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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 14:27:07
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I know FR is based on a mostly medeival world and therefore the death penalty would be common, but it would seem to me that if any municipality in the Realms would have outlawed the death penalty (and corporal punishment in general) it would be Silverymoon. Can someone help me on this? Have you ever read/seen/heard of someone being executed in Silverymoon? If not, do you specifically know if the death penalty is outlawed?
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You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE.  |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 17:06:08
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Nothing officially written I found in the silverymoon netbook and frcs
but in my opinion they can execute people time to time if the convicts have done sth very severe against silverymoon.
The knight in silver hunt monsters everywhere around silverymoon that are 3 days ride away and shining hosts protect the settlements in marches.
If the criminals resist knights might not be very willing to take them to court alive. But in court there will be justice without any doubt.
They can forgive but never forget that s why eventhough you save your head, you would be always watched probably with powerful wards of silverymoon and you would stuck there for a long time until they decide you are completely tamed or if it s a little theft and noone is hurt you would be expected to give what you took back or cover the lose of the victim after that you would be kicked out of silverymoon.
Public executions are very rare and I think maybe one would be a historical event so they might not prefer unnecesery blodshed unless you menage to kill Alustriel or any one of the other popular and beloved symbols the gem of the north :)))).
If you kill someone without any acceptable cause you would be sent to prison or mines for along hard time instead of killing you in front of the star court.
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 17:27:07
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That’s a good question, most likely they would have a death penalty, most countries that have to face constant warfare and destruction, tend to have few reservations in using extreme sanctions. Whether do to the nature of their civilization, they use it openly, or use it as ‘targeted assignations’, or as ‘accidental deaths while in custody’, is just as likely as the open use of capital punishment.
Even today many countries that do not have a death penalty do reserve the option during times of war or for treason.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 17:45:33
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But there is difference between texas and silverymoon
silverymoon is the heir of myth drannor and the center of culture
But I m not saying thre aren t any execution, but it is not preferable. They possibly don't have a Gallow's pole.
They don't have a constitution and there is no special policy written.
The executions are probably High Mages call as I said he would prefer other options in many cases. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 18:04:28
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| I think Silverymoon does have a death penalty, but it's probably restricted to just really severe crimes like treason or an assassination on a high-goverment official (Ex. Alustriel). However, I expect Silverymoon to most likely give criminals lienency and just kick them out of the city instead. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 18:18:01
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| Though I tend to agree with DDH_101, there is also the possibility of magical punishment. Some sort of geas against lawbreaking could be applied, or another mind-influencing spell. With so many wizards and clerics in the city, the ways to punish someoone are almost unlimited. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
Edited by - Sourcemaster2 on 09 Apr 2004 18:50:33 |
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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 20:37:08
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| Thanks for the replies everyone. The specific charge I am wondering about is treason - in this case consorting with drow and possibly spying for them. He hasn't directly taken anyone's life though - still think this is punishable by death? |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 20:42:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
But there is difference between texas and silverymoon
silverymoon is the heir of myth drannor and the center of culture
But I m not saying thre aren t any execution, but it is not preferable. They possibly don't have a Gallow's pole.
They don't have a constitution and there is no special policy written.
The executions are probably High Mages call as I said he would prefer other options in many cases.
Silverymoon gets more snow than Texas, and its women can’t be as lovely!
But the better comparison to Silverymoon, would probably be Israel, it has only used the Death Penalty once, but Shin Beth (Israeli interior security services) most likely removes ‘problems’ quietly without public notice.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 20:43:42
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What did s/he did for drow?
no killing no execution I think but if that treachery had a very important role of destroying silverymoon and s/he knew why s/he was doing that particular job that might mean execution unless other means of politics and military strategies interfere. |
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Teflon
Seeker
60 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 20:45:53
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quote:
Thanks for the replies everyone. The specific charge I am wondering about is treason - in this case consorting with drow and possibly spying for them. He hasn't directly taken anyone's life though - still think this is punishable by death?
I wouldnt punish him by death, only a sort of banishment out of the kingdom. |
In any battle, the mightiest weapon is one that strikes unseen.
A Warrior or Wizard may be invincible in open battle, with their foes before them, but even they must sleep sometime, and cannot parry the knife that comes from behind.
-The life of a assassin. |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 20:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by R0GUE
Thanks for the replies everyone. The specific charge I am wondering about is treason - in this case consorting with drow and possibly spying for them. He hasn't directly taken anyone's life though - still think this is punishable by death?
Most countries at war, as Silverymoon de facto is, would punish treason with death. (Including most European countries, but not I believe Australia, who did away with the DP completely after the Boar War.)
Although, the Australian SAS would just probably drop the traitor off a C-130 over the Tasmanian Sea. |
"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
Edited by - Magic Matt on 09 Apr 2004 21:01:14 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 22:07:33
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Roewyn, the death penalty can be applied even if there wasn't any killing. Let me make an example with the laws of Waterdeep. In Waterdeep, announcing or pretending to be a Lord will automatically mean an execution for the person.
As for the case ROGUE was talking about, death penalty wouldn't be used. The person would probably be banished from the city and will be killed onsight if spotted in the area again. To prove my point, I will use another example, this one from Cormyr. In Cormy: A Novel, King Azoun and his two Barons were attacked by an automaton sent by several ambitious Cormyrean nobles. Only the main conspirators were killed. The others were all banished from Cormyr and they all made their way to Westgate. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 22:27:15
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| I think I'm inclined to agree that a banishment is a more appropriate punishment. Just wish their was some precedent for this. |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE. |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 23:43:19
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Yeah, you are right DDH_101
I remembered that incident when you remind me
"An attempted assassination of King Azoun IV of Cormyr is foiled, and many treacherous nobles are exiled from Cormyr. Some disgraced members of House Bleth and House Cormaeril emigrate to Westgate, quickly establishing themselves as important members of Westgate's merchant nobility thanks to the disarray amongst the city's older houses stemming from the events of the year before."
I guess many crimes commited by the silverymoon residents are punished that way but what effect can that punishment have on a person who have come to silverymoon just for a killing and has no intention to live there.
But Azoun wasn't killed and forgave them do you think it would be the same if he died?
I say it again they would forgive but they have limits. And it will be up to dm to decie the verdict cuz there is nt written rule and everything is up to the high mage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 00:44:30
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Give the tenor of Alustriel's rule and how Silverymoon is portrayed, I would say that the death penalty doesn't exist there. A comparison with Waterdeep is probably not accurate as they are very different cities in outlook and make-up. I would think that Silverymoon's worst punishment would likely be permanant exile backed up with a magical geas never to return to the city and a magical mark (that fades within a tenday) that you have been exiled. Being turned out in the wild North with no support from the local populace, no weapons and some food is most likely a death sentence anyway ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 01:15:18
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Roewyn, if King Azoun did die, then I suspect all the conspirators would be put to death. Two reasons, because the king of a kingdom has been assassinated, PLUS his daughter Alissra would not allow them to live anyways. Lol.
George, I didn't compare the laws of the two cities. I used Waterdeep as an example just to prove that the death penalty can be applied even without killings. I could have used Menzoberranzan if I wanted to as an example. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 05:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
quote:
Originally posted by R0GUE
Thanks for the replies everyone. The specific charge I am wondering about is treason - in this case consorting with drow and possibly spying for them. He hasn't directly taken anyone's life though - still think this is punishable by death?
Most countries at war, as Silverymoon de facto is, would punish treason with death. (Including most European countries, but not I believe Australia, who did away with the DP completely after the Boar War.)
Although, the Australian SAS would just probably drop the traitor off a C-130 over the Tasmanian Sea.
Err...Magic Matt, Australia officially abolished capital punishment nationwide, under the Crimes (Death Penalty Abolition) Amendment Act of 1985. It was stated in Commonwealth law, that the Death Penalty was abolished in 1973, by Section 4 of the Death Penalty Abolition Act of 1973.
I'm surprised George didn't pick up on this...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 06:30:55
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I didn't even know that that was a single soveriegn nation in the world that didn't have a death penalty. I was prepared to say that there wasn't one.
Ah, the learning never stops. 
Until, of course, one is dead. And even then . . . who knows?  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 13:04:09
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Hehe, I didn't pick up on it simply because that post drifted into non-FR comparisons and I automatically switched off! I try never to compare the Realms to the "real world".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 01:14:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I didn't even know that that was a single soveriegn nation in the world that didn't have a death penalty. I was prepared to say that there wasn't one.
Ah, the learning never stops.
Until, of course, one is dead. And even then . . . who knows?
Hmmm...I'm more than a little surprise to hear you say that. I mean, when you consider what you had written in your previous signature and all...?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 02:09:29
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| What do you mean, Sage? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 05:30:39
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I'm talking about the Chinese proverb - A closed mind is like a closed book: just a block of wood. I would have thought that when it came to a subject as serious as the death penalty, you would be the type of person who would not just assume things so generally...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 05:44:46
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Ah. I of course knew what quote you were talking about (when I changed to this quote from In the Heart of Darkness, I moved the proverb to my profile), but I just wasn't sure what you meant about the rest.
As to that, well -- I'm in favor of a death penalty. That is, I believe there are those who are too dangerous and/or evil to let live. I'm not in favor of a death penalty that is used a lot. It should be reserved for the worst of all humanity.
There are those who say that being against abortion and for the death penalty are mutually contradictory. I say those people just didn't think at all.
Well, folks, you heard it here. The Bookwyrm, being deadly serious. No pun intended. I'm sure Alaundo will chide me for falling into politics (though since he's a Brit, he's a bit more sheltered from the crazy Yanks), but it isn't really about politics . . . .  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 06:05:02
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Well, I'm not about to de-rail this scroll by heading into a discussion as subjective as earth-politics, other than to say that I do not believe in the ultimate sanction of justice that is represented by the death penalty. But my decision is based more on personal reasons, than any political motivation.
Now, back to Silverymoon...
Overall, given the high political position that Silverymoon holds within the Silver Marches alliance, I'm sure that quite a significant amount of debate would have to be carried out by the local government before any major decision, such as having a death penalty, could be determined. I mean, most of the other realms included in the alliance look to Silverymoon as a model society, so it's rulers must work to ensure that they set an example by positive actions, knowing full well that the other members of the alliance will look to see how the city of Silverymoon handles difficult areas of the law, in an attempt to make a better informed judgement.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 06:26:12
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Yes, I figured you were. However, rest assured that I, too, came to such a conclusion outside party lines. I'm actually party-independant. In this country, at least, it's hard to be sane and not see the world as divided into just two camps, each calling the other evil. Witness the current hoopla. Though just about anyone can admit that the muckraking is mostly on one side -- and on the part of one man's campaign, not a party.
In and of itself, though, my answer as to the comment you made about open minds really leads into my cynicism about humanity in general. In fact, let me close with another quote:
"The intelligence of the planet is constant. The population is growing."
Now. Realmslore. Please. I need to get out of my sour mood . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 10:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Ah. I of course knew what quote you were talking about (when I changed to this quote from In the Heart of Darkness, I moved the proverb to my profile), but I just wasn't sure what you meant about the rest.
As to that, well -- I'm in favor of a death penalty. That is, I believe there are those who are too dangerous and/or evil to let live. I'm not in favor of a death penalty that is used a lot. It should be reserved for the worst of all humanity.
There are those who say that being against abortion and for the death penalty are mutually contradictory. I say those people just didn't think at all.
Well, folks, you heard it here. The Bookwyrm, being deadly serious. No pun intended. I'm sure Alaundo will chide me for falling into politics (though since he's a Brit, he's a bit more sheltered from the crazy Yanks), but it isn't really about politics . . . .
Well met
A Brit? Why i'm a pure Faerunian through and through, i'll have ye know
I do in fact agree with ye on this matter, Bookwyrm, even more so than thee. Ahem, but as ye mentioned... enough of the politics |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 11 Apr 2004 10:06:42 |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 13:15:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
Yeah, you are right DDH_101
I remembered that incident when you remind me
"An attempted assassination of King Azoun IV of Cormyr is foiled, and many treacherous nobles are exiled from Cormyr. Some disgraced members of House Bleth and House Cormaeril emigrate to Westgate, quickly establishing themselves as important members of Westgate's merchant nobility thanks to the disarray amongst the city's older houses stemming from the events of the year before."
I guess many crimes commited by the silverymoon residents are punished that way but what effect can that punishment have on a person who have come to silverymoon just for a killing and has no intention to live there.
But Azoun wasn't killed and forgave them do you think it would be the same if he died?
I say it again they would forgive but they have limits. And it will be up to dm to decie the verdict cuz there is nt written rule and everything is up to the high mage
I'd argue that the reason they were exiled rather than executed was that they were nobles -- of powerful families at that. I'd also argue that they were not forgiven, nor will be under the current regime. I truly doubt that common assassins would be shown the same clemency in Cormyr.
Sarta |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 17:34:30
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| Sarta, when you say "assassins", I assume you are talking about the Fire Knives. The Fire Knives are a different case since their whole purpose is to kill off the nobles of Cormyr, especially the Obarskyr family. It was long decried (sp?) by King Azoun IV when he was young that all members of the Fire Knives shall be hunted down since they had killed his childhood friend. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 21:56:59
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And fire knives are mostly nobles.
There is no law as far as I know that bans execute nobles in cormyr but destroying at least 2 families would be pretty cruel. Exile is a very reasonable way to deal with such treachery. some heads role and the others are kicked out of country, here we have a decent punishment.
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 00:12:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
[/i]
Most countries at war, as Silverymoon de facto is, would punish treason with death. (Including most European countries, but not I believe Australia, who did away with the DP completely after the Boar War.)
Although, the Australian SAS would just probably drop the traitor off a C-130 over the Tasmanian Sea.
Err...Magic Matt, Australia officially abolished capital punishment nationwide, under the Crimes (Death Penalty Abolition) Amendment Act of 1985. It was stated in Commonwealth law, that the Death Penalty was abolished in 1973, by Section 4 of the Death Penalty Abolition Act of 1973.
I'm surprised George didn't pick up on this...
Thanks for the clarification Sage, while aware Australia did away with the death penalty completely, and the military did after the Boar War, I’m very surprised it took until 1973 to completely remove it form the criminal law.
So perhaps Silverymoon would be more like Australia in outlook on the death penalty?
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Edited by - Magic Matt on 13 Apr 2004 00:39:11 |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 00:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
As to that, well -- I'm in favor of a death penalty. That is, I believe there are those who are too dangerous and/or evil to let live. I'm not in favor of a death penalty that is used a lot. It should be reserved for the worst of all humanity.
I completely agree with Bookwyrm on this topic....
  
And I think the people of Silverymoon would as well.
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Edited by - Magic Matt on 13 Apr 2004 00:32:41 |
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Topic |
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Does Silverymoon have the death penalty?
