reunite Thay into a juggernaut...and then finds that he's desperately bored, so appoints a successor and vanishes.
Legend has it that Szass Tam still walks the streets of Thay in disguise, keeping watch over his people and brutally murdering anyone who threatens the internal strength and unity of That.
I've been wondering, of late, if it was really Szass Tam behind everything. Maybe something happened to him, and everything we saw was either an imposter or a magically-controlled Tam. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 18:18:11
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Master Rupert,
I kind of like the idea of some sneaky stuff having happened, as long as there is a good story behind it, and not just a removal of yet one more character because they are trying to reduce lore in 5e. ;)
Cool idea though.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:08:51
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| My thinking is that it wasn't Tam, because it was rather a shift from the way he acted in prior editions. Sure, he could have been building up to something, but I think it's more fun to have some other power be the reason he was suddenly acting differently. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:24:19
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Master Rupert,
Velsharoon...
Irony.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 20:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm actually considering the Eminence of Araunt, myself.
Doesn't work. He changed prior to the spellplague. That's why I say its the curse from the artifact the death moon orb. Note the wording, it doesn't say that Tam is immune, just that he won't perish because he's already undead. Its an artifact's curse too, so its not unbelievable that Tam would be affected. Perhaps in 1374 when he starts killing his fellow Zulkirs and the civil war starts, he has finally been fully affected and his "slide" to chaotic evil has occurred from NE to CE.
From Death Moon Orb
Curse. The alignment of the user of the Orb eventually shifts to
chaotic evil. The Orb also compels its user to greater and greater acts of evil until the user is infamous as a monster of complete wickedness and cruelty. Such individuals invariably perish in some fashion unless, like Tam and Larloch, they continue on as undead creatures and care not what others think of them.
BTW, every time I hear the name "death moon orb"... I am compelled to wonder at the name itself. I have a feeling that it can be related to the shadow weave and Shar and possibly to the tears of Selune and possibly also the myth of Shar/Selune/Mystryl being created. The fact that it exploded during the Spellplague, when Mystra died and Shar tried to take on the weave but lost the shadow weave... it just works for me that the whole death moon orb being given to Tam by a Chosen of Mystryl and that the Tome of Fastrin the Delver being some embodiment of Leira over a ritual to attune the athora to a weakened Mystra to enable her to return to the world (or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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5e - Dead Three and Ao's Bargain
