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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2019 : 14:23:44
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Well dogs are not required to herd, they just make it easier. Best comparison would be cowboys in herding cattle did not use dogs. They did however use mounts to be able to better control the cattle.
With more people the sheep or goats can be watched over by people without dogs. The dogs tend to replace the need for man power. One dog likely better then two man because of speed and better able to be near or in a herd to collect and guide. Man power tend to be more required to be fencing, containing the perimeter or the herd, forming path with some driving.
Depending on nature of cattle also man on foot can herd them.
Trained herding animals just make things easier and free man power up for other things. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2019 : 02:28:12
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Dragon Magazine #254 has different average weights and upkeep numbers for giants, in the article "The Bigger They Are...", with Frost Giants weighing 7700 lbs and requiring 6 times the amount of food. Might be worth looking over for an alternate take.
Jeff
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My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2019 : 02:35:58
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Dragon Magazine #254 has different average weights and upkeep numbers for giants, in the article "The Bigger They Are...", with Frost Giants weighing 7700 lbs and requiring 6 times the amount of food. Might be worth looking over for an alternate take.
Jeff
Thanks. As it happens, I just located this old Dragon Magazine and did just that.
The weights are right, in that the author actually understands scaling and avoided hollow giants or papier-mache ones.
The upkeep figures are weird, in that there is no explanation given, but note that there doesn't seem to be an explicit statement that giants eat much less than their size would suggest, just that their monthly upkeep was a given cost multiplier. This is distinct because upkeep includes more than just food, but also because if giants can subsist of cheaper foodstuffs than humans, then the upkeep multiplier might be less than expected, even if the giants eat huge amounts. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 07:24:50
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I know the physics probably doesn't work, but I like to think Hill Giants are just very large, mundane monster humanoids that follow human-esque digestive needs - but the other giants Stone, Cloud, Storm, Fire and Ice are magical/elemental and like dragons don't really consume food unless they want to.
Hill Giants from memory are usually depicted/written as much stockier and bulky than the other giants who are very lean (and much taller). If I'm right, Hill Giants would need a lot of food to keep them going...
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 09:41:09
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| Frost giant might presumably use "viking" style ships to hunt whales, right? A quick google led me to a wiki article about the Frost Giant ship "Krigvind", requiring a crew of 20 and taking 1000 tons of cargo. If we assume baleen whales of 50 up to 100 tonns is common there is lots of food available. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 09:45:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Frost giant might presumably use "viking" style ships to hunt whales, right? A quick google led me to a wiki article about the Frost Giant ship "Krigvind", requiring a crew of 20 and taking 1000 tons of cargo. If we assume baleen whales of 50 up to 100 tonns is common there is lots of food available.
If they live by an ocean, that would certainly be one option.
My tribe of frost giants live in the Earthspur Mountains, near the Glacier of the White Worm.
No whales for them, but they do hunt the albino remorhazes that give the glacier its name. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 12:39:51
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One thing that might play into things could be that giants just may not be as active overall compared to smaller races. For instance, the smaller races might have to spend time tilling the fields, chopping wood into usable pieces for firewood, turning logs into lumber for making/repairing their houses, etc.... whereas giants may
A) rely on smaller races working for them as slaves to perform these tasks
or
B) Not have to perform said tasks at all or have to spend as much effort to perform said tasks (i.e. they may just use their personal weight to snap small-to-them trees into firewood)
For instance, living in a cold wasteland, humans in similar territory would have to keep a fire running to keep up heat. Frost giants don't have to do that. I imagine that their main uses for fire are for making food, drinks, and possibly medicinal reasons. They aren't particularly known for metal working, so I'd imagine that they do more stone, leather, and wood working and purchasing metal weapons from other giants like fire giants. They may do some work using bone as well. Ironically, when they do need some kind of heat source, they may use extracts from the creatures they hunt (noting that the albino remorhaz's back produces extreme heat) or actually keep such creatures as pets for that purpose. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 20:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I know the physics probably doesn't work, but I like to think Hill Giants are just very large, mundane monster humanoids that follow human-esque digestive needs - but the other giants Stone, Cloud, Storm, Fire and Ice are magical/elemental and like dragons don't really consume food unless they want to.
Hill Giants from memory are usually depicted/written as much stockier and bulky than the other giants who are very lean (and much taller). If I'm right, Hill Giants would need a lot of food to keep them going...
Hill giants aren't any stockier (in pictures) than mountain giants, frost giants or fire giants (the last of whom are by far the stockiest giant race), but it is true that most pictures of hill giants show them as pot-bellied, overweight and generally less athletic than more aristocratic giants.
And there is canon support for your position, in that hill giants are actually canonically noted as particularly voracious eaters who require far more food for their weight than the other giants.
Giantcraft does specify that giants require food and their size means that they require quite a lot. In fact, giant food requirements and the difficulty of satisfying them when humans are competing for the same resources are noted as one of the major reasons large groups of giants are so rare.
But I'd say that it's very logical to assume that only the (comparatively) mundane hill giants actually require the full amount of calories needed for a biological creature their size, with the more magical giant races being partially sustained by their elemental connection.
I will assume, for example, that ordinary frost giants, in the 1300s DR generally around the seventh generation removed from their immortal progenitors, require only half the food that their size implies, although in periods of plenty, they enjoy indulging their gluttony and eating as much as they can. Frost giants closer to their immortal origins and/or particularly connected to their elemental natures tend to require even less food, being more supernatural in nature. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 22:42:46
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| You could also separate giantkin to two categories - true giants are ones with clear elemental essence (fire, storm, cloud and stone). Others are lesser giants with questinable origin and thus more human-like in size and consumption. Hill giants have no clear element in them as do ettins, ogres, verbegs, ... for frost giants you can say they have paraelemental origin so at least their consumption should be lesser for it. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 02:43:44
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| Ogre Magi/Oni are Vaprak's pet project that failed? |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 11:15:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
You could also separate giantkin to two categories - true giants are ones with clear elemental essence (fire, storm, cloud and stone). Others are lesser giants with questinable origin and thus more human-like in size and consumption. Hill giants have no clear element in them as do ettins, ogres, verbegs, ... for frost giants you can say they have paraelemental origin so at least their consumption should be lesser for it.
Of course, while the distinction between 'true' giants that descend from Annam and the giant-kin is most vital to giant culture, I do see giants as existing on a continuum from fairly mundane and terrestial (Vaprak's progeny like ogres, various giant-kin like verbeegs, and even true giants like the ettin and hill giants), to more fey giants/giant-kin (firbolg, fomorians, voadkyn, mountain, etc.) to the strongly elemental or paraelemental giants (stone, frost, fire, cloud, storm). There are also some oddities which appear to draw on other energies than elemental ones.
For my campaign, I'll have a range of supernaturalness existing also within each giant race, with every generation since the sons of Annam being more mortal, smaller, shorter-lived and less magical. So, while giants of the ancient past were absolutely huge, they required proportionally less food (even if they enjoyed eating more than they needed), because they were so nearly divine and lived for thousands of years.
So, yes, the frost giants in my campaign will require less food than their weight implies, but their slaves and servants; ogres, cyclopskin, a couple of ettin, a verbeeg, maybe some hill giants, etc. will need food in full proportion to their size (and/or be less active and energetic). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 16:32:40
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| Just to note, the idea of their being "normal" and "more powerful" occurring versions of the various giant races was seen in 4e (i.e. they had fire giants and fire titans as an example, hill giants/earth titans, etc...). This breaks from the concept that Titans are all one "race", and I will say it is one of many 4e concepts that I'm not against. I find that many of the 4e concepts I find palatable, but it was the implementation of them that didn't necessarily work in their involvement with either sweeping changes to the realms itself OR the base rules. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 19:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note, the idea of their being "normal" and "more powerful" occurring versions of the various giant races was seen in 4e (i.e. they had fire giants and fire titans as an example, hill giants/earth titans, etc...). This breaks from the concept that Titans are all one "race", and I will say it is one of many 4e concepts that I'm not against. I find that many of the 4e concepts I find palatable, but it was the implementation of them that didn't necessarily work in their involvement with either sweeping changes to the realms itself OR the base rules.
2e Giantcraft specifically mentioned that as giant generations were further removed from their divine parentage, their lifespans shortened from the immortal lives of the sons of Amman. It's hardly a revolutionary deduction from that data to assume that if modern giants are less divine and have lifespans more in line with normal mortals, they are also less supernatural.
So I don't really consider this a 4e concept, just logical extrapolation from existing Realmslore. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 22:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note, the idea of their being "normal" and "more powerful" occurring versions of the various giant races was seen in 4e (i.e. they had fire giants and fire titans as an example, hill giants/earth titans, etc...). This breaks from the concept that Titans are all one "race", and I will say it is one of many 4e concepts that I'm not against. I find that many of the 4e concepts I find palatable, but it was the implementation of them that didn't necessarily work in their involvement with either sweeping changes to the realms itself OR the base rules.
2e Giantcraft specifically mentioned that as giant generations were further removed from their divine parentage, their lifespans shortened from the immortal lives of the sons of Amman. It's hardly a revolutionary deduction from that data to assume that if modern giants are less divine and have lifespans more in line with normal mortals, they are also less supernatural.
So I don't really consider this a 4e concept, just logical extrapolation from existing Realmslore.
Yeah, its just 4e was the first to put a non-conceptual status to it and to put stats to the concept. Granted, still not a 4e fan, but I find myself intrigued by how many concepts of theirs were good, but the implementation fell shy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 10:36:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
2e Giantcraft specifically mentioned that as giant generations were further removed from their divine parentage, their lifespans shortened from the immortal lives of the sons of Amman. It's hardly a revolutionary deduction from that data to assume that if modern giants are less divine and have lifespans more in line with normal mortals, they are also less supernatural.
So I don't really consider this a 4e concept, just logical extrapolation from existing Realmslore.
The shortening of age with each generation could possibly explain the removal of giant civilization from Realms. At certain time most of the older giants should die out in a mass scale (multiple generations at once) causing a huge gap in their population within relatively short time. I know there were also wars with Batrachi and dragons but this might have been the finishing blow... |
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Mindseye
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 14:28:18
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Could the Giants eat Tarrasques?
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 15:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mindseye
Could the Giants eat Tarrasques?
Since there is only one, no, they could not eat Tarrasques. If they did manage to defeat THE Tarrasque, of course, I imagine that they could eat it for quite a long time, in light of the regeneration.
I imagine that the suggestion was made in jest, but this is actually something I've contemplated. Not in relation to the tarrasque, specifically, but in regards to how regeneration works in the Realms.
Namely, is regeneration a magical ability to regrow flesh, limbs and other body parts that function as a greatly accelerated version of natural recovery and regrowth or is it a magical ability to conjure into effect new flesh and body parts?
Is it, in other words, a Transmutation effect or a Conjuration one? And, if it is a Conjuration effect, are regenerating creatures creating biomass from nothing or conjuring it from some undisclosed, possibly extraplanar location?
The major implications of this revolve around whether a single troll can produce infinite meat* even while being starved and constantly having pieces cut off it. Or does it need to eat biomass of equivalent mass to the newly regenerated flesh?
I can see why simplistic D&D rules would ignore the latter in monster stats for trolls, because it wouldn't matter in the context of one battle**, but it matters enormously when it comes to worldbuilding.
I personally favor troll regeneration being an efficient way to convert all sorts of biomass few other creatures can use into meat, but I shy away from making trolls literal infinity engines.
*Albeit unpalatable meat.
**The troll would simply convert 'useless' fat and even some slight muscle mass into regenerated flesh, emerging from the combat ravenous, if it survived, which would neatly explain both the typical emaciated troll build and the usual disposition of trolls. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 18:26:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Mindseye
Could the Giants eat Tarrasques?
Since there is only one, no, they could not eat Tarrasques. If they did manage to defeat THE Tarrasque, of course, I imagine that they could eat it for quite a long time, in light of the regeneration.
I imagine that the suggestion was made in jest, but this is actually something I've contemplated. Not in relation to the tarrasque, specifically, but in regards to how regeneration works in the Realms.
Namely, is regeneration a magical ability to regrow flesh, limbs and other body parts that function as a greatly accelerated version of natural recovery and regrowth or is it a magical ability to conjure into effect new flesh and body parts?
Is it, in other words, a Transmutation effect or a Conjuration one? And, if it is a Conjuration effect, are regenerating creatures creating biomass from nothing or conjuring it from some undisclosed, possibly extraplanar location?
The major implications of this revolve around whether a single troll can produce infinite meat* even while being starved and constantly having pieces cut off it. Or does it need to eat biomass of equivalent mass to the newly regenerated flesh?
I can see why simplistic D&D rules would ignore the latter in monster stats for trolls, because it wouldn't matter in the context of one battle**, but it matters enormously when it comes to worldbuilding.
I personally favor troll regeneration being an efficient way to convert all sorts of biomass few other creatures can use into meat, but I shy away from making trolls literal infinity engines.
*Albeit unpalatable meat.
**The troll would simply convert 'useless' fat and even some slight muscle mass into regenerated flesh, emerging from the combat ravenous, if it survived, which would neatly explain both the typical emaciated troll build and the usual disposition of trolls.
My thinking matches yours, here. Otherwise, a single troll could make a troll army by just ripping off a few bits and letting them regenerate into new trolls, and then letting them do the same.
I know it's occasionally been stated in the fiction that if you cut a hand off a troll, the troll grows a new hand and the severed hand grows a new troll -- but that's clearly ridiculous, and I dismiss it as an in-setting popular misconception. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 21:57:42
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I just view troll regeneration as regrowing the initial, damaged troll...and that the severed limbs will move around and attack people and try to reattach themselves to the dismembered troll body.
I too, think the one troll can create infinite trolls a stupid idea.
All that said, one would surmise that trolls would need natural predators that have access to acid or fire (dragons?) because otherwise their populations would be quite ridiculous given their regeneration abilities (compared to other warlike monsters that don't regenerate their battle wounds and would be subject to infection/disease). |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 00:05:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My thinking matches yours, here. Otherwise, a single troll could make a troll army by just ripping off a few bits and letting them regenerate into new trolls, and then letting them do the same.
I know it's occasionally been stated in the fiction that if you cut a hand off a troll, the troll grows a new hand and the severed hand grows a new troll -- but that's clearly ridiculous, and I dismiss it as an in-setting popular misconception.
Yeah, given that different sources that are meant to apply in the Realms conflict on the subject of whether new trolls grow from dismembered trolls, at least some of the sources must represent in-setting misconceptions. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 00:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I just view troll regeneration as regrowing the initial, damaged troll...and that the severed limbs will move around and attack people and try to reattach themselves to the dismembered troll body.
I too, think the one troll can create infinite trolls a stupid idea.
All that said, one would surmise that trolls would need natural predators that have access to acid or fire (dragons?) because otherwise their populations would be quite ridiculous given their regeneration abilities (compared to other warlike monsters that don't regenerate their battle wounds and would be subject to infection/disease).
According to 'Ecology of the Troll' in Dragon #301, stomach acids are enough to stop troll regeneration, so anything that can swallow a troll whole can kill it.
Noted predators of trolls that are mentioned in the article are ankhegs, dragons, oozes, purple worms and remorhazes. That beings said, I imagine intelligent, civilized races are the greatest enemies of trolls, as they compete for the same food sources and dwarves, elves and humans are all capable of deciding to exterminate a troll tribe that encroaches on their lands with fire and spell. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 03:06:25
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Tarrasque regeneration presents great difficulties in a 2E Arcane Ages adventure (Karsus of Netheril needs certain Tarrasque parts as a spell component so he sends the PCs on a murderous fetch quest).
Trolls are oft-mentioned in lore but rarely described in any detail outside adventure encounters and monster manuals. There's a joke that half the people in the North have a "Trollslayer" or "Orcslayer" surname - more because of the sheer number of these creatures than because of victory in battles/campaigns. It seems like trolls are somewhat common across Faerun yet no terribly hard to hunt and exterminate, so troll regeneration evidently has limits.
Trolls are invariably hungry enough to eat anything and anyone they encounter (including each other) - troll numbers aren't infinite, and they're described as sometimes spreading outward after they've destroyed local ecologies- so I'm guessing finite food resources equate with finite troll populations regardless how "infinite" their regeneration might be. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 16:08:40
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According to 2e Monster Manual:
"Separated limbs fight for the remainder of the battle, then scuttle back and rebind with the body once the battle is over. Limbs unable to reach the body die within 24 hours, but this is of little consequence since trolls regenerate lost body parts (including the head) within a week. If a troll is dismembered and scattered, the largest surviving piece regenerates. The others die within one day if they cannot rejoin that piece."
EDIT: additional information |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 31 Oct 2019 16:10:36 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 20:50:11
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| Thanks Barastir, that lines up with what I thought about troll regen. |
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Giant Food Requirements
