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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 21:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Like I said above, D&D has moved mostly away from alignment-based mechanics - in both requirements for classes and how spells function - since 4th Edition came out. 5th Edition simply continued the growing tradition. For example in 5E the spell Protection from Evil and Good simply protects the recipient from attack by aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. The fact that an elemental monster is "Chaotic" or that a fiend is "Lawful" plays no part.
Well, yeah. But some people here seem to be playing earlier editions and some more oldschool GMs might still use alignment more extensively even in 5e games. |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 22:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Like I said above, D&D has moved mostly away from alignment-based mechanics - in both requirements for classes and how spells function - since 4th Edition came out. 5th Edition simply continued the growing tradition. For example in 5E the spell Protection from Evil and Good simply protects the recipient from attack by aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. The fact that an elemental monster is "Chaotic" or that a fiend is "Lawful" plays no part.
Well, yeah. But some people here seem to be playing earlier editions and some more oldschool GMs might still use alignment more extensively even in 5e games.
Yeah, Spells have been Nerfed along with the rest of the game. Protection from Evil and Good protects from neither. Brilliant! |
Sam |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 19:16:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Who writes down the alignment on the character sheet? Especially at 1st level when the character hasn't done anything yet?
In my experience? Everybody. It's part of the character creation process. |
Ewan Cummins |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2019 : 14:44:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
Well, yeah. But some people here seem to be playing earlier editions and some more oldschool GMs might still use alignment more extensively even in 5e games.
Different editions will have their own take on Alignment, which more often than not does take a heavier role in game-mechanics. Not to say that they can't also have similar effects in later editions (namely 4e or 5e) it's just not baked into the system is all.
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
Yeah, Spells have been Nerfed along with the rest of the game. Protection from Evil and Good protects from neither. Brilliant!
One man's nerf is another man's balance *shrugs*. But the spell does protect the recipient from Good and Evil, just in the more pure forms of those alignments - Celestial and some Fey being very "Good" and Undead and friends being almost exclusively "Evil". I'd say that only very specific differences (a Baelnorn, for example being good or a fallen Celestial being bad) allow oddities of Alignment.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2019 : 14:46:51
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quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
In my experience? Everybody. It's part of the character creation process.
That's precisely my point, which is why when I read BrennonGoldeye's quote about being based on Actions rather than what the person puts down on the paper, I got quite confused. |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2019 : 19:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
In my experience? Everybody. It's part of the character creation process.
That's precisely my point, which is why when I read BrennonGoldeye's quote about being based on Actions rather than what the person puts down on the paper, I got quite confused.
I imagine what he means is that the test of alignment comes in actual play.
Sometimes a player ends up playing something different than what's on the sheet. Then it may be time to alter the list alignment, applying alignment change penalties as appropriate.
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 18 Oct 2019 19:09:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 00:59:20
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I see more disagreements about alignments than misunderstandings about alignments in this scroll. Perhaps because Candlekeep tends to attract erudite scribes.
It seems to me that only the least worldly D&D players can't really grasp "difficult" alignment distinctions (like LE or like NG-vs-CG).
Yet CN is always the first favourite of players who want to abuse/exploit the game without constraint... Lawful Stupid paladins are tragically/laughably common RPG trope... TN (druids) are interpreted and implemented differently by every DM I've ever met... LN is invariably exaggerated to neurotic modron-like obsession with imposed order, authority, and conformity... CE and NE tend to both neglected insofar as they're functionally represented as being basically interchangeable. The problem is usually confused players (and DMs, and authors), not confusing alignment rules, so limiting the array of alignments isn't going to avert the confusion. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 02:38:01
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This is probably the best alignment discussion of its length I've seen in a long, long time.
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Ewan Cummins |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 15:30:48
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| Regarding what Diffan asked, I always put down an alignment, but its also just a "this is my best guess" and its not considered a major thing to change it later as long as the DM agrees (that's the thing, he just has to agree that I'm more closely following the proposed alignment). That being said... I can count on one hand the number of times I've changed my character's alignment in 30+ years. Of all things, I find the alignment system more in use for archetype creatures like outer planar fiends, etc... and how they will react because for many of them its a very core to their being (i.e. the main difference people see between demons and devils is you can take a devil at his literal word for the most part... you just have to be careful on wording). Honestly I see more online fights about alignment than useful ones, which is why I typically just stay out. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 20:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I usually keep a secret track of good and bad actions during a campaign. If they do good and selfless acts then they get a +1 if they do evil (that includes killing when its not in self defence, I don't like murder hobos) then they get a -1.
When they reach +100 they move up a step (evil to unaligned to good) when they reach -100 they move down a step.
Any alignment dependent abilities are then locked out if their alignment doesn't match. Of course the players don't know it has happened. I also change how NPCs interact with them at this point because I figure enough good or evil actions are going to get noticed
Cool.
I have run a lot of Ravenloft, a setting which includes a built-in system for tracking the possible effects of evil deeds.
A PC who acts like a monster might eventually turn into one.
Detect evil doesn't function in Ravenloft.
You will know it by its fruits...
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 19 Oct 2019 20:42:14 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2019 : 02:26:42
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I always mark down alignment, but it's usually just one aspect of my character's personality. I really like to flesh out their personalities pulling in some Myers-Briggs typology, the real world alignment website information, paying attention to their actual Int Wis Cha scores and background to find something that I think works. Frankly, imagining the character back story and how that shaped the character is half the fun for me even if I only get to use very little of it in the actual game. So for example, my next character for Descent into Avernus will be a NG (CG tendencies) eladrin Dexterity-based Oath of the Ancients paladin with an Int 8, Wis 12, and Cha 16 with a variant Noble background and ENFJ Myers-Briggs typology. I also decided to roll some random background stuff from Xanathars…..
Alignment: Aelar is neutral good with chaotic tendencies. He values universalism first and foremost; Understanding, appreciation, tolerance, and protection for the welfare of all people and for nature. Associated single values are: advancing equality, being one with nature, having wisdom, filling the world with beauty, advancing social justice, being broad-minded, protecting the environment, and seeing the world at peace.
Personality: Aelar is an effervescent presence. Everything he does ripples outward and affects all those around him. His presence can radiate love or muddy the room in depression. His glance can awaken joy or convey anxiety. His every act can open hearts and minds, and his words can inspire freedom. He is a natural-born leader, full of passion and charisma.
Despite his recent enslavement, he is unbowed and remains a firm believer in others. He radiates authenticity, concern, and altruism and is unafraid to stand up and speak when he feels something needs to be said. He is a natural communicator especially when he can touch the raw emotions of others.
Truth for Aelar is found by listening to the heart and not the mind. He is prone to go with his gut and instincts, rather than think through a problem. As such, he sees little value in book learning, despite his elite education as a fey noble. Ultimately, Aelar believes that magic (in all its myriad definitions) belongs more to the heart than to the head and everything which is done, should be done from love or joy or righteous anger. Not surprisingly, Aelar can, at times, be overly idealistic, too selfless, too sensitive, and self-critical.
Aelar is unfazed by mighty and important creatures, having been surrounded by them while serving the Court of Stars amid the silver trees of Senaliesse. As with other fey of Senaliesse, when Aelar cross paths with mighty fey (or other mighty creatures), he chants the rhyme, “Beneath the sun or falling rain, I yield to thee thy path again,” in deference. In contrast, he has been known to swear an oath to archfey Titania when battling foes, “By the court of the Summer Queen, you shall pay for your transgressions.”
Eladrin Seasons: An eladrin is associated with one of the four seasons, its coloration and mood. Aelar favors autumn.
Autumn: The season of peace and goodwill, when summer's harvest is shared with all.
Winter: The season of contemplation and dolor, when the vibrant energy of the world slumbers.
Spring. The season of cheerfulness and celebration, marked by merriment as winter's sorrow passes.
Summer. The season of boldness and aggression. A time of unfettered energy.
Character Traits – Personality: My eloquent flattery makes everyone I talk to feel like the most wonderful and important person in the world.
Autumn: If someone is in need, I never withhold aid.
Winter: In truth, I am alone. Dejection and isolation make me numb inside.
Spring: Every day is the greatest day of my life.
Summer: I stand tall and strong so that others can lean on me.
Character Traits – Ideal: Noble Obligation. It is my duty to protect and care for the people beneath me.
Character Traits – Bond: The common folk must see me as a hero of the people.
Character Traits – Flaw: I secretly believe that everyone owes me for my suffering.
Autumn: Everyone is my friend, or a potential friend.
Winter: Nothing matters to me, and I allow others to guide my actions.
Spring: A pretty face infatuates me in an instant, but my fancy passes with equal speed.
Summer: I am stubborn. Let others change.
Temptation: Pride. My deeds are noteworthy, and no one takes note of them more often than me.
Class Training: The world can be a terrible place. I want to serve as a beacon of light shining against the gathering shadows.
Patron: I honor the Court of Stars led by the Archfey Queen Titania of the Summer Court and seelie fey, though I also have an affinity for the Seldarine, especially Sehanine Moonbow, the patron of my mother.
Tenets of the Ancients: The tenets of the Oath of the Ancients have been preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.
Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.
Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.
Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can't preserve it in the world.
Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.
Personal Goal: Leadership. I will win a great battle that the bards will sing about, and in so doing, I will become an inspiration to others.
Character History: The Siannodel’s are a noble house of the fabled Feywild city of Senaliesse—the sacred treetop demesne of the Court of Stars and host to countless visitors from across the Feywild and beyond. There, Aelar and his siblings grew up among a loving and well-to-do family. Aelar is the eldest of triplets born to his mother Felosial Siannodel, a priestess of Sehanine Moonbow from, and Halimath (née Lathalas), a wealthy eladrin courtier who bought his way into the nobility and was famed for stalking his enemies across the Feywild and beyond. Aelar’s younger sister is Adrie, a CG divine soul sorcerer, and their younger brother is Caeldrim, a CN fey patron warlock pact of the blade. All three are young adults of 111 years old. Aelar learned to be a guardian of his people, one of the Shields of Senaliesse, famed for their preemptive and stealthy attacks on enemies of the eladrin, especially evil fey.
About five years ago, Aelar was seduced by an eladrin named Valdenea. In truth she was an infernal fiend of possession in league with a hag named Morgan Mudwallow. For months, Aelar lived as their mind-controlled thrall before he was rescued by the Shields and his siblings. He saw his love for what she was ere she escaped to the Nine Hells. It nearly broke Aelar, but the power of the Feywild, the vitality of life, and the strength of his family brought him back. Still, Aelar knows a legacy of evil still scars his soul, and he carries the fiend’s magic horn as a reminder of his trials and his mission. During his recovery, Aelar worked with spellcasters of the Shields to magically transfer some of his fears into a new weapon, Tha’Vil (“Vigilance’s Point”). And now, Aelar is committed to taking up the mantle of his aged father Halimath in hunting down the dangerous fey and fiends that threaten eladrin or good folk of any kind.
Aelar hopes to bring justice to Valdenea if he should ever meet her again, and his hunt has led him, once again, from the Feywild’s Glimmerwood through a fey crossing to the Prime’s Wood of Sharp Teeth, where he hoped to consult with allied paladins of Elturel on his next step.
Appearance and Mannerisms: Aelar is dashing and handsome with an infectious laugh and twinkle in his eye. He most often associates with autumn, his skin tanned with long, auburn hair and green eyes with ruby flecks. In winter, his skin and hair turn alabaster and snow white, in spring they brighten to include reddish hues, and in summer, they lighten, to blondes. Aelar is 4 foot, 10 inches tall and 98 pounds, he is lithe and lean, not overly muscular but carrying hardly any fat. His movements are fluid, graceful, and captivating. He favors his right hand, but is dexterous enough to use either hand effectively. Though he always dresses for the occasion, at leisure, Aelar dresses stylishly, often in bright colors.
Symbol: A white diamond with a blue star glowing in its center all inset in a blue moon, signifying both Queen Titania and Aelar’s family lineage (notably its linkage to the elven goddess Sehanine Moonbow).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2019 : 16:09:20
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I went another route, and have posted my 'chart' before. I kept all the alignments, after much consideration, and instead rebuilt the Great Wheel, using just the Nine. I found the other 'realms' unnecessary, and rather redundant. The two-axis system we have (almost) always had in D&D is pretty damn perfect, and I wouldn't change that at all. 4e tried to change that, amongst other things, and then 5e fixed it. That says it all.
And NO, I am not 'back'. I am just bored today. I am supposed to be working on the textures for a clothing mod (thats what I do now - mod computer games), and like usual, I am procrastinating.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2019 : 16:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I went another route, and have posted my 'chart' before. I kept all the alignments, after much consideration, and instead rebuilt the Great Wheel, using just the Nine. I found the other 'realms' unnecessary, and rather redundant. The two-axis system we have (almost) always had in D&D is pretty damn perfect, and I wouldn't change that at all. 4e tried to change that, amongst other things, and then 5e fixed it. That says it all.
I've played that and it certainly works. I've also played the "there's one outer plane with increasing shadings as you move around the wheel." I really liked that, as it allowed more easily for wars. The outer planes can still be "infinite" just along the diameter, not along the circumference. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2019 : 18:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I went another route, and have posted my 'chart' before. I kept all the alignments, after much consideration, and instead rebuilt the Great Wheel, using just the Nine. I found the other 'realms' unnecessary, and rather redundant. The two-axis system we have (almost) always had in D&D is pretty damn perfect, and I wouldn't change that at all. 4e tried to change that, amongst other things, and then 5e fixed it. That says it all.
I've played that and it certainly works. I've also played the "there's one outer plane with increasing shadings as you move around the wheel." I really liked that, as it allowed more easily for wars. The outer planes can still be "infinite" just along the diameter, not along the circumference.
I like the Great Wheel structure, and my way of dealing with other planes is to say that the Wheel is just the order of the portals from the Outlands. Other planes can and do exist, they just lack those major portals.
And as most of the planes are infinite, by definition they can't fit into any organizational structure.
In essence, the Outlands is an airport. It has direct flights to a lot of places, but the lack of a direct flight to a particular destination doesn't mean it doesn't exist -- it just means you have to go there a different way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2019 : 23:10:00
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I too have wondered about "true neutrality". To me, where TN fails, is the saying "Silence (inaction) implies consent." But sometimes you just have to suck it up, because to attempt to change the situation would be deadly.
What I do like is the mechanic when a CRPG will penalize you for straying from the extreme Alignments. Sometimes (most of the time?) these games give you desired bonuses from an extreme Alignment... and the PC goes out and abuses said ability. That PC should be penalized for "Breaking their Oaths", so to speak. Just my 2 groats. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2019 : 01:02:46
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I prefer the alignment-based Great Wheel model as well, it's integrated superbly into AD&D cosmology (and game rules).
But the Great Wheel also has plenty of flaws - basically everywhere a mixed-alignment pantheon resides - which require an "infinite" number of contrived (counterintuitive, inelegant, implausible) workarounds and explanations to make everything fit together.
So other models (Cosmic Tree, Astral Sea, etc) are equally valid and useful planar metaphors. They aren't as intrinsically resonant with 9-peg alignment systems... so they're better suited to gaming with less emphasis on alignments... and it's no surprise that their adoption into mainstream D&D has helped erode the significance of alignments.
It all started with one Good-aligned drow. Now we have paladins, orcs, undeads, celestials, fiends, modrons, and other things with traditionally absolute and iconic alignments being available (and expected) in every alignment flavour the game provides. I think this is a disservice, Evil angels and Lawful demons were once the stuff of myth and legend (and religion), but now they're just extra paragraphs of uninteresting backstory written to help validate extra stats. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2019 : 01:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I prefer the alignment-based Great Wheel model as well, it's integrated superbly into AD&D cosmology (and game rules).
But the Great Wheel also has plenty of flaws - basically everywhere a mixed-alignment pantheon resides - which require an "infinite" number of contrived (counterintuitive, inelegant, implausible) workarounds and explanations to make everything fit together.
So other models (Cosmic Tree, Astral Sea, etc) are equally valid and useful planar metaphors. They aren't as intrinsically resonant with 9-peg alignment systems... so they're better suited to gaming with less emphasis on alignments... and it's no surprise that their adoption into mainstream D&D has helped erode the significance of alignments.
It all started with one Good-aligned drow. Now we have paladins, orcs, undeads, celestials, fiends, modrons, and other things with traditionally absolute and iconic alignments being available (and expected) in every alignment flavour the game provides. I think this is a disservice, Evil angels and Lawful demons were once the stuff of myth and legend (and religion), but now they're just extra paragraphs of uninteresting backstory written to help validate extra stats.
Evil angels really don't work so well (for me, anyway) outside their RW religious framework.
I prefer the D&D demons to D&D devils because the demons are almost all game constructs, totally fictional. They have a nice swords and sorcery vibe. The devils of the Nine Hells draw so heavily from real-world demonology that it's not hard to see why some people in the 80s were concerned about the game being inappropriate for kids and mixed up with occultism. Of course AD&D was never Satanic, but to more than a few people it might be worrisome to see Asmodeus listed in the Monster Manual. He's in the Bible, after all. Not exactly obscure.
I agree with you about Outer Planar outsiders and alignment.
Blurring the lines seems top me to negate the point of having demons, celestials, etc in the game in the first place.
I'm a 'paladins are Lawful Good and that's that', guy.
If other alignments have champions, I'd rather use the funky ones from Dragon Magazine with names like 'illrigger' and distinct sets of abilities.
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 22 Oct 2019 01:28:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2019 : 03:49:05
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quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
I prefer the D&D demons to D&D devils because the demons are almost all game constructs, totally fictional. They have a nice swords and sorcery vibe. The devils of the Nine Hells draw so heavily from real-world demonology that it's not hard to see why some people in the 80s were concerned about the game being inappropriate for kids and mixed up with occultism. Of course AD&D was never Satanic, but to more than a few people it might be worrisome to see Asmodeus listed in the Monster Manual. He's in the Bible, after all. Not exactly obscure.
That's why I really, really liked the 2E terms: Baatezu and tanar'ri. The words still have a kind of sinister sound, but they're entirely divorced from any real-world religions.
Plus, to me, the terms demon and devil are -- again, because of real-world religion -- practically synonymous. I can't keep them straight the way I can keep baatezu and tanar'ri straight. That's why I tend to just use "fiends" as a catchall.
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
I'm a 'paladins are Lawful Good and that's that', guy.
If other alignments have champions, I'd rather use the funky ones from Dragon Magazine with names like 'illrigger' and distinct sets of abilities.
I'm totally in agreement with this. Paladins were modeled on a specific ideal. Sure, let other alignments do something similar -- Weis and Hickman showed me how well that can work in the Rose of the Prophet books. Just make them different, as befits their different alignments. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2019 : 10:10:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
Am I only one who think that 5 aligments are better than 9? Purely lawful evill and chaotic good make no sense. Also unaligned is better than 3 neutral aligments. Dont know why they revert to archaic 9. There always were too many aligments for me. Btw is there any crpg on d&d4 rules?
I disagree.
The nine alignments that you are speaking of gave the game more to delve into. It made it so that you had to play your character by his/her alignment & veering off that path may lead to an alignment shift. This could cause all sorts of in game issues, ones that may effect your abilities to cast spells, may turn you from a paladin to a simple fighter.
I still use the old alignment chart in my games. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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5 aligments better than 9
