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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Dec 2019 : 17:58:59
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I am so, so hesitant to make this thread. Hope everyone behaves.
What is there in canon about queer culture across the setting? Definitely curious about homosexuality in various nations (and ideally things other than “shameful” or “punished”), but I’m especially wondering if there’s anything either published or easy to extrapolate trans identities from.
I published a book about trans identities in a number of races and societies in Eberron, and would love to know if someone had done similar work!
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2019 : 18:16:19
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It's not really been addressed that much, save for a passing reference here and there.
TSR was scared of running afoul of the many self-proclaimed moral watchdogs of the age, and went out of their way to avoid anything other than straight, cis characters (actually, TSR barely even touched on anything related to sex).
When WotC came along, there was less concern over the potential blowback on such topics, but they still more or less didn't really go into it. It's only been in the last few years that they've become more inclusive; there was I believe I 5E book where they finally, point blank said "hey, your character doesn't have to be straight and cis, they can be LGBTQ." Oddly, there was a lot of debate over that one (debate that we WILL NOT be having again!).
Ed has more than once addressed the topic; what he has said is that for the most part, as long as everyone involved is of age and consenting, no one really cares. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2019 : 18:33:27
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To be fair...
Chorus: "To be faaaiiiiiirrr"
... Trans isn't really as much of an identity expression in a world where, if ye be of sufficient means, skill, time, belief, or patience you can change genders at will.
Sure, there will be those whose identity is that they split the divide but when you can, with very little effort, alter genitalia or any specific part to your choosing there is little "window dressing" required to define your uniqueness. In many ways, I imagine living in Faerun would present a greater freedom of expression than we experience today. |
Edited by - Stonwulfe on 31 Dec 2019 18:40:51 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2019 : 18:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
To be fair...
Chorus: "To be faaaiiiiiirrr"
... Trans isn't really as much of an identity expression in a world where, if ye be of sufficient means, skill, time, belief, or patience you can change genders at will.
Sure, there will be those whose identity is that they split the divide but when you can, with very little effort, genitalia or any specific part to your choosing there is little "window dressing" required to define your uniqueness. In many ways, I imagine living in Faerun would present a greater freedom of expression than we experience today.
Oh, certainly, but there’s more to gender identities than just the binary, whether cis or not. I’d love to hear if any cultures have third genders, or room for a fluid identity, or non-binary and agender ones. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2019 : 18:49:28
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Oh, certainly, but there is an interesting anthropological question to be asked which is, how do the fluid or non-binary gender identities develop in a culture where the social, spiritual, and physical daily realities don't explicitly rule them out or make them taboo (that is to say, no opposition or constraints via social construct).
Further to the point, how do said identities develop where there is only the promise of prosecution, excommunication, and death (the extremes of constraints) when those constraints suddenly disappear?
We've ample evidence to how these manifest in the modern day Earth-based Eurocentric developed world, and a myriad of responses in between. However, do/would people within the Forgotten Realms continue to associate internal realities of identity with cis-focused gender/sex when the biology and (thereby) sex-based gendered experiences can and will change by the aid of magic?
My son is trans. I've had these conversations at length with him, as we both enjoy philosophy and conversations of an anthropological/sociological bent (I have a degree in Anthropology). We both agree that the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle, but it's just as likely for someone to freak out when they find out their partner was born of a different sex and changed it via magic for a personal reason - perhaps to escape a prior life, relationship, or circumstance... perhaps because it better aligns with their inner truth.
There are a lot of trans men who I am certain would use magic to make the change fully, without the aid of surgery. And vice versa. And many who wouldn't.
(Edited to add: I also think that fluid identities or persuasions become interesting as those physical realities may also be fluid. Maybe a thief steals a girdle of transmutation so they can fluidly shift back and forth - or to inbetween states - of physical expression. Interesting character idea.) |
Edited by - Stonwulfe on 31 Dec 2019 18:58:42 |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 16:47:50
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Currently in my campaign, I had a male aasimar sorcerer who was associated with the church of Isis in Mulhorand.
The character had wanted to be a cleric, but had been rejected by the church due to his gender. He left his homeland and joined the party in Tilverton. The player moved away and the character left the party and took a powerful magic item the party found in the Spiderhaunt Woods to seek out a transmuter who would perform the conversion so that the character could become what they wanted to be.
I'm planning on returning to this character at some point with the rest of my group. I don't think there is any general attitude towards those who are trans, but my guess is that some groups would be opposed to such things. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 19:01:11
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I keep wondering if Rashemen might be a good place to explore this. On one hand, their culture is aggressively gendered, but on the other, many real-world animist belief systems had room for third genders or some degree of fluidity. It’s not like the spirits and fey they revere must adhere to any societal notion of a binary.
And hey, if you can choose your own mask... |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 21:23:03
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In old school Realms, I can think of two more in your face versions of queer references/characters in the Realms (I know Bob had a few gay characters in the 2000s+ though).
So the first is sort of offensively that Lhaeo was masquerading as a "lisping man-lover" (think Spellfire called him that?) who supposedly pleasured Elminster as a houseboy while hiding from assassins as the last heir to throne of Tethyr. They never "went there" with it but a few early novels did pass him off as a gay manservant while he was secretly in a relationship with Storm. It was all a bit odd; he could have just been an apprentice of Elminster who lived with him. Not sure why they had to make him out to be gay and lisping...but it was the 80s.
The second, much more positive early queer references that I can determine in mainstream Realms is the relationship between the half-elven ruler of Elversult, Yanseldara and her partner Vaerana Hawklyn. Their relationship in the 90s was never quite flat out stated to be romantic partners, but it was heavily implied especially in the novel The Veiled Dragon; and Ed has subsequently stated absolutely they are romantic partners but TSR at the time wasn't willing to state outright they were lesbians as Wooly said they were a bit hesitant on the sexual front in the day and age where mothers thought D&D would lead to satanism...
If there are other early references to queer characters or culture in the published Realms I'm not aware, but there may well be! Ed's OWN version of the Realms of course I believe is MUCH more fluid with sexuality and queer characters and he's written quite a bit about it over the years. |
Edited by - Seravin on 05 Jan 2020 21:24:46 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 15:30:32
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Hail and well met,
Long time participant, author, and designer here, though it's been a while since I've been on Candlekeep. (Sorry about that, all.)
A lot of the queer content in the canon Realms (novels, sourcebooks, etc) is subtextual, due in large part to such things as the moral watchdogs Wooly was talking about, the Realms historically being in the hands of mostly cishet dudes who had little to no interest in exploring queer content (TSR and later WotC--I'm not saying there weren't exceptions, they just weren't the rule), and the fanbase being perceived (to some extent correctly) as either disinterested or aggressively unwelcoming (your anxieties upon posting this thread are somewhat founded).
That said, queer characters have always been in the Realms, from the very beginning. He'd be the one to tell you more, but Ed Greenwood grew up in a context much less inhibited than the mainstream as regards sex and love, and that shows in his creation. (As for gender stuff, he's also directly spoken about the inclusion of trans people in the Realms--can't grab the link right now, but google "ed greenwood trans characters forgotten realms" and you should find it; not 100% modern language on the subject, but the intent is pure). You can see little bits and pieces of inclusion, regarding Yanseldara and Vaerana, for instance (it's not a coincidence that I set my story, The Greater Treasure, in Elversult), or the heavily implied relationship between Alusair and Caladnei in the 1360s/70s.
Perhaps the most obvious, highly visible, and canonical same-sex relationship comes from the War of the Spider Queen novels, between Danifae and Quenthel, which is not only clearly a sexual relationship between two women but also taps into the inherent powerplay nature of the drow as a people.
My own stuff is full of queer content, from the subtextual stuff in GHOSTWALKER (it's never clearly stated, but several of those characters are *not* straight), to the kiss between two female characters in DEPTHS OF MADNESS (which always seems to be the thing I get dragged for in the Amazon reviews, funny that), to a tangled, dramatic mess of various identities and orientations in my SHADOWBANE series (particularly but not limited to Ilira, Fayne, Rhett, Myrin, and even Kalen himself). This will also be made more clear in my forthcoming Westgate Campaign Guide, which I hope to have out on the guild by, oh, GenCon 2020? That seems like a good launch date.
I like to tell people (and I've been saying this consistently since I started writing in the setting, my first book coming out in 2005) that sexuality and gender are much more fluid and the sort of heteronormative atmosphere we have in our world is absent in the Realms.
What we would call “LGBT” people, to the folk of the Realms, are just “more people.”
I often describe the Realms as viewing bisexuality (the B in LGBT) or, more apropos, pansexuality (similar to but not always the same, depending on variable definitions beyond the scope of this particular thread) as the most common orientation, like how heterosexuality is considered the most common orientation in our world. In a world populated by not only various genders but various species of people, it’s not only unlikely for people to develop in a way that limits their attraction and interests, but it’s also just inefficient. Are there some weirdos who frown and grumble and express their wish that people express themselves a certain way? Sure, but they're widely viewed as just that: weirdos with weird hangups.
Other orientations exist, of course. If you want a character who is entirely straight (their attraction is exclusive to people of the "opposite" gender) or gay (exclusive to the "same" gender), that’s totally fine, and a thing in the setting. There’s no stigma attached to it, other than maybe some people thinking it’s oddly limited (and the aforementioned weirdos).
And when you get into gender issues, such as T (trans), this is a world where transmutation magic shifts people’s assigned gender all the time and extremely easily. There are people of all sorts of identities, and they are the same as everyone else: more people.
And again, I’m not just saying all this for the fun of it, but because this is HOW THE REALMS is constructed.
Anyway, the Realms has included lots of gender and orientation diversity from its founding, and it has become more tolerant and expansive over the years as more progressive-minded people work their way up at WotC. Jeremy Crawford, for instance, is a proud gay man who gladly infuses WotC's D&D output with LGBTQ stuff, and James Wyatt, the proud father of a trans daughter, does the same over on Magic. The future is bright and a bit queer. 
So anyway, I hope that helps.
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 15:40:44
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To add a small bit to what Erik so very well said; while the queerness of the early characters was not in your face, I don't recall any characters being homophobic or gaybashing in any of the novels or sourcebooks - despite acknowledging say Yanseldara and Vaerana as a couple (which no one has any problem with).
I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all. Fascinated by any of the pre-2000s gay references though; very few of them! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 15:48:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all.
I agree. And this isn't the sort of thing I think WotC would do these days, if they were still in the business of producing novels. We've evolved in our world a little bit. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 16:55:40
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You got my attention with this upcoming Westgate Campaign Guide Erik!
Interesting discussion. IIRC didn't Mystra turned Elminster into a Woman in Making of The Mage? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 17:04:14
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So here's an odd take. One of the few areas in the Realms with strong gender-based roles is the clergy. In some churches (e.g. Sharindlar, but not Chauntea), there seems to be a strong affiliation between the perceived gender of the deity and the majority of the priesthood.
Is this because certain faiths are only "attractive" to certain genders? Or is this because gender is simply one more "litmus test" for joining the clergy that deliberately restricts its membership?
In a world where magic is available and regularly employed to change genders, what pressures or implications does this have for the intersection of gender / sexuality / faith / and calling?
I don't have any answers for any of that, but it could be something for a PC or a storyteller to explore. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 18:20:27
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Eilistraee is also an example of that. In her case, Ed said that the reason lies in the goddess' own nature (her mothering of the drow). Males used to perform a changedance (turning into women) to rise in level as clerics, though that's no longer necessary after the Sundering--I'm guessing due to how Eilistraee adapted her perspective after having held Vhaeraun's portfolio for a while. That said, there's also the fact that, among drow, women are naturally more attracted to divine magic, while males are to arcane (or so it was back in the 2e/3e era, when Ed introduced this concept).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 19:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That said, there's also the fact that, among drow, women are naturally more attracted to divine magic, while males are to arcane (or so it was back in the 2e/3e era, when Ed introduced this concept).
I'm not sure that was anything more than a cultural thing: most drow societies revolve around Lolth, who favored female clergy. Drow males wanting to do something other than swing a sword didn't have many other options, aside from the arcane. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 21:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
So here's an odd take. One of the few areas in the Realms with strong gender-based roles is the clergy...
Real good question, Eric.
I suspect that Realms churches often have strong traditions that run along gender lines, and that they were constructed that way in part because that's how churches work in our world, and Ed is a product of our world. And yes, there's probably a certain sympathy between the traditional gender of the deity and the gender preference among its followers, though sometimes it might be mismatched, depending on whom the deity appeals to.
Perhaps it's a bit like celebrities in our world: it's generally more expected for men to identify with male celebrities and women to identify with female celebrities, rather than vice versa. It's easier to see yourself as that entity if you share something as core to your identity as a gender.
Just a thought. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 22:43:36
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| Sidebar: I believe Labelas Enoreth, the elven deity of time, is or was listed as appearing as both male and female at once. I think this is more about being beyond gender, rather than non-binary as we would explain it in our world..but I still liked that concept in the early D&D days! |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2020 : 23:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Sidebar: I believe Labelas Enoreth, the elven deity of time, is or was listed as appearing as both male and female at once.
The same goes for Corellon Larethian, right?
Also, a big YAY! to see Erik Scott de Bie again at Candlekeep!
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2020 : 00:26:11
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| Yes! Sorry forgot to include that both Corellon and Labelas are fluid in their gender and appear both male and female; although I believe I've only seen/read of them in male form in the Realms to date. |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2020 : 19:52:51
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| I have always assumed that Alusair Obarskyr and Caladnei were an item. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2020 : 22:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
To add a small bit to what Erik so very well said; while the queerness of the early characters was not in your face, I don't recall any characters being homophobic or gaybashing in any of the novels or sourcebooks - despite acknowledging say Yanseldara and Vaerana as a couple (which no one has any problem with).
I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all. Fascinated by any of the pre-2000s gay references though; very few of them!
Didn't Lhaeo get married to a woman and become a king? I mean, it does make sense that he might live with an ultra-powerful archmage for protection purposes without it getting sexual. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2020 : 23:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That said, there's also the fact that, among drow, women are naturally more attracted to divine magic, while males are to arcane (or so it was back in the 2e/3e era, when Ed introduced this concept).
I'm not sure that was anything more than a cultural thing: most drow societies revolve around Lolth, who favored female clergy. Drow males wanting to do something other than swing a sword didn't have many other options, aside from the arcane.
I've always assumed that it was innate, given that the drow's favorite class was cleric for women and wizard for men, no matter which faith/culture they came from, but it might just be that it was a cultural thing and WotC didn't bother to change it for different factions (which should have been done, IMO, at least for the Vhaeraunites). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jan 2020 23:04:29 |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
770 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 07:02:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Didn't Lhaeo get married to a woman and become a king? I mean, it does make sense that he might live with an ultra-powerful archmage for protection purposes without it getting sexual.
I would suspect key words like "lisping" and "simpering" are what Seravin is put off by. In a larger world they may be valid as character descriptors, but they become less so when applied to your only in-print (ostensibly) gay character "man-lover" (again, as Seravin said, not something that aged well).
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AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 09 Jan 2020 07:04:36 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 11:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
To add a small bit to what Erik so very well said; while the queerness of the early characters was not in your face, I don't recall any characters being homophobic or gaybashing in any of the novels or sourcebooks - despite acknowledging say Yanseldara and Vaerana as a couple (which no one has any problem with).
I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all. Fascinated by any of the pre-2000s gay references though; very few of them!
Didn't Lhaeo get married to a woman and become a king? I mean, it does make sense that he might live with an ultra-powerful archmage for protection purposes without it getting sexual.
Yes he definitely did marry a woman and become king; and while he was masquerading as Elminster's boytoy he dated Storm on the side (not much was made of their relationship in the books though). He was never gay, just pretending to be because I guess no one would suspect an heir to the throne to be gay??? That's what's irritating about the whole concept. And I think that is Ed's idea... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 13:33:15
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| gotcha, I thought you were intimating that he was and they were trying to hide it in the books. I can definitely seem him pretending if it protects him. Hell, Jack did it on Three's Company. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 22:11:57
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| Lol I never would have connected Jack Tripper and Lhaeo...god bless Candlekeep! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2020 : 07:34:56
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Ed has written plenty on this topic here at the 'Keep. Like this:
Ed's efforts:
The quick answer to your initial question is that every time I try to write anything non-standard regarding gender and characters who are “strong”/dominant or “weak”/submissive [strong females paired or interacting with weaker males, for example, such as Shandril and Narm] my editors have fits (“Doesn’t fit our readership! Will hurt sales! Must fix at once!”). Such things “don’t fit” the genre expectations.
In various ways, there’s been a (usually friendly) tug-of-war between me and TSR/WotC/Hasbro over various details of the Realms since my first hints of the Realms were published in (what was then) “The Dragon” back in 1979. The “original” Realms, “my” Realms, was my own imaginary fantasy setting for fiction before D&D® ever existed, and then my own D&D campaign world for years before it became an “official” D&D® setting. It was purchased to be the official ‘home’ of the 2nd Edition D&D® game, and therefore by definition had to be, and still must be, ‘all things to all people.’
In light of that prime philosophy and publishing need, it’s foolish to upset some Realms fans by stating matters too baldly and being too definite when we (various Realms designers and authors) can HINT to our collective hearts’ content -- and in doing so, leave DMs full leeway to run particular characters however best suits their principles and preferences.
In fact, it’s ALWAYS better design work to hint (“Elminster says he’s heard of many orc sightings in and about the ruins”) rather than stating things too precisely (“There are six orcs and one hobgoblin in the ruins, and they’ll be found waiting for PCs in the following rooms . . .”). Hence the very existence of unreliable narrators such as Elminster, and storytelling colour (“fluff” to some) over rules stats in most Realms writings. The Realms is people (characters) and THEIR STORIES, not stats -- and not merely their bedchamber preferences, either.
It should come as news to no one that many consumers, particularly in the United States, have religious and societal views that clash with in-thy-face lesbian, gay male, and bisexual lifestyles.
With that said, yes there are a LOT of “non-modern-real-world-American-mores-standard” relationships in the Realms. I don’t make a big issue of it for several reasons.
First, offending some fans as referred to above. Secondly, TSR Code of Ethics/WotC and Hasbro Code of Conduct prohibitions (e.g. on sodomy, incest, etc.) and editorial censorship, which has (as some scribes have already noted) by and large been relaxing over the years, but has occasionally reached ridiculous heights. For example, I once had a fight with a DRAGON assistant editor over an article (which I refused to finish, under such conditions) wherein I wrote that many Arthurian tales describe Lancelot and Guinevere as “lovers,” and was told that I couldn’t use the word “lovers” or IN ANY WAY IMPLY extramarital sex (i.e. Arthur could be assumed to make love to his wife so long as I made no direct reference to it, but I couldn’t even hint that someone else could). Sheesh. I directed the editor to the standard roster of Greek and Roman myths, legends, and fables for hardcore sexual hijinks, but she dismissed my point as irrelevant.
So what you correctly refer to as “dance around definitions,” is how staffers at WotC have to operate, and merely good business sense (again, those who wish to read the obvious hints re. lifestyles can do so, and those offended by such matters don’t get their noses rubbed in it so harshly that it ruins their enjoyment of the setting). simontrinity is correct in saying that I can go much farther in sexual matters (and, yes, innuendo, which I enjoy) these days than I could when I started writing Realms books. So the horizons ARE widening.
However, my great friend and Realms-champion Steven Schend has, as usual, already said it best in this thread: that we shouldn’t be defining characters by their sexual preferences. There’s far more to people than their jobs, or their hobbies, or how they like to dress, or how they engage in sexual behaviour.
I’ve actually written many gay (and far more bi- ) males and females into the Realms that NO ONE recognizes as such, purely because they DON’T adopt modern real-world sterotypical styles (such as so-called “butch” behaviour or effeminate “limp-wristed and lisping”).
In “my” Realms, there’s no general prejudice against love of same gender or love of both genders. There ARE individuals who hold such prejudices, and in general, members of nobility or royalty or any other group in which lineage and inheritance is important frown on deviance from whatever their locally accepted norm of pairing is, so that “the line can be maintained in a clear, can’t-be-challenged manner.”
In Fiction:
I’m not sure if you’ll see a clearly lesbian or gay male character in a novel soon, because the only way to give them that status “clearly” is to engage in protracted sex scenes, which are seldom okay with editors (a story would have to be constructed that would make such matters integral to the plotline and not “gratuitous,” and although I can and have written colourful porn, it’s not something WotC would welcome in the Realms line). Let’s just see how far I can go in the Knights novels, shall we? :}
And yes, I regard your problem (“I personally would love to see characters in the Realms that I can personally relate to, and I keep coming up short.”) as something that Realms fiction as a whole should address, for as wide a variety of Realms readers as we can collectively manage. So in design or creative terms, there is or should be a “place at the table” for, say, openly lesbian characters.
Bear in mind, however, that many Realms fans delight in pouncing on me for being a dirty-minded “pervert” (most of them, of course, not even understanding the meaning of that word) for merely showing casual nudity, kissing, caresses, and even footrubs in my fiction . . . things many Canadians (and, from my conversations with them, more than a few Americans) who went to summer camp in their teens accepted as normal in such settings. (And being as the Realms is “my” setting, *I* get to define what is ‘normal’ in the Realms; that’s even in the original Realms agreement).
and:
On to polyamory (committed relationships): quite common in backlands Realms villages, often ‘dressed up’ in annual festival customs (such as Midsummer Night) to make the maximum number of people comfortable with it. In many farming and frontier areas of the Realms, “families” dwelling and working together may consist of several males and several females, not “one-man-one-woman.” Again, don’t expect this to be underscored in print in official products, because it points towards incest and the polygamous controversies current in some American states, and in general upsets some folks who might otherwise happily buy Realms products. Remember the editorial fits I caused just mentioning brothelsXXXX ahem, “festhalls.” My view was that I was just reporting, a la National Geographic: ‘The native women have long, floppy . . .’ and the TSR editors disagreed violently. BTW, the very existence of all those brothels point to the number of men and women in the Realms who want casual sex, or who don’t get what they want at home, or who don’t want to wait until they get home. Sex IS alive and well in the Realms.
Please also always remember that the long-lived members of the Chosen are EXCEPTIONS to the rules: their very longevity and loss of sanity leads them to grasp at affection whenever they can, and to consider themselves so far beyond all notions of prudishness and propriety (they’ve outlived entire kingdoms full of social thou-shalt-nots, and been around long enough to see many priesthoods make major changes in doctrine) that they just don’t care what others may think of them -- unless they need the support and aid of particular “others” at the moment.
So, yes, Alustriel does take pleasure in hosting orgies in which she physically enjoys both males and females, and lots of them enjoy each other, and lah dee dee dah dah. This does not make her a nymphomaniac, an empty-headed lust bunny, or deficient in any way. In fact, she’s achieved more through seduction and founding firm friendships and making others long for another chance to dive into the comfort of one of Alustriel’s large and well-filled baths than many rulers ever manage with dozens of treaties and scores of wars, skirmishes, and threats.
If you need validation, yes, Alustriel and Zelauma make love. Storm makes love with both guys and gals (the Harpers don’t regard her as a ‘den mother’ for nothing :} ). Think of her as the comforting arms they run to, for advice and soothing companionship and understanding. However, she does as much listening and dispensing warm soup as she does riding and being ridden.
And:
I hesitate to wander around identifying major NPCs as gay males or females, because someone else reading this may be far more comfortable in their use of the Realms if I never put such notions into their heads regarding particular characters.
So let me say just this much: most males in the Realms weep, hug, and even caress and kiss as much as real-world modern females do. How comfortable a given character is with doing such things with others of the same gender (or, for that matter, with persons of different races) varies widely -- but it’s safe to say that given the opportunity, most characters have “tried everything” at least once, and between travelers outside their own communities (where such acts might well upset family members, especially if loss of virginity is involved), there’s little or no stigma in such experimentation.
Please note the full implications of this: if your character in the Realms is part of an adventuring “party” and female or male characters in that party hop from bedroll to bedroll as nights on the trail pass, those bed-hoppers WILL NOT be generally viewed as “loose” or “perverted.” Note that I said “generally.” Couples in committed relationships whose partner goes off jumping the bones of others without prearrangement are going to feel just as hurt and betrayed as you might expect. Moreover, some characters will be uncomfortable with such behaviour, sometimes for religious reasons. Myself, I see this as best left to the roleplaying chemistry of individual gaming groups rather than shoved down anyone’s throat by my or anyone else’s Realms writings.
However, just between you and me (and of course everyone across the world with Net access who reads this :} ): I personally happen to be a guy who likes gals, but I’m quite comfortable kissing, hugging, and even caressing or comforting guys. Such activities don’t happen to turn me on sexually. I’m a “toucher,” and always have been: I hug and kiss a lot, perhaps more naturally than I shake hands (when greeting females formally, I was taught to kneel and kiss their hands). However, I know that such close contact gives a lot of people the creeps, and I have utterly no interest in upsetting people outside of a roleplaying session in which we’re both acting: if someone goes red or jerks away from me, oops: MY bad. That’s why I don’t want to write too forcefully about such things.
But I hint like crazy. Steven not only expressed Khelben and Laeral’s relationship perfectly, he directed you to some of his character writeups for a look-see, and I’ll do the same: look back over my Realms writings (such as the NPC sections of the Volo’s Guides) and the hints are there. Bushels of them, in fact. :}
Although overly aggressive butch lesbian behaviour and over-the-top prancing ‘mincing’ gay male behaviour both strike me as ridiculous, the relationships underlying them (including the physical sides of such relationships) do not. When the lesbians who happen to own the cottage four down from mine go out on their dock at dusk to make love, I don’t yell angrily at them, ridicule them, or rudely watch them, but if I happen to be out on my point (which is high enough to overlook their dock), I’ll smile and wave at first sight and then carry on as if they’re not doing anything. This has led to them in turn casually accepting my distant presence: they usually make love, then plunge in for a dip that includes lots of splashing and laughter, and then they climb back out on the dock to dry off (if the night’s too cold or mosquito-ridden for that, it’s on with the towels and back inside). Either way, they usually wave and call “good night” as they go.
That’s the same style and balance I’d like to strike in my Realms writings: casual acceptance of such matters for those interested in them, and a tacit agreement to overlook them for those who aren’t.
And as far as the Realms go:
In the list that follows, “ND” means ‘not derogatory,’ a neutral, formal term, acceptable in polite society conversations, proclamations, etc. “M” means mild (common figure of speech, not really an insult), and “E” means derived from Elvish slang. Also, assume descriptive phrases to be Common, and unfamiliar (invented) words to be words from various other languages and local dialects, adopted into Common. Materials inside quotation marks are pronunciations.
For obvious reasons, most of these will probably never appear in published Realms products.
male homosexual ND = liyan (E: “LEE-awwn”), praed (derived from gnome slang)
effeminate male homosexual = dathna ND, simpering man-lover
bisexual man ND = tasmar
lecher M = winker
Casanova,
tireless woman-chaser = cod-loose winker
masochistic man = dusk
[note: refers to a male who enjoys self-bondage and/or being bound, being whipped or pierced or otherwise hurt]
cross-dresser (either gender) ND = saece (E: “SAY-sss”)
male or female who enjoys being forcibly enspelled (including shapechanging)
as part of sexual play = wild one, thaethiira (E: “thAY-th-EAR-ah”)
prostitute ND = coin-lass, coin-lad
[note: the above is roughly the equivalent of our phrase “neighbourhood professional;” I haven’t listed less polite euphemisms because there are literally dozens]
lesbian ND = thruss
dyke = battlebud
butch (manly woman) = harnor
submissive female M = rose
masochistic female M = dusk rose
[note: the above refers to a female who enjoys self-bondage and/or being bound, being whipped or pierced or otherwise hurt]
‘loose’ female = wanton, slut, sreea (E: “SREE-uh”)
bisexual female = shaeda (E: “SHAY-dah”)
So there you have it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2020 : 07:48:33
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I really don’t love a lot of that! There’s some implications I find deeply uncomfortable, not least of which the one that a character couldn’t be gay without having sex on screen or fitting a feminine gay or butch lesbian stereotype. Neither too does kink, orgy hosting, or a Realmsian term for a slut (which I’m not sure needed to be said) have anything inherently to do with queer identity. Respect some of the man’s work, sure, but this sure does read like a very cis, very straight man fumbling some things, especially by focusing so much on the sexual.
Just means there’s more work to be done! |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2020 : 23:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I really don’t love a lot of that! There’s some implications I find deeply uncomfortable, not least of which the one that a character couldn’t be gay without having sex on screen or fitting a feminine gay or butch lesbian stereotype. Neither too does kink, orgy hosting, or a Realmsian term for a slut (which I’m not sure needed to be said) have anything inherently to do with queer identity. Respect some of the man’s work, sure, but this sure does read like a very cis, very straight man fumbling some things, especially by focusing so much on the sexual.
Just means there’s more work to be done!
I just posted slabs from Ed's Candlekeep posts, and wasn't selective re topic and didn't edit as I was in a bit of a rush - my bad.
And I suppose that's the truth of a made up place. It's not going to be to everyone's taste. You are free to change the Realms to suit your own worldview. Looks like you want to. Enjoy.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 10 Jan 2020 23:09:22 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2020 : 13:32:44
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In Erin Evans Fire in the Blood we learn that the dragonborn Mehen is openly gay. It's subtly done, he (or the author) don't come right out and throw it in your face, it's just sort of revealed that he doesn't "chase after women". I re-read the paragraph a few times, thinking "Is she trying to tell me that Mehen is gay?" Or that he just doesn't go out much looking for a mate, preferring to instead focus on raising his two foster daughters. But later on there is another dragonborn male that finds out about Mehen's sexual preferences and starts to get a little bit flirtatious with him. I was actually going to ask the board if homosexuality is more prevalent among dragonborn, seeing that there are two DB characters in this book and both are gay. Obviously a small sample size, so perhaps I shouldn't make any assumptions.
Mehen is known as "Clanless Mehen" for an indiscretion that caused him to be exiled from his people. At this point in the story that event had not been elaborated on, and I honestly wondered if him being gay was what got him kicked out of his home, but that turned out not to be the case, so hopefully we can cross homophobic off the list of dragonborn cultural mores.
As far as transgender go, I've long viewed the 4e+ genasi as a thinly-veiled metaphor for trans. They can alter their own elemental affinity to another subtype if they don't "feel comfortable in their own skin". There were two novels, I can't think of the names now, that utilized this racial feature prominently. One mentioned how a firesoul, born to two firesoul parents, never felt "right" about themselves, and transitioned themselves to another element. I know that's probably not exactly what you're looking for keftiu, that the only acceptable trans are magical misfits that need to utilize fantastical, mystical metamorphoses to become their best version. But acceptance usually comes in small increments, so I saw this as at least an encouraging attempt (albeit probably perceived as fumbling among your community) by WotC. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2020 : 17:06:53
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George, when was that excerpt from Ed you shared originally posted? Is it recent or from years ago?
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Originally posted by Seravin
Sidebar: I believe Labelas Enoreth, the elven deity of time, is or was listed as appearing as both male and female at once. I think this is more about being beyond gender, rather than non-binary as we would explain it in our world..but I still liked that concept in the early D&D days!
I consider all the elven deities to be genderfluid, just like I consider all elves to be to some extent genderfluid. That's even a mechanical thing built into 5e!
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Originally posted by Irennan
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That said, there's also the fact that, among drow, women are naturally more attracted to divine magic, while males are to arcane (or so it was back in the 2e/3e era, when Ed introduced this concept).
I'm not sure that was anything more than a cultural thing: most drow societies revolve around Lolth, who favored female clergy. Drow males wanting to do something other than swing a sword didn't have many other options, aside from the arcane.
I've always assumed that it was innate, given that the drow's favorite class was cleric for women and wizard for men, no matter which faith/culture they came from, but it might just be that it was a cultural thing and WotC didn't bother to change it for different factions (which should have been done, IMO, at least for the Vhaeraunites).
This gets into a larger conversation about nature vs. nurture, but speaking about the Realms in a narrative sense, I tend to fall on the "cultural" side of the argument.
Drow society has been dominated by Lolth and her evil matriarchy* for basically the entire existence of the drow, so obviously the beliefs and expectations are baked into them from an early age. The priesthood of Vhaeraun is actively rebelling against that, but even so they can't just automatically shake off their cultural conditioning.
The mechanics are kind of a moot point now that 5e doesn't include "favored classes," but it's an interesting conversation piece.
(*Note my qualifier: not all matriarchies are evil, obviously, and it is very clear the drow structure of government is intensely evil.)
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I really don’t love a lot of that! There’s some implications I find deeply uncomfortable, not least of which the one that a character couldn’t be gay without having sex on screen or fitting a feminine gay or butch lesbian stereotype. Neither too does kink, orgy hosting, or a Realmsian term for a slut (which I’m not sure needed to be said) have anything inherently to do with queer identity. Respect some of the man’s work, sure, but this sure does read like a very cis, very straight man fumbling some things, especially by focusing so much on the sexual.
I acknowledge your discomfort with Ed's wording--he is a product of his era, which doesn't excuse it, obviously. And I agree, this definitely sounds like a very cis, very straight man fumbling with some of these concepts.
Ed and I are old friends, and I do believe his heart is in the right place. He just doesn't always have the best words to express it.
I do want to clarify one thing, which is that I don't think he's saying one *can't be LGBT" or something without engaging in sexual activity, etc. Rather, he's saying that an author would have trouble in the Realms *clearly marking* a character as *not cishet* without talking about their sexual activities.
Now, whether that's true or not is debatable (I personally think there are plenty of ways to do that), but when we talk about having "real, unambiguous representation," generally cishet people just don't pick up on subtlety, and the cisheteronormative culture warriors will come out of the woodwork to explain away or burn to the ground any potential queer content. I say that, speaking from experience, as an author who has intentionally stuffed queer content into my books, unabashedly, but still finds readers constantly ignoring, overlooking, or explaining it away.
It's frustrating, is what it is.
But I do think the Realms is evolving and getting better about all this, as I've noted before.
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Just means there’s more work to be done!
Ain't that the gods-damned truth.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 12 Jan 2020 17:07:56 |
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Queer Culture in the Realms
