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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 22:04:49
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I'm looking for information available on the most powerful priests and other divine casters among the Cult of the Dragon in Mirtul of 1373 DR.
I know that Sammaster brought Algashon Naithaire back as a Banelich 'before his destruction' at the end of 1373 DR, but exactly at what point in the year was Algashon active again?
And, as he doesn't seem to have played any visible part in what happened in Impiltur, Damara and in the frozen elf citadel where the mythal was destroyed, where was he from his return to the Realms and the end of 1373 DR?
There's no evidence of Algashon Nathaire in Unther or Threskel either during the Rage, though I suppose he might have visited briefly. At any rate, he seems not to have been adjudicating personally between the Mourktar cell of the Cult of the Dragon, the Great Bone Wyrm, the Black Lord's Cloak and the mainstream faction of the Cult, since the new structure of power marginalises the Mourktar cell.
As First Interpreter, Algashon forms a ruling triumvirate with the two powerful dracoliches, the Creeping Doom and the Sibilant Shade, but the Great Bone Wyrm is conspiciously absent from the new power structure after the destruction of the First Speaker.
What would be other powerful priests of the Cult of the Dragon, who might not have been personally involved in Sammaster's war in Damara or in the siege of the Monastery of the Yellow Rose?
I'm asking because in my campaign, the Cult is trying to convince Iyrarauth, the Wyrm of the Peaks, to embrace dracolichdom. Iyrauroth was apparently receptive, enough so that he joined a flight of dragons and dracoliches in attacking the Iron Dragon Mountain and the Master's Library with the Cult of the Dragon.
The attack was disastrous and Iyrauroth suffered near fatal wounds, the worst of the being the total destruction of both eyes, as arrows that exploded with great magical force hit him in both eye sockets. The damage to the eyes and optic nerves is such that only the priestly magic equivalent to Regeneration (in D&D, a 7th level divine spell, requiring a clerical caster level of 13th+) or an arcane Wish could grant him his eyes back.
Of course, if Iyrauroth became a dracolich, he wouldn't need eyes to see, but the great wyrm is hardly content to meekly submit to such magic as a powerless petitioner, when he could be giving the Cult total control over him by so doing. So, as an earnest of good faith and show of devotion to him as one of the future rulers of Faerun, Iyrauroth is demanding that the Cult cure his grievous injuries before he'll consider their proposal of lichdom.
On instinct and theough a mystical connection to his hoard, the blind Wyrm of the Peaks managed to fly to his lair in Mount Grimmerfang, where he now rants and roars at the terrified envoys of the First Speaker who were tasked to re-establish contact after the necromancer who led the failed attack on Iron Dragon Mountain prudently chose to disappear in the wake of that disaster.
My question is therefore, who among the Cult of the Dragon leadership and senior spellcasters is even capable of doing what Iyrauroth demands? And who among these powerful Wearers of Purple and/or Keepers of the Secret Hoard is not busy doing other things, as this happens at the exact same time as the great battles of Sammaster's faux 'Zhengyi the Lich-King' army in Damara and the siege of the Monastery of the Yellow Rose (which, I'll admit, is pretty nearby)?
Also, side question, should the mission of re-establishing contact with Iyrauroth be assigned to one of the Vast cells, to the Wyrmsmoke cell (who knows how Dalgar, 'Blood of Iyrauroth' may feel about his progenitor), to a Damaran or Impilturan cell or to someone high enough in the Cult hierarchy as to be able to call on the resources of any cell as needed?
And if the last, who or what might such a one be, at this time of upheaval and great deeds for the Cult?
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Edited by - Icelander on 20 Aug 2018 00:01:21
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 23:05:10
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Salvarad, who resides in Saerloon, was a wearer of the Purple and at least level 20 even back as far as 1360. He was a priest of Shar and Cyric; although he pretended to like Talos. The only novel he's in is Spellfire, and a bit of a write up in Forgotten Realms Adventures in the Saerloon section (with Naergoth Bladelord).
I think he's the most powerful cult Priest. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 23:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Salvarad, who resides in Saerloon, was a wearer of the Purple and at least level 20 even back as far as 1360. He was a priest of Shar and Cyric; although he pretended to like Talos. The only novel he's in is Spellfire, and a bit of a write up in Forgotten Realms Adventures in the Saerloon section (with Naergoth Bladelord).
I think he's the most powerful cult Priest.
Good catch.
Both Salvarad and Faerlaun Onthim of the Sembian cell have the clerical power to cure Iyrauroth, if they hear of the opportunity and if there is not something happening in Sembia at the time which prevents them from leaving. Certainly the intrigue for future control of the Cult, with the Sibilant Shade from her lair in the Thunder Peaks, must be progressing apace even while the First Speaker is operating more openly, warring against powerful realms at great risk to the secret network of Cult cells built up over the centuries he was gone.
I'm pretty sure that the Sibilant Shade would not want Iyrauroth brought into the Cult as a dracolich who could rival her power, not unless she could be certain that he was securely under her command or at least influence. The way to do that would be to do her best to ensure that all the Keepers of the Secret Hoard and the Wearers of Purple were unified in putting up a strong front against the demands of Iyrauroth to receive his eyes back without a firm commitment of irrevocable allegiance to the Cult. That should force him to accept dracolichdom, if he ever wants to see again, and then it is simply a matter of ensuring that the necromancer who oversees the ritual to make Iyrauroth a Sacred One is loyal to (or subjugated by) the Sibilant Shade and that this necromancer twists the ritual to make Iyrauroth unable to oppose her machinations.
Of course, Salvarad and Faerlaur are likely to have their own goals, in service to their secret divine patrons, and if Iyrauroth somehow fits into those goals, the desires of the Sibilant Shade need not figure into their responses.
Of course, the location of Mount Grimmerfang is a secret that not even Elminster knows. So even if Salvarad or Faerlaur hear of the crippling of Iyrauroth, they would not necessarily know how to contact him. That would be known only to those within the Cult who had been in contact with the Wyrm of the Peaks before, which in my campaign was an independent Cult necromancer named Estrella Dreamheart (now prudently missing) and a cell located somewhere around Mulmaster or Kurth.
I've pretty much ruled the Wyrmsmoke cell out of the running for any important deeds at this point in time, given that they are in the process of fighting for their very lives against the Talons of Justice. I suppose Kaela Ulsant might rate the initiation of Iyrauroth as a Sacred One as important enough to abandon the holdings of the Wyrmsmoke cell, assuming that she somehow had information about Iyrauroth's lair in Mount Grimmerfang.
As it is, though, I imagine that she was not involved in Estrella Dreamheart's approach to Iyrauroth. For one thing, as a priestess of Bane, she was probably not trusted by the dominant faction of secular Cult of the Dragon members in the 14th century before the First Speaker returned. For another, the Mulmaster cell was notoriously torn with factional rivalries in 1370 DR. More than likely, Kaela Ulsant didn't rise to power in the Wyrmsmoke cell until after Bane's return in 1372 DR and the consequent increased power of his clery in Mulmaster.
Basically, therefore, some fairly unimportant and not all that personally puissant* Cult of the Dragon members from the northern Vast have to contend with a furious-but-blind great wyrm in his lair (where they had been making preparations for the ritual Estrella hoped to convince Iyrauroth to undergo), who demands that they bring him a powerful priest of the Cult of the Dragon, or he'll eat them as he ate the first few Followers of the Scaly Way he encountered once he returned grievously wounded from his disastrous foray against the Master's Library.
I guess it depends what powerful Cult priest these particular Followers of the Scaly Way might know by name or even have some slight acquaintance with. Then they will no doubt write a coded message which would be sent to either Kaera Ulsant, either of the priests in the Sembian cell or another Cult priest of power in that part of the world, if such a one exists.
*I imagined that they might range from apprentice magic-users to journeymen Cult necromancers, as well as some competent merchant-adventurers, mountaineers, bandits or the like, probably ranging from 3rd to 9th level, with no one higher than 12th lvl, or the equivalent. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Aug 2018 17:58:52 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 02:48:41
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Aside from the NPCs named in the Dragons of Faerun supplement, are there some mentions in novels or sourcebooks of powerful, mysterious spellcasters working independently of the Cult of the Dragon cell structure?
I mean, like such mysterious figures as Hesperdan of the Zhentarim or like some Master Harpers did before the Moonstars split off.
I'm thinking about someone, a necromancer, mage or priest, who might have been a Wearer of Purple or Keeper of the Secret Hoard decades ago, but who stopped being involved in the day-to-day business of their cell, while still retaining contact with some senior members of the Cult and a Sacred One or two. Someone who might regard Sammaster the First Speaker and/or Algashon Nathaire as emissaries of a prophetic truth and pledge their support to them once they discover their return, even if they might have wavered in their fervour for the Cult while it had no unified direction, no inspirational leaders and no apparent hope of attaining their goals in the near future.
Come to think of it, before Sammaster and Algashon Nathaire returned in 1373 DR, who were the people who coordinated the efforts of different cells, tried to arbitrate disputes between them and formulate policy for the Cult of the Dragon in 1358-1372 DR? |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 04:08:26
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There's Vjurn Blacktower, a high level necrophant up in the Western Heartlands. Given that Velsharoon is one of the Cult's patron deities, and the Cult's own affinity for necromancy, it's not inconceivable that someone high-up in the Lich-Lord's church is also involved in the Cult.
Admittedly, all we know of Vjurn comes from two sentences in Powers and Pantheons. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 11:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Come to think of it, before Sammaster and Algashon Nathaire returned in 1373 DR, who were the people who coordinated the efforts of different cells, tried to arbitrate disputes between them and formulate policy for the Cult of the Dragon in 1358-1372 DR?
From Spellfire, I think the decisions of the Cults in the Heartlands seemed to be made from the Sembian cell lead by Naergoth Bladelord and the group in there (Salvard, Zilvreen, and I can't remember who else). They seemed to call the shots on sending mages and dracoliches after Shandril and knew when to stop sending mages to their doom (always bothered me that they didn't talk about getting the dracoliches back since their phylacteries weren't destroyed).
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 17:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
From Spellfire, I think the decisions of the Cults in the Heartlands seemed to be made from the Sembian cell lead by Naergoth Bladelord and the group in there (Salvard, Zilvreen, and I can't remember who else). They seemed to call the shots on sending mages and dracoliches after Shandril and knew when to stop sending mages to their doom (always bothered me that they didn't talk about getting the dracoliches back since their phylacteries weren't destroyed).
Yeah, it seems that each cell was effectively independent until Sammaster First Speaker asserted his authority again in 1373 DR and the Sembian cell first among equals.
On the other hand, surely the First Speaker must have been 'unliving' for some time before 1373 DR, while he was preparing for the Rage. A long time was spent in the Monastery of the Yellow Rose, in disguise, and years must have gone into binding his phylactery to the Dracorage Mythal in the secret elven citadel of the Novularond Mountains that controlled the King-Killer Star. For that matter, the protections layered around the Great Glacier and the secret elven citadel must have taken him years to set up.
I suppose I'm wondering about long-lived necromancers or other high up members of the Cult of the Dragon whom Sammaster First Speaker might have brought into his confidence to assist with his schemes, before he revealed his continued existence to the members of the general cell structure of the Cult of the Dragon.
Granted, it's not likely that any of these intimates of the First Speaker were priests, but it would provide me with a list of people who might have been aware of the attempts to make Iyrauroth a Sacred One, and then I could decide which cells these people could have had contacts with.
Also, I'm wondering who the most powerful members of the Cult in the Bloodstone Lands and the Uplands of Impiltur might have been. Not to mention the Vast.
I haven't been able to find much about the history of the Cult of the Dragon around the Moonsea and in the Vast. There is the Wyrmsmoke cell in the western Galenas, but I don't know how the Vast fits into things. There are the feuding Cult cells of Throstulgrael (or "Velvet") in the Flooded Forest (the cell is located either near/in Kurth or in/near Calaunt) and Jaerathindryl (or "Malachite"), whose lair is in a forest south of Mulmaster, but no members of them are known to me.
Is there a sort of 'overcell' for the Vast, like the Wyrmsmoke for the Moonsea (which presumably unifies cells from at least Melvaunt, Mulmaster and Thentia, by the leadership list) and the Sembian cell (also unifies cells from the Sembian cities), or are the cells in the Vast under the influence of either the Sembian or Wyrmsmoke cells?
As for the phylacteries of the dracoliches destroyed by Shandril and the dracoliches being brought back by the Sembian cell:
quote:
Dragons of Faerun p. 56
The Wearers of Purple have not given up the hope that Aghaztamn and Shargrailar "the Dark" might someday be returned to unlife if their phylacteries can be found. None realize that both phylacteries lie hidden in the hoard of Aurgloroasa.
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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Aug 2018 18:00:33 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 19:41:41
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Not doubting you, but from where do we know that Sammaster brought back Algashon Nathaire? Was it in the novels about the dragon rage or something?
Hmmm, and interestingly, they made Algashon a mage-priest in 3.5e. From dragons of Faerun
In the Year of the Flamedance (865 DR), Algashon Nathaire,
a powerful mystic theurge in the service of Bane, ingratiated
himself with Sammaster, and the two began to work together. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Aug 2018 22:00:22 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 19:57:53
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I didn't think you needed to have the phylacteries to ressurect a dracolich to unlife..just the phylacteries had to not be destroyed? I thought I read that the spirits had already possessed little rock lizards near the sites (also 3 dracoliches "died" to Shandril, not 2?) in the Cult sourcebook...or the Draconomicon source book...god the 2nd edition had a lot of sourcebooks! :) But they would need to eat some of the ashes of their old bodies to be restored.
The Cult features prominently in the two books near Elversult, I believe as well, and a decent sized cell must be located there (Temple Hill and the Ruha book the Veiled Dragon). |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 20:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not doubting you, but from where do we know that Sammaster brought back Algashon Nathaire? Was it in the novels about the dragon rage or something?
The re-animated Algashon Nathaire's role as the First Interpreter in the ruling triumvirate of the Cult is pretty prominent in the parts about the Cult of the Dragon in Dragons of Faerun, which you quote below.
quote:
Dragons of Faerun p. 54
Before his own destruction, Sammaster secretly brought Algashon Nathaire back from the dead as a Banelich.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, and interestingly, they made Algashon a mage-priest in 3.5e. From dragons of Faerun
In the Year of the Flamedance (865 DR), Algashon Nathaire,
a powerful mystic theurge in the service of Bane, ingratiated
himself with Sammaster, and the two began to work together.
Actually, Algashon was a mage-priest in 2e. See his stats in Cult of the Dragon.
Dragons of Faerun consistently misspells his name and his 3.5 stats there do not include any of his former arcane abilities. DoF also says that Algashon "has begun to hear the whispers of Gargauth once more", but in the history of the Cult, it was the enemies of Algashon and his attempts to bring the Cult under the influence of Bane who heard the whispers of Gargauth.
Algashon was slain fighting Tuelhelva Drakewings and other cultists influenced by Gargauth and opposed to the Cult of the Dragon becoming a Banite order, but I haven't yet found a source that indicates that Algashon Nathaire ever wavered from the sincere worship of Bane in his life. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Aug 2018 20:59:26 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 21:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I didn't think you needed to have the phylacteries to ressurect a dracolich to unlife..just the phylacteries had to not be destroyed? I thought I read that the spirits had already possessed little rock lizards near the sites (also 3 dracoliches "died" to Shandril, not 2?) in the Cult sourcebook...or the Draconomicon source book...god the 2nd edition had a lot of sourcebooks! :) But they would need to eat some of the ashes of their old bodies to be restored.
The Cult features prominently in the two books near Elversult, I believe as well, and a decent sized cell must be located there (Temple Hill and the Ruha book the Veiled Dragon).
Well, if the phylacteries are controlled by a powerful dracolich who doesn't want her rivals coming back, it's not a mystery why they can't come back. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Aug 2018 22:09:52 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 22:15:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not doubting you, but from where do we know that Sammaster brought back Algashon Nathaire? Was it in the novels about the dragon rage or something?
The re-animated Algashon Nathaire's role as the First Interpreter in the ruling triumvirate of the Cult is pretty prominent in the parts about the Cult of the Dragon in Dragons of Faerun, which you quote below.
quote:
Dragons of Faerun p. 54
Before his own destruction, Sammaster secretly brought Algashon Nathaire back from the dead as a Banelich.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, and interestingly, they made Algashon a mage-priest in 3.5e. From dragons of Faerun
In the Year of the Flamedance (865 DR), Algashon Nathaire,
a powerful mystic theurge in the service of Bane, ingratiated
himself with Sammaster, and the two began to work together.
Actually, Algashon was a mage-priest in 2e. See his stats in Cult of the Dragon.
Dragons of Faerun consistently misspells his name and his 3.5 stats there do not include any of his former arcane abilities. DoF also says that Algashon "has begun to hear the whispers of Gargauth once more", but in the history of the Cult, it was the enemies of Algashon and his attempts to bring the Cult under the influence of Bane who heard the whispers of Gargauth.
Algashon was slain fighting Tuelhelva Drakewings and other cultists influenced by Gargauth and opposed to the Cult of the Dragon becoming a Banite order, but I haven't yet found a source that indicates that Algashon Nathaire ever wavered from the sincere worship of Bane in his life.
I actually proposed a while back that algashon was a member of the knights of the shield and used his position as banites and cultist to get onto the shield council (I forget how I made the links, they are in an old thread on here somewhere).
THO sort of confirmed the link with a nod and a wink. It means that algashon had access to the shield of the hidden a
Lord and gargauth had algashon send tuelhalva to the shaar. Then for whatever reason gargauth told algashon (via the shield) what tuelhalva was really doing and so caused a war between the two factions.
So when it says algashon heard gargauth once more it it probably accurate in that he has heard the whispering of gargauth before.
I'm at this very moment trying to figure out how tuelhalva and his crusade of cultists migrated to the shaar (Sembian, chessenta, old road, peleveran) without causing a holy hoohar |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 22:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I actually proposed a while back that algashon was a member of the knights of the shield and used his position as banites and cultist to get onto the shield council (I forget how I made the links, they are in an old thread on here somewhere).
THO sort of confirmed the link with a nod and a wink. It means that algashon had access to the shield of the hidden a
Lord and gargauth had algashon send tuelhalva to the shaar. Then for whatever reason gargauth told algashon (via the shield) what tuelhalva was really doing and so caused a war between the two factions.
So when it says algashon heard gargauth once more it it probably accurate in that he has heard the whispering of gargauth before.
That's interesting. If you track down any of these conversations and/or the references in canon that led to them, by all means point them out for me.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm at this very moment trying to figure out how tuelhalva and his crusade of cultists migrated to the shaar (Sembian, chessenta, old road, peleveran) without causing a holy hoohar
They presumably flew. On dragonback.
From the ground, there's no way to tell that a flying dragon has got someone on its back and, while it is presumably very alarming to see a flying dragon, most people in Faerun probably wouldn't try to chase after it.
Even those familiar with dragons wouldn't have any reason to note reports of a dragon or three flying to the Shaar, because those who study dragons know that the Shaar is popular hunting ground for dragons.
Any lesser Followers of the Scaly Way (thus not important enough for dragons to carry) drawn to Peleveran might have traveled there overland from the Border Kingdoms, the Vilhon Reach or Unther, after sailing there as perfectly normal travelers. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2018 : 23:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Found it
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19353
Ah.
Well, technically, The Hooded One only winked and confirmed your musings about Ilehhune/Hune/Hhune and "Gargauth's bid for freedom", which I presume means that when Gargauth was trapped in the pit below Peleveria, he arranged to have the rumours of an ancient undead dragon lurking in the catacombs make their way to the Cult of the Dragon, through the Shield of the Hidden Lord.
She doesn't indicate that Algashon ever knew that the information came from Gargauth or that he would have willingly served the Outcast, with whom his Dark Lord, Bane, warred after Gargauth became divine.
Also, Gargauth was trapped below Peleveria before he became even a demipower. He was an exiled baatezu lord during the battle at the Sign of the Silver Harp, which happened after 1022 DR and had at that point in time just recently escaped from his imprisonment. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Aug 2018 23:45:23 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 00:13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not doubting you, but from where do we know that Sammaster brought back Algashon Nathaire? Was it in the novels about the dragon rage or something?
The re-animated Algashon Nathaire's role as the First Interpreter in the ruling triumvirate of the Cult is pretty prominent in the parts about the Cult of the Dragon in Dragons of Faerun, which you quote below.
quote:
Dragons of Faerun p. 54
Before his own destruction, Sammaster secretly brought Algashon Nathaire back from the dead as a Banelich.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, and interestingly, they made Algashon a mage-priest in 3.5e. From dragons of Faerun
In the Year of the Flamedance (865 DR), Algashon Nathaire,
a powerful mystic theurge in the service of Bane, ingratiated
himself with Sammaster, and the two began to work together.
Actually, Algashon was a mage-priest in 2e. See his stats in Cult of the Dragon.
Dragons of Faerun consistently misspells his name and his 3.5 stats there do not include any of his former arcane abilities. DoF also says that Algashon "has begun to hear the whispers of Gargauth once more", but in the history of the Cult, it was the enemies of Algashon and his attempts to bring the Cult under the influence of Bane who heard the whispers of Gargauth.
Algashon was slain fighting Tuelhelva Drakewings and other cultists influenced by Gargauth and opposed to the Cult of the Dragon becoming a Banite order, but I haven't yet found a source that indicates that Algashon Nathaire ever wavered from the sincere worship of Bane in his life.
GOTCHA... ok, they spelled his name Algashon in some areas and Alagshon in others. That's why I didn't find the entry saying he'd been returned.
Also, yes, he was indeed a dual-classed mage-priest in 2nd edition according to CotD page 13. He kept being referred to as simply a priest of Bane in other things, so it made it confusing.
At this time, Algashon could be considered as follows:
Algashon Nathaire (hm M8/P14 of Bane):
I think I can explain the whispers of Gargauth statement. Basically, it was Gargauth who whispered in Algashon's ear, lying to him about what Tuelhalva Drakewings was doing down in Peleveran (Gargauth told Algashon that Tuelhalva had murdered a powerful undead dragon, which brought the ire of the Cult down on Peleveran). So, you don't need to worry about him "wavering" in his worship of Bane, its just he had someone lying to him.
Also, interestingly, in DoF, it does give a little more info on Mourktar which does seem to indicate that the founder of the cult there was a loyalist of Algashon, but not necessarily Algashon himself. I still find it very interesting that Gargauth was released after a 17 year long ritual, Tchazzar ascended to divinity, Alasklerbanbastos embraced dracolichdom, and a dragon rage all occurred at that time. Its too coincidental to not somehow be related. I half wonder if Tchazzar and Gargauth weren't in cahoots somehow, and in return for aiding his freedom, Gargauth agreed to sponsor Tchazzar's rise to divinity. HOW he might have done so could be worth perusing. Maybe even the ritual somehow drew power from the dracorage mythal to help fuel Gargauth's release and/or Tchazzar's ascension..... maybe it even somehow channeled the deaths of many dragons??? Just throwing some ideas against the wall here.
DoF page 55
Mourktar Cell
Founded in the Year of the Pillaged Crypt (1005 DR) by a follower of Algashon, the Mourktar Cell achieved early success by convincing Alasklerbanbastos (see Chapter 1) to embrace dracolichdom in the wake of Tchazzar’s apparent ascension to divinity. The Mourktar cell has since moved its base to the Great Bone Wyrm’s lair beneath Dragonback Mountain but is still very active in Mourktar and the rest of Threskel, in Messemprar and occupied Unther, and to a lesser extent in eastern Chessenta.
Membership: The Mourktar cell has long been considered rather dogmatic by other cells, emphasizing devotion to the Black Lord and the collected teachings of Algashon over the teachings of Sammaster. Dragon cultists in this cell have long experimented with the creation of new forms of draconic undead, most of whom lurk within the depths of Dragonback Mountain or in large crypts beneath Mourktar and Messemprar.
Leadership: The Mourktar cell has long been ruled by Alasklerbanbastos, the Great Bone Wyrm, its first and most successful dracolich. However, for the first time in years, there is simmering tension between the Wearers of Purple and the Great Bone Wyrm, as members of the former group grow increasingly uncomfortable with their leader’s alliance of convenience with the Church of Tiamat in Unther and dismayed at recent setbacks following the return of Tchazzar.
Allies and Enemies: Most cell members are followers of Bane at the Black Lord’s Altar in Mourktar, and this cell has long operated as a secret society within the church. The Mourktar cell is nominally allied with the Church of Tiamat in occupied Unther, but this relationship is growing increasingly strained.
The Mourktar cell has long opposed the Church of Tchazzar, and the recent return of the Father of Chessenta has rekindled this ancient enmity. Since the failure of the Great Bone Wyrm’s bid for control of the Followers of the Scaly Way, the Mourktar cell has become increasingly estranged from the rest of the organization. Most other cells now consider the Mourktar cell to be in open schism.
Plots: The Mourktar cell is currently regrouping following the recent failure of its bid to install a draconic nobility in Threskel and Chessenta. Most of the nondragon members of the cell are consumed with the effort to maintain Messemprar’s independence in the face of relentless Mulhorandi expansionism, while Alasklerbanbastos and his dragon deputies work to undermine the machinations of Tchazzar. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Aug 2018 00:16:35 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 00:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
There were definitely two winks in separate posts.
Oh, sure. Just, you know, in the later of the two posts with winks, she was confirming speculation about Gargauth's bid for freedom, which occurred before Gargauth had even become a demipower.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just because Algashon heard the whisperings doesn't mean he knew who they were from, but he listened all the same and so has begun to listen to the whisperings of Gargauth once more because he listened a first time. A fervent worshipper he was not, but once the corruption starts it continues to spread.
Algashon died before Gargauth was anything other than baatezu lord. In fact, Algashon lived and died while Gargauth was trapped in a pit and probably never knew anything about him nor heard the name 'Gargauth'. Any whispers of Gargauth that Algashon ever heard before 1373 DR were a devil trying to corrupt a mortal, not a god trying to steal a worshipper from another god.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I do like the idea of cults and sects within cults and sects. The priests of Bane infiltrated the cult of the dragon, the cult of the dragon infiltrated the knights of the shield (or vice versa), the followers of gargauth attempted to infiltrate them all and destroyed the plots of many evil doers to gain gargauth's freedom. It nicely shows that evil often works against itself and the plot within a plot is how Ed works in his own realms.
I agree with this 100%. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 00:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I think I can explain the whispers of Gargauth statement. Basically, it was Gargauth who whispered in Algashon's ear, lying to him about what Tuelhalva Drakewings was doing down in Peleveran (Gargauth told Algashon that Tuelhalva had murdered a powerful undead dragon, which brought the ire of the Cult down on Peleveran). So, you don't need to worry about him "wavering" in his worship of Bane, its just he had someone lying to him.
Yes, that seems the most reasonable explanation.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, interestingly, in DoF, it does give a little more info on Mourktar which does seem to indicate that the founder of the cult there was a loyalist of Algashon, but not necessarily Algashon himself.
Yeah, I caught that.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I still find it very interesting that Gargauth was released after a 17 year long ritual, Tchazzar ascended to divinity, Alasklerbanbastos embraced dracolichdom, and a dragon rage all occurred at that time. Its too coincidental to not somehow be related. I half wonder if Tchazzar and Gargauth weren't in cahoots somehow, and in return for aiding his freedom, Gargauth agreed to sponsor Tchazzar's rise to divinity. HOW he might have done so could be worth perusing. Maybe even the ritual somehow drew power from the dracorage mythal to help fuel Gargauth's release and/or Tchazzar's ascension..... maybe it even somehow channeled the deaths of many dragons??? Just throwing some ideas against the wall here.
That's interesting, but the timeline is rather against Gargauth having had anything to do with Tchazzar's bid for divinity. For one thing. Tchazzar's cult started before Gargauth became even a demipower.
Gargauth was still just a bateezu while he was imprisoned in the pit, not to mention during the battle of the Sign of the Silver Harp, which happened at some point after 1022 DR and before 1122 DR (still trying to narrow the year down). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 00:41:08
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Icelander, this statement isn't true
Algashon died before Gargauth was anything other than baatezu lord. In fact, Algashon lived and died while Gargauth was trapped in a pit and probably never knew anything about him nor heard the name 'Gargauth'. Any whispers of Gargauth that Algashon ever heard before 1373 DR were a devil trying to corrupt a mortal, not a god trying to steal a worshipper from another god.
I state this because of this from Powers and Pantheons which discusses Peleveran and Gargauth
It would take nearly seventeen years for Tuelhalva to gather the resources and personal power to enact the ritual required to free Gargauth from the Dark Pit of Maleficence. There are those who believe that this is because Gargauth himself had been entrapped in the Wells of Darkness himself that this casting was so complex. The truth of this matter is unclear, but what is known is that in 1018 DR, Gargauth was freed from the Dark Pit of Maleficence, and upon becoming free he summoned a horde of hellspawn to serve Tuelhalva in seizing the throne of Peleveran. As Peleveran fell to the armies of baatezu, the great fiend of the pit flew north, whispering lies of Tuelhalva destroying an ancient undead dragon king he had found in the ears of the leadership of the Cult of the Dragon. Within a month of Tuelhalva's coronation, a Rage of Dragons descended on Peleveran, and when it passed not a trace of that nation nor Tuelhalva remained.
I actually also put some other pieces together from Demihuman Deities which seems to match up ROUGHLY with Tuelhalva seeking an undead dragon in 1001 DR and the discovery of a ghost dragon by dwarven priests of Abbathor the same year. I wrote this up in another thread almost a year ago today. The portions that are canon are the priests of Abbathor, the name of the ghost dragon, the year being 1001 DR, and Tuelhalva Drakewings being sent to discover an "ancient undead dragon". It should be noted as well that this dragon that the Abbathorans had found was actually killed by no less than an avatar of Abbathor.
Soon afterward, news of a ghost dragon named Ragflaconshen which had been discovered by priests of Abbathor was being sent to the cult of the dragon. However, the messenger somehow totally confused the information on the location, which was beneath the Turnback mountains north of the Tortured Lands near Anauroch, and instead reported that the ghost dragon was in the city of Peleveran. There are those who believe that Gargauth caused this misinformation in order to lure Tuelhalva Drakewings to to the Dark Pit of Maleficence, which is believed to have ties to the wells of darkness in the abyss. One of the dwarven priests was a priest-binder who it was said habitually formed a pact with the dwarven vestige, Aym, Queen of Avarice. It is thought that Gargauth's connection to Astaroth, himself a vestige after Gargauth defeated him, somehow enabled Gargauth to obtain information on the actions of the priests via the vestige of Aym. If this is true, then Gargauth has access to a powerful source of information gathering that few others have even begun to contemplate. Using other resources, which are unclear at this time, he either altered the memory of the location in the messenger of the Cult of the Dragon, coerced the individual to change the story, or was capable of seizing control of the individual even from within his entrapment, and thus it was the Tuelhalva Drakewings found himself in the capital city of Peleveran and seeking out the Dark Pit of Maleficence.
Just to aid the discussion along, here's that entry from Demihuman Deities in the Abbathor section
Major Centers of Worship: Aefarn, the House of Gold, is a fortified temple complex housing much of the collected wealth of Abbathor's clergy. The temple is located deep beneath Turnback Mountain, the southernmost peak of a mountain range of similar name running north-south along the eastern border of Anauroch and north of the frozen steppes known as the Tortured Land. The treasure vaults of the Hands of Greed are located in a cavern complex hewn millennia ago from the surrounding granite by the great red wyrm Ragflaconshen, Spawn of Mahatnartorian, before he died defending his hoard from the avaricious Abbathor. In the Year of the Wailing Winds (1000 DR), a trio of Abbathoran priests stumbled across the wyrm's long-hidden lair after following a trail of gold coins placed - or so they suspected - by the Great Master of Greed.
After an arduous adventure bypassing the long-dead wyrm's many traps, the three priests finally penetrated Ragflaconshen's inner sanctum early in the Year of the Awakening (1001 DR). There they discovered that the great wyrm had survived, after a fashion, as a ghost dragon, his spirit unable to rest until his fabulous horde was replaced in kind. The Trove Lord then appeared to the three priests in a vision and directed them to muster the faithful (along with their personal hoards) scattered throughout the Cold Lands - the territory loosely incorporating the lands between the Moonsea, Anauroch, and the Great Glacier - in the ghost dragon's lair. This mass assemblage of treasure would allow the spirit of the Trove Lord's ancient antagonist and kindred spirit in greed to rest at last. When this was done, Abbathor appeared to his assembled worshipers in avatar form and directed them, under the leadership of the Three Coinlords (as the trio was thereafter known), to build a temple honoring him. This structure would house the assembled trove of treasure (possibly the most valuable to ever exist in the Realms), as well as all new wealth that its clergy acquired in the wider world. In the nearly four centuries since the founding of Aefarn, the caverns that make up the House of Gold have been entirely covered with gold leaf and studded with precious gems. The three seniormost priests of the temple compose the ruling triumvirate (still named for its founders), although Abbathor's assembled priests work collectively to defend the House of Gold from interlopers. Each priest has his own heavily trapped set of chambers in which his personal share of the temple's wealth is hoarded. Thus those seeking to plunder the House of Gold find themselves faced with innumerable smaller fortresses in addition to the formidable collective defenses. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 00:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Icelander, this statement isn't true
Algashon died before Gargauth was anything other than baatezu lord. In fact, Algashon lived and died while Gargauth was trapped in a pit and probably never knew anything about him nor heard the name 'Gargauth'. Any whispers of Gargauth that Algashon ever heard before 1373 DR were a devil trying to corrupt a mortal, not a god trying to steal a worshipper from another god.
I state this because of this from Powers and Pantheons which discusses Peleveran and Gargauth
It would take nearly seventeen years for Tuelhalva to gather the resources and personal power to enact the ritual required to free Gargauth from the Dark Pit of Maleficence. There are those who believe that this is because Gargauth himself had been entrapped in the Wells of Darkness himself that this casting was so complex. The truth of this matter is unclear, but what is known is that in 1018 DR, Gargauth was freed from the Dark Pit of Maleficence, and upon becoming free he summoned a horde of hellspawn to serve Tuelhalva in seizing the throne of Peleveran. As Peleveran fell to the armies of baatezu, the great fiend of the pit flew north, whispering lies of Tuelhalva destroying an ancient undead dragon king he had found in the ears of the leadership of the Cult of the Dragon. Within a month of Tuelhalva's coronation, a Rage of Dragons descended on Peleveran, and when it passed not a trace of that nation nor Tuelhalva remained.
What?
Algashon died in 1018 DR, fighting Tuelhalva Drakewings in the skies above Peleveria, after disinformation spread by Gargauth had turned two factions of the Cult of the Dragon against each other.
Gargauth did not became a demipower until after the battle at the Sign of the Silver Harp, which happened sometime between 1022-1121 DR, i.e. during the first century of the existence of the Harpers. And after escaping the pit in 1018 DR, Gargauth was known to Banites in the 11th century as the wild baatezu 'Gargoth', not as a deity or any kind of divine entity.
Basically, before the Harpstars War, the history of Gargauth is the history of a devil lord, not a deity. And I don't know how long Gargauth spent trapped in the pit under Peleverian, but from the sound of things, I wouldn't be surprised if he had been trapped there for centuries, i.e. the entire lifetime of Algashon.
Algashon 'heard the whispers of Gargauth', but he had no idea that these false rumours were coming from someone named Gargauth or that this Gargauth would become a deity after Algashon died. If Algashon ever met Gargauth*, he probably met him in disguise as a human, under a false name. Even if he met him in devil form, at some point during that 'less than a month' that Algashon and Gargauth spent on Toril at the same time, Algashon would have known him as the 'wild baatezu Gargoth', not as his later true self, under whose name he ascended to divinity, Gargauth, the Hidden Lord.
*Which I doubt he did. Much more effective and devious for Gargauth to appear in his dreams taking the form of divine messages from Bane. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Aug 2018 08:47:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 00:55:55
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Hmmmm, and regarding your statements of Gargauth not being a divinity until later.... could it be that the 17 year long ritual that freed Gargauth from the pit actually did so by STRIPPING him of his divinity? Maybe it was in fact this divinity that Tchazzar somehow gathered to enable his own rise? Maybe he was even working in cahoots with Tiamat to steal Gargauth's divinity?
Hmmm, that ghost dragon who was SOOOOO greedy (Ragflaconshen) that even after Abbathor killed him he stayed behind as a ghost dragon.... makes me wonder if this wasn't a priest of Astilabor, and the reason Abbathor killed him was to actually weaken the draconic goddess of greed. Not necessary mind you, but has some added intrigue. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 01:01:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmmm, and regarding your statements of Gargauth not being a divinity until later.... could it be that the 17 year long ritual that freed Gargauth from the pit actually did so by STRIPPING him of his divinity? Maybe it was in fact this divinity that Tchazzar somehow gathered to enable his own rise? Maybe he was even working in cahoots with Tiamat to steal Gargauth's divinity?
Uh, why would you think that Gargauth had ever been divine before Powers and Pantheons states that he 'became a demipower in his own right'?
What is there about Gargauth that makes you feel that he had ever had divine power before he attained it in the 11th century?
Am I missing a source somewhere? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 01:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Icelander, this statement isn't true
Algashon died before Gargauth was anything other than baatezu lord. In fact, Algashon lived and died while Gargauth was trapped in a pit and probably never knew anything about him nor heard the name 'Gargauth'. Any whispers of Gargauth that Algashon ever heard before 1373 DR were a devil trying to corrupt a mortal, not a god trying to steal a worshipper from another god.
I state this because of this from Powers and Pantheons which discusses Peleveran and Gargauth
It would take nearly seventeen years for Tuelhalva to gather the resources and personal power to enact the ritual required to free Gargauth from the Dark Pit of Maleficence. There are those who believe that this is because Gargauth himself had been entrapped in the Wells of Darkness himself that this casting was so complex. The truth of this matter is unclear, but what is known is that in 1018 DR, Gargauth was freed from the Dark Pit of Maleficence, and upon becoming free he summoned a horde of hellspawn to serve Tuelhalva in seizing the throne of Peleveran. As Peleveran fell to the armies of baatezu, the great fiend of the pit flew north, whispering lies of Tuelhalva destroying an ancient undead dragon king he had found in the ears of the leadership of the Cult of the Dragon. Within a month of Tuelhalva's coronation, a Rage of Dragons descended on Peleveran, and when it passed not a trace of that nation nor Tuelhalva remained.
What?
Algashon died in 1018 DR.
Gargauth did not became a demipower until after the battle at the Sign of the Silver Harp, which happened sometime between 1022-1121 DR, i.e. during the first century of the existence of the Harpers. And after escaping the pit in 1018 DR, Gargauth was known to Banites in the 11th century as the wild baatezu 'Gargoth', not as a deity or any kind of divine entity.
Basically, before the Harpstars War, the history of Gargauth is the history of a devil lord, not a deity. And I don't know how long Gargauth spent trapped in the pit under Peleverian, but from the sound of things, I wouldn't be surprised if he had been trapped there for centuries, i.e. the entire lifetime of Algashon.
Algashon 'heard the whispers of Gargauth', but he had no idea that these false rumours were coming from someone named Gargauth or that this Gargauth would become a deity after Algashon died.
No, I meant the part where you said that Algashon lived and died while Gargauth was trapped in a pit and probably never knew anything about him nor heard the name 'Gargauth'
Algashon clearly didn't die until he came to Peleveran. He didn't come to Peleveran until Gargauth was freed and flew to the north whispering lies "to the leadership of the Cult of the Dragon".
As to whether he was or wasn't a divine power upon being freed, in the other thread I showed that him being stripped of his divinity may have been what freed him, and perhaps later he gathered the divinity of someone/something else. This may have aided the ascension of Tchazzar. It could have also have been some kind of machination of Tiamat, since she's also a lord of hell.
I'll also note in all of this convoluted stuff involving Abbathor, possibly Astilabor, etc.... what was Gargauth noted as? A treasurer in hell (see dungeon 148 entry for astaroth).... and he's also related to a story of Astaroth who was in a dwarven citadel turning everything he touched into gold. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 01:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
No, I meant the part where you said that Algashon lived and died while Gargauth was trapped in a pit and probably never knew anything about him nor heard the name 'Gargauth'
Algashon clearly didn't die until he came to Peleveran. He didn't come to Peleveran until Gargauth was freed and flew to the north whispering lies "to the leadership of the Cult of the Dragon".
As noted above, during the less than thirty days that Algashon and Gargauth have both been alive and on Toril at the same time, there is no reason to assume that Algashon ever heard his name.
It's unlikely in the extreme that the Hidden Lord, as a newly freed baatezu lord loose on Toril for the first time in a long time, immediately started telling people the truth of his name and nature. He manipulated the upper leadership of the Cult of the Dragon at the start of the 11th century DR and he made contacts with Banites in Sembia at a similar time, but to the Banites, he pretended to be a 'wild baatezu' named 'Gargoth' and I imagine that when he spread disinformation to the Cult, he used many different guises, names and other deception.
Basically, the Hidden Lord had zero reason to tell anyone his true name or reveal his true nature, back in 1018 DR, while Algashon was alive. At that time, he wasn't a deity with worshippers, he was an exiled devil lord. It's even possible that the name 'Gargauth' was never known or used by anyone in Faerun until at some point well after 1022 DR, as part of the ascension of Gargauth to divinity, as 'Gargoth' may have been the name Gargauth answered to as an archdevil and the later name invented as part of a scheme to become a Faerunian deity.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to whether he was or wasn't a divine power upon being freed, in the other thread I showed that him being stripped of his divinity may have been what freed him, and perhaps later he gathered the divinity of someone/something else. This may have aided the ascension of Tchazzar. It could have also have been some kind of machination of Tiamat, since she's also a lord of hell.
Tchazzar became a demipower and then Tiamat devoured him and worship of those in Tchazzar's cult was routed to Tiamat. Then Tchazzar returned to Faerun in the waning days of 1373 DR, as a servant of Tiamat. That sounds a lot like Tiamat sponsored his ascension. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'll also note in all of this convoluted stuff involving Abbathor, possibly Astilabor, etc.... what was Gargauth noted as? A treasurer in hell (see dungeon 148 entry for astaroth).... and he's also related to a story of Astaroth who was in a dwarven citadel turning everything he touched into gold.
Sure, I guess the history of Gargauth as an outcast lord of hell might have some convoluted connection to Abbathor, the dwarven god of Greed, but I'm really at a loss to imagine how Gargauth's possible connections with Abbathor have anything to do with the subject of this thread and the Cult of the Dragon. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Aug 2018 08:53:12 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 02:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmmm, and regarding your statements of Gargauth not being a divinity until later.... could it be that the 17 year long ritual that freed Gargauth from the pit actually did so by STRIPPING him of his divinity? Maybe it was in fact this divinity that Tchazzar somehow gathered to enable his own rise? Maybe he was even working in cahoots with Tiamat to steal Gargauth's divinity?
Uh, why would you think that Gargauth had ever been divine before Powers and Pantheons states that he 'became a demipower in his own right'?
What is there about Gargauth that makes you feel that he had ever had divine power before he attained it in the 11th century?
Am I missing a source somewhere?
I'm not so much stuck on him being "divine" as I am that maybe he was some kind of "power source". This might have been in the form of a vestige. It may have been in the form of a power able to give warlock pacts. However, it could have also been divinity similar to how demons and devils can have cults.
There's also some oddities that surround Gargauth, Gargoth, and Astaroth (Hmmmm... Astaroth, a being that had a Midas' type touch ... Astilabor, dragon god of greed). It could even include the dwarven god Abbathor, since all of these beings are hoarders or keepers of money, etc.... Basically, Eric Boyd's adventure "Wells of Darkness" documents that Astaroth is "trapped in the Wells of Darkness". It kind of makes me feel like Astaroth and Gargauth were somehow "split", and Astaroth was left trapped. Given that Gargauth was trapped in the Pit of Maleficence and Astaroth is trapped in the Well of Darkness, I'd bet both are related to the place where Vestiges go. I'm not exactly sure how to spin it, but for fun's sake, let's look at the two sets of lore.
From Powers and Pantheons entry for Gargauth
Few beings in the Realms know of Gargauth's existence, but those who do dare not speak his name for fear that he may come for a visit. However, Gargauth's name (or one of his aliases) appears in a few cautionary tales of overweening pride, insatiable greed, or overwhelming lust for power among every race of the Realms. For example, the dwarves tell a tale of entitled "The Legacy of Astaroth." In that legend, a dwarf minstrel by the name of Astaroth arrived one day at the gates of a dwarven hall built above a rich vein of iron. He began to perform a variety of of showman's tricks and thoroughly enchanted the dour dwarves. The normally suspicious dwarves invited him in for the evening meal, which Astaroth graciously accepted. As their guests ate, the dwarf king and his retainers noticed that every piece of metal Astaroth came into contact with (his plate, utensils, a door knob, etc..) turned to gold. However, Astaroth seemed completely unaware of this effect. After the meal the dwarf king slyly invited Astaroth on a tour of the subterranean city. The dashing minstrel was encouraged to pick up and examine every piece of metal the dwarves could find, even touching the veins of iron not yet mined from the earth. When the minstrel finally left, the dwarves were incredibly rich - so much so, the king promptly renamed the city the Hall of Pure Gold. Within 24 hours of Astaroth's departure, a horde of orcs and giants attacked the dwarven hold. The dwarves who had held their relatively poor hold for centuries with steel found their armor, their weapons, and their defensive structures had all been transformed into very pure, soft gold. The Hall of Pure Gold fell within a fortnight, and the dwarves of that hall were completely eradicated save for one who survived to tell the tale. It is from this tale that the dwarven expression "Gold makes one rich, but steel makes one richer" is derived.
Then there's this from Dungeon 148
Astaroth: This once-powerful tanar'ri prince had a gift for prophecy that didn't warn him about Gargauth, an exiled archdevil who once served Asmodeus as Treasurer of Hell. Gargauth has since acquired the mantle of divinity, but before then, he slew Astaroth in a terrific battle. Astaroth had sealed a bargain with Ahazu to be imprisoned here when he died, (NOTE: here being the Wells of Darkness) but has not yet achieved his promised resurrection. Astaroth acquired the name "Diabolus" for his infiltration of the ranks of Hell. From time to time, Gargauth still masquerades as Astaroth, and he still maintains several cults in the fallen demon lord's name. Although the Abyss continues to try to resurrect the fallen tanar'ri prince, the ever-present hellfire in Astaroth's well ignited by Gargauth continously consumes Astaroth's reforming body
Hmmm, so one thing that does pop in my mind is "where was this dwarven hall".... it occurs to me that if the dwarves were some of the first inhabitants of what becomes the Cliffside City of Peleverai after the Great Rift collapsed and the landrise is created.... I half wonder, is this an old story, and were the dwarves gold dwarves living in Peleverai? Since they all died, this could explain humans coming along later and inhabiting a fabulous and ancient dwarven hall. Why did "Astaroth" want into the city? Did it have something to do with the Pit of Maleficence?
Hmmm, I like this idea. I just may have to rewrite something now. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Aug 2018 02:54:07 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 03:01:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
No, I meant the part where you said that Algashon lived and died while Gargauth was trapped in a pit and probably never knew anything about him nor heard the name 'Gargauth'
Algashon clearly didn't die until he came to Peleveran. He didn't come to Peleveran until Gargauth was freed and flew to the north whispering lies "to the leadership of the Cult of the Dragon".
As noted above, during the less than thirty days that Algashon and Gargauth have both been alive and on Toril at the same time, there is no reason to assume that Algashon ever heard his name.
It's unlikely in the extreme that the Lord of the Hidden Layer, as a newly freed baatezu lord loose on Toril for the first time in a long time, immediately started telling people the truth of his name and nature. He manipulated the upper leadership of the Cult of the Dragon at the start of the 11th century DR and he made contacts with Banites in Sembia at a similar time, but to the Banites, he pretended to be a 'wild baatezu' named 'Gargoth' and I imagine that when he spread disinformation to the Cult, he used many different guises, names and other deception.
Basically, the Lord of the Hidden Layer had zero reason to tell anyone his true name or reveal his true nature, back in 1018 DR, while Algashon was alive. At that time, he wasn't a deity with worshippers, he was an exiled devil lord.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to whether he was or wasn't a divine power upon being freed, in the other thread I showed that him being stripped of his divinity may have been what freed him, and perhaps later he gathered the divinity of someone/something else. This may have aided the ascension of Tchazzar. It could have also have been some kind of machination of Tiamat, since she's also a lord of hell.
Tchazzar became a demipower and then Tiamat devoured him and worship of those in Tchazzar's cult was routed to Tiamat. Then Tchazzar returned to Faerun in the waning days of 1373 DR, as a servant of Tiamat. That sounds a lot like Tiamat sponsored his ascension. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'll also note in all of this convoluted stuff involving Abbathor, possibly Astilabor, etc.... what was Gargauth noted as? A treasurer in hell (see dungeon 148 entry for astaroth).... and he's also related to a story of Astaroth who was in a dwarven citadel turning everything he touched into gold.
Sure, I guess the history of Gargauth as an outcast lord of hell might have some convoluted connection to Abbathor, the dwarven god of Greed, but I'm really at a loss to imagine how Gargauth's possible connections with Abbathor have anything to do with the subject of this thread and the Cult of the Dragon.
reread what I posted above about Abbathor and the "ghost dragon" in 1001 DR... the exact same year that Tuelhalva Drakewings is sent down to Peleverai to find some non-existent "undead dragon". Basically, I'm seeing possibly some kind of misinformation network that provides enough information to show as true, but ends up with Tuelhalva getting sent somewhere that Gargauth can latch onto him.... and all of this revolving all about dragons.... and undead ones at that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 03:10:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
reread what I posted above about Abbathor and the "ghost dragon" in 1001 DR... the exact same year that Tuelhalva Drakewings is sent down to Peleverai to find some non-existent "undead dragon". Basically, I'm seeing possibly some kind of misinformation network that provides enough information to show as true, but ends up with Tuelhalva getting sent somewhere that Gargauth can latch onto him.... and all of this revolving all about dragons.... and undead ones at that.
Yeah, I understand that, and for the record, agree that inserting false rumours into true information sounds plausible.
I just don't understand why you would bring this up in a scroll about what powerful priests might be found in the Cult of the Dragon in 1373 DR instead of one of the many scrolls that exist about the lore and history of Gargauth. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 05:17:32
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| Tchazzar's a demipower? I thought he was a quasipower; he's a great wyrm dragon ascendant 12. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 05:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Tchazzar's a demipower? I thought he was a quasipower; he's a great wyrm dragon ascendant 12.
In his current incarnation, which was brought back to life by Tiamat in 1373 DR, he's indeed something like a quasipower. In LEoF, he's listed as an one of the dead powers, which implies that at some point before Tiamat ate him, he reached at least demipower status. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 08:27:00
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| "The Lord of the Hidden Layer" is Eltab, not Gargauth |
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Topic |
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Cult of the Dragon and Priests in 1373 DR
