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Originally posted by Wrigley

If I am correct Szass Tam rules Thay in that time and his quarrel was mainly with Rashemen so it make sense to focus on that instead of having all your surrounding nations hate you.
I am not strong in 4e/5e lore so I might be wrong...

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Aglarond may not have been the aggressor but they were also not entirely reluctant participants. The two nations share a long history of mutual antagonism.

I'm guessing that "backed away from hostilities" simply means that Aglarond hasn't (yet) chosen to retaliate against Thay regardless of Thay's apparent weakness.
And I'm guessing that there's less impetus for war (along with less firepower and real chance of victory) without that belligerent and hateful Simbul creature always looking for ways to hurt the reviled Red Wizards.

But what is the source of your quoted text? The surrounding context might provide more explanation.

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Originally posted by Seravin

For years the Simbul was single-handedly holding back Thay from Aglarond; and yet after the Smellplague when the idiots in charge took out all the Chosen, Thay doesn't take over or even try to take over Aglarond? It makes no sense, just another plot hole to add to the pile (of crap).

Sorry if anyone is offended, obviously just my opinion. But there are many sources that say the Simbul is the only thing that kept Thay from taking over the area.

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Originally posted by Seravin

I suppose you can hand wave it wasn't a priority, given all the events, but they seemed to write Thay and Szass pretty aggressive in other areas of the Realms after the Smellplague settled. Hard to believe Thay's immediate neighbors and worst enemies for decades would be just left alone to live peacefully for 100 years... To me, it's a plot hole they didn't try to take advantage of the Simbul being gone and wipe out Aglarond or take it over after all that occurred. In 100 years.

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Originally posted by Seravin

I suppose you can hand wave it wasn't a priority, given all the events, but they seemed to write Thay and Szass pretty aggressive in other areas of the Realms after the Smellplague settled. Hard to believe Thay's immediate neighbors and worst enemies for decades would be just left alone to live peacefully for 100 years... To me, it's a plot hole they didn't try to take advantage of the Simbul being gone and wipe out Aglarond or take it over after all that occurred. In 100 years.

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Originally posted by keftiu
They weren’t peacefully left alone, though? Thay and Aglarond are actively at war in 4e - Thay has captured an Aglarondan city, and recruits constantly sally forth from Citadel Dantalien - so I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Both 4e corebooks paint a grim situation for Aglarond, who is stated to not have the forces to protect every front and is struggling where they do have troops.

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Originally posted by Seravin

For years the Simbul was single-handedly holding back Thay from Aglarond; and yet after the Smellplague when the idiots in charge took out all the Chosen, Thay doesn't take over or even try to take over Aglarond? It makes no sense, just another plot hole to add to the pile (of crap).

Sorry if anyone is offended, obviously just my opinion. But there are many sources that say the Simbul is the only thing that kept Thay from taking over the area.

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• Conventional forces to exhaust their military might
• Used guerilla operations with lesser races, i.e. goblins, etc. to deplete resources through fires, and more
• Use generic forms of disease promulgation with infected animals, clothing and more to cause widespread death and mayhem

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Originally posted by Seravin

I suppose you can hand wave it wasn't a priority, given all the events, but they seemed to write Thay and Szass pretty aggressive in other areas of the Realms after the Smellplague settled. Hard to believe Thay's immediate neighbors and worst enemies for decades would be just left alone to live peacefully for 100 years... To me, it's a plot hole they didn't try to take advantage of the Simbul being gone and wipe out Aglarond or take it over after all that occurred. In 100 years.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Thay-Aglarond conflicts have always been based on assymetrical warfare. Some armies and some major battles. But no grand strategic campaigns involving progressively staged objectives, long-term logistical planning, neitralization/indoctrination/extermination of non-friendly populations, etc.

It's more about small units led by elites (wizards and witches). They may field large numbers of animated, enfhanted, conjured, or illusory troops - but when the spellcaster falls all the subordinate units vanish or desert (or turn against their former commander's allies). They may recruit mercenaries and monsters, but such troops become a liability when their (dead) employer can no longer buy their loyalty.

Szassy didn't sustain much interest in warring vs Aglarond. The Zulkirs-in-exile had more immediate problems. That vicious Symbul creature got ghosted. All the suspicious, plotting, grasping little Reds and Witches concentrated on their own selfish power games but none would dare attempt to engage an entire nation in battle.

So not a lot of war. Not even motivation to cold war. Just simmering opportunism, skirmishes and flares, no commitment from major players and no real firepower for those major players to commit into expensive battles anyhow. Can't get yourself pinned down in a war against the enemy because it puts you in a weak situation which all your other enemies will use to their own advantage.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Thay-Aglarond conflicts have always been based on assymetrical warfare. Some armies and some major battles. But no grand strategic campaigns involving progressively staged objectives, long-term logistical planning, neitralization/indoctrination/extermination of non-friendly populations, etc.

It's more about small units led by elites (wizards and witches). They may field large numbers of animated, enfhanted, conjured, or illusory troops - but when the spellcaster falls all the subordinate units vanish or desert (or turn against their former commander's allies). They may recruit mercenaries and monsters, but such troops become a liability when their (dead) employer can no longer buy their loyalty.

Szassy didn't sustain much interest in warring vs Aglarond. The Zulkirs-in-exile had more immediate problems. That vicious Symbul creature got ghosted. All the suspicious, plotting, grasping little Reds and Witches concentrated on their own selfish power games but none would dare attempt to engage an entire nation in battle.

So not a lot of war. Not even motivation to cold war. Just simmering opportunism, skirmishes and flares, no commitment from major players and no real firepower for those major players to commit into expensive battles anyhow. Can't get yourself pinned down in a war against the enemy because it puts you in a weak situation which all your other enemies will use to their own advantage.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I believe it's a matter of bad writing, or rather a lot of writing from many writers which sunk under its own weight into a collaboration of disjointed themes.

WotC invented a number of large ideas involving Thay (and Thay's prominent characters), then reinvented them several times while smashing 4E in place. End result looks (to me) like a bunch of partially-completed story arcs which never gained momentum and just turned into a messy story/history full of gaping flaws. 5E has attempted to patch manu of the worst flaws, but Thay seems to still be something untouchable, something between taboo and pariah.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I believe it's a matter of bad writing, or rather a lot of writing from many writers which sunk under its own weight into a collaboration of disjointed themes.

WotC invented a number of large ideas involving Thay (and Thay's prominent characters), then reinvented them several times while smashing 4E in place. End result looks (to me) like a bunch of partially-completed story arcs which never gained momentum and just turned into a messy story/history full of gaping flaws. 5E has attempted to patch manu of the worst flaws, but Thay seems to still be something untouchable, something between taboo and pariah.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still would have preferred to see the Thayan Civil War I've discussed before: Szass Tam makes a play for power but it doesn't go as planned, and some Zulkirs side with him, while others -- including the Red Wal-Mart guys -- set up a Thay-In-Exile government in Mulmaster.

Both sides would have been working against the other, and just about every power group in the Realms would have some sort of involvement -- either stirring things up between the two factions, or trying to aid one faction over the other. Some groups would be doing it for their own power, some just to make money, some would work against one or both groups for ideological reasons...

I'm not saying it would be like the clumsy faction stuff that WotC's doing, with groups being involved in issues that have no interest to them and are clearly beyond their sphere of influence... But given the reach of the Red Wizards and their varied interests, a lot of groups would have reason to interfere, to varying degrees.

It would be a huge opportunity for role-playing, because of that... And for me, at least, far more interesting than Generic Necro-Land #17.

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It seems to make sense to you that Thay would be ultra aggressive elsewhere in the Realms, including far away Neverwinter for instance, but ignore the weakest, defenseless, struggling neighbour next to it. Everyone can have their opinion. But could it be be that your opinion has something to do with your signature rather than any objective view?

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Originally posted by Seravin

Someone who labels themselves a "4e fangirl" in their signature, then says anyone who hates 4e changes to Thay must only hate it "because it was 4e" rather than any actual bad writing/plot holes, amuses to me. Reversing that, it wouldn't be nice of us to say you can't see flaws in changes to the setting, no matter how bad they are, simply because you are a "4e fan girl"; right?

As a side note:
I'm a huge fan of the Realms, especially Ed's version and vision. I don't care for forcing popular trends in other fantasy like Warcraft's Lich King onto an area of the Realms that is very unique. The iconic Red Wizard of Thay is an image/idea Ed created as far as I know. Zulkir specialist wizards ruling a D&D maigc school and also ruling an ambitious, morally corrupt trading empire was unique, very detailed in the source books, and fascinating to me! The Simbul, sat in Aglarond, holding back the expansion of Thay's infighting rulers made her character very interesting to me too. The Simbul's Gift is an excellent novel, and the 2nd edition box set on Thay and Aglarond and Rasheman is really good.

What is not interesting to *me*, and nothing to do with edition wars I believe, is a Lich King ruler of an undead nation-state. The popularity of Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft coinciding with the WOTC editorial decision to make Thay an Undead Kingdom with a lich-king ruler may or may not be a giant coincidence, but I'd put my money on it beign a shallow, crass marketing ploy to tap the Warcraft market.

I think were I in charge of WotC at the time, Szass would have been beaten by the Zulkirs, left Thay, and set up his nation in Vassa- which already had a Witch-King and would be perfect for undead nation state territory. Plus with Game of Thrones rising, you could do a whole cold / undead tie in and leave Thay as Ed intended. No one uses Vassa anyway, and it is basically set up for the purpose I envision. But I'm not in charge of anything but my own campaign.

Back on topic - Thay's abandonment of the expansionist against Aglarond for 100 years+ when the Simbul wasn't around to defend it is something that isn't really addressed properly in the lore / novels / source material. There are multiple published sources that state the Simbul is really the only thing holding them back as they don't have the manpower in armies to stop invasion coupled with Thay's magic. That's all people are trying to say here in this thread; it feels very much like a plot hole that Aglarond was left alone for 100 years (Which if so is bad writing by definition, objectively speaking as a plot hole).

I always hated that the Zulkir of Invocation didn't have any contingency spells on him, despite that contingency spells are Invocation/Evocation school of magic, and Aznar was written as the most paranoid man in the Realms in The Simbul's Gift, but apparently completely at ease with going defenseless in the Undead trilogy as extremely poor writing and a plot hole. But feel free to explain that to me too? RLB admitted he never read The Simbul's Gift by the way, which is a pity for those of us who care about consistency in a shared setting.

It seems to make sense to you that Thay would be ultra aggressive elsewhere in the Realms, including far away Neverwinter for instance, but ignore the weakest, defenseless, struggling neighbour next to it. Everyone can have their opinion. But could it be be that your opinion has something to do with your signature rather than any objective view?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still would have preferred to see the Thayan Civil War I've discussed before: Szass Tam makes a play for power but it doesn't go as planned, and some Zulkirs side with him, while others -- including the Red Wal-Mart guys -- set up a Thay-In-Exile government in Mulmaster.

Both sides would have been working against the other, and just about every power group in the Realms would have some sort of involvement -- either stirring things up between the two factions, or trying to aid one faction over the other. Some groups would be doing it for their own power, some just to make money, some would work against one or both groups for ideological reasons...

I'm not saying it would be like the clumsy faction stuff that WotC's doing, with groups being involved in issues that have no interest to them and are clearly beyond their sphere of influence... But given the reach of the Red Wizards and their varied interests, a lot of groups would have reason to interfere, to varying degrees.

It would be a huge opportunity for role-playing, because of that... And for me, at least, far more interesting than Generic Necro-Land #17.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

to restore Thay to its traditional racist, enslaving, weather controlling roots and they try to restore their land.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, those who know me know I've gone a different path, but one that kind of aligns with the goals of 5e. Basically, I feel the Tam taking over Thay and turning it into undead land was no good. I'd prefer that he get ousted and setup an undead place somewhere in the hordelands where he can still be a problem, but not one in Thay. Meanwhile the rebellious faction starts to restore Thay to its traditional racist, enslaving, weather controlling roots and they try to restore their land.

Where I differ is that I have my United Tharchs of Toril idea which has numerous small to mid sized collections of cities (tharchs), individually held cities, and trade enclaves throughout Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, and Katashaka, plus occupying the returned city of Peleverai in the Shaar and a recaptured netherese enclave in orbit. None of these are particularly powerful in and of themselves, and their main power is in their connections and trade. Each "tharch" or trade enclave also varies a lot from their Thayan roots. For instance, the Lopangans are NOT racist any longer and in fact have interbred with the locals of Maztica/Lopango. Other tharchs have embraced technology as well as magic, because while on Abeir magic was less dependable. Some tharchs have become more about information brokering, trade, etc.... Some tharchs have embraced slavery, but ONLY if its non humans. Some tharchs (particularly in Peleverai) find themselves running in multiple directions now that they've returned to Toril and all their neighbors have changed in the blink of an eye (for instance, there is a significant Crintri population that was to recapture Dambrath and a Chessentan population that wants to restore some old Chessentan cities and doesn't appreciate the current Chessentan rulership).

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