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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 03:38:53
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Sfdragon, do you really have to bring up real world and visibly political issues, into this thread? Especially one so very little connected? If you want to discuss Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Candlekeep Forum isn't really a place for it.
Or are you just trying to further derail this discussion ? As it starts to come of as such.
Can't we really return to discussing LGBT+ elements in the Realms various societies and cultures?
Like Icelander's very interesting idea Vremyonni could be interpreted as a third gender among Rashemi.
[EDIT]
Ok sfdragon, I thank you for removing the part (and now comment) about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. It was just really of topic. |
Edited by - Baltas on 28 Jul 2020 04:17:02 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 04:57:07
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Earlier I brought up the fluidity of the Seldarine. This has been in canon for a while, though it is nothing new, though they usually appear in literature as one or the other.
I had a lot of problems with MToF. It changed a lot of elven and drow lore, and I ha e ranted about it extensively lol. However, the book did keep the gender fluidity of the Seldarine, and I would like to quote a passage (probably the only passage I really like in the whole book lol):
Sehanine is Corellon's beloved; Corellon is Sehanine's creator. Sehanine is Corellon's shadow; Corellon is Sehanine's reflection. Sehanine is the moon; Corellon is the monk's crescent. Sehanine is the night sky; Corellon is the sun and all the stars...She is thought to stand beside dying elves, to greet their departing spirits and set them on the path to Arvandor. Sehanine serves as a patron of the lost and any who travel, as well as those who seek meaning. Elves beseech her to provide relief from madness, and th cry mark her symbol on graves and tombs to invoke her protection of the dead. In these comforting aspects, Sehanine is often imagined as a willowy, gentle male elf with shining eyes that reveal both melancholy and tenderness in their gave when depicted alongside his beloved Corellon (ph 46-7, bold emphasis mine).
As you can see, Sehanine switches gender and pronouns here, with the description going from her to him. Much as other things about MToF irk me, I found this passage beautiful, and I admittedly squealed a bit when I read it lol, because it essentially depicts Sehanine and Corellon as a gay couple, being as they can easily switch between the sexes. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 28 Jul 2020 04:58:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 10:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Earlier I brought up the fluidity of the Seldarine. This has been in canon for a while, though it is nothing new, though they usually appear in literature as one or the other.
I had a lot of problems with MToF. It changed a lot of elven and drow lore, and I ha e ranted about it extensively lol. However, the book did keep the gender fluidity of the Seldarine, and I would like to quote a passage (probably the only passage I really like in the whole book lol):
Sehanine is Corellon's beloved; Corellon is Sehanine's creator. Sehanine is Corellon's shadow; Corellon is Sehanine's reflection. Sehanine is the moon; Corellon is the monk's crescent. Sehanine is the night sky; Corellon is the sun and all the stars...She is thought to stand beside dying elves, to greet their departing spirits and set them on the path to Arvandor. Sehanine serves as a patron of the lost and any who travel, as well as those who seek meaning. Elves beseech her to provide relief from madness, and th cry mark her symbol on graves and tombs to invoke her protection of the dead. In these comforting aspects, Sehanine is often imagined as a willowy, gentle male elf with shining eyes that reveal both melancholy and tenderness in their gave when depicted alongside his beloved Corellon (ph 46-7, bold emphasis mine).
As you can see, Sehanine switches gender and pronouns here, with the description going from her to him. Much as other things about MToF irk me, I found this passage beautiful, and I admittedly squealed a bit when I read it lol, because it essentially depicts Sehanine and Corellon as a gay couple, being as they can easily switch between the sexes.
Just a thought, do you see Angharradhh (sp?) as possibly a quintessentially female deity... a representation of the female elven ideal maybe as a result of them becoming "stable"? Was it right after Angharradh was created that their forms became more stable, and could their joining have "done" something to the race? Actually, could this also be when the race started seeing Sehanine as predominantly female and Corellon as predominantly male? Or It might be interesting if there were a similar amalgamation of males in that context (i.e. if this is when the sexes stabilized). Basically one representing the elf form that will carry a child and one that only conceives.
Hmmm, and with the hints that Grruumsh is Corellon's brother, and there also being a snow elven god who is now outcast from the Seldarine who was also tricked by a being who was either Araushnee or someone else..... since all of these gods created their own races, perhaps there WAS such a being and he's "fallen apart". For some reason, I'm drawn to the idea that if such happened, the Queen of Air and Darkness may have affected these beings with shards of evil, but that some have recovered (i.e. the snow elven god may have thrown off the influence). Of course, if I did go with that idea, that also brings into play some interesting storyline for the relationship between the snow elven god and Rellavar Danuvien, since Aurilandur may have similarly been infected …. but then we don't know the exact relationship between Rellavar and Aurilandur either... heck, she may be Rellavar's mother |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Jul 2020 10:20:02 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 13:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Earlier I brought up the fluidity of the Seldarine. This has been in canon for a while, though it is nothing new, though they usually appear in literature as one or the other.
I had a lot of problems with MToF. It changed a lot of elven and drow lore, and I ha e ranted about it extensively lol. However, the book did keep the gender fluidity of the Seldarine, and I would like to quote a passage (probably the only passage I really like in the whole book lol):
Sehanine is Corellon's beloved; Corellon is Sehanine's creator. Sehanine is Corellon's shadow; Corellon is Sehanine's reflection. Sehanine is the moon; Corellon is the monk's crescent. Sehanine is the night sky; Corellon is the sun and all the stars...She is thought to stand beside dying elves, to greet their departing spirits and set them on the path to Arvandor. Sehanine serves as a patron of the lost and any who travel, as well as those who seek meaning. Elves beseech her to provide relief from madness, and th cry mark her symbol on graves and tombs to invoke her protection of the dead. In these comforting aspects, Sehanine is often imagined as a willowy, gentle male elf with shining eyes that reveal both melancholy and tenderness in their gave when depicted alongside his beloved Corellon (ph 46-7, bold emphasis mine).
As you can see, Sehanine switches gender and pronouns here, with the description going from her to him. Much as other things about MToF irk me, I found this passage beautiful, and I admittedly squealed a bit when I read it lol, because it essentially depicts Sehanine and Corellon as a gay couple, being as they can easily switch between the sexes.
Yup, it was one of the good parts of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and pretty beautifully written.
Further with the gender ambiguous nature of the Seldarine, since Monster Mythology, it's stated Erevan Ilesere, might be (when he was in female form) the mother of Eachthighern.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought, do you see Angharradhh (sp?) as possibly a quintessentially female deity... a representation of the female elven ideal maybe as a result of them becoming "stable"? Was it right after Angharradh was created that their forms became more stable, and could their joining have "done" something to the race? Actually, could this also be when the race started seeing Sehanine as predominantly female and Corellon as predominantly male? Or It might be interesting if there were a similar amalgamation of males in that context (i.e. if this is when the sexes stabilized). Basically one representing the elf form that will carry a child and one that only conceives.
Hmmm, and with the hints that Grruumsh is Corellon's brother, and there also being a snow elven god who is now outcast from the Seldarine who was also tricked by a being who was either Araushnee or someone else..... since all of these gods created their own races, perhaps there WAS such a being and he's "fallen apart". For some reason, I'm drawn to the idea that if such happened, the Queen of Air and Darkness may have affected these beings with shards of evil, but that some have recovered (i.e. the snow elven god may have thrown off the influence). Of course, if I did go with that idea, that also brings into play some interesting storyline for the relationship between the snow elven god and Rellavar Danuvien, since Aurilandur may have similarly been infected …. but then we don't know the exact relationship between Rellavar and Aurilandur either... heck, she may be Rellavar's mother
It is possible, with Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes stating Lolth is behind the stabilization of elven forms, but that could be seen as true from a certain angle, ie the poisoning of Corellon and the reveal of Araushnee's betrayal, causing the forming of Angharradh, which could be tied to the elves forms stabilizing.
The thing is, if I remember right, elves (and Eladrin) not having a set form (including sex) and as well more binary gender identity, before an certain event.
The same book also implies that Angharradh (as it only lists her), while more primarily feminine, also has the gender fluidity of the Seldarine.
With a "masculine" counterpart to Angharradh, my suggestion would be a merger of Corellon Larethian, Rillifane Rallathil and Labelas Enoreth, with Rillifane Rallathil embodying the connection of elves to nature, and wilderness, while Labelas Enoreth embodying the philosophical side of elves and their perspective on time, with Corellon obviously embodying the soul of the elven race.
With Gruumsh, core 4E lore outright states him as the brother of Corellon. |
Edited by - Baltas on 28 Jul 2020 14:04:11 |
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Arannis
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 23:03:38
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I just found this thread and am really enjoying the discussion, even some of the arguing because it brought certain issues on both sides to light. As a gay man I am glad at more representation in the realms. Though all the games I have played have focused more on the adventure and less on the relationships, partially because i started as kid and have only played sporadic games and no long term ones since.
One thing I am really excited about is the future romance options in Baldur's Gate 3, as it seems like all companions will be more or less pansexual. And I really want to romance Gale. Wyll and Astarion I think will be fun too, and I'm curious how Wyll's pact and Astarion's Vampirism may affect a romance.
As a side note, I know it is not canon but i always imagined Jarlaxle as Pansexual. He just seemed like he would find pleasure in many different forms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 01:04:24
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Actually, Jarlaxle being pansexual IS canon  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Arannis
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 02:09:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, Jarlaxle being pansexual IS canon
That's awesome! I didn't realize that was canon, but it makes me happy. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 06:12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Further with the gender ambiguous nature of the Seldarine, since Monster Mythology, it's stated Erevan Ilesere, might be (when he was in female form) the mother of Eachthighern.
In his desperate crusade to stay relevant, Erevan's now stealing tricks from Loki's playbook.
quote:
With Gruumsh, core 4E lore outright states him as the brother of Corellon.
I wish the devs would remember a time when Gruumsh and Maglubiyet hated each other far more than Corellon.
I mean, Gruumsh hates everyone. He didn't single out Corellon specifically because "PUNY ELF, GRUUMSH SMASH!"; it was an opportunistic attack that left him temporarily humbled. The orcish creation myth is all about him flipping off every other god in the cosmos, not just the Seldarine. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 10:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Arannis
I just found this thread and am really enjoying the discussion, even some of the arguing because it brought certain issues on both sides to light. As a gay man I am glad at more representation in the realms. Though all the games I have played have focused more on the adventure and less on the relationships, partially because i started as kid and have only played sporadic games and no long term ones since.
One thing I am really excited about is the future romance options in Baldur's Gate 3, as it seems like all companions will be more or less pansexual. And I really want to romance Gale. Wyll and Astarion I think will be fun too, and I'm curious how Wyll's pact and Astarion's Vampirism may affect a romance.
As a side note, I know it is not canon but i always imagined Jarlaxle as Pansexual. He just seemed like he would find pleasure in many different forms.
quote:
Originally posted by Arannis
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, Jarlaxle being pansexual IS canon
That's awesome! I didn't realize that was canon, but it makes me happy.
It's great you enjoyed this discussion and found it informative - I kinda feared the arguing would make it uncomfortable/not pleasant to read.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
In his desperate crusade to stay relevant, Erevan's now stealing tricks from Loki's playbook.
Well, the Monster Mythology book actually compares the situation, to that of Slepnir and Loki.
Indeed, 2E especially compares Loki and Erevan Ilesere, including both (and Eilistraee) (or possibly Erevan at Eilistraee's side, as described in "On Hallowed Ground") being theorized (in Planes of Chaos) to be the ruler of Svartalfheim - specifically, theorizing the ruler could be Loki in one of his "magical disguises" among things. Hmm...
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I wish the devs would remember a time when Gruumsh and Maglubiyet hated each other far more than Corellon.
I mean, Gruumsh hates everyone. He didn't single out Corellon specifically because "PUNY ELF, GRUUMSH SMASH!"; it was an opportunistic attack that left him temporarily humbled. The orcish creation myth is all about him flipping off every other god in the cosmos, not just the Seldarine.
To be fair, the hatred between Corellon and Gruumsh is more emphasized ever since "The Gods of the Elves" Dragon #60 and "The Gods of Orcs" article in Dragon #62 (both from 1982), the article emphasizing the importance of the battle of Corellon and Gruumsh in Orc religion and culture, giving it as the justification of the specifically great enmity between orcs and elves. |
Edited by - Baltas on 01 Aug 2020 13:28:28 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 15:06:00
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It just occurred to me that I hadn't shared any anecdotes from my campaigns.
In general, my Realms do not have much in the way of modern-day Earth 'Queer culture'. I can find little support in canon that sexual identity as a concept is anywhere near as entrenched in the Realms as on modern Earth. Most societies in the Realms simply don't categorize sexual behaviour in those terms.
People aren't generally viewed as 'gay' or 'straight' in the Realms. It's assumed that most people will select sexual partners on the basis of desire, whim or preferences, but most people would be mystified at the suggestion that either their preferences or their habitual behaviour defined them as people.
Some people happen to have sex more often with people who share certain characteristics; a given sex, gender, hair colour, profession, hobby or build, but just as someone who ate vanilla ice cream most often is unlikely to define themselves as part of a social class of 'vanilla-eaters', the idea of people being defined by the sex or gender of their most common sexual partners would be received as an odd concept by most people in the Realms.
This doesn't mean that everyone in the Realms is pansexual. It does mean that most people who are pansexual are just perceived as ordinary and don't need any word to describe themselves (or be described by) and those who happen not to be attracted to a certain subset of the population aren't perceived as special subcultures, just, at most, people who don't like something.
We don't really need a word and certainly not a whole social identity for people who don't like chocolate or only like chocolate as the filling in an ice cream sandwich, and similarly, to most people in the Realms, it would seem odd to classify people in that way. I mean, it's useful information to anyone looking to share sexual experiences with them, but not really information that affects their lives or position in society in any other way.
That being said, not everywhere in my Realms truly fits this cosmopolitan ideal. It's established in canon that plenty of rural places have gender roles that differ sharply from the alleged egalitarianism of the wider Realms and characters with various origins in published Realmslore (mostly not written by Ed) have demonstrated far more sexual hangups than you'd expect from some of Ed's musings.
So, I assume that the 'typical' Realms attitude describes above holds true in big cities and places where a lot of cultures have interacted extensively over long periods of time. More isolated communities might have more antiquated notions, especially if they are relatively poor and have little access to powerful magic. In such cases, the biological and economic factors that on Earth lead to gender inequality and lack of female sexual freedom are still in play and there aren't enough supernatural factors to counteract them.
In addition, I've established some societies as having sexual mores, customs and taboos. The Old Empires, while certainly places where same sex attraction is celebrated, has cultural expectations that sexual relationships between males will take place between an older, higher status individual and a younger, lower status one.
As in many historical Earth societies, there is a conception of sexual identity there, especially for adult high-status males, but that identity is bound up in being the active, powerful party in any relationship. It's not perceived negatively for a noble to have male lovers, but it would be viewed as shameful for him to be known as the submissive partners to his younger lovers.
Of course, characters from the Old Empires don't necessarily have to follow this expectation. Especially in areas with a lot of trade, travel and cosmopolitan attitudes, it's perfectly fine for them to behave in a more Heartlands fashion and entirely ignore these cultural prejudices. But that will result in certain reactions from conservative nobility and rural people, especially in Mulhorand and some of the rural parts of Chessenta.
By contrast, Murghom and Semphar, while having far more rigid gender roles than the Heartlands, don't necessarily see male sexual relationships between equals as shameful and who penetrates whom is not considered all that important among most of the people, with the exception, ironically, of some of the cities, where Mulhorandi mores are held in more favour.
That being said, the expectation is that any male inheriting something of significance, whether noble title, position or property, will marry females, usually more than one if he can afford to support them. This need not preclude him from having male lovers, but there is definitely a cultural expectation of siring heirs.
Most of the PCs in my game seem to be fairly sexually inhibited by Realms-standards, with few of them having sexual encounters with more than one sex and gender. Granted, several of them have never had any sexual relationships 'on screen', so it might well be that they simply don't feel willing to risk emotional closeness with anyone while living the dangerous lives, with the number of enemies, that PCs tend to do.
Also, the PC who has been established as the most sexually active while simultaneously limited to strictly one sex and gender, is from a backward community of 'barbarians' in the Thunder Peak mountains, strongly influenced by dwarven culture, and with far stricter gender roles than most Heartland humans. He may simply be still uncomfortable with the more cosmopolitan mores of wider society, especially given that while he's earned great wealth and fame as a warrior, he's still only 20-years-old. And, honestly, a couple of partners a year during his adventuring career (since 17) is not all that active, so the sample size is limited.
There is one PC from Murghom, who is canonically pansexual. He identifies as male, but is currently married to a (female?) vampire* and a genderfluid lamia, who identifies as male more often than female. The PC is betrothed to a human female, but he's never actually met her. Her father is his lover, however.
*Technically, a gender-less spirit possessing a dead body that used to be female, but Ahhusha still identifies as female. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 17:16:25
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I agree in the Realms people don't really categorize sexual behavior, not like we do today.
With Lamia character, I wonder is their sexual identity influenced by how non-noble Lamia's were described in their old ecology article in Dragon #192 (ie as hermaphrodites), or is it a coincidence? |
Edited by - Baltas on 01 Aug 2020 17:17:19 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 18:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
With Lamia character, I wonder is their sexual identity influenced by how non-noble Lamia's were described in their old ecology article in Dragon #192 (ie as hermaphrodites), or is it a coincidence?
Kurushumgal/Ushum-Apiru/Ningishzida is one of the many children of the noble lamia who rules the underworld under Unthalass and is known as Ereshkigal.
As far as Rasul (the PC) can determine, Kurushumgal truly believes themselves to be immortal and their mother to be the divine being that was wife to Nergal three millennia ago. And while Rasul is not certain whether this is true or if being raised by the powerful noble lamia has caused them to internalize their delusions.
In any case, Kurushumgal is a very powerful lamia and associated with some apparently mythological phenomena, including a chthonic Tree of Life growing from what is allegedly the primeval Abzu, and an underground river they call Habur (see Hubur). Despite being referred to as a 'son' of Ereshkigal, Kurushumgal strongly identifies with mythological iconography of fertility, motherhood and wombs. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 18:29:24
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A very interesting character!
I see they are in part inspired by the mythological Ningishzida.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 18:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
A very interesting character!
I see they are in part inspired by the mythological Ningishzida.
Or is that mythological being. Original or not.
After all, in the Realms, deities can lose their power gradually, as their worshipers dwindle, and, vice versa, powerful monsters can acquire divine characteristics if enough people believe their mythology. What does this do to their identities? How would a former god ever know if they are a deity dreaming of being mortal or a mortal dreaming of being a god?
In any case, Ereshkigal is a canon character and is described as a lamia noble with that name ruling the underworld below Unthalass. There is no elaboration of that character in canon or a mention of the obvious mythological connections to a pantheon where there was a real Nergal at one point. I just fleshed her, her realm and her family out a bit. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 01 Aug 2020 18:36:49 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 19:39:43
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I agree that the Realms probably wouldn't classify people in terms of orientation. As Ed Greenwood and others in this scroll have said, there is a sort of "bisexuality" in the Realms, if you will, that is normal, and certain people have a preference for their own sex. But they wouldn't use terms like homosexual, bisexual, pan, etc, like we would. Much like ancient real world cultures didn't necessarily have those kinds of labels.
Of course, saying there is a queer culture in the Realms doesn't mean we are approaching it like a counter culture, especially since sexual diversity in the Realms is fairly normal. It isn't always a separate culture from what we would call heteronormative (though as Icelander pointed out, some societies are more gendered, but "queerness" isn't the anathema in the Realms that it is in much of the modern real world). "Queer culture" in the Realms is more talking about representation in the Realms of characters we as readers/players would say are gay/bi/pan/trans, and also looking at things in the Realms that *do* cater to those of a certain inclination (festhalls for MSM or WSW, the equivalent of "drag" shows, even sories/ballads about lovers of the same gender, etc). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 19:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
"Queer culture" in the Realms is more talking about representation in the Realms of characters we as readers/players would say are gay/bi/pan/trans, and also looking at things in the Realms that *do* cater to those of a certain inclination (festhalls for MSM or WSW, the equivalent of "drag" shows, even sories/ballads about lovers of the same gender, etc).
Catering to such interests and having literature that covers every type of love story is the norm in the Realms. Exceptions are what needs to be noted. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 04:19:56
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| Yes, it's the norm in the Realms, and this scroll is for talking about them [:]] |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 20:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
"Queer culture" in the Realms is more talking about representation in the Realms of characters we as readers/players would say are gay/bi/pan/trans, and also looking at things in the Realms that *do* cater to those of a certain inclination (festhalls for MSM or WSW, the equivalent of "drag" shows, even sories/ballads about lovers of the same gender, etc).
Catering to such interests and having literature that covers every type of love story is the norm in the Realms. Exceptions are what needs to be noted.
By all means, show me the massive amount of queer representation in the setting that we’re apparently so tired of and need exceptions from. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 21:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
By all means, show me the massive amount of queer representation in the setting that we’re apparently so tired of and need exceptions from.
Unless there is textual evidence suggesting otherwise, cultures in the Realms have no modern concept of queer identity. The norm is that everyone might have different preferences, but it's unusual for anyone to have exclusively had sexual experiences with one gender and it would be weird for a character from the Realms to define themselves by such experiences or the lack of them.
By our modern standards, you could choose to define pretty much every NPC in the Realms as 'queer', but the term is pretty meaningless in their terms. Unless an NPC comes from a culture in the Realms that differs from the usual Heartlands approach to sexuality or the character in question is specifically noted as being unusual in their personal sexuality, their sexual attraction and experience likely includes people of more than one gender.
Which means that if it's important for your characterization that a character in the Realms defines themselves in terms of sexual identity, especially if that identity is meant to differ from his society, it's actually more relevant to explore Realms sources for evidence about those places on Toril where prevailing attitudes about sex, gender and sexuality are different from the Heartlands. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 04 Aug 2020 21:33:19 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 21:42:07
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| I think we are using "queer" for the purposes of the thread, to show how the Realms views different sexualities as normal, recognizing that some have preferences, but not having "orientations" in the way we think of the term. I think the purposes of this thread is to show that "queer culture" is a part of Realms culture, because "pansexuality" (if we were to put a real world term on it) would be the norm. We can still give examples of "queer" characters (ones we would label such anyway) from novels and source books. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 21:47:42
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| We have Ed saying the average person in the Realms is bi/pan, and that gender transition is incredibly common, yet the overwhelming majority of Realms characters are straight and cis. While “queer” as an identity like we have does not exist as we know it, characters we would consider should be all over the setting and yet are not in canon, because of real-world biases. Until the published fiction matches that intent, I will absolutely continue to raise a stink about it. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:00:20
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
We have Ed saying the average person in the Realms is bi/pan, and that gender transition is incredibly common, yet the overwhelming majority of Realms characters are straight and cis. While “queer” as an identity like we have does not exist as we know it, characters we would consider should be all over the setting and yet are not in canon, because of real-world biases. Until the published fiction matches that intent, I will absolutely continue to raise a stink about it.
I don't recall any explicit statement about most of the characters in the Realms, so I assume most published characters are pansexual. I mean, surely you're not just going to assume that Elaith Craulnober or Danilo Thann are exclusively heterosexual, just because the romantic partner we see them 'on-screen' with happens to be female?
Sure, you can complain that very little of the sex lives of characters in the Realms has made it into published fiction and game supplements, but that's probably in part because it's aimed at children and tweens, not specifically prejudice. And your campaigns can include as much attraction, romance and sex as you want. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 04 Aug 2020 22:02:50 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
We have Ed saying the average person in the Realms is bi/pan, and that gender transition is incredibly common, yet the overwhelming majority of Realms characters are straight and cis. While “queer” as an identity like we have does not exist as we know it, characters we would consider should be all over the setting and yet are not in canon, because of real-world biases. Until the published fiction matches that intent, I will absolutely continue to raise a stink about it.
I don't recall any explicit statement about most of the characters in the Realms, so I assume most published characters are pansexual. I mean, surely you're not just going to assume that Elaith Craulnober or Danilo Thann are exclusively heterosexual, just because the romantic partner we see them 'on-screen' with happens to be female?
Sure, you can complain that very little of the sex lives of characters in the Realms has made it into published fiction and game supplements, but that's probably in part because it's aimed at children and tweens, not specifically prejudice. And your campaigns can include as much attraction, romance and sex as you want.
“Everyone who was straight was secretly pan and just never mentioned it” is not the slam dunk for representation you seem to think it is. I’m not asking for gay porn, just for like... literally any amount of people like me and my loved ones to exist.
Being queer is not, in fact, someone’s “sex life,” and your reduction of queerness to that is harmful and misguided. I’m talking about love, and self-expression. Being trans, for instance, isn’t about sex at all, yet seems to be completely excluded from your post. I can think of a whopping two characters in canon who are, and neither are prominent at all. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 04 Aug 2020 22:13:07 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
“Everyone who was straight was secretly pan and just never mentioned it” is not the slam dunk for representation you seem to think it is. I’m not asking for gay porn, just for like... literally any amount of people like me and my loved ones to exist.
They do. In Ed's campaigns, mine and yours if you want it.
But nothing you say is going to insert them retroactively into already written novels and as I understand, Realms novels aren't being written any longer. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
“Everyone who was straight was secretly pan and just never mentioned it” is not the slam dunk for representation you seem to think it is. I’m not asking for gay porn, just for like... literally any amount of people like me and my loved ones to exist.
They do. In Ed's campaigns, mine and yours if you want it.
But nothing you say is going to insert them retroactively into already written novels and as I understand, Realms novels aren't being written any longer.
There’s still 5e Realms books and adventures every single year. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
There’s still 5e Realms books and adventures every single year.
I suppose.
I freely admit that I've no idea what's being published for the 15th century Realms, as I don't have any interest in playing in a future of the setting, where all of the established characters, relationships, inns, taverns and mundane things are dead, irrelevant or changed.
But I did hear somewhere that only R.A. Salvatore and maybe 1-2 other famous authors were continuing their novel series and the rest of the novel line had ended.
As for adventures, I'm not too familiar with how they work (never actually used them in my campaign), but aren't they a lot less detailed than novels? That is, do they include any significant detail on the inner lives of characters encountered?
I mean, most published characters by WotC I've seen include a lot of stats, but there's usually not much space dedicated to mentioning their hopes, dreams, sexual experience, life history or other things. For most of them, seems you could freely assume their preferences were anything you liked and you could definitely decide whether their birth sex and gender correlated or not. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
There’s still 5e Realms books and adventures every single year.
I suppose.
I freely admit that I've no idea what's being published for the 15th century Realms, as I don't have any interest in playing in a future of the setting, where all of the established characters, relationships, inns, taverns and mundane things are dead, irrelevant or changed.
But I did hear somewhere that only R.A. Salvatore and maybe 1-2 other famous authors were continuing their novel series and the rest of the novel line had ended.
As for adventures, I'm not too familiar with how they work (never actually used them in my campaign), but aren't they a lot less detailed than novels? That is, do they include any significant detail on the inner lives of characters encountered?
I mean, most published characters by WotC I've seen include a lot of stats, but there's usually not much space dedicated to mentioning their hopes, dreams, sexual experience, life history or other things. For most of them, seems you could freely assume their preferences were anything you liked and you could definitely decide whether their birth sex and gender correlated or not.
It costs nothing for a character in a module to casually mention her wife or for one to use they/them pronouns, and most of these modules are massive hardcovers that take a year or longer to play. There’s plenty of room for a character with depth to exist.
I have to ask, as I have multiple times with others: what’s the end goal of your argument? Published fiction doesn’t have almost any queer representation, and you’re willing to fight pretty hard to say that’s either not true, not a problem, or that the ship has sailed and there’s no reason to push for it now. Why? Why even be in this thread, if you don’t care about current material and seem to be pushing back hard on voices like mine and others? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
It costs nothing for a character in a module to casually mention her wife or for one to use they/them pronouns, and most of these modules are massive hardcovers that take a year or longer to play. There’s plenty of room for a character with depth to exist.
Sure, but I'd think that if you wanted a character with depth in a campaign, you'd create them, not rely on WotC to do so. I mean, they've made it pretty clear where they stand on depth, in the Realms and elsewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I have to ask, as I have multiple times with others: what’s the end goal of your argument? Published fiction doesn’t have almost any queer representation, and you’re willing to fight pretty hard to say that’s either not true, not a problem, or that the ship has sailed and there’s no reason to push for it now. Why? Why even be in this thread, if you don’t care about current material and seem to be pushing back hard on voices like mine and others?
The subjects of sexuality, gender and how social mores in various Realmsian culture differ from various historical Earth ones are interesting.
I just think we're more likely to find interesting stuff to talk about in Realmslore from Ed or other authors who care about the setting than in whatever WotC is publishing these days.
I mean, I still play a campaign set in the Realms, so information on Candlekeep is still relevant to me. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 22:57:01
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| So why not contribute instead of trying to combat me for this entire page? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Queer Culture in the Realms
