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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2019 : 23:15:14
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Does anyone know if there is a canon position on whether giants require proportionally as much food as humans, or if, as partially elemental beings, they are powered partly by magic?
Because, if giants actually have to eat similar food as humans, in proportional quantities, a small tribe of giants will require either extensive agricultural land or absolutely huge hunting grounds.
My players are approaching the home of a frost giant tribe, above the snowline in the Earthspur Mountains, and I want to avoid presenting the illogical scenario of dozens of giants, but no obvious sources of food, but at the same time, it's not like there's a lot of farmland above the snowline and one wonders how much rothé and mountain goat there can be this high up...
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1253 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2019 : 23:50:17
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I hate the whole handwaiving “it’s magic!” reasoning behind every illogical aspect of the game, but really if it’s going to interfere in the game this much, I’d say the handwaiving is warranted. Scientifically speaking a single REAL dragon would decimate a local ecology of it was a real creature and half the gargantuan creatures bone structures couldn’t hold their bodies together. If you don’t say it’s magic, this type of creature simply would not be able to really exist in our gravity and with our physics and biology. Everything is magic.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 02:26:45
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Giant hunters can take down giant prey. Giant strides can cover vast distances.
9' to 12' tall humanoids are not utterly impossible for the land to feed... they're only twice the height (and, at worst, eight times the mass) of normal-sized humanoids. If each giant eats as much as eight humans than a giant population numbering one-eighth a human population should require the same amount of land for foraging/hunting/farming.
I think in practice the giants must exploit (take) human food - and even eat the humans as food - because with one-eighth the headcount they'd lack access to many useful skills. And bigger bodies need more material for bigger homes, bigger furniture, bigger clothes, so they need bigger territories to harvest. It's probably why giants tend to be evil semi-nomadic "monsters".
And the larger giants - measuring 20' to 50' tall, or more - multiply the problem even more. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 02:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Giant hunters can take down giant prey. Giant strides can cover vast distances.
Well, only if there is any giant prey to be found. In reality, there are no animals so large that humans cannot hunt them, so the giants don't really have any kind of advantage there. In fact, humans can probably hunt the same prey more efficiently, because they have to move less mass to do so (because even a highly effective group of human hunters will mass less than one giant).
There's also the problem of what prey animals eat if the giants are confined to cold areas above the snowline, like my hypothetical frost giants. It's not like there aren't humans, orcs and others competing with the orcs for any animals that graze below the snowline.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
9' to 12' tall humanoids are not utterly impossible for the land to feed... they're only twice the height (and, at worst, eight times the mass) of normal-sized humanoids. If each giant eats as much as eight humans than a giant population numbering one-eighth a human population should require the same amount of land for foraging/hunting/farming.
I think in practice the giants must exploit (take) human food - and even eat the humans as food - because with one-eighth the headcount they'd lack access to many useful skills. And bigger bodies need more material for bigger homes, bigger furniture, bigger clothes, so they need bigger territories to harvest. It's probably why giants tend to be evil semi-nomadic "monsters".
And the larger giants - measuring 20' to 50' tall, or more - multiply the problem even more.
Frost giants are about 20' tall. The average human height is 5'6" or so, which makes frost giants almost four times taller than humans. Their weight is variable by source, but usually over a ton, sometimes about a ton and a half. Of course, unless frost giants are meant to be significantly less dense than human flesh*, the listed D&D weights are nonsensical and they should really weigh 3-5 tons.
Any group of frost giants much over a family will quickly reach food requirements for a human town if they eat food in proportion to their size.
*Which... I'm not sure how I feel about. It feels rather silly to imagine giants that not only float, but would have to carry two tons of weights just to be able to sink into water. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Oct 2019 03:01:07 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 02:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I hate the whole handwaiving “it’s magic!” reasoning behind every illogical aspect of the game, but really if it’s going to interfere in the game this much, I’d say the handwaiving is warranted. Scientifically speaking a single REAL dragon would decimate a local ecology of it was a real creature and half the gargantuan creatures bone structures couldn’t hold their bodies together. If you don’t say it’s magic, this type of creature simply would not be able to really exist in our gravity and with our physics and biology. Everything is magic.
Yeah, obviously creatures like giants and dragons are partially composed of magic, merely in order to beat the square-cube law.
That being said, I don't know if this means that giants need less calories than their size would indicate or not. I mean, I know that dragons can canonically derive nourishment from a wide variety of substances, not all of which are digestible by biological creatures (minerals, etc.), but I don't recall ever seeing canon on the subject for giants.
If I determine that giants eat proportionally to their size, I'll simply have to include vast food sources that other creatures either cannot make use of or have been kept from using (likely by the giants). In that case, the PCs and their retinues could perhaps benefit from these food sources.
If I determine that giants that outweigh humans ten or twenty times over nevertheless only eat only five times as much, that would mean that the giant settlement requires much less food than it should. This would then be an interesting detail about giants for the dwarven guide to share with the PCs. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 04:36:30
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from the 3.5 monster manual on frost giants
An adult male is about 15 feet tall and weighs about 2,800 pounds.
They basically came up with the weight by saying the average human male is 6 foot 175 lbs, and then extrapolating that multiplying by by 2.5 to the third power (or 15.625). So, I'd say the giants need to be less than 1/16th the size of a surrounding population if they were human. If a human village could consist of say 400 individuals, then you could still have 400 giants operating in the area. However, I'd also put forth that giants can probably eat things humans can't due to sheer strength of their teeth, etc... So, for instance picking up a relatively small tree and chewing off its leaves might be the equivalent of "eating a salad or having broccoli". They might be able to also flip said tree over and get a decent meal from its roots. In the case of giants living in barren areas full of nothing but ice and snow, they might find ice fishing much easier than a human would (said human possibly freezing to death while a frost giant might enjoy busting through a frozen lake to swim and literally catch fish, seals, killer whales, sharks, etc...). Then of course, they may also eat the surrounding intelligent populations as well.
Man, I can't believe both conversations I've just had in 2 threads focused on monsters eating humans or other intelligent life. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 12:11:27
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I'm trying to translate some basics from something I know, as an example: the Scandinavian Sami.
An older age (premodern) Sami needed in 100 caribou / Reindeer per herder, if they go over 200 per person actively herding (anyone able to work, age 10 - 80 really). This if they spent considerable time making boots/hats or other atractive craftworks, to sell. Under 20 animals per Sami they starve, preferably having 200+ and some assistance of non-herders in specific times of year.
In D&D:
- Rothe weight 2x at least an Caribou. So, a HUMAN needs 10 to not starve, 50 - 100 per person to do ok. A giant needs (by 7x weight), ca. 140 to not starve, 1400 - 2800 per giant to do ok. Per giant. If they do trade, as mine or sell crafts by the side. This can be anything, really. Adamantite ore, collecting Green Starmetal, hunting narwhales or mammoths for Ivory to sell, etc. an tribe of 30 giants would need 84 thousand rothe. If they live of doing crafts /mining / hunting on the side.
This, is if you do it realistically. Tip: Mammoth herding as Skyrim.   |
Edited by - Starshade on 24 Oct 2019 12:11:53 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 12:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
I'm trying to translate some basics from something I know, as an example: the Scandinavian Sami.
An older age (premodern) Sami needed in 100 caribou / Reindeer per herder, if they go over 200 per person actively herding (anyone able to work, age 10 - 80 really). This if they spent considerable time making boots/hats or other atractive craftworks, to sell. Under 20 animals per Sami they starve, preferably having 200+ and some assistance of non-herders in specific times of year.
In D&D:
- Rothe weight 2x at least an Caribou. So, a HUMAN needs 10 to not starve, 50 - 100 per person to do ok. A giant needs (by 7x weight), ca. 140 to not starve, 1400 - 2800 per giant to do ok. Per giant. If they do trade, as mine or sell crafts by the side. This can be anything, really. Adamantite ore, collecting Green Starmetal, hunting narwhales or mammoths for Ivory to sell, etc. an tribe of 30 giants would need 84 thousand rothe. If they live of doing crafts /mining / hunting on the side.
Cool, thanks, that's awesome!
The frost giants do not trade with humans or dwarves, as both races regard them as mortal enemies / are terrified of them and avoid their part of the mountain range. That's not really a big sacrifice, however, from a food gathering perspective, as it's not like the area above the snowline yields much of anything (at least not on Earth).
The foundation of the frost giant economy is raiding, but given that they can't really use human-sized tools or arms, I'm guessing that they mostly take livestock and slaves.
I suppose that the giants could theoretically trade with orcs and goblinkin, but it seems more likely that they raid them as well, given how fond frost giants are of raiding.
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
This, is if you do it realistically. Tip: Mammoth herding as Skyrim.
I'm 100% on board with mammoth herding, if it could be done plausibly, but wooly mammoths lived on tundras, not high mountains.
I suppose that there could be mountain valleys with a tundra climate.
How plausible do people feel it would be to have mammoths living near the Glacier of the White Worm, in the Earthspur Mountains? |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 13:05:07
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While not dungeons and dragons, I always loved the idea that giant's have massive flocks of sheep/goats that are herded by the smaller folk that are slaves/servants.
Rothe is a great choice as well. It's why they replaced cattle for my minotaur settlement as they are durable as all heck. |
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Edited by - shades of eternity on 24 Oct 2019 13:06:22 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 13:15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
While not dungeons and dragons, I always loved the idea that giant's have massive flocks of sheep/goats that are herded by the smaller folk that are slaves/servants.
Rothe is a great choice as well. It's why they replaced cattle for my minotaur settlement as they are durable as all heck.
These frost giants will have flocks of rothé tended by ogre overseers and smaller slaves. I'm merely wondering how numerous those herds will be; quite numerous or absolutely covering the horizon? |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 14:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Does anyone know if there is a canon position on whether giants require proportionally as much food as humans, or if, as partially elemental beings, they are powered partly by magic?
Because, if giants actually have to eat similar food as humans, in proportional quantities, a small tribe of giants will require either extensive agricultural land or absolutely huge hunting grounds.
My players are approaching the home of a frost giant tribe, above the snowline in the Earthspur Mountains, and I want to avoid presenting the illogical scenario of dozens of giants, but no obvious sources of food, but at the same time, it's not like there's a lot of farmland above the snowline and one wonders how much rothé and mountain goat there can be this high up...
Official version of how much food compared to human giant needs is in the book Giantcraft (p.16) as follows:
Giant-kin (all): x2
Ettin: ×4 (each head requires ×2)
Hill giants: ×10
Stone giants: ×9
Frost giants: ×11
Fire giants: ×9
Cloud giants: ×16
Storm giants: ×18
Titans: ×21
As this would not be logical per arguments already stated I assume they eat much less to their mass than that. I already had such situation in the game and a group of 10 giants ate a soup from a pot that was brought by one giant woman. Those were stone giants and pot was a size of a human high. Each got a bowl size of a large human pot (much like a cup for them) and inside was roughly chopped vegetables and meat from some large birds. Characters got one together and much was left for later. So I would say an average stone giant eats about 4x more than human. That still limits their options for large settlements but also enables them to function in environments like mountains and such. As my stone giants are huge and frost giants are large, they would eat even closer amount to humans, lets say 2x that much. On the other hand cloud and storm giants are gargantuan and eat 6-8x that is why it is rare to find more than a family of them in one place...
Larger giant communities either have found a large enough supply of food to keep them in place or they have to hunt in large area. What is easily forgotten is that even humans settled in one place only after they invented agriculture so lets say giants have also means to grow some form of large vegetables that helps to support them. Beside that they can keep a herd of large animals for meat.
So in my opinion - large communities only in fertile areas (almost nonexistent now), small communities in mountains with valleys that can support them and most common - hunting parties with few members that make most of encounters with this race.
I do not see giants as a band of neanderthals but as a sophisticated culture that is reclusive and withdrawn from human civilization. They fight only if they must to protect what is theirs. Lesser giants are more prone to aggression fighting for what they think of as theirs (all lands around) but are slowly loosing to more numerous humans. This ancient civilization fell mainly due to separation of dwarven kin who were crucial for their size (mining, precise work) but felt as a second class citizens... now giants are truly oversized for this world and most just wants others to leave them alone. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 15:46:02
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Huh, ok, so I missed this information in Giantcraft.
Of course, later editions have zig-zagged the size and weight of various giant types, but in Giantcraft, at least, frost giants are meant to eat roughly proportional to their size.
They average x11 to x15 human weight in Giantcraft and are noted as requiring x11 the food. Fire giants, on the other hand, are three times frost giant weight and require less food, so are obviously subsisting on magical energy to a greater degree. Well, fire is more energetic than cold, so I'm okay with that.
Of course, I have problems with some of the height and weight listed in Giantcraft. The average frost giant male, by the table there, would stand 22'4" tall and weigh 2510 lbs., which either means a freakishly slender giant (not consistent with any picture or description of frost giants) or a density of frost giant flesh that is roughly a third of that of human flesh.
Neither solution much pleases me. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Oct 2019 15:46:59 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 17:57:25
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Right, so if we go by a throwaway line in Giantcraft where a single frost giant eats almost half a cow every day, I can guesstimate what a tribe of thirty giants needs on a yearly basis.
Unfortunately, it's about 5,500 cattle per year or the equivalent. Certainly, the giants will eat gruel, porridge, bread and other cereal-based foodstuffs, given that they require cereals for their ale and beer. So, their slaves will grow as much hops and barley as they can, but given the fact that the frost giants live in a cold region above the snowline, that can't be very much.
Still, I'll need one fertile mountain valley fairly accessible to the giants, albeit too warm during spring and summer for the frost giants to venture there. This agricultural valley will be a the former property of a dwarven hold, since destroyed by the giants. There, human and dwarven slaves work under ogre overseers to grow carrots, turnips, parsnips, potatoes, radishes and beets, as well as the all-important cereals for the ale and beer.
I suspect that this valley will have marvelous waterfalls, terraced growing areas and a general air of ancient terraforming, having been more or less constructed by the dwarves of Sarphil some five millennia ago, at least according to most human bards. The giants, of course, will maintain that the valley was hewed out of the mountains by their own forefathers, even further in the past.
The hills and valleys leading up to the icy mountain gorge of the frost giants will have vast herds of rothé and sheep, accompanied by ogre shepherds and drovers. In these days of early summer, the heat of lower altitudes is too much for the frost giants themselves, so the most senior personage expected will be a verbeeg overseer, Bratoslav the Wretched, Overseer of the Southern Slopes.
The southern way into the Ice Gorge will have a guard post where Bratoslav spends most of his time and a few trusted ogre warriors are stationed. There will also be a small pack of winter wolves at the guard post, but most of the winter wolves belong to the more important frost giants of the tribe.
In decades past, frost giant warriors were stationed at the more probable entrances to their settlement, but Jarl Rurik is not his father and in these decadent times, the rich and fat giants of the tribe are more likely to spend their time feasting in their mead halls than standing guard.
To the north and west of the Ice Gorge, I'll have the gorge widen into a cold high plateau, bounded by peaks impassable to most humans, where more ogres herd krotters and mammoths. In this colder region, which is still slightly below the snowline, the frost giants themselves can enforce discipline among their servants and slaves and hunting parties frequently pass through en route to hunting wild rothé, mammoth, mountain goats and more exotic prey (found nearer the glacier).
The Ice Gorge, itself, shall be named for the glittering icy spires of the mountains that surround it, and these higher elevations shall be home to the mead halls of the frost giants. Only at the northernmost point of the Ice Gorge shall a tip of the glacier, looking like a frozen river, extend into it, with most of the southern part of the 'gorge' forming a fairly decent grazing land for rothé. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Oct 2019 21:52:03 |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 18:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
While not dungeons and dragons, I always loved the idea that giant's have massive flocks of sheep/goats that are herded by the smaller folk that are slaves/servants.
Rothe is a great choice as well. It's why they replaced cattle for my minotaur settlement as they are durable as all heck.
These frost giants will have flocks of rothé tended by ogre overseers and smaller slaves. I'm merely wondering how numerous those herds will be; quite numerous or absolutely covering the horizon?
Well, sheep and goats are relatively hardy so they should be able to survive in fairly harsh environments. Goats, in particular, are very good at climbing.
Giant's eat a lot, so I expect huge stockades of sheep/goats with sheepdogs or their equivalent.
goats, in particular, I believe pulled Thor's chariot in Norse mythology.
Not only do they present a low cr encounter that starts the PCs looking for giants without being there, but you can also have a ton of fun having to deal with the sheep/goats afterward as they are most likely worth money.
and if you happen to crib the journey back with an episode from Shaun the Sheep, so much the better. :D |
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Edited by - shades of eternity on 24 Oct 2019 18:45:08 |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 19:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Right, so if we go by a throwaway line in Giantcraft where a single frost giant eats almost half a cow every day, I can guesstimate what a tribe of thirty giants needs on a yearly basis.
Unfortunately, it's about 5,500 cattle per year or the equivalent. Certainly, the giants will eat gruel, porridge, bread and other cereal-based foodstuffs, given that they require cereals for their ale and beer. So, their slaves will grow as much hops and barley as they can, but given the fact that the frost giants live in a cold region above the snowline, that can't be very much.
Still, I'll need one fertile mountain valley fairly accessible to the giants, albeit too warm during spring and summer for the frost giants to venture there. This agricultural valley will be a the former property of a dwarven hold, since destroyed by the giants. There, human and dwarven slaves work under ogre overseers to grow carrots, turnips, parsnips, potatoes, radishes and beets, as well as the all-important cereals for the ale and beer.
I suspect that this valley will have marvelous waterfalls, terraced growing areas and a general air of ancient terraforming, having been more or less constructed by the dwarves of Sarphil some five millennia ago, at least according to most human bards. The giants, of course, will maintain that the valley was hewed out of the mountains by their own forefathers, even further in the past.
The hills and valleys leading up to the icy mountain gorge of the frost giants will have vast herds of rothé and sheep, accompanied by ogre shepherds and drovers. In these days of early summer, the heat of lower altitudes is too much for the frost giants themselves, so the most senior personage expected will be a verbeeg overseer, Bratoslav the Wretched, Overseer of the Southern Slopes.
The southern way into the Ice Gorge will have a guard post where Bratoslav spends most of his time and a few trusted ogre warriors are stationed. There will also be a small pack of winter wolves at the guard post, but most of the winter wolves belong to the more important frost giants of the tribe.
In decades past, frost giant warriors were stationed at the more probable entrances to their settlement, but Jarl Rurik is not his father and in these decadent times, the rich and fat giants of the tribe are more likely to spend their time feasting in their mead halls than standing guard.
To the north and east of the Ice Gorge, I'll have a cold high plain after a series of peaks, where more ogres herd krotters and mammoths. In this colder region, the frost giants themselves can enforce discipline among their servants and slaves and hunting parties frequently pass through en route to hunting wild rothé, mammoth, mountain goats and more exotic prey (found nearer the glacier).
At the risk of double posting, nailed it :) |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
Edited by - shades of eternity on 24 Oct 2019 19:30:31 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 22:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
At the risk of double posting, nailed it :)
After going over some very old maps of the area, I decided that the mammoth plateau was better suited for the northwest.
The frost giants will have a herd of about twenty mammoths and well over a thousand krotters roaming around the 100 square miles of the plateau, with thousands more krotters occupying several high valleys within fifty miles or so. Of course, the fact that krotters can eat almost anything and seem incredibly (almost supernaturally) apt to survive arctic climates with limited resources helps quite a lot. They'll mostly eat fungi and moss other creatures wouldn't touch and couldn't survive on.
The giants' rothé herd will also number in the thousands, with herdsmen ranging up to forty miles from the homestead to the lower slopes and foothills of the south, where the weather is quite nice in the springtime and summer.
The giants greatly prefer rothé to krotters (who wouldn't?), but are unable to keep enough of the more desirable cattle to be able to dispense entirely with krotters. Sheep and goat are considered less tasty than rothé, but a useful supplement, not to mention a fine source of wool, butter and cheese.
In their idyllic thousand acres of fertile mountain valley, the giants can even keep pigs (a great delicacy), as well as deriving most of their crops and the source for their ale and beer. Jarlhild Yevgenia, the mother of the current Jarl, also knows how to distill strong liquor from beets, wheat and potatoes (of which potatoes are most plentiful and efficient to distill for the giants).
The frost giants enjoy mead most of all food and drink, but never have enough honey for sufficient supply. Honey and fuel are their most pressing trade needs and their desire/need for both is great enough for them to plan raids entirely based on the availability of these necessities. As there are no easy sources of timber or firefood, the frost giants mostly burn dung or coal (the latter of which the dwarves who once lived there used for their forges). |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 23:29:47
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Ha
What you should do is have the frost giants end up making the mother of all artificial beehives just so they can have enough honey for mead.
unfortunately, the bees they prefer are dire ones.
edit: sorry, but what's a krotter again? |
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Edited by - shades of eternity on 24 Oct 2019 23:31:52 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 23:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Ha
What you should do is have the frost giants end up making the mother of all artificial beehives just so they can have enough honey for mead.
unfortunately, the bees they prefer are dire ones.
edit: sorry, but what's a krotter again?
Krotter.
I suppose I could have bees in the terraformed valley, sure. And/or have them living in the former dwarven hold.
How much cold can bees tolerate? |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 23:54:55
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aha Now I know. :)
well I know they are in the area (edmonton, alberta canada)
As for cold and bees.
https://www.al.com/wire/2014/02/bees_suffer_in_the_cold_but_pr.html
They hunker down so it's probably somewhere that is delegated for beekeeping.
Probably a valley of some sort.
They probably use minions/slaves that use fire to wake them up and as a side effect pollunate the area.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 00:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
aha Now I know. :)
well I know they are in the area (edmonton, alberta canada)
As for cold and bees.
https://www.al.com/wire/2014/02/bees_suffer_in_the_cold_but_pr.html
They hunker down so it's probably somewhere that is delegated for beekeeping.
Probably a valley of some sort.
They probably use minions/slaves that use fire to wake them up and as a side effect pollunate the area.
I'm extremely enthused about the frost giants being beekeepers, but I have a plausibility problem with giant bees and their honey production, namely, what kind of flowers are they pollinating?
If they're 5' long, how do they pollinate normal flowers?
And if they can't, where are they getting nectar to make honey?
I mean, I buy giant bees in a tropical fantasy-scape full of giant flowers, but I'm struggling to imagine them in an ecology that is less fantastical. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 00:38:04
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Dandelions
they are durable as heck, can grow in very cold environments, grow in massive clusters and a lot of the pollinization is doing drivebys of such clusters causing the pollenation.
seriously, they are thee plant if you want a flower to grow just about anywhere.
here's a historical account on them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyePMeGE3CI
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 01:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Dandelions
they are durable as heck, can grow in very cold environments, grow in massive clusters and a lot of the pollinization is doing drivebys of such clusters causing the pollenation.
seriously, they are thee plant if you want a flower to grow just about anywhere.
here's a historical account on them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyePMeGE3CI
Oh, I'm not worried about flowers growing in the alpine zone. In fact, the heartsease (Viola tricolor) grows in the real-world Alps and are actually famously associated with bees (specifically bumblebees, which tolerate cold much better than other bees) by Darwin.
No, the problem I see is where do giant bees obtain enough nectar to make quantities of honey in proportion to their size? Wouldn't they need giant flowers, because it would take infinity (and be very inefficient) for huge bees to collect nectar from millions (if not billions) of small flowers? |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 01:51:13
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The answer is to introduce another critter.
Take a fuzzy caterpillar
they eat the flowers and leave these nectar nodules that are big enough for giant bees to follow up and eat.
edit: I'm thinking something like a tent caterpillar. not gargantuan, but they invade a location in mass and leave them in the aftermath.
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Edited by - shades of eternity on 25 Oct 2019 01:54:43 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 04:05:17
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https://www.buzzfeed.com/norbertobriceno/incredible-stories-that-prove-andre-the-giant-was-larger
Andre the Giant could (it is written) consume 12 steaks and 15 lobsters in one sitting. Or 16 bottles of wine. He needed over 125-150 beers to get drunk, he needed to smash down two bottles of vodka just to "get a buzz".
This seems like an extremely large (and muscular, athletic) human - roughly 5 times average human body weight - consuming more than 10-20 times an average human's meal and drink. (I think it's safe to assume Andre typically ate/drank somewhat less than he did during these outrageously memorable displays.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Oct 2019 04:13:05 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 04:10:17
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| -If you enlarge something and then kill it, does it remain enlarged? Not sure how realistic it would be for your Frost Giants to be enlarging cattle, rothe, whatever to satisfy their bigger hungers, but it could be a plausible scenario with the right actors. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 04:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
https://www.buzzfeed.com/norbertobriceno/incredible-stories-that-prove-andre-the-giant-was-larger
Andre the Giant could (it is written) consume 12 steaks and 15 lobsters in one sitting. Or 16 bottles of wine. He needed over 125-150 beers to get drunk, he needed to smash down two bottles of vodka just to "get a buzz".
This seems like an extremely large (and muscular, athletic) human - roughly 5 times average human body weight - consuming more than 10-20 times an average human's meal and drink. (I think it's safe to assume Andre typically ate/drank somewhat less than he did during these outrageously memorable displays.)
At 520 lbs., Andre the Giant was only about x3.5 the weight of an average human.
Actually,Andre's weight is a good example of how ridiculous published D&D weights could be, with 9' ogres listed at 350 lbs. in some sources and 20'+ giants weighing barely more than a ton. That's somewhere between a walking skeleton and Paris Hilton in build, unless we're talking hollow giants.
Frost giants with the average height listed in Giantcraft would weigh over seven tons if they were built like Andre (which most descriptions and pictures suggest). Hell, my stepfather is a fairly regular guy, big but not record-setting in any way (6'6", 300 lbs.), and if you scaled him up to twice his height, he'd weigh as much as Giantcraft has frost giants weigh despite only reaching their waists.
I can basically choose to follow the heights or the weights listed in Giantcraft, there's no way to retain both without making the result impossible to take seriously.
So, should I reduce frost giant heights to more plausible levels for them weighing 1-1.5 tons or should I retain the listed heights and multiply weights?
As I use GURPS rules for my games, there is a huge mechanical difference, as I'll figure the stats for the giants from their mass. A 14,000 lbs. frost giant would be significantly more frightening than a 2,400 lbs. one. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 04:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-If you enlarge something and then kill it, does it remain enlarged? Not sure how realistic it would be for your Frost Giants to be enlarging cattle, rothe, whatever to satisfy their bigger hungers, but it could be a plausible scenario with the right actors.
Unless the Enlarge effect is permanent, you wouldn't end up with more biomass at the end of the day. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 10:12:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
At 520 lbs., Andre the Giant was only about x3.5 the weight of an average human.
Actually,Andre's weight is a good example of how ridiculous published D&D weights could be, with 9' ogres listed at 350 lbs. in some sources and 20'+ giants weighing barely more than a ton. That's somewhere between a walking skeleton and Paris Hilton in build, unless we're talking hollow giants.
Frost giants with the average height listed in Giantcraft would weigh over seven tons if they were built like Andre (which most descriptions and pictures suggest). Hell, my stepfather is a fairly regular guy, big but not record-setting in any way (6'6", 300 lbs.), and if you scaled him up to twice his height, he'd weigh as much as Giantcraft has frost giants weigh despite only reaching their waists.
I can basically choose to follow the heights or the weights listed in Giantcraft, there's no way to retain both without making the result impossible to take seriously.
So, should I reduce frost giant heights to more plausible levels for them weighing 1-1.5 tons or should I retain the listed heights and multiply weights?
As I use GURPS rules for my games, there is a huge mechanical difference, as I'll figure the stats for the giants from their mass. A 14,000 lbs. frost giant would be significantly more frightening than a 2,400 lbs. one.
As it seems you need to differ from the rules why do you want to keep the consumption level?
As for the weight I would look more into the nature for large size creatures like grizzly bears, elephants, gorillas, ...
As for the bees... that is where you get when you supersize everything. Such problems will continue to rise if you keep looking that is why I went for simple solution of less consumption.
If you get a thousand heads herd of sheeps/goats you cannot stay at the same location and have to move them around a lot. I cannot believe that nobody would notice that. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 13:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As it seems you need to differ from the rules why do you want to keep the consumption level?
As far as I can tell, there isn't any one set of rules. The Realms have existed through multiple editions of D&D (as well as being created before that game existed) and different editions have had different rules for giants. And, unhappily, different facts about them as well, i.e. giant size and weight has fluctuated by edition.
I'm looking for Realmslore, because I play games in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, but because I don't use any edition of D&D, I'm indifferent to rules, as such. The individual editions and their rules are just the game engine used to render the setting and I'm interested in Realmslore, i.e. information about the setting.
That being said, a statement in a sourcebook that frost giants range from x to y in height and have an average weight of z is not simply 'the rules'. It's also a statement of fact about measurable things within the setting and thus Realmslore. Hence, I'd like to be able to stick to it, in my campaign, despite not using (A)D&D rules.
Unfortunately, that's impossible, for the reasons given above. Unless we are willing to postulate hollow giants or giants made out of foam, the listed heights and weights don't work together. That has nothing to do with rules and everything to do with either the author or editor of the sourcebook not even doing back of the envelope checks to ensure that they weren't fundamentally misunderstanding scale.
I'm not wedded to giants either requiring proportional calories for their size or to them subsisting partially on their innate magic (and link to the elemental planes). I just wanted to know if there was Realmslore that touched on the subject before making a decision for my campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As for the weight I would look more into the nature for large size creatures like grizzly bears, elephants, gorillas, ...
Why?
Those aren't human-shaped and, moreover, they don't work like giants. Giants aren't much less strong for their weight than humans, as huge creatures are in reality. Giants are clearly magical beings, because they have a shape that would not work with normal physics and they can wield weapons that they could absolutely not use with normal physics.*
*Mass goes up with the cube of height, but in real physics, the strength and lifting capability of a huge being doesn't scale that way. The larger something is in real life, the less strong it is for its size. Elephants are far stronger than ants, but proportionally much weaker. A giant-sized sword or axe would be far too heavy for a giant without magical muscles and it would also have horrible balance if shaped as a scaled up replica of a human weapon (and probably couldn't be made out of the same materials as human-scale weapons).
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As for the bees... that is where you get when you supersize everything. Such problems will continue to rise if you keep looking that is why I went for simple solution of less consumption.
It is, indeed, turtles all the way down.
That being said, it's not impossible for a fantastic ecology to make sense, if we assume that magic is providing means to solve certain problems that can't be solved by normal physics. Magic, after all, can overrule physics when they are being a buzzkill.*
However, in order for that to be narratively satisfying and provide a functional setting to play in, we have to think about the implications.
So, if I want my giants to have giant bees for their giant supply of honey for giant casks of mead, I have to provide them with giant flowers... or some replacement source of nectar.
*Thank you, thank you, here all week. Try the veal.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
If you get a thousand heads herd of sheeps/goats you cannot stay at the same location and have to move them around a lot. I cannot believe that nobody would notice that.
The humans, orcs and dwarves who live anywhere near the Ice Gorge certainly know about the frost giant tribe there and, in fact, it is one of the reasons most of them give the place a wide berth.
As it happens, the PCs chose this circuitous, arduous and hazardous route to their ultimate destination because they are trying to avoid a rampaging hobgoblin 'horde'* and found out that the hobgoblins tried to cross the giants' lands, but suffered a bloody repulse and now avoid them, at least for the moment.
If Kurth weren't besieged by thousands of goblinoids and orcs, the PCs and their retinues would simply have followed the North Road from King's Reach. Dealing with outriders, foragers, scouts and splinter faction warbands sounded absolutely exhausting and entirely too unpredictable, whereas Tungo mac Tholdorn, their dwarven guide, insists he can lead them past the giants in the gorge by secret dwarfways underground.
Unless, of course, that the PCs elect to go giantslaying for fun and profit and/or something goes wrong.
*Well, more like an organized army of conquest, moreover mostly consisting of slave troops of goblins and an increasing number of orcs incorporated into the victorious army, but the settled humans of the area persist in referring to any large humanoid grouping as a 'horde'. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 23:18:58
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You can always calculate/estimate more "realistic" body weights (and food consumption) for giant-sized humanoids.
But the reality is that giants don't exist, evidently because they're "impossible".
While fantasy settings implicitly assume "it's magic!" handwavium whenever there's a need to explain "impossible" things.
The Giantcraft splatbook does offer rules for creating new/custom giant races. Interestingly, a race of human-sized "giants" (standing a mere 5'-6' tall) is possible, and these would gain no significant racial template stats/modifiers/abilities to differentiate them from humans. It's explained that "giants" (jotun) are an unhuman species - they are proportioned differently, with many gross and subtle differences in biology and anatomy and psychology - they're as unlike humans as demihumans or goblinoids. They seem to have a stronger connection to their mythological origins, and since this invariably involves some form of divine fiat it can be argued that "it's magic!" validates their quirky characteristics better than any other explanation. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2019 : 14:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Well, sheep and goats are relatively hardy so they should be able to survive in fairly harsh environments. Goats, in particular, are very good at climbing.
Giant's eat a lot, so I expect huge stockades of sheep/goats with sheepdogs or their equivalent.
goats, in particular, I believe pulled Thor's chariot in Norse mythology.
Not only do they present a low cr encounter that starts the PCs looking for giants without being there, but you can also have a ton of fun having to deal with the sheep/goats afterward as they are most likely worth money.
and if you happen to crib the journey back with an episode from Shaun the Sheep, so much the better. :D
While the PCs will absolutely steal sheep or rothé from giants if it means tasty fresh meat on the road, note that a few thousand gold pieces are not worth any trouble to them. They are looking for the Hollow Mountain, on a quest for Iyrarauroth's hoard, the treasures of Roldilar and the orc kingdom of Vastar. They're after millions, not thousands.
The PCs already own/control a merchant house with dozens of trading ships, a mercenary company making vast sums in Unther, tracts of lands in Unther and the Vast, an island in the Inner Sea and investment stakes in a variety of concerns, ranging from logging in the Vilhon Reach to trade with undersea creatures in Myth Nantar. The campaign is about fifteen years old and while GURPS rules don't use levels, in D&D terms they'd probably come to 17th+ level.
So, I doubt they'll bother to try to transport herds of sheep or cattle to a human settlement a tenday away, just because they are worth tens of thousands of gold pieces. Of course, if they secure possession of the Hollow Mountain, they might eventually send hirelings to do so, just as they might send hirelings to carry out from the dragon's hoard any valuables not valuable enough for their weight to rate space in the PCs' Bag of Holding, Folding Boat and other luggage.
That being said, encountering giant-ish shepherds sounds fun. The frost giants keep winter wolves like medieval nobles might keep packs of pampered hunting hounds, and I'm pretty sure winter wolves and sheepdogs would coexist poorly. But because of the frost giant distaste for warm weather, this time of year (it's late Mirtul, so late spring / early summer) they never actually come down to the lower elevations of the southern slopes where their herds roam. It might therefore be theoretically possible for the ogre shepherds to keep their own working dogs, I guess.
Still, those ogres probably live in prosimity to the giants and their wolves for most of the year, so sheepdogs still feel like a potential problem. Can you effectively shepherd (and drive cattle, for the rothé) without them? |
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Giant Food Requirements
