quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

to restore Thay to its traditional racist, enslaving, weather controlling roots and they try to restore their land.

---

Guess I prefer more the undead-governed Thay now... (emphasis mine)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

None, yet. My Realms campaigns are focused in Tymanther and Neverwinter. The latter means Thay is going to be visited by the players at some point (as the Thayans are one of the main evil factions in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). So, I'll be planning something sooner or later.

However, if you want me to choose between generic necroland #17 and generic magocracy of evil slavers #300, I'm going to chose the necroland. At least there the common evil tropes can be justified...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

None, yet. My Realms campaigns are focused in Tymanther and Neverwinter. The latter means Thay is going to be visited by the players at some point (as the Thayans are one of the main evil factions in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). So, I'll be planning something sooner or later.

However, if you want me to choose between generic necroland #17 and generic magocracy of evil slavers #300, I'm going to chose the necroland. At least there the common evil tropes can be justified...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I can certainly appreciate that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cpthero2
What about an evil group of druids? Huh? Compelling. Even better........generic magocracy of evil slavers who contract out to undead druids who live nearby? haha

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Both of my campaigns take place in 1480 DR, so in the 4e years, but yes, Tymanther is a 4e thing that still exist in 5e.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I can certainly appreciate that.

---

Sure, as soon as I finish updating my campaign diary, I can share my ideas here (it usually takes time, as I have to translate it Spanish to English, and my English is self-learned and full of grammar fails, lol).

But, so far, in my campaign the Thayans are locked in a war with the Eminence of Araunt, and this is what allows the players to ignore Thay and pursue their own agenda.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eminence_of_Araunt

quote:

---

Originally posted by cpthero2
What about an evil group of druids? Huh? Compelling. Even better........generic magocracy of evil slavers who contract out to undead druids who live nearby? haha

---

I can see the merit of this idea,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

None, yet. My Realms campaigns are focused in Tymanther and Neverwinter. The latter means Thay is going to be visited by the players at some point (as the Thayans are one of the main evil factions in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). So, I'll be planning something sooner or later.

However, if you want me to choose between generic necroland #17 and generic magocracy of evil slavers #300, I'm going to chose the necroland. At least there the common evil tropes can be justified...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

None, yet. My Realms campaigns are focused in Tymanther and Neverwinter. The latter means Thay is going to be visited by the players at some point (as the Thayans are one of the main evil factions in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). So, I'll be planning something sooner or later.

However, if you want me to choose between generic necroland #17 and generic magocracy of evil slavers #300, I'm going to chose the necroland. At least there the common evil tropes can be justified...

---

Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.

---

Oh, sorry. I guess it sounded like if I was criticizing your idea, but I was talking about the canonical Thay. If it's just another magocracy of evulz slavers (that, TBH, there's a LOT of those in the Realms... like 5 or 6 in Faerūn alone), then I prefer it's 4e incarnation. And, honestly, I fail to see the alure of the original canon Thay if it just yet another evil nation of evil, racist/speciesist slavers...

Your idea of the tarches is really good (I've said this in a lot of post now, lol), tho I have a few qualms because it bends to much the canonical stuff.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, if I've understood the novels correctly (as English is not my native tongue, I may be lost in translation), but it seems Tam is not interested in Aglarond at all. He needs a place where his ritual can be done, but Aglarond don't meet the requirements. Neverwinter does (the large number of casualties during the eruption of Mount Hotenow and the subsequent destruction of the city). Thay also meet those requirements until the ritual was botched by the other Zulkirs, just a year before the starting date of a 4e campaign. I guess this is why Tam just send forces to stop invaders, but never attacks in earnest. He gains nothing conquering Aglarond.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by keftiu

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still would have preferred to see the Thayan Civil War I've discussed before: Szass Tam makes a play for power but it doesn't go as planned, and some Zulkirs side with him, while others -- including the Red Wal-Mart guys -- set up a Thay-In-Exile government in Mulmaster.

Both sides would have been working against the other, and just about every power group in the Realms would have some sort of involvement -- either stirring things up between the two factions, or trying to aid one faction over the other. Some groups would be doing it for their own power, some just to make money, some would work against one or both groups for ideological reasons...

I'm not saying it would be like the clumsy faction stuff that WotC's doing, with groups being involved in issues that have no interest to them and are clearly beyond their sphere of influence... But given the reach of the Red Wizards and their varied interests, a lot of groups would have reason to interfere, to varying degrees.

It would be a huge opportunity for role-playing, because of that... And for me, at least, far more interesting than Generic Necro-Land #17.

---

I mean, that very much could be somewhere in the 5e story since we don’t know how Thay went from Tam’s nightmareland to 5e’s return to status quo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by keftiu


I would assume killing everyone there would generate the death energy for his rite. And he is on the offensive; 4e FRCS establishes he captured a border city, Undummor, that’s being used as a beachheads, and will probably push over the border into Glarondar, too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


5e Thay isn't back at the status quo. It's still a mostly undead nation, but the difference is that there are factions of living Red Wizards wanting to restore the Zulkirate. Apparently, however, they have reached some kind of agreement with Tam? Maybe? Not sure, the SCAG made it sound like this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X


It depends on the source you use. And I mean it. The SCAG mentions the truce you talk about. But Death in Thay mentions Tam was expelled from Thay. Problem is, the SCAG is the newer source... and then the AL adventures state Tam is still in Thay, but the living mages are there as well...

Welcome to 5e's lore "consistency". And people here only complaints about 4e.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, if I've understood the novels correctly (as English is not my native tongue, I may be lost in translation), but it seems Tam is not interested in Aglarond at all. He needs a place where his ritual can be done, but Aglarond don't meet the requirements. Neverwinter does (the large number of casualties during the eruption of Mount Hotenow and the subsequent destruction of the city). Thay also meet those requirements until the ritual was botched by the other Zulkirs, just a year before the starting date of a 4e campaign. I guess this is why Tam just send forces to stop invaders, but never attacks in earnest. He gains nothing conquering Aglarond.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan

quote:

---

Originally posted by keftiu

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still would have preferred to see the Thayan Civil War I've discussed before: Szass Tam makes a play for power but it doesn't go as planned, and some Zulkirs side with him, while others -- including the Red Wal-Mart guys -- set up a Thay-In-Exile government in Mulmaster.

Both sides would have been working against the other, and just about every power group in the Realms would have some sort of involvement -- either stirring things up between the two factions, or trying to aid one faction over the other. Some groups would be doing it for their own power, some just to make money, some would work against one or both groups for ideological reasons...

I'm not saying it would be like the clumsy faction stuff that WotC's doing, with groups being involved in issues that have no interest to them and are clearly beyond their sphere of influence... But given the reach of the Red Wizards and their varied interests, a lot of groups would have reason to interfere, to varying degrees.

It would be a huge opportunity for role-playing, because of that... And for me, at least, far more interesting than Generic Necro-Land #17.

---

I mean, that very much could be somewhere in the 5e story since we don’t know how Thay went from Tam’s nightmareland to 5e’s return to status quo.

---

5e Thay isn't back at the status quo. It's still a mostly undead nation, but the difference is that there are factions of living Red Wizards wanting to restore the Zulkirate. Apparently, however, they have reached some kind of agreement with Tam? Maybe? Not sure, the SCAG made it sound like this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

---

Originally posted by keftiu


I would assume killing everyone there would generate the death energy for his rite. And he is on the offensive; 4e FRCS establishes he captured a border city, Undummor, that’s being used as a beachheads, and will probably push over the border into Glarondar, too.

---

Yeah, but at the same time he is sending forces to Neverwinter AND waging war against the Netherese both in Neverwinter Wood and in the Shadowfell (and the NCS happens at the same time that the 4e FRCG). Plus, the 4e FRCG states that is at war with the Eminence of Araunt in the crypts and that stuff... so, Tam has more priorities than just Aglarond, and the necessity of turning Aglarond into Necroland #18 is something new (it arised last year, in the timeline of the 4e FRCG). And then, at all that stuff of 5e and the Thayan Revolution.

So, I see Aglarond as the least of his priorities right now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


5e Thay isn't back at the status quo. It's still a mostly undead nation, but the difference is that there are factions of living Red Wizards wanting to restore the Zulkirate. Apparently, however, they have reached some kind of agreement with Tam? Maybe? Not sure, the SCAG made it sound like this.

---

It depends on the source you use. And I mean it. The SCAG mentions the truce you talk about. But Death in Thay mentions Tam was expelled from Thay. Problem is, the SCAG is the newer source... and then the AL adventures state Tam is still in Thay, but the living mages are there as well...

Welcome to 5e's lore "consistency". And people here only complaints about 4e.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I think the lack of consistency and what not is just WotC as the deciders waking up and having a big bowl of "I don't give a crap" for breakfast. Which is sad. What can we do other than discuss it in detail here and kind of get good ideas to tool it into our own ends?

Best regards,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, those who know me know I've gone a different path, but one that kind of aligns with the goals of 5e. Basically, I feel the Tam taking over Thay and turning it into undead land was no good. I'd prefer that he get ousted and setup an undead place somewhere in the hordelands where he can still be a problem, but not one in Thay.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

for instance, there is a significant Crintri population that was to recapture Dambrath

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

---

Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I think the lack of consistency and what not is just WotC as the deciders waking up and having a big bowl of "I don't give a crap" for breakfast. Which is sad. What can we do other than discuss it in detail here and kind of get good ideas to tool it into our own ends?

Best regards,

---

I don't think WotC is to blame alone. I know some of them have a fame of disregarding lore, but a few others are known for caring about lore. The thing is that WotC answers to Hasbro. And Hasbro cares only about money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.

---

Oh, sorry. I guess it sounded like if I was criticizing your idea, but I was talking about the canonical Thay. If it's just another magocracy of evulz slavers (that, TBH, there's a LOT of those in the Realms... like 5 or 6 in Faerūn alone), then I prefer it's 4e incarnation. And, honestly, I fail to see the alure of the original canon Thay if it just yet another evil nation of evil, racist/speciesist slavers...

Your idea of the tarches is really good (I've said this in a lot of post now, lol), tho I have a few qualms because it bends to much the canonical stuff.

As for Tam vs the Eminence, in my Realms Lod is still alive (and I guess I'm going to ignore his canonical death), so for the moment, Tam and Lod are at odds. And as I said, the conflict it useful for my campaign as it allows the players to not feel themselves railroaded to fight against the Thayans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was thinking a bit about this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, those who know me know I've gone a different path, but one that kind of aligns with the goals of 5e. Basically, I feel the Tam taking over Thay and turning it into undead land was no good. I'd prefer that he get ousted and setup an undead place somewhere in the hordelands where he can still be a problem, but not one in Thay.

---

I feel that sending him to a faraway place like the Hordelands makes his threat irrelevant. I mean, the gist of an "evil, undead nation" is that it can be an immediate threat to (and a foil to) nations like Cormyr and the city-states of the Sword Coast, something that can be used as a "looming war in the horizon" kind of feeling, full of hooks for players and DMs. That's why I feel Thay is the perfect "actively evil nation" in the Realms: Is in a corner of the map, so you can have the other countries live "normal lives", but is close enough to the traditional "Feudal European-expy nations" to feel like its threat is a real one.

In the Hordelands Tam maybe will be a threat to Thay, but he will be not a relevant one to the rest of Faerūn.
He just will be wasted, like everything set in Kara-Tur.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

for instance, there is a significant Crintri population that was to recapture Dambrath

---

Aren't the Crinti another set of "evil slavers" NPCs? I'm beginning to wonder why people here like the "evil slaver culture" trope that much...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was thinking a bit about this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, those who know me know I've gone a different path, but one that kind of aligns with the goals of 5e. Basically, I feel the Tam taking over Thay and turning it into undead land was no good. I'd prefer that he get ousted and setup an undead place somewhere in the hordelands where he can still be a problem, but not one in Thay.

---

I feel that sending him to a faraway place like the Hordelands makes his threat irrelevant. I mean, the gist of an "evil, undead nation" is that it can be an immediate threat to (and a foil to) nations like Cormyr and the city-states of the Sword Coast, something that can be used as a "looming war in the horizon" kind of feeling, full of hooks for players and DMs. That's why I feel Thay is the perfect "actively evil nation" in the Realms: Is in a corner of the map, so you can have the other countries live "normal lives", but is close enough to the traditional "Feudal European-expy nations" to feel like its threat is a real one.

In the Hordelands Tam maybe will be a threat to Thay, but he will be not a relevant one to the rest of Faerūn.
He just will be wasted, like everything set in Kara-Tur.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

for instance, there is a significant Crintri population that was to recapture Dambrath

---

Aren't the Crinti another set of "evil slavers" NPCs? I'm beginning to wonder why people here like the "evil slaver culture" trope that much...

---

That all comes down to "do you want Tam to be the Sauron of the realms". Personally, I don't. For that role, we already have a being like Larloch. I'd rather Tam as a threat to the Eastern Realms. I throw out the hordelands because it is relatively near to Thay (just the other side of their own sunrise mountains). However, he could just as easily move into some place like the western portions of Chessenta (Cimbar and Soorenar both previously had huge populations, and Soorenar was the mortal home of the god of necromancy with its "Tower Terrible"). I personally wouldn't like that, but it could work.

On the Crintri/Dambrath… they weren't big slavers. They were racists and pirates though. They also worshipped Loviatar, so they were masochists. They were also a matriarchy that wasn't portrayed as mothering without having to be crazy drow beneath the surface. Essentially, they were a bunch of entitled females who believed they were better than everyone else and loved their horses more than other people. Now, why do I like this culture? Because just like in our world there are often people who are like this, but the way the realms is, it could encourage this. I've said in the past that the forgotten realms isn't politically correct, and by that I mean that people live a life where a monster might move in and eat their children, destroy their home, take their gold... so if someone provides protection, the "little people" are likely to be happy to let these same people think they are extremely important. So, if the Crintri want to roam the countryside and take invaders, strap them to a pole and whip them... hey at least those invaders aren't raping or eating the populace. Its that lack of fear of someone just coming in and destroying everything you own that's become lost in our own world/society that makes us sometimes not see why the realms would be different. But goblins exist there, and so do gnolls and orcs and ogres and unseelie fey, etc... and most such creatures view humans as a meal, plaything, or just simply something to kill.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas


I can see why in hindsight this culture tends to look like many of the others to you having come in after it fell, but Thay was a good bit different than the classic tropes, so if you don't mind I'll kind of touch on that for a second.

The big difference between them and other slave cultures comes down to how they used them to a degree. Unlike say Calimshan, which just grinds the lower classes down, or Unther that did much the same... Thay was a beautiful country, with abundant wealth and food for its citizens IN GENERAL. Most Thayan slaves were likely the cast off criminals taken from other countries. So, most citizens aren't oppressed by the ruling class. Basically, one can see why some people living in Thay could actually not see the evil in their country. They may make hard choices "but its for the good of the many". One can also see why they believe their race to be preeminent, because they aren't so advantaged that they believe they're entitled to their positions (Mulan people still must strive to advance within their government, and royalty only extends to one's children and not the grandchildren... so each generation must earn the right to be noble). Now, were all Thayan campaigns portrayed this way? No.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas


That all comes down to "do you want Tam to be the Sauron of the realms". Personally, I don't. For that role, we already have a being like Larloch. I'd rather Tam as a threat to the Eastern Realms. I throw out the hordelands because it is relatively near to Thay (just the other side of their own sunrise mountains). However, he could just as easily move into some place like the western portions of Chessenta (Cimbar and Soorenar both previously had huge populations, and Soorenar was the mortal home of the god of necromancy with its "Tower Terrible"). I personally wouldn't like that, but it could work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.

---

Oh, sorry. I guess it sounded like if I was criticizing your idea, but I was talking about the canonical Thay. If it's just another magocracy of evulz slavers (that, TBH, there's a LOT of those in the Realms... like 5 or 6 in Faerūn alone), then I prefer it's 4e incarnation. And, honestly, I fail to see the alure of the original canon Thay if it just yet another evil nation of evil, racist/speciesist slavers...

Your idea of the tarches is really good (I've said this in a lot of post now, lol), tho I have a few qualms because it bends to much the canonical stuff.

As for Tam vs the Eminence, in my Realms Lod is still alive (and I guess I'm going to ignore his canonical death), so for the moment, Tam and Lod are at odds. And as I said, the conflict it useful for my campaign as it allows the players to not feel themselves railroaded to fight against the Thayans.

---

I can see why in hindsight this culture tends to look like many of the others to you having come in after it fell, but Thay was a good bit different than the classic tropes, so if you don't mind I'll kind of touch on that for a second.

The big difference between them and other slave cultures comes down to how they used them to a degree. Unlike say Calimshan, which just grinds the lower classes down, or Unther that did much the same... Thay was a beautiful country, with abundant wealth and food for its citizens IN GENERAL. Most Thayan slaves were likely the cast off criminals taken from other countries. So, most citizens aren't oppressed by the ruling class. Basically, one can see why some people living in Thay could actually not see the evil in their country. They may make hard choices "but its for the good of the many". One can also see why they believe their race to be preeminent, because they aren't so advantaged that they believe they're entitled to their positions (Mulan people still must strive to advance within their government, and royalty only extends to one's children and not the grandchildren... so each generation must earn the right to be noble). Now, were all Thayan campaigns portrayed this way? No.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

I can absolutely concur with the outlook that people of Thay may not see themselves as evil. It's all about what they've been acculturated too, in terms or values, ethics, and morals. Clearly Thay is a consequentialist country focusing on what delivers the best (Utilitarian specifically) to the masses. That's why the silliness of how alignment is dealt with in D&D in general is so childish. It reduces the very nature of people, why they make their decisions for a job, to take a life, to be kind, or mean, to plot map.

The Realms are a lot richer, because they are grayer, with all of the values based issues. People love to have it easy and have clear cut choices, etc., but we all know, that's not how it works.

The best characters deal with those moral and ethical quandaries all the time.

Best regards,

---