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Feastus Darkmind
Acolyte
Finland
2 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 12:59:20
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Oh, I seek the knowledge on my guestion. Please old ones, help.
How can you say that for example drow are usually evil?
It looks that most of they are murderers and robbers, but what do they think on themselves? Are they on their own mind pure chaotic? Do they feel sad killing.. answer is NO! They like it... but only good people think they are evil and drows might think that noble people are evil... simple... isn't it???
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 13:10:29
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If only  .
Life, and one's perception of it, has never been that black and white.
Morals, beliefs and cultural evolution all play their part in shaping a society. Whether these societies are inherently good or evil, is the result of a multitude of influencing factors. The Drow follow Lolth, and she preaches Chaos. The society of the drow is shaped by their pursuit of chaos. But that is only a small part of a larger whole. Look into how the drow were first treated around the time of the early Crown Wars. Look to how their perceptions on elven society were shaped by those they onced deemed brothers. This also contributed to the current drow outlook.
Nothing is ever clear cut, especially in D&D.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 14:37:38
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But in general, drow's actions are 'evil' to all 'good' races.
However, what makes the difference between good and evil? If you think you're doing the right thing, can you be judged by others who disagree? And that is how drow propably see it. They are so used to it that they don't think it as evil. Of course there are those few among the drow that recognize drow actions as truly evil (Drizzt for example).
And BTW, that Crown Wars thing got totally out of hand! Creating the High Moor and all that... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 14:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Feastus Darkmind
Oh, I seek the knowledge on my guestion. Please old ones, help.
How can you say that for example drow are usually evil?
It looks that most of they are murderers and robbers, but what do they think on themselves? Are they on their own mind pure chaotic? Do they feel sad killing.. answer is NO! They like it... but only good people think they are evil and drows might think that noble people are evil... simple... isn't it???
Have you checked out the War of the Spider Queen series? I think the authors for this series do an excellent job of detailing three-dimensional drow characacters existing in a society that is evil. Some events in the novel series bring up the themes you mention. I find it very refreshing over other works that wish to paint characters as black or white. Black and white to me is suited for fairy tales told to children during a story hour at the local library. Realitistic situations are much more gray. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 20:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
[quote]
Have you checked out the [i]War of the Spider Queen series? I think the authors for this series do an excellent job of detailing three-dimensional drow characacters existing in a society that is evil. Some events in the novel series bring up the themes you mention. I find it very refreshing over other works that wish to paint characters as black or white. Black and white to me is suited for fairy tales told to children during a story hour at the local library. Realitistic situations are much more gray.
Frequently that’s true, that things are neither all black are all white, but some times pure evil exist. History is replete with such examples, such that no rational person would fail to see the evil for what it is.
An example from the real world illistrates this;
1932 Holocaust of 7 million innocent people, in one year.
“In 1932, Stalin launched his most deadly blow yet against the peasantry, and especially against the peasantry of the Ukraine and adjoining grain-growing areas, which had been most militant in resisting the collectivization drive. He refused to accept that productivity had gone down and, on the basis of wholly invented figures, demanded grain deliveries larger that the total crop. This ruthlessly enforces, and the result was, in many ways, the greatest known tragedy of the century. Certainly not fewer than five million, and more probably at lest seven million, died of starvation over the winter.” [Stalin Breaker of Nations, Robert Conquest, 1991 p. 163]
In fantasy, understanding how people react, their causality, and their motivations, it is sometimes useful to look at reality.
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 21:06:40
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Good and evil, Darkness and light. Tis all a matter of opinion really. I like the drow by nature and creed, but seek another in place as favorite as there seems to be a growing number of drow that mimic a certain dual Scimitar wielding fool... But that is simply my view of him. To others he is a beacon of what should be... Far too many already like the drow, so I seek another race Deemed 'evil' by the 'good' races that has a less popular fan base... like Gnolls or Kobolds....
However (before I begin to ramble too much) the main difference between the surfacers and Drow is that If thee can do something and get away with it then it should be done, but if you get caught thou art an idiot and deserve thy fate for, not the attempt but getting caught. The drow are far more practical and efficient than many surface dwelling races. Good and evil are just a general scale. Law and Chaos seem to hold more actual sway than good and evil. After all Good and evil must be decided upon by something more powerful (In the realm's case, Overgod Ao) where as Law and Chaos are much more easier to measure.
Going to spot... Stop here, head hurt from write... But how did that sying go? " You kill one, it is a tragedy; you kill ten million, it is a statistic" Wasn't it? |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 14 Apr 2004 21:08:59 |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 21:33:01
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| Though some of the drow are truly evil, especially the clergy of Lolth, most are more amoral than immoral. Lacking clear-cut notions of right and wrong, they live their lives based on what is practical at the moment. Even that view is skewed by the chaotic teachings of their goddess. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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zhentar reborn
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 02:45:22
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Question: A Harper scout is caught in Zhentil Keep and executed immediately.
Same day, a Zhentarim spy is uncovered in Cormyr and executed.
Depending on which side of the Dales you're from you would look at one as an evil act and the other as a job well done.
Just remember the wisdom of Obi-wan Kenobi on points of view and all good and evil becomes kinda grey.
Please don't revoke my membership for the Kenobi reference, I'm an idiot!! |
Think what you've always thought, and you'll be what you've always been. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 03:47:42
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| zhentar, that example you made was pretty good. However, the actions of a Harper spy is different from a Zhentarim spy. For example, the Harper might be at Zhentil Keep finding information on Fzoul or learning how to foil another Zhentarim plot. The Zhentarim spy might be in Cormyr to create chaos and assassinate a member of the Obarskyr family. It's not really the tasks themselves that define good and evil, but the intentions. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 05:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
[purple] I like the drow by nature and creed, but seek another in place as favorite as there seems to be a growing number of drow that mimic a certain dual Scimitar wielding fool...
Thank you Sir Cardinal. For some time now, I'm not going to be able to read a reference to OSA Drizzt without picturing him in a fool's outfit. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 06:22:02
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Well, why do you think this period is referred to as "The Year of the Drow"? After the escapades of Drizzt, it has influenced more drows to act like him and give up their evil ways.
BTW, I like Drizzt Do'Urden, but I don't know why people give him so much credit for abandoning his House and leaving Menzoberrazan. The church of Elistraee existed before, did it not? That means there were good drows before Drizzt already... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 06:31:00
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, why do you think this period is referred to as "The Year of the Drow"? After the escapades of Drizzt, it has influenced more drows to act like him and give up their evil ways.
It did? In what product/novel? |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 08:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
zhentar, that example you made was pretty good. However, the actions of a Harper spy is different from a Zhentarim spy. For example, the Harper might be at Zhentil Keep finding information on Fzoul or learning how to foil another Zhentarim plot. The Zhentarim spy might be in Cormyr to create chaos and assassinate a member of the Obarskyr family. It's not really the tasks themselves that define good and evil, but the intentions.
Very good thoughts, zhentar and DDH, and I can certainly see the viewpoint on this. However, in your explanation DDH, the goal of each party is the same - "remove the leader of the opposition". Each party sees the other as a threat and therefore must be dealt with. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 13:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, why do you think this period is referred to as "The Year of the Drow"? After the escapades of Drizzt, it has influenced more drows to act like him and give up their evil ways.
The Year of the Drow was in 2002.
I'd also like to echo Sirius Black's question - Where was this influence on other Drow mentioned?.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 15:25:37
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Black, reading 1000 Orcs and the Lone Drow. The four drow characters that come to the surface are different from the average people of their race. Yes, they are evil, but they actually trust each other and depend on each other. Many drows, even from cities other than Menzo, have heard of Drizzt and they have escaped to the surface to join as followers of Elistraee.
Also, in the War of the Spider Queen series, the drow characters (except for Quenthel and Jeggred), the characters don't act like the drows that we have always read about and portrayed. They show signs of compassion, friendship and many feelings that drows are not supposed to have.
Rad, about the "leader of the opposition" thing, like I said, it's the intention, not the actions itself. Fzoul Chembyrl is an evil man who causes chaos and tyranny in the Realms. King Azoun is a person who has helped his kingdom and sacrificed his life to save the many Cormyreans. Killing Fzoul is not an evil act, but killing Azoun is. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 15:30:19
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Ahh . . . that explains it then. I haven't read those novels yet  .
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 15:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Black, reading 1000 Orcs and the Lone Drow. The four drow characters that come to the surface are different from the average people of their race. Yes, they are evil, but they actually trust each other and depend on each other. Many drows, even from cities other than Menzo, have heard of Drizzt and they have escaped to the surface to join as followers of Elistraee.
And Mr. Salvatore states this within his novel, that "many drows, even from cities other than Menzo, have heard of Drizzt and they have escaped to the surface to join as followers of Elistraee?" That fact is quite surprising as to my knowledge, in the last novel, R.A. Salvatore simply had a character make a reference to Drizzt of Eilistraee.
quote:
Also, in the War of the Spider Queen series, the drow characters (except for Quenthel and Jeggred), the characters don't act like the drows that we have always read about and portrayed. They show signs of compassion, friendship and many feelings that drows are not supposed to have.
But, where is Drizzt's influence there? He has never been mentioned in the series once to my knowledge. I chalk up what you just described in the above quote as authors finally portraying three-dimensional characters.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2004 : 02:33:05
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| No, no, no. Sirius, you seem to mistaken my post. The reference to the Hunter's Blade trilogy and the WotSQ series was to kinda point out the change in the drows. Back when RAS first wrote about drows, they were all cold-hearted and ruthless. Nowadays, the novels that involves drows all had them to show moments of compassion and things that they do to seperate themselves from the truly evil in FR. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2004 : 03:47:22
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Indeed, nothing is all black or all white (things would be perfect if they were). Or on the other hand Things either are or aren't. Drow? Evil simply because they commit evil acts, good reason or no. But then all would be judged evil on general principle.... so Either it's judges as Are or Are not, OR it's all kinda grey with good, bad... and 'the guy with the gunne'  |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2004 : 08:16:58
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| Ah, but remember, in D&D "good" and "evil" are far from relative. With all the spiritual forces, things are far less gray than here on Earth, where we're left to our own devices as far as conduct is concerned. That is -- speaking sociologically here, not theologically! -- these concepts are defined by humans. It used to be that slavery wasn't considered evil by a majority of the population of the world. Now it is. In D&D, though, the concepts of evil rarely change, even over the hundreds of Millennia. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 01:21:53
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Good vs Evil... depends on many factors such as percepton, culture, society, personality and morality. Religion also plays a role. The dark elves of Menozzebrran (oh I know, can't spell) have a chaotic nature because most of them worship the Spider Queen, a god of chaos. To keep things in chaos, most dark elves are forced into the evil alignment for survival - to kill or be killed. Power and greed also play a role here.
Drizzt never thought of the dark elves as being evil as a whole (being one himself), just the power hungry matron mothers and the Spider Queen's followers.
People that kill never really think of themselves as evil, in their mind they always have a distorted view of reality. Their actions however are viewed as good or evil by others, eg a adventurer goes out to kill a Lich on a quest. Liches are generally portrayed as evil undead that creates strife in their neighbours lives. To the neighbours the adventurer would be viewed as good because s/he would be doing them a favour by killing the Lich. To the Lich, the adventurer would be viewed as not quite evil but possibly bad because here the Lich is minding his own business and the adventurer breaks into his home to kill him and possibly steal the Lich's lifetime of work (accumulated treasures). So who's the bad one here? The adventurer getting rid of the Lich or the homeowner defending him/herself from attack and burgulary? |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Aesgereth
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 12:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
zhentar, that example you made was pretty good. However, the actions of a Harper spy is different from a Zhentarim spy. For example, the Harper might be at Zhentil Keep finding information on Fzoul or learning how to foil another Zhentarim plot. The Zhentarim spy might be in Cormyr to create chaos and assassinate a member of the Obarskyr family. It's not really the tasks themselves that define good and evil, but the intentions.
In both examples, the main intention seems to be to bring a powerful political figure low...
...Which indeed makes both sides questionable, depending on what side you stand on
It is always a matter of perspective...
...Unless a rampaging demon tosses fireballs all over town, or a paladin sacrifices himself for the better good
And...
...The Zentharim is mainly lawful evil, so, I doubt they would be out to actively cause chaos |
"Lady of Loss, I call upon thy dread name to cloak my motives and mind in a tangled web of engulfing darkness!" |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 20:05:58
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| Didn't you read over my post? The outcome of the actions define whether they are good or not! Yes, they both want to take out the political leaders, but each for different reasons. Zhentarims are doing it so they could take over Cormyr and rule in tyranny. The Cormyreans are doing it so they could free Zhentil Keep's citizens and also the people in the rest of the Realms from danger. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 20:35:10
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Ah, but with freedom come responsibility, and sometimes the life of a loyal and thus well treated slave or servant is far better than most freemen. Zhent, Cormyr, Thayian, Waterdavian, all are actually equal. Who are they to decide what is and is not good for the other people or the realms in general. As for reducing danger to the realms, "The only future peace has to offer is war". Sometimes freedom is not all it's cracked up to be and tyranny (or atleast a very controling Leadership) is required, sometimes it isn't. It's all relative, as We've said. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Aesgereth
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 20:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Didn't you read over my post? The outcome of the actions define whether they are good or not! Yes, they both want to take out the political leaders, but each for different reasons. Zhentarims are doing it so they could take over Cormyr and rule in tyranny. The Cormyreans are doing it so they could free Zhentil Keep's citizens and also the people in the rest of the Realms from danger.
Yea, I did...
..Still, however, I think such actions would be defined as "gray-areas"
After all, even if the Harper succeeds, there is no telling if an even worse tyrant seizes the opportunity, and maybe even starts ritual sacrifices as a daily practice, and squanders the whole nation's wealth, making it worse for both the Zentharims, as well as their slaves...
...Also, there is the risk of complete failure, which may increase the Zentharim's chance of success, amongst other things
Nothing can be forsee...
...And, it could be quite likely the Zentharim also thought that they would "free the people" (Not as in Freedom, but, as in a better place to live, overall), by uniting them under Bane
Definitively a gray-area, IMO |
"Lady of Loss, I call upon thy dread name to cloak my motives and mind in a tangled web of engulfing darkness!" |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 02:41:14
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| Well, that's another thing. Anything's possible but that's not the discussion right now. It's really just about justifying whether the assassination idea would be good or evil. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Who is good and who is evil???
