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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:12:12
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This is mostly a opinion thread.
But does any one besides me think it's a bit cheesy and lame that Kel or any of the past Faerun human deities of dead/death has power over every humanoid, fey, dragon, etc, that dies on Faerun? I mean there are other deities of death in the other pantheons, but every humanoid, etc, that dies goes to Kel's realm (even back in 2e's FR) and he gets to decide if they are Faithless and False, or the souls that actually followed and venerated a pantheon have to wait there for thier deities or the dieties servents to come pick them up.
Why bother having deities of death/dead for the other pantheons then, since they really don't get any say about the souls of the races they created. Take Sehanine for example, she has no say on where an elven soul would go if it was Faithless or False, since that's Kel's duty.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2004 02:25:56
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:25:13
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kuje, it's because Kelemvor is the Lord of the Dead. It's his position given by Ao to judge the dead and then decide on what to do with them. No other god has the right or the power to mess around with the fate of the dead, which is why its also a burden to Kelemvor. Remember how he and Midnight's relationship went bad because Kelemvor had to protect the privacy and the rights of the dead?
About the portfolio of death in other pantheons, it's kinda like how Mask has the portfolio of thievery and so does Vhaerun. Because its two different pantheons, the same portfolio can appear for different gods. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:56:47
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Actually I somewhat agree. Although I am more split over the whole faithless, false thing. The Fugue Plane isn't really Kel's realm (mentioned as it is) but he seems to only hold power within the City of Judgement, Can't mess with the souls on the fugue plane waiting to be picked up (as they usually shout their God's name to get the taxi service) only the so called false and faithless cannot say anything really, so they get picked up by Kel's men and taken to the city to be judged.
Anyways not all deities of death are created equal ( ) as Yurtrus (orc god of death) is Chaotic Evil and may have no qualms over undead, and Osiris (mulhorandi God of Death) is Lawful Good, and uses some undead to protect tombs from Graverobbers and 'adventurers'  (EX. The Mummy), while Kelemvor (Basic Faerun God of Death, and center of this topic) is Lawful Neutral and frowns upon the existing, creation and use of the Undead.
Basically, Kelemvor's duty is to hand out punishment to the Faithless and False for the 'crime' of rejecting the gods, or being a none devouted follower (an oppertunist with no deitific loyalties) So really He couldn't be called the God of the Dead, but god of Punishment for the wrongfully accused of a stupid crime... but this could just be us ranting... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 00:04:52
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
kuje, it's because Kelemvor is the Lord of the Dead. It's his position given by Ao to judge the dead and then decide on what to do with them. No other god has the right or the power to mess around with the fate of the dead, which is why its also a burden to Kelemvor. Remember how he and Midnight's relationship went bad because Kelemvor had to protect the privacy and the rights of the dead?
About the portfolio of death in other pantheons, it's kinda like how Mask has the portfolio of thievery and so does Vhaerun. Because its two different pantheons, the same portfolio can appear for different gods.
That's still a lame reason to me that ONE "human" deity has complete power over every soul that dies on Faerun, when there are other deities of the dead/death that are worshipped on Faerun. Why should Kel have power over demihumans, dragons, and other humanoids when many of those pantheons have thier own deities of dead/death.
Yes it's like Mask but it isn't because Erevan at least get's the souls of elves who worshipped him, Mask doesn't. IMO Kel get's way to much power since EVERY soul that dies goes to the Fugue and he get's to judge the demihumans, draconic, fey, etc, even though they each have thier own deities of death/dead.
As an example I used on the WOTC boards, it's like me being a pagan and following the greek pantheon. Instead of going to Hades's realm I'd go to Heaven instead and wait around until Hades sent a servent to claim me or if I was False and Faithless I would just burn in Hell.
This is one of the many reasons why I never liked the Tot's and the whole Faithless and False rules for FR and why I don't use the Wall, Faithless, and False, but it's still interesting to debate about it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2004 00:12:29 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 00:44:41
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| I quite agree with your reasoning about the power the Lord of the Dead has but the position doesn't necessarily have to given to a human. There has been only four Lord of the Dead in FR's history; Jergal, Myrkul, Cyric, and Kelemvor. Yes, they were all once human but there are no rules about other races being the Lord of the Dead. However, imagine if the Ruler of the City of Bones wasn't human. Would you really want a dragon or a drow to be judging your arse when you are dead? Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 01:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I quite agree with your reasoning about the power the Lord of the Dead has but the position doesn't necessarily have to given to a human. There has been only four Lord of the Dead in FR's history; Jergal, Myrkul, Cyric, and Kelemvor. Yes, they were all once human but there are no rules about other races being the Lord of the Dead. However, imagine if the Ruler of the City of Bones wasn't human. Would you really want a dragon or a drow to be judging your arse when you are dead? Lol.
I'd still wouldn't care for that bit of text even if it was a dragon or drow deity that had that much power. There are at least 5 or more powers of death/dead in Faerun. It makes no sense that one "human" deity should have that much power over all souls in Faerun when there are other deities that do the same thing Kel does. Sehanine should have complete control over elven souls, even if they are False or Faithless, but she doesn't, Kel does. Dragon souls should be controled by the draconic deity of death/dead, but they arn't, they are controled by Kel, etc.
I know what AO said, but I'm asking as a out of game reason, does it make any sense why Kel has that much power? To me it does not when there are other deities of death/dead. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 02:00:53
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| Kuje, I guess the simplest way to look at it is that Kelemvor is a Greater Power while all the other gods with the portfolio of death or undead are intermediates and lesser powers. However, I seem to remember that Osiris is a greater power too so my theory wouldn't work... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 02:23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kuje, I guess the simplest way to look at it is that Kelemvor is a Greater Power while all the other gods with the portfolio of death or undead are intermediates and lesser powers. However, I seem to remember that Osiris is a greater power too so my theory wouldn't work...
I got that, I'll say it again, does it make any sense both in game and out of that just the "human" deity has that much power over ALL souls within Faerun, when there are other deities of death/dead as well. This has been one of the things that has always bugged me about ToT's and the Faerun pantheon. There should be no reason that Kel has power over demihumans, fey, humanoids, etc, unless those races worship or venerate the Faerun pantheon.
As I said, its like me worshipping the Greek pantheon, but arriving in the realm of the Celtic deity of death because for some strange reason he/she has more "power" over the souls of earth, even though I don't worship the Celtic pantheon.
I'm not asking for an in game explanation, I'm asking for an out of game opinion if it makes any sense that Kel has that much power over every living being that dies, even when there are racial deities of death/dead. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 02:37:51
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Kuje31, is there anywhere that it specifies that all souls go to Kelemvor? I'm not recalling any actual reference stating thus, nor do I recall anything saying that there were any non-humans on the Fugue Plane...
I have no problem with the souls of humans in Faerūn going to the Fugue Plain, and ditto for any half-elves that worshipped the Faerūnian pantheon.
As I see it, elves that didn't slide to Arvanaith would go to Sehanine, and dwarves would go to Dumathoin, and other races would go to their respective deities, etc.
In one of the Lost Gods books (ooh, I just mentioned a novel! ), Finder and his friends are hanging out in the Celestial Beauracracy's version of the land of the dead. That indicates that the Fugue Plain only applies to Faerūn and its deities. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 02:46:13
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| I just read in Faiths and Pantheons that halflings who die visit the realm of Urogalan, Halfling God of Death. He escorts their souls to other domains on the Green Fields (homeplane of the halfling pantheon), and Kelemvor doesn't have anything to do with it. You notice that Kelemvor doesn't judge orcs, or dragons, because they all have deities that deal with that (example: Yurtrus [orc death god] and Null [dragon death god]). I have never read that all souls are judged by Kelemvor. It is the death deity of that racial pantheon that does the job, and escorts the soul to becoming a petitioner on the homeplane of their patron deity. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 03:09:44
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Okay maybe my material is outdated but the FRCS, page 258 says, "When mortals die, thier souls are drawn to the Fugue. The spirits of the dead gather here, usually unaware that they have died. From time to time, anywhere from once a day to over a tenday, depending on the deities involved, the powers send representives - usually outsider of the appropriate alignment - to the Fugue, to gather the souls of thier worshippers."
The Player's Guide backs this up, "Souls naturally travel from the Prime to the Fugue upon death, but they cannot leave of thier own violation. Divine servants can travel here from the realms of thier deities and bring souls back with them...."
It says nothing that any of the other powers of dead/death of the demihuman, draconic, etc, races come collect the False and Faithless, which is detailed on page 259 and the Player's Guide also backs this up.
Which is what I have a problem with. Kel should not have power over any one who does not venerate/worship the Faerun pantheon. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2004 03:22:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 03:16:15
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I'd say that it was written from a purely humanocentric viewpoint, and that the dead of other races simply didn't enter into the equation. After all, Faerūn is dominated by humans, and it's their pantheon that is the most prevalent. So things like death and the afterlife get looked at from a human point of view, and the death of elves or dwarves or yuan-ti simply isn't addressed.
So, back to my original statement: humans go to the Fugue Plain, elves go to Sehahine, dwarves to Big Rock Candy Mountain -- er, Dumathoin, etc.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 03:22:25
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Really? I never knew Dumathoin was Dwarven God of Death...  It appears I have some reading to do... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 03:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd say that it was written from a purely humanocentric viewpoint, and that the dead of other races simply didn't enter into the equation. After all, Faerūn is dominated by humans, and it's their pantheon that is the most prevalent. So things like death and the afterlife get looked at from a human point of view, and the death of elves or dwarves or yuan-ti simply isn't addressed.
So, back to my original statement: humans go to the Fugue Plain, elves go to Sehahine, dwarves to Big Rock Candy Mountain -- er, Dumathoin, etc.
Then how do you explain the Player's Guide having the same info? All souls on Faerun go to the Fugue and if you are a non-human False or Faithless you also go to Kel's realm even if you have a racial deity of dead/death.
This is why I never cared for this concept and you and I have had this debate once before but it was about babies and children and the whole False and Faithless concept. We even stumped Rich with it. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2004 03:30:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 04:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Then how do you explain the Player's Guide having the same info? All souls on Faerun go to the Fugue and if you are a non-human False or Faithless you also go to Kel's realm even if you have a racial deity of dead/death.
This is why I never cared for this concept and you and I have had this debate once before but it was about babies and children and the whole False and Faithless concept. We even stumped Rich with it. :)
Does it specifically say all souls? Because we do have at least one example of souls going elsewhere...
Either way, I'd simply discard that and go with the racial deities grabbing the souls directly. It makes a lot more sense to do it that way.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Really? I never knew Dumathoin was Dwarven God of Death... It appears I have some reading to do...
According to Demihuman Deities, Dumathoin is the protector of the dead. There doesn't appear to be a dwarven god of death, so I'd assume that Dumathoin covers that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 04:18:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Does it specifically say all souls? Because we do have at least one example of souls going elsewhere...
Either way, I'd simply discard that and go with the racial deities grabbing the souls directly. It makes a lot more sense to do it that way.
The Player's Guide backs up the info from the FRCS, "Souls naturally travel from the Prime to the Fugue upon death, but they cannot leave of thier own violation. Divine servants can travel here from the realms of thier deities and bring souls back with them...."
Seems to me it says all souls. :) And if those souls are False or Faithless then they belong to Kel, no matter if they were human, demihuman, etc, when they were alive.
That was my point, did any one else find it strange that Kel has power over all souls, no matter what race they were when alive, as long as they are False and Faithless and lived on Faerun. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2004 04:30:03 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 07:44:54
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| But Kelemvor isn't really just a god of the Dead (thus the corpse on the material) but also the False and the faithless. Take The Prince of Lies for an example, the Warrior (I forget his name) died false. Now, when he was sent to the fugue plane there were others calling to their deities to collect them. He however, could call no names out, only wail a bit, but called to no gods. He was found and picked up By Cyric's minions and taken to the City of Judgement to be judged. Only once inside could he call any god's name but he could not be taken in by (Torm wasn't it?). I would think the same really holds true under Kelemvor. Collect False and faithless from the Fugue Plane, and watch over the material (and some noncorporeal) dead. IE.Prevent creation of Zombies, lichs, skeletons, ghosts, phantoms, wights, banshees, Dracoliches, etc... So when thought of like that he does judge the dead, but only the false and the faithless. The rest wait on the fugue plain for their Deity to collect them. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 08:45:46
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I think your missing how it works
Kelemvor is the Faerian god of death AND the FALE and FAITHLESS the False and faithless are not Kelemvors followers and he draws no power from them
The path is as followers
Creature dies (Creature being orc, HobGoblin, Human, elf, Ogre etc)
Creatures soul rocks up out on Fugues plane
One of the following happans
a) If the Soul was a Faithful folllower of one of the deities then a servant of one of those deities will come to Fugues plane and take all the deities followers away. (that being any deity Torm, Kelemvor, Yurtus etc) they have not been judged by Kelemvor.
OR
b) The soul are found to be one of the Faithless (a person who never worshiped a god or didnt acknowledge the gods existence) or the false (A false person claims a deity but doesnt actively follow its goals and dogma for example a person who claimed Tyr god of justice as there patron but stole anything that wasnt bolted down) these people are judged and Kelemvor assigns them an apporate punishment. The false and faithless can be ANY RACE an Orc, a human, an elf what ever All the false and faithless are judged by the Lord of the Dead and ONLY the False and the Faithless.
There is now (as of 3ed) a third option, if your on Fugue plane and no deity will pick you up and you dont want to go to the City of Judgement then you can Sell your soul to the devil (literally there are Baatezu roaming Fugues plane who offer to buy the Souls of the dead, theres a Villian in one of the Sembian series novels who did this) or your soul could be stoleon during a demon raid and taken to the Abyss
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I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 19 Apr 2004 01:07:30 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 09:09:18
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No, the False and the Faithless being false and faithless I do get. But those are his main charges. I think he has really little to do with death itself. But I totally agree with what you said |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 04:50:48
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I'm still not 'all-up' on knowledge of the afterlife of the Realms, so I've email this thread to the Sage. I'm sure he'll have something to add to this discussion.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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SoulLord
Seeker
Mexico
62 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 18:34:07
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ok now im very confused on the realms afterlife what happens if
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a.- a LG person falsely claims to be a follower of Shar(NE) what would his punishment for being false be?
b.- same thing with a NE individual claiming to be a follower of a LG deity?
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2.- what is the reward in the afterlife for a follower of shar?
SoulLord |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 18:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulLord
ok now im very confused on the realms afterlife what happens if
1.-
a.- a LG person falsely claims to be a follower of Shar(NE) what would his punishment for being false be?
b.- same thing with a NE individual claiming to be a follower of a LG deity?
2.- what is the reward in the afterlife for a follower of shar?
SoulLord
The LG and the NE would be stuck in the wall because they are faithless. The follower of Shar would be picked up on the Fugue and taken to her realm on the Shadow to become a petitioner.
It still just really bugs me that Kel has power over demihumans, dragons, fey, etc, if they are false and faithless. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Apr 2004 18:59:13 |
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SoulLord
Seeker
Mexico
62 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 20:30:21
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I see now, then being false is the same as being faithless right?
SoulLord |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 21:24:16
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulLord
I see now, then being false is the same as being faithless right?
SoulLord
No. :)
False: The False intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in and to which they had made a personal commitment.
Faithless: The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of thier lives without truly believing. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 00:31:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulLord
I see now, then being false is the same as being faithless right?
SoulLord
Probably the best way to put it would be to say the Faithless are Atheists and the False are Agnostics, it doesnt quite fit but it should close enough to get the difference across |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 02:10:22
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I've posted this on the Wizards forums in the cramming religions column this spawned from.
I think the appropriate terms are:
False -- those who have dedicated themselves to a god and then betrayed this dedication.
Atheistic -- those who refuse to believe in the gods despite overwhelming proof -- very very few and can be considered mad.
Agnostic -- see atheist. The only difference between agnostic and atheist is that the agnostic simply doesn't believe they have enough proof yet, but is open for convincing. I'd say the amount of proof is fairly heavy given the times of trouble.
Apathetic -- this is the category I believe more people are referring to when they say atheistic. These are people who acknowledge that there are gods, that they have walked the earth, that they have divine power, that they allow their worshippers to channel their divine power, and that they shephard the souls of their followers in the afterlife. However, despite knowing all this, they do not act upon it for one reason or another. They generally can be said to not see how it affects their day to day existence and simply get on with living rather than turn to religion. This is probably a fairly large percentage of the population.
Sarta |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 07:28:26
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Actually Kuje, if even lipservice is paid then they acknowledge the deities, thus making them false. Faithless are very rare in the realms. Much Like the Athar fraction of Sigil/planescape.
I'm not too aggitated by Kel holding sway over all false and faithless... We're just angered that the false well the faithless at least, are punished for unreasonable crimes.
Sarta that is an excellent summary, we applaud thee |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 07:33:16
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| Sounds like the Cardinals need some sleep. They just referred to themselves in the first person singular. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 07:38:10
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It is easier to trade between singular and plural rather than using I/we/whatever And two seperate coloured speech.... Bu thanks since I doo need some sleep |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 08:12:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Actually Kuje, if even lipservice is paid then they acknowledge the deities, thus making them false. Faithless are very rare in the realms. Much Like the Athar fraction of Sigil/planescape.
I'm not too aggitated by Kel holding sway over all false and faithless... We're just angered that the false well the faithless at least, are punished for unreasonable crimes.
Sarta that is an excellent summary, we applaud thee
Then the FRCS is wrong because I got those right out of the FRCS as well as the Player's Guide. :) So the game designers are wrong, not I. Page 259 of the FRCS under City of Judgement. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Felen Enthelion
Acolyte
Italy
16 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:31:37
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quote:
I'd still wouldn't care for that bit of text even if it was a dragon or drow deity that had that much power. There are at least 5 or more powers of death/dead in Faerun. It makes no sense that one "human" deity should have that much power over all souls in Faerun when there are other deities that do the same thing Kel does. Sehanine should have complete control over elven souls, even if they are False or Faithless, but she doesn't, Kel does. Dragon souls should be controled by the draconic deity of death/dead, but they arn't, they are controled by Kel, etc.
I know what AO said, but I'm asking as a out of game reason, does it make any sense why Kel has that much power? To me it does not when there are other deities of death/dead.
This topic is really interesting.
I think that Kelemvor has power on all Toril's souls because he is the only god of death of Realmspace who is not a multispherical deity (and the same was for Jergal, Myrcul and Cyric before). I mean, it is not important who you worshipped or what race you ae. You was born on Toril and that means you'll be judged by the singol-sphere god of death of Toril. That could be different fr a Planar in a Planescape setting (that means, I was born on the planes so I will be judged by the god of feath of the pantheon I worshipped), but every Crystal sphere theshould have its own rules on the destiny of a soul born on it.
All the other deities of death (Sehanine, osiris etc) arrived in the realmspace because Ao allowed them to do it and are like "guests". That's why on Toril Kelemvor is the king between them.
A pat from this, does someone remember where in second edition was stated about False and Faithless destiny? |
Edited by - Felen Enthelion on 20 Jun 2008 12:11:23 |
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FR's Afterlife.
