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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:14:19
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In 3E druids can be any neutral alignment: LN, CN, N, NE, NG, N.
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Ewan Cummins |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
So its look like in D&D everyone is puppet without right to have opinions.
I don't think absolute good and evil prevent free will. :)
I've more issues with divination and prophecies that really work.
Well its hard to accept someting as good if you sonsider it evil  |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:16:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
Well its hard to accept someting as good if you sonsider it evil
D&D just works a bit differently than IRL. In real world there are very few people who really consider themselves evil, while in D&D there are whole knightly orders who are proud of being evil. |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:17:05
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quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
In 3E druids can be any neutral alignment: LN, CN, N, NE, NG, N.
I thougth it was only NG, N and NE its even more strange now. |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:24:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
Well its hard to accept someting as good if you sonsider it evil
D&D just works a bit differently than IRL. In real world there are very few people who really consider themselves evil, while in D&D there are whole knightly orders who are proud of being evil.
All gods look like puppets of Ao and people try to appease them. For me look like injustice in realms is far greater than wall of faithless. Its Ao himself (itself?). |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
unless you mean by neutrality some strange adherence to 'Balance.'
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
Thats why unaligned is better than neutral. I already said that
How do y'all play Druids?
Good question!
I haven't made much use of druids in my games although I can think of a couple of NPCs.
One was a hermit who lived in the woods and had more contact with deer and bears and owls than human beings. Pretty easy to be 'Neutral' when you don't deal with people much at all.
The other was a somewhat sinister old man who roamed the semi-ruined and deserted quarter of a city in Ravenloft accompanied by a pack of feral dogs. The PCs were always a bit creeped out by him. He'd follow them and never help fight monsters. Not would he help the monsters or villains. Instead, he and his dogs cleaned up afterward, whether the kill was were-rats or human thugs...
The party never even discovered that the old codger could cast spells.
There was a druid PC in my Birthright game, but that sort of druid can be Neutral Good, and this guy was. He was a naturalist scholar and backwoodsman who later built up a small, benevolent cult among hunters and woodcutters in a monster-threatened foothills province.
Druids of the True Neutral sort do make potentially fun and interesting enemies for a good-aligned party of adventurers.
And, IIRC, in the Greyhawk supplement, Druids were listed as Neutral with evil tendencies. They were also NPCs/monsters at first. That fits with the idea of pagans banished to the deep woods where they hold frightening and bloody rituals.
Wicker Man...
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 09 Oct 2019 23:34:11 |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:29:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
All gods look like puppets of Ao and people try to appease them.
You need to read about monotheism. At least in D&D you can get to another plane without Ao. |
Edited by - Alexander Clark on 09 Oct 2019 23:29:26 |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
All gods look like puppets of Ao and people try to appease them.
You need to read about monotheism. At least in D&D you can get to another plane without Ao.
Trust me I don't want read about monotheism anymore. You think why I enjoy fantasy settings at all |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 04:47:04
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| How are gods AO's puppets when his only rule is "Do your damn jobs'? |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 10:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
How are gods AO's puppets when his only rule is "Do your damn jobs'?
They are Ao puppets as they must follow his rules. For example when some god cease to exists someone must take his portfolio (and everyone not following portfolio is harshly punished). Also he is basically untouchable and everyone is slave to his mess. As someone said he make something abosolute good and evill even if there is place to disaagrement. Not to say that these rules cant be overthrown . Evil is as mandatory in realms as is good. Ao is Evil tyrant. |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 13:20:03
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It seems to me that Ao is little more than a plot device for the Avatar Crisis modules. There needed to be a reason for the gods to be cast down and scattered across Faerun. Cue the 'overgod.' When Greenwood first wrote of the Godswar concept in 1981 (Down to Earth Divinity , Dragon #54) the rules for avatars hadn't been developed yet and the Godswar was a pretty vague struggle directly between deities.
I have largely ignored the Godswar in my FR/Ravenloft crossover game, which is easier as the campaign is set a century later and I already established that the Godswar occurred differently than in canon.Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul never got killed, for one thing.
There was a conflict involving avatars clashing in Faerun, but I've left the details vague. I will probably dispense with Ao entirely. He has essentially no setting impact outside that one event.
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 10 Oct 2019 13:40:33 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 15:27:43
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I'd direct folks to the following site, which pulls from multiple official sources on alignment as well as from modern psychology:http://easydamus.com/alignment.html . I think it has a great deal to say about how lawful evil differs from chaotic evil and how chaotic good varies from lawful good. There is a distinction, and I think it is real. If nothing else the role of devils versus demons is explored fairly well in Mord's Tome (not to mention numerous other sources).
Mod edit: Put a space after the html, because it was reading it as part of the link, and not working.  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Oct 2019 21:03:45 |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 18:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'd direct folks to the following site, which pulls from multiple official sources on alignment as well as from modern psychology:http://easydamus.com/alignment.html. I think it has a great deal to say about how lawful evil differs from chaotic evil and how chaotic good varies from lawful good. There is a distinction, and I think it is real. If nothing else the role of devils versus demons is explored fairly well in Mord's Tome (not to mention numerous other sources).
I still stand for 5 aligmnents. There is reason someone cut 9 to 5. If someone is against current traditions and hate current autorities but want to install new traditions and autorities is he lawful or chaotic? "He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society." What if his moral compass become current law in society? He is lawful now? |
Edited by - Sluban on 12 Oct 2019 18:10:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 21:10:33
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'd direct folks to the following site, which pulls from multiple official sources on alignment as well as from modern psychology:http://easydamus.com/alignment.html . I think it has a great deal to say about how lawful evil differs from chaotic evil and how chaotic good varies from lawful good. There is a distinction, and I think it is real. If nothing else the role of devils versus demons is explored fairly well in Mord's Tome (not to mention numerous other sources).
Mod edit: Put a space after the html, because it was reading it as part of the link, and not working.
That's a really good write-up of the alignments. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 00:30:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
There is reason someone cut 9 to 5.
Applying the same line of though, there is a reason someone went from 3 to 9 too.
Though I have to admit that I always had issues with Chaotic Good myself. |
Edited by - Alexander Clark on 13 Oct 2019 00:30:38 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 02:10:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'd direct folks to the following site, which pulls from multiple official sources on alignment as well as from modern psychology:http://easydamus.com/alignment.html . I think it has a great deal to say about how lawful evil differs from chaotic evil and how chaotic good varies from lawful good. There is a distinction, and I think it is real. If nothing else the role of devils versus demons is explored fairly well in Mord's Tome (not to mention numerous other sources).
Mod edit: Put a space after the html, because it was reading it as part of the link, and not working.
That's a really good write-up of the alignments.
Thanks Wooly. I'm particular fond of the "Real" Alignments section and use that to inform the way I play my characters or NPCs. In particular, it creates an even clearer distinction between the alignments IMHO. |
Edited by - TomCosta on 13 Oct 2019 02:11:12 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 12:01:39
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| In the 2e Complete Druid's Handbook there is a section on their alignment and worldview. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 14:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
How are gods AO's puppets when his only rule is "Do your damn jobs'?
They are Ao puppets as they must follow his rules. For example when some god cease to exists someone must take his portfolio (and everyone not following portfolio is harshly punished). Also he is basically untouchable and everyone is slave to his mess. As someone said he make something abosolute good and evill even if there is place to disaagrement. Not to say that these rules cant be overthrown . Evil is as mandatory in realms as is good. Ao is Evil tyrant.
That very first sentence is gibberish; by that logic every worker, employee and student in the world is a puppet as they have to follow the rules of their places of work/study.
Otherwise, there's nothing objectionable about, well, anything you've stated about AO. He leaves the gods to their own devices as long as they do their jobs and don't try to do stupid crap.
Myrkul's portfolios of dusk, old age, corruption, wasting, autumn and parasites are still floating around, so evidently AO doesn't make replacement deities mandatory either.
AO has nothing to do with alignments or the planes, either. The only setting where good and evil are mandatory is Dragonlance, AO could honestly care less if Shar ran an orphanage or if Mystra ate babies, as long as they did their jobs. |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 21:39:53
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| I'm sorry, but making something "simpler" rarely makes it "better" If you can't envision what Lawful Evil(Maoist China) and Chaotic Good(Good Hearted individualist) are that's an issue. |
Sam |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 14:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
How are gods AO's puppets when his only rule is "Do your damn jobs'?
They are Ao puppets as they must follow his rules. For example when some god cease to exists someone must take his portfolio (and everyone not following portfolio is harshly punished). Also he is basically untouchable and everyone is slave to his mess. As someone said he make something abosolute good and evill even if there is place to disaagrement. Not to say that these rules cant be overthrown . Evil is as mandatory in realms as is good. Ao is Evil tyrant.
That very first sentence is gibberish; by that logic every worker, employee and student in the world is a puppet as they have to follow the rules of their places of work/study.
Otherwise, there's nothing objectionable about, well, anything you've stated about AO. He leaves the gods to their own devices as long as they do their jobs and don't try to do stupid crap.
Myrkul's portfolios of dusk, old age, corruption, wasting, autumn and parasites are still floating around, so evidently AO doesn't make replacement deities mandatory either.
AO has nothing to do with alignments or the planes, either. The only setting where good and evil are mandatory is Dragonlance, AO could honestly care less if Shar ran an orphanage or if Mystra ate babies, as long as they did their jobs.
Everyone who is forced to do something against his will is slave. |
Edited by - Sluban on 15 Oct 2019 14:09:16 |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 14:07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
I'm sorry, but making something "simpler" rarely makes it "better" If you can't envision what Lawful Evil(Maoist China) and Chaotic Good(Good Hearted individualist) are that's an issue.
I posted many explanations for my claim in this thread. So if you can't envision it, that's issue. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 15:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
I'm sorry, but making something "simpler" rarely makes it "better" If you can't envision what Lawful Evil(Maoist China) and Chaotic Good(Good Hearted individualist) are that's an issue.
I don't think it's a matter of envisioning it, rather why these can't simply be "Good" or "Evil" and let the details and actions speak on the subject of law or chaos. I guess I don't see the need for the further clarification of "Lawful" in Evil or the "Chaotic" in Good when the ultimate outcome is the same - especially when such specifics don't have a bearing on the mechanics of the game.
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 15:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
I'm sorry, but making something "simpler" rarely makes it "better" If you can't envision what Lawful Evil(Maoist China) and Chaotic Good(Good Hearted individualist) are that's an issue.
I posted many explanations for my claim in this thread. So if you can't envision it, that's issue.
No, its an issue that you seem to think Alignment is something you "choose", Alignment is the response of the REST of the universe to your actions. You can "think" you not lawful evil all you want, the universe says otherwise, and treats you as such. |
Sam |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 15:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
I'm sorry, but making something "simpler" rarely makes it "better" If you can't envision what Lawful Evil(Maoist China) and Chaotic Good(Good Hearted individualist) are that's an issue.
I posted many explanations for my claim in this thread. So if you can't envision it, that's issue.
No, its an issue that you seem to think Alignment is something you "choose", Alignment is the response of the REST of the universe to your actions. You can "think" you not lawful evil all you want, the universe says otherwise, and treats you as such.
Where I said that alignment is something you choose? Almost nobody consider themselves evil. I will not repost my answers from this thread. I explained enough. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 22:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
No, its an issue that you seem to think Alignment is something you "choose", Alignment is the response of the REST of the universe to your actions. You can "think" you not lawful evil all you want, the universe says otherwise, and treats you as such.
Who writes down the alignment on the character sheet? Especially at 1st level when the character hasn't done anything yet? |
Edited by - Diffan on 16 Oct 2019 14:59:04 |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 22:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Especially at 1st level when the character hasn't done anything yet?
Unless you are playing a character like Alias it's pretty obvious your character did something when you start playing them at 1st level.
Characters are usually 16+ years old and being a level 1 in some class usually implies at least some training. |
Edited by - Alexander Clark on 15 Oct 2019 22:19:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 22:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Who writes down the alignment on the character sheet? Especially at 1st level when the character hasn't done anything yet?
I always do. Alignment is part of the overall character concept, and I put a fair amount of time into coming up with a character concept that interests me.
Obviously, alignment is not usually a major part of the concept, but before I ever start picking skills and equipment, and certainly before I'm sitting down to play, I've got at least a rough idea of just who my character is.
For me, it's all about the concept -- concept first, then pick skills, weapons, feats, even ability scores and class, all to support the concept.
One of my fave characters, for example: I decided he was a gun mage who'd been in the Cygnaran army and got out as quickly as he could, to do his own thing -- but was secretly in the Cygnaran Reconnaissance Service, on detached duty to be a kind of roving agent. He would have no apparent goals beyond the proverbial wine, women, and song, but in reality, he'd do whatever it took to support his nation.
I had all that decided before I even had his stats. Everything that I picked for his numbers and abilities was to support that backstory. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Oct 2019 23:03:58 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 15:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Especially at 1st level when the character hasn't done anything yet?
Unless you are playing a character like Alias it's pretty obvious your character did something when you start playing them at 1st level.
Characters are usually 16+ years old and being a level 1 in some class usually implies at least some training.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I always do. Alignment is part of the overall character concept, and I put a fair amount of time into coming up with a character concept that interests me.
Obviously, alignment is not usually a major part of the concept, but before I ever start picking skills and equipment, and certainly before I'm sitting down to play, I've got at least a rough idea of just who my character is.
For me, it's all about the concept -- concept first, then pick skills, weapons, feats, even ability scores and class, all to support the concept.
One of my fave characters, for example: I decided he was a gun mage who'd been in the Cygnaran army and got out as quickly as he could, to do his own thing -- but was secretly in the Cygnaran Reconnaissance Service, on detached duty to be a kind of roving agent. He would have no apparent goals beyond the proverbial wine, women, and song, but in reality, he'd do whatever it took to support his nation.
I had all that decided before I even had his stats. Everything that I picked for his numbers and abilities was to support that backstory.
Using my phone, I sort of messed up my initial response but it was in regards to BrennonGoldeye's quote of the actions you do determine your Alignment, not something you choose.
But following that, it sort of is a chicken or egg type of scenario. Initially the player does decide what the character's alignment is - based on when he created the character and typically the sort of backstory (long or short) he's made to put the character into the world. That's kind of why I like 5E's background flaws, ideals, bonds, etc because it fleshes out the what, where, why, etc of your character.
Yet as a character adventures or does whatever they're doing in the campaign, they make decisions based on these beliefs. So it should be asked: Did the character do something because he is adhering to his Chaotic Good alignment OR is the alignment the way it is because of the action he made - unconscious of the game mechanics of alignment?
But that's neither here nor there, in terms of the discussion of having 9 or 5 or 3 alignments. Since Alignment has been a mutable construct in the game mechanics of D&D for over a decade, I'm of the opinion that it rarely matters much to the overall concept of the game or role-play. In our 4E games I still have players write down old 9-point alignments mostly because of habit AND because it's rarely followed up on during play. |
Edited by - Diffan on 16 Oct 2019 15:09:45 |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 15:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
I'm sorry, but making something "simpler" rarely makes it "better" If you can't envision what Lawful Evil(Maoist China) and Chaotic Good(Good Hearted individualist) are that's an issue.
I don't think it's a matter of envisioning it, rather why these can't simply be "Good" or "Evil" and let the details and actions speak on the subject of law or chaos. I guess I don't see the need for the further clarification of "Lawful" in Evil or the "Chaotic" in Good when the ultimate outcome is the same - especially when such specifics don't have a bearing on the mechanics of the game.
So you see no difference between Freedom and Subjugation? I think it has alot to do with the mechanics of the game, well at least as much as Good and evil do. Im sorry, but there is a massive difference between LG and CG.. maybe you just haven't had a DM play it out correctly for ya. But, whatever floats your boat, I'll be CG till the day I pass. :) |
Sam |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 17:12:26
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
So you see no difference between Freedom and Subjugation? I think it has alot to do with the mechanics of the game, well at least as much as Good and evil do. Im sorry, but there is a massive difference between LG and CG.. maybe you just haven't had a DM play it out correctly for ya. But, whatever floats your boat, I'll be CG till the day I pass. :)
I do see the difference, quite starkly. What I don't see is the need for clarification in terms of game-mechanics for the differences. Subjugation, especially when fear and terror are used as enforcers, is quite Evil and Freedom from oppression is certainly Good. Do these beliefs or actions require a Lawful or Chaotic category too or do they simply work just as well as Evil and Good actions?
Like I said above, D&D has moved mostly away from alignment-based mechanics - in both requirements for classes and how spells function - since 4th Edition came out. 5th Edition simply continued the growing tradition. For example in 5E the spell Protection from Evil and Good simply protects the recipient from attack by aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. The fact that an elemental monster is "Chaotic" or that a fiend is "Lawful" plays no part.
The 9-point alignment system thus far is simply put into the game as a convenience to fleshing out character goals, behaviors, and role-play and little else. Stick with the 9-points or use the 4e 5-points or go "Old SchooL" with the 3-points as it matters little. |
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5 aligments better than 9
