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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 06:35:06
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| Sage, thank you for the information. However, I was reading the third book of the WotSQ series and the place was still infested with devils at that time. Doesn't the events of WotSQ series take place in present times of Faerun? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31715 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 06:39:22
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Hellgate has been, for all intents and purposes, pacified. In 1368 DR, several attacks made by elven forces against the Keep served to weaken the strangle-hold the baatezu had. Members of the Harpers then saw to it to use powerful magics in an effort to eradicate the few remaining devils, and destroy the Keep. After that, the great treant Turlang, moved into the immediate area and sealed the perimeter of the ruins, preventing any remaining fiends from escaping and causing more havoc.
The details concerning the escaped devils (or Fey'ri) can be found within the Races of Faerun tome, and the Lords of Darkness sourcebook.
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Edited by - The Sage on 29 Apr 2004 06:42:11 |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 06:57:08
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Thanks Arvia and Sage.
Is it plausible to say in a possible campaign a Baatezu saved by demonfey is recruting monsters and barbarians to destroy silvermarches? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31715 Posts |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 07:32:09
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Of course, Sage, but I don't see where any of their infinite schemese are goin to  . I think as for the dms it is unlike to think about the whole big picture  .
I have some questions, though
Do devils recruit monsters better than demons?
Might demonfey cooporate with devils to see the destruction of silvermarches?
And devils won't hasitate to use any creature even their most hated foes' offspring, Fey'ri, am I right?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31715 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 09:21:07
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As a matter of course, devils don't usually recruit demons - of any kind or rank. Tanar'ri simply do not have the ability to comprehend the lawful ways of devils. Any type of order or structure a Pit Fiend would try to enforce upon a group of lesser tanar'ri would likely be a waste of time. Tanar'ri are chaotic by nature, they don't see the need for the ways of law, when chaos and destruction can better serve their aims.
Aside from that, devils and demons don't get along...period!. You see, there's this 'little' conflict raging across the Infernal Planes called the Blood War. For the most part, it is being waged by devils and demons, in an effort to determine the one true evil in the multiverse - LE or CE. The war has been raging since long before the Reckoning, and will likely continue to rage long after the Chosen are but a faint memory in the eternal mind of Ao.
So, taking that all into consideration...there's simply no way that demons and devils can work together.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 00:00:14
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I almost get it.
But I wonder if devils want to compete with the deities.
I read about Asmadeus and other fellas and they are strong as the
avatars of the many deities of fearunean pantheon.
And I don't know if they have worshipers would they have godlike powers and do one of them Asmadus or the other rulers of nine hells want to be worshiped by the folk of fearun.
help me to understand my fellow scribes. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31715 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 08:11:49
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Asmodeus is for all intents and purposes, a deity. He simply lacks the common traits normally associated with a power. For example, other than the myriad cults of the Lord of the Nine Hells that populate so many worlds, Asmodeus has no organised circle of worshippers. Therefore he gains no power from the faith of his believers.
It is known however, that Asmodeus has never completely revealed the full extent of his power. It is also said that the Master Archfiend can reduce, or even deny the abilities of the other arch-devils. He might and personal power is greater than the other eight arch-devils combined. He is simply prevented from using most of his power because he is essentially trapped in the Pit of the Nine Hells as Nessus.
The other arch-devils are simply the true exemplars of their kind. Their power and ability sets them above the average pit fiends, but lower than the weakest demi-god -- they exist in the undefined gray area between mortal and deity.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 09:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Asmodeus is for all intents and purposes, a deity. He simply lacks the common traits normally associated with a power. For example, other than the myriad cults of the Lord of the Nine Hells that populate so many worlds, Asmodeus has no organised circle of worshippers. Therefore he gains no power from the faith of his believers.
Ah well no, not quite. See in 3/3.5's FR there are NO deities in the Abyss or Baator. :) The Player's Guide says he has the power of a deity, but he is NOT a deity. Same with Orcus, up until the Players Guide Orcus was a FR deity, now he is like a deity, he can grant spells like a deity, but he is NOT a deity. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 11:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Asmodeus is for all intents and purposes, a deity. He simply lacks the common traits normally associated with a power. For example, other than the myriad cults of the Lord of the Nine Hells that populate so many worlds, Asmodeus has no organised circle of worshippers. Therefore he gains no power from the faith of his believers.
Ah well no, not quite. See in 3/3.5's FR there are NO deities in the Abyss or Baator. :) The Player's Guide says he has the power of a deity, but he is NOT a deity. Same with Orcus, up until the Players Guide Orcus was a FR deity, now he is like a deity, he can grant spells like a deity, but he is NOT a deity.
You're forgetting the Sage's penchant for favoring Planescape over 3e material-and it seems to have rubbed off on other scribes, including me. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31715 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 12:44:41
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That's exactly right Arivia. I've never used any of the arch-demon/arch-devil data in the BoVD. I still heavily rely on my PS material for that.
And since the majority of planar players here, are opting to continue to follow the 'Great Wheel' cosmology, I just decided to talk about Asmodeus as he was in the previous edition (and still should be in this edition as well  ).
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 17:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It is known however, that Asmodeus has never completely revealed the full extent of his power. It is also said that the Master Archfiend can reduce, or even deny the abilities of the other arch-devils. He might and personal power is greater than the other eight arch-devils combined. He is simply prevented from using most of his power because he is essentially trapped in the Pit of the Nine Hells as Nessus.
I remember reading about how the real Asmodeus is trapped in a pit, with wounds that are still severe even after centuries. The Asmodeus that everyone sees or hears about is really just a powerful illusion spell or even just an avatar. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 18:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
You're forgetting the Sage's penchant for favoring Planescape over 3e material-and it seems to have rubbed off on other scribes, including me.
Ah, then I have to agree with him. :) But I didn't realize he was still using the Wheel/Ring. So I apoligize Sage. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36792 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 19:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And since the majority of planar players here, are opting to continue to follow the 'Great Wheel' cosmology, I just decided to talk about Asmodeus as he was in the previous edition (and still should be in this edition as well ).
*snickers* I'm not a planar player -- I got Planescape when it first came out, but then I traded it in, because it just didn't grab me.
But I did like the presentation of the planes, and I recognize that FR was part of the planar structure. Thus, I disagree with the 3e cosmology. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 03:55:54
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Uh oh, Furry One.  I think the Sage is about to put you in his little black book. 
Either that, or he's going to summon Guido, his demon enforcer. You know, that horned, fanged guy in the pinstriped suit with that huge violin case?  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 17:34:36
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I remember reading about how the real Asmodeus is trapped in a pit, with wounds that are still severe even after centuries. The Asmodeus that everyone sees or hears about is really just a powerful illusion spell or even just an avatar.
Quoting Arravis's PDF on the Nine Hells:
Serpent’s Coil:
Brutally repressed rumors suggest that there is more to Asmodeus then he admits. The story goes that the true form of Asmodeus actually resides in the deepest rift of Nessus called the Serpent’s Coil. The shape seen by all the other devils of the Nine Hells in the fortress of Malsheem is actually a highly advanced use of the Project Image spell or an avatar of some sort. The secret rift, formed by Asmodeus’s plummeting body when he first arrived in the Nine Hells, spirals inward over the course of hundreds of miles. His titanic, miles-long form still rests here… and his wounds have yet to heal. The acid-black blood pools in the hollows of the rift, a substance fouler then foul. From where fell Asmodeus? Was he once a greater deity cast down from Elysium or Celestia, or is he older yet, as the rumor hints? Perhaps he represents some fundamental entity whose mere existence pulls the multiverse into its current configuration. Nobody who tells the story of Asmodeus’s “true” form lives more then 24 hours after repeating it aloud. But dusty scrolls in hard-to-reach libraries (such as Demogorgon’s citadel in the Abyss) yet record this knowledge. Unless it is pure fancy, of course.
I hope this helps to answer your question.  |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 18:42:17
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So this just a legend or is Asmodeus really trapped down in the pit?
BTW, in Elminster in Hell, Mystra transferred Halaster's madness to Asmodeus. Does he still have it now? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Abizoath
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 04:49:33
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| If you guys want to see some buff-up versions of the BOVD creatures, which weren't even made using epic rules which made them seem quite pathetic, check out http://community.dicefreaks.com/ just go to their forums and look into the epic section, they have statted up the Lords of the Nine, many of the Demon Princes, and restatted many deities to make them more impressive. They make the book of vile darkness creatures as ants to a titan. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 09:47:59
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Out of curiosity has anyone done anything with the whole Graz'zt vs Waukeen plotline? I'd think he has some unfinished business with her and her minions... err followers.
Sarta |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 22:10:26
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| Sarta, I think it would be the other way around, with Waukeen having some unfinished business with him. After all, Waukeen did recover her powers and I don't think Graz'zt is dumb enough to mess with a God. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:18:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sarta, I think it would be the other way around, with Waukeen having some unfinished business with him. After all, Waukeen did recover her powers and I don't think Graz'zt is dumb enough to mess with a God.
A. A minor one. At divine rank 7 you don't pick fights with lords of hell unless you have a lot of backup, which leads to...
B. There's no profit in revenge.
Sarta |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:22:19
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Umm... Graz'zt isn't a lord of Hell. In fact, he's not even a devil. Lol.
As for backup, I'm sure there are many gods (ex. Leira) that are willing to help Waukeen and defeat an evil like Graz'zt.
BTW, not everything is for profit. Fine, if you want to look at it in business terms, then Graz'zt screwed Waukeen over in a business deal during the Times of Trouble. You could say she is getting back what is owned. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
... there are many gods (ex. Leira)...
 Well, actually, Leira is dead by Cyric's hand, and has been for quite some time... I assume you are referring to Lliira, Lady of Joy?
And you are indeed correct, Graz'zt is from the Abyss, and is a prime example of Tanar'ri, not an Archdevil from the Hells.  |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 06:06:28
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Yes, my spelling mistake. Stupid Faerunian names...  |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 21:02:42
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There was an arch-devil banished form hell who is a deity now. Gargauth is his name, I suppose.
he should be a demi god now but can he organize assault to improve his status among deties.
Maybe he will suggest summoning nycoloths to destroy the believers of Cyric or attacking north with the allignence of Bane. They may destroy Cyric together and hold north to prevent Shade' s future invasion plans.
Are there any ideas about Gargauth and his possible schemes? |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 00:23:47
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Gargauth can improve his status if he can kill other deities and take their portfolios. He has the same opportunity to gain power as other demigods.
I agree with you about him going after Cyric and Shar since he opposes them, which I find strange since he's also an evil deity. Also, I think Gargauth is scheming to destroy Siamorphe because he enjoys corrupting people of virtue like her worshipers who are mostly nobles. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 06:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
And you are indeed correct, Graz'zt is from the Abyss, and is a prime example of Tanar'ri, not an Archdevil from the Hells.
Graz'zt's highly secretive and deceptive nature makes that impossible for primes and planars to know for sure. There has been speculation in the past by certain learned greybeards that Graz'zt is in fact not a Tanar'ri lord, but something else. Graz'zt's past is as fractured as the planes themselves, and it is said by some of the wisest (?) arch-devils that Graz'zt may even be a fallen deity.
Investigations by the Dark Eight have uncovered several ancient and tattered manuscripts across many Material Plane worlds that all make reference to a deity that seems to much the description of Graz'zt's true form. The youngest manuscript dates to several millenia past, and is believed to have been written just after the Reckoning. This in itself lends validity to the rumor that Graz'zt is actually a Baatezu, and would explain his "fall from grace" in the Nine Hells power pyramid so to speak that Asmodeus once made reference to.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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Malkor
Acolyte
Netherlands
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 10:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
So this just a legend or is Asmodeus really trapped down in the pit?
BTW, in Elminster in Hell, Mystra transferred Halaster's madness to Asmodeus. Does he still have it now?
Hey all, my first post here.
This frightens me, how can Mystra transfer Halasters madness to a another greater god? (The Asmodeus in stats is just merely an Avatar imo and according to the Guide of Hell)
"In truth, Asmodeus is a greater power, just like Jazirian. However, the twin serpents predate the rules of belief in the planes. They neither gain power from the adoration of mortals, nor lose it from lack of worship. This only helps Asmodeus convince his enemies that he is not a real power"
Hope that clears a bit :)
Not only this would mean that:
Possibility 1:
Asmodous would be considered "chaotic" cause suffering from the madness which he got now. If Asmodous would be Chaotic, if he becomes chaotic, other baatezu becomes chaotic? He is after all considered the Father of Baatezu.
That would mean demons and devils become both chaotic evil? ...Think of that..
Possibility 2
Not only that, but by directly interferring Mystra doomed herself. What force can withstand the forces hidding in Nexus. According to the Guide of hell Asmo's home is big enough to house millions of devls. Each devil born of Asmodeus his blood is considered a perfect speciment, with maximum HD.
Imagine a horde of Pit fiends and corgunons attack a greater god...even a god cannot withstand a million devils. In other words mystra will be torn apart. Magic on FR stops again...new god of magic rises and ect ect. nice epic campaign :)
Note that these devils can attack without the fear that the demons will conquer hell, they where not used in the defenses in the bloodwar. They are just asmo's private forces.
Second possibility here is that Asmo will plot mystra's downfall in the long run. Being the essence of Lawfull evil and master plotter of the planar worlds....
Sorry for my bad english |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 11:59:33
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Now is Asmodeus Halaster's madness?
That doesn't make sense.
As far as I know, Asmodeus, even his avatar is much older than Halaster and Halaster is still mad, at least his clones.
What am I missing? |
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Malkor
Acolyte
Netherlands
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 12:31:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
Now is Asmodeus Halaster's madness?
That doesn't make sense.
As far as I know, Asmodeus, even his avatar is much older than Halaster and Halaster is still mad, at least his clones.
What am I missing?
I think he meant to say that Mystra transfered Halaster his madness to Asmodeus.
Which i think is highly unlikely |
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Demon and Devil plots on Toril
