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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 13:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
reread what I posted above about Abbathor and the "ghost dragon" in 1001 DR... the exact same year that Tuelhalva Drakewings is sent down to Peleverai to find some non-existent "undead dragon". Basically, I'm seeing possibly some kind of misinformation network that provides enough information to show as true, but ends up with Tuelhalva getting sent somewhere that Gargauth can latch onto him.... and all of this revolving all about dragons.... and undead ones at that.
Yeah, I understand that, and for the record, agree that inserting false rumours into true information sounds plausible.
I just don't understand why you would bring this up in a scroll about what powerful priests might be found in the Cult of the Dragon in 1373 DR instead of one of the many scrolls that exist about the lore and history of Gargauth.
Oh, I tend to go where a conversation takes me all the time. Algashon takes me to Tuelhalva. Tuelhalva takes me to Gargauth. Plus, you mentioned Algashon having an involvement with Gargauth from DoF. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 14:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
reread what I posted above about Abbathor and the "ghost dragon" in 1001 DR... the exact same year that Tuelhalva Drakewings is sent down to Peleverai to find some non-existent "undead dragon". Basically, I'm seeing possibly some kind of misinformation network that provides enough information to show as true, but ends up with Tuelhalva getting sent somewhere that Gargauth can latch onto him.... and all of this revolving all about dragons.... and undead ones at that.
Yeah, I understand that, and for the record, agree that inserting false rumours into true information sounds plausible.
I just don't understand why you would bring this up in a scroll about what powerful priests might be found in the Cult of the Dragon in 1373 DR instead of one of the many scrolls that exist about the lore and history of Gargauth.
Oh, I tend to go where a conversation takes me all the time. Algashon takes me to Tuelhalva. Tuelhalva takes me to Gargauth. Plus, you mentioned Algashon having an involvement with Gargauth from DoF. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 18:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
"The Lord of the Hidden Layer" is Eltab, not Gargauth
Yeah, that's what I get for trying to append lower planar titles from memory.
I meant to say 'the Hidden Lord'.
I've fixed it now.
Oh, I'm sure Gargauth wouldn't mind, he has a thing for replacing other powerful fiends. Eltab on the other hand is a raging bull that needs to vent 1500+ years of frustrations.
More on topic, otherwise my contribution is meaningless, during 2E there was an overabundance of rings of regeneration (at least in the AD&D 2E supplements I'm going through at the moment, every other NPC of note has one) and several dragons are able to use magic items meant for humans in some way or another.
So maybe an easier way for the Cult to get Iyrauroth fixed is to get one of these rings and jam it into one of his teeths or one of the smallest horns protruding from his head. It would probably take much more time to regenerate a dragon's eyes than it takes for a human's limbs but I think it's doable. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 22:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Back in 2e, Rings of Regenerations also explicitly didn't help with wounds that weren't incurred while the wearer wore the ring. And that's certainly how such rings work in my Realms.
Hrm, true.
Well another idea (that still requires a decently high level spellcaster but it's viable for both arcane and divine ones), that would be a bit of sideways circumventing the problem, is Iyrauroth getting new eyes in the form of the fiendish grafts of Fiends Folio (or whatever variation you want to devise).
In this case the problem would be in summoning a suitable fiend but that would open up a bit the number of Cult of the Dragon members/associates that can do it.
EDIT: and the fact that this would require the Cult undertaking a pact with a fiend to accomplish would turn into a strong bargaining chip in their talks with Iyrauroth |
Edited by - Demzer on 22 Aug 2018 22:46:27 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2018 : 20:37:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Back in 2e, Rings of Regenerations also explicitly didn't help with wounds that weren't incurred while the wearer wore the ring. And that's certainly how such rings work in my Realms.
Hrm, true.
Well another idea (that still requires a decently high level spellcaster but it's viable for both arcane and divine ones), that would be a bit of sideways circumventing the problem, is Iyrauroth getting new eyes in the form of the fiendish grafts of Fiends Folio (or whatever variation you want to devise).
In this case the problem would be in summoning a suitable fiend but that would open up a bit the number of Cult of the Dragon members/associates that can do it.
EDIT: and the fact that this would require the Cult undertaking a pact with a fiend to accomplish would turn into a strong bargaining chip in their talks with Iyrauroth
I agree, my dear fellow Follower of the Scaly Way.
Only, eh, can you perhaps inform the 200' long, blind, furious great wyrm, racked with agony and incoherent with rage, that instead of, well, curing his injuries, we plan to improve him. By grafting infernal, demonic eyeballs into his swollen, pus-filled, enflamed eye sockets and hope the fiend and him can get along.
I'll just wait here for his answer. Yes, here, right where there is a long drop down this waterfall into the hidden valley, just sort of hang around as I ready my components for flying... |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 23 Aug 2018 20:38:43 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2018 : 21:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Back in 2e, Rings of Regenerations also explicitly didn't help with wounds that weren't incurred while the wearer wore the ring. And that's certainly how such rings work in my Realms.
Hrm, true.
Well another idea (that still requires a decently high level spellcaster but it's viable for both arcane and divine ones), that would be a bit of sideways circumventing the problem, is Iyrauroth getting new eyes in the form of the fiendish grafts of Fiends Folio (or whatever variation you want to devise).
In this case the problem would be in summoning a suitable fiend but that would open up a bit the number of Cult of the Dragon members/associates that can do it.
EDIT: and the fact that this would require the Cult undertaking a pact with a fiend to accomplish would turn into a strong bargaining chip in their talks with Iyrauroth
I agree, my dear fellow Follower of the Scaly Way.
Only, eh, can you perhaps inform the 200' long, blind, furious great wyrm, racked with agony and incoherent with rage, that instead of, well, curing his injuries, we plan to improve him. By grafting infernal, demonic eyeballs into his swollen, pus-filled, enflamed eye sockets and hope the fiend and him can get along.
I'll just wait here for his answer. Yes, here, right where there is a long drop down this waterfall into the hidden valley, just sort of hang around as I ready my components for flying...
That's why you need to always have a magic mouth handy!
Actually I don't think replacing the eyes makes him incur possession problems, and he is already chaotic evil but of course your campaign may vary. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2018 : 18:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
That's why you need to always have a magic mouth handy!
Not much of an improvement, when you're effectively imprisoned in the blind wyrm's lair by his servitors and guards, ostensibly as honoured 'guests' while Iyrauroth and the Cult of the Dragon work out their 'partnership', but really because you know the way into his lair from having come there with the necrmancer Estrella Dreamheart and it's an open question if he'll allow anyone to live with that knowledge.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Actually I don't think replacing the eyes makes him incur possession problems, and he is already chaotic evil but of course your campaign may vary.
By reading the rulebook, you can know that for a fact. But in the Realms, it isn't like simplistic D&D game effects written up in official sourcebooks are the only possible effects of magical rituals.
What guarantee has Iyrauroth that grafting infernal eyes to his empty sockets works the way the Followers of the Scaly way say it works and isn't simply a way to control him through some fiendish agency?
Also, it's not as if everyone whose Alignment is listed as Chaotic Evil will be aware of that and consider all inhabitants of the Abyss their ideological brethren. Even if the rule effect of demonic grafts are to shift Alignment to Chaotic Evil, that doesn't mean that someone already CE wouldn't perceive the effect as whispers of madness and fury trying to influence his actions.
In game terms, the character might still be CE, but the demonic influence could still be motivating different actions than he'd decide on his own. Not all CE characters are the same.
Edit: Basically, the PCs managed to blind Iyrauroth and are heading to his lair, while he's weak, for the traditional heroic 'slaying of wyrm and becoming vulgarly rich from his hoard, the wealth of the dwarven kingdom that was there before him and the wealth of the orcish kingdom that was there before it'. Okay, so maybe the circumstances aren't all that traditional.
Tracking down dwarves and orcs who could find Hollow Mountain and secret ways that led to it without fighting through every orc tribe in the Vast and other threats in the Earthspurs, that took some doing. Convincing them to join forces, with each side receiving their own ancient ancestral heirlooms and regalia once the dragon is slain, well, that took prophecy, signs and portents. There is a significant chance that one PC is acting the part of some weird Mirror Universe Gandalf type to a party of orcish adventurers whose numbers include the future King of Vastar restored.
Anyway, long story short, instead of following the blinded Wyrm of the Peaks immediately, the PCs are paying their house call some two and a half months later. So, the survivors of the group of lesser Followers of the Scaly Way who had been Estrella Dreamheart's entourage for her embassy to Iyrauroth, but were left behind when she and the wyrm attacked the Master's Library, have had a long time to reach out for help.
Complicated, of course, by the fact that Iyrauroth doesn't want to advertise his weakness, doesn't want anyone to know the way to his lair and doesn't want to release these Cultists, who know both, to go a anywhere. Iyrauroth just wants one priest of the Cult of the Dragon to arrive and heal his cursed eyes!
So, the magelings, merchants-venturers and mercenaries of the Cult who are Iyrauroth's 'guests' have been reduced to writing coded, cryptic missives delivered by magical means (or enspelled birds) to various priests they might know in the Cult who are nearby, trustworthy and powerful enough. Or to other Keepers of the Secret Hoard or Wearers of Purple who might know such a priest.
I'm trying to decide if anyone has replied by now. Or might even have gotten there by now, though that is unlikely. The negotiations would be circumspect, torturous and slow, considering the paranoia and distrust on all sides. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 27 Aug 2018 17:21:47 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2018 : 22:33:09
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I don't know where you get that idea about a ring of regeneration and 2nd edition.
The standard ring of regeneration restores one point of damage per turn (and will eventually replace lost limbs or organs). It will bring its wearer back from death. (If death was caused by poison, however, a saving throw must be successfully rolled or the wearer dies again from the poison still in his system.) Only total destruction of all living tissue by fire or acid or similar means will prevent regeneration. Of course, the ring must be worn, and its removal stops the regeneration processes.
No mention was ever made of having to have the ring on while injured to regenerate... |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2018 : 23:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I don't know where you get that idea about a ring of regeneration and 2nd edition.
The standard ring of regeneration restores one point of damage per turn (and will eventually replace lost limbs or organs). It will bring its wearer back from death. (If death was caused by poison, however, a saving throw must be successfully rolled or the wearer dies again from the poison still in his system.) Only total destruction of all living tissue by fire or acid or similar means will prevent regeneration. Of course, the ring must be worn, and its removal stops the regeneration processes.
No mention was ever made of having to have the ring on while injured to regenerate...
It was always the official rules position, albeit not spelled out clearly in the rules until either the end of 2e or start of 3e. See 'Sage Advice' in Dragon #39 p. 31 for the rule that Rings of Regeneration won't regenerate limbs lost before putting the ring on. There were multiple such replies in Sage Advice over the 2e era when I was a regular reader, but I'm too lazy to track them all down.
The point is, Rings of Regeneration were never intended to be free healing and fixed crippling injuries for everyone near the owner. Otherwise, crippling wouldn't even exist in D&D campaign worlds. So this interpretation was always assumed, but as the first magic item descriptions were short and the designers didn't have the extra couple of decades of experience with rules lawyers, it didn't find its way into the DMG at first. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2018 : 02:41:31
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That kind of makes sense, but I know that in my head the alternative view held by the Masked Mage was the prevalent one. I always thought that the simple issue of time was such that it couldn't be "used for everyone" and similarly, just how many PCs lost a limb anyway? Few in my book. Anyway, I guess official is official but I don't see how the alternative view mucks up a campaign unless that game is focused on the chopping off of limbs!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2018 : 03:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
DoF also says that Algashon "has begun to hear the whispers of Gargauth once more", but in the history of the Cult, it was the enemies of Algashon and his attempts to bring the Cult under the influence of Bane who heard the whispers of Gargauth.
Algashon was slain fighting Tuelhelva Drakewings and other cultists influenced by Gargauth and opposed to the Cult of the Dragon becoming a Banite order, but I haven't yet found a source that indicates that Algashon Nathaire ever wavered from the sincere worship of Bane in his life.
I actually proposed a while back that algashon was a member of the knights of the shield and used his position as banites and cultist to get onto the shield council (I forget how I made the links, they are in an old thread on here somewhere).
THO sort of confirmed the link with a nod and a wink. It means that algashon had access to the shield [..]
So when it says algashon heard gargauth once more it it probably accurate in that he has heard the whispering of gargauth before.
The simplest interpretation is that Gargauth saw Algashon as a valuable asset and tried to convert. But the Banite refused, he would work with Gargauth only as much as it's strategically useful and resist encroachments on his domain. Since some others are already subverted by Gargauth, it escalates to a schism.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
They presumably flew. On dragonback.
Or used disguises and/or teleports. Cult of the Dragon has a lot of spellcasters, is a secret organization, they move around without attracting undesirable attention almost all the time.
They probably prepare adequate evacuation plans, too.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, so one thing that does pop in my mind is "where was this dwarven hall".... it occurs to me that if the dwarves were some of the first inhabitants of what becomes the Cliffside City of Peleverai after the Great Rift collapsed and the landrise is created...
Yes, in the old times humans often had settlements built over abandoned dwarven structures - Impil's Tor, Ravensgate and so on.
There were Bhaerynden and then Shanatars, so dwarves probably lived all over the area. But then, so it was in many other places.
More to the point, this story says "Astaroth" abandoned the area before the trouble started, rather than sticking there.
Also, we still don't know whether Landrise appeared before or after the Great Rift.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2018 : 08:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
That kind of makes sense, but I know that in my head the alternative view held by the Masked Mage was the prevalent one. I always thought that the simple issue of time was such that it couldn't be "used for everyone" and similarly, just how many PCs lost a limb anyway? Few in my book. Anyway, I guess official is official but I don't see how the alternative view mucks up a campaign unless that game is focused on the chopping off of limbs!
-- George Krashos
Well, I play a Realms campaign using GURPS and one of the differences is less abstract combat. If an axe blow can split the skull of an ogre, it will take off a merely human hand. So, in GURPS, crippling injuries, permanent trauma and lost limbs are a standard part of combat, not just something that can only be caused by specific magical effects like the Sword of Sharpness.
Granted, PCs mostly seek to use good armour, protective items and layered defences to avoid taking either crippling or life-threatening injuries. But NPC adventurers often retire when they lose a limb, experience a bad break to a joint that doesn't heal properly or otherwise suffer crippling injury from their adventuring lifestyle.
Plenty of NPC adventurers don't have the attentions of a deity or the grace and favour of a 13th level priest. So they suffer their career-ending injury and there isn't much they can do about it. By the presence of one-armed or one-legged adventurers in the Realms, we know that crippling injuries aren't something to brush off. Certainly, if one Ring of Regeneration could cure all the crippling in Waterdeep over the course of an adventuring party over-wintering there, completely free for the owner, I would expect permanent crippling to be unknown by anyone able to afford staying in an inn. So we know that's not how the Realms work already.
It would play havoc with my suspension of disbelief if the PCs were the first to discover that with a Ring of Regeneration, they could fix any career ending injury without spending magical energy, without the favour of a god, without any medical knowledge or diagnosis, just making people wear a ring for a couple of hours.
In case any scribes missed it, though, the official 3e rules made explicit what had previously required Sage Advice from Dragon or a GM making a call about how Regeneration metaphysics worked in his campaign. So, pretty much no matter what edition of D&D rules you might be using, Rings of Regeneration require you to have been wearing them when you suffered a crippling injury for the ring to work in fixing it.
I seem to remember this property of regeneration rings appearing in Realms fiction, too, but I don't know if that was a vignette in Dragon, a short story or a novel. In any case, to me, the fact that Rings of Regeneration are limited in this way are an integral aspect of Realmslore, without which it would be difficult to explain how any old soldiers in the Realms can limp, wear eye-patches or retire due to back injury.
These things are fixable, but they require the personal intervention of one of the most powerful servants of the gods, i.e. a priest of at least CL 13th (that is, someone powerful enough to be a high priest somewhere). And high priests tend not to use their most powerful spells for the benefit of anyone not in high favour with the god and somehow connected to the divine plan for furtherance of their portfolios.
Just having enough money to buy a Ring of Regeneration doesn't allow a character to take on a career where he earns back the value of the Ring in short order by healing every modestly successful former adventurer in Faerun, who suffered some kind of crippling injury in their career, and then just continues fixing people in return for their indentured service.
That would be a classic setting-breaking game design error, where a spell or magical item is given loosely defined powers that aren't necessarily game-breaking in a typical dungeon use, but change the setting out of all recognition if any character is even moderately intelligent and logical. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 27 Aug 2018 11:48:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2018 : 14:39:25
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, so one thing that does pop in my mind is "where was this dwarven hall".... it occurs to me that if the dwarves were some of the first inhabitants of what becomes the Cliffside City of Peleverai after the Great Rift collapsed and the landrise is created...
Yes, in the old times humans often had settlements built over abandoned dwarven structures - Impil's Tor, Ravensgate and so on.
There were Bhaerynden and then Shanatars, so dwarves probably lived all over the area. But then, so it was in many other places.
More to the point, this story says "Astaroth" abandoned the area before the trouble started, rather than sticking there.
Also, we still don't know whether Landrise appeared before or after the Great Rift.
On the question of the Landrise and Great Rift, I prefer the more simpler answer of "at the same time". One of the ideas that I've proposed is that the Great Rift was caused by an impact and that the Landrise was essentially caused by the land cracking and lifting up on one side. I've furthermore proposed that the river that traverses underground and exits out of the side of the landrise (River Shaar) was caused by this object impacting and creating a tunnel downward from the great rift that eventually opened wide enough to make a river over centuries, and that this opens up in a waterfall (or series of waterfalls exiting at points along the "Peleverai Canyon") at the cliffside city of Peleverai.
Furthermore, this object may have something to do with the Pit of Maleficence.
Hmmm, since it would be the humans that rename the city to Peleverai, it would seem a decent idea to make a name for the dwarven city that "becomes" Peleverai later on. If the source of the city was due to an underground river caused by a massive impact, what do you think of this
Dunlurar Burakrinol
From the dwarven words
Dunlur - underground river
Ar - to cut, slash, or lay open
Burakrin - way through, passage
ol - magic
Its kind of long... part of me also wants to put the name Shaar or Shaer in it somehow. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Aug 2018 20:34:42 |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2018 : 00:43:48
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Sammaster set protections at the Great Glacier?
Any further data, Icelanders?
I'd love a few remaining protections to be traps for the unwary |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2018 : 09:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Sammaster set protections at the Great Glacier?
Any further data, Icelanders?
I'd love a few remaining protections to be traps for the unwary
From the last novel in the Year of Rogue Dragons, it appeared that the ancient elven citadel was protected by various summoned dragons and sundry magics that Sammaster had either layered atop of old elven magics or twisted from their original purpose to serve his. |
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Cult of the Dragon and Priests in 1373 DR
