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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2018 : 15:57:56
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So is there any source stating what exactly befell High Imaskar after the latest Sundering? All that was officially posted that I can find is:
"Since the Chosen of the gods began to appear in the last few years, Mulhorand has become a land transformed.
Its deities manifested fully in the forms of some of their descendants, and swiftly rallied the Mulan to overthrow the Imaskari.
Aided by the mighty wizard Nezram, known as the World-Walker, the Mulhorandi overthrew the rulers of High Imaskar, who fled into the Plains of Purple Dust or to extra-planar safeholds.
When the upheaval ended and the Chosen began to disappear, the gods of Mulhorand remained to rule their people, focusing their attention on defending their restored homeland to keep the war in Unther and Tymanther from spilling over its borders.
For the first time in centuries, the people in Mulhorand are free, with the gods declaring that slavery shall no longer be practiced among the Mulan since their return."
It's a bit vague, especially since the Imaskari were apparently capable of god-defeating magic...
It's also the first of a few sources indicating the Chosen began to simply vanish once they were "no longer needed". Any other relevant info about that published somewhere?
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"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 16:00:14
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| I'm rather on the fence about the Chosen thing. On one hand, the Realms may have had too many Chosen. On the other, if the Chosen of some of the lesser gods began to vanish, that would once again leave us with only the big-wigs that everyone is familiar with, and perhaps a bit tired of. Gods like Rillifane Rallathil having Chosen was a breath of fresh air, IMO. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 16:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
So is there any source stating what exactly befell High Imaskar after the latest Sundering? All that was officially posted that I can find is:
"Since the Chosen of the gods began to appear in the last few years, Mulhorand has become a land transformed.
Its deities manifested fully in the forms of some of their descendants, and swiftly rallied the Mulan to overthrow the Imaskari.
Aided by the mighty wizard Nezram, known as the World-Walker, the Mulhorandi overthrew the rulers of High Imaskar, who fled into the Plains of Purple Dust or to extra-planar safeholds.
When the upheaval ended and the Chosen began to disappear, the gods of Mulhorand remained to rule their people, focusing their attention on defending their restored homeland to keep the war in Unther and Tymanther from spilling over its borders.
For the first time in centuries, the people in Mulhorand are free, with the gods declaring that slavery shall no longer be practiced among the Mulan since their return."
It's a bit vague, especially since the Imaskari were apparently capable of god-defeating magic...
It's also the first of a few sources indicating the Chosen began to simply vanish once they were "no longer needed". Any other relevant info about that published somewhere?
On the statement of "Chosen no longer needed".... one of the things that might be worked into things is that the "gods" as we saw them in the ToT as avatars were not the classic avatars. They weren't bodies formed of "faith energy" that could be dissipated and reabsorbed. The gods during the ToT were "lesser avatars" which were the god riding in a mortal's body. Eventually these deities were returned to the heavens, but a few that died were returned as gods by "riding" new mortal bodies. It may be that some of the gods that have returned did so via a "pact" of some sort with a mortal who willingly "sacrificed" his very soul (destroying himself in the process) to power the return of a god. I wouldn't say this was true of them all in the slightest bit, but even if say 20% of them returned a god in this fashion somehow. Others may have returned by other means like siphoning the power of magic items or the immortality of some being, etc... We know that this is how Azuth returned for instance, and its hinted that the same is true of Mystra. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 17:29:32
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The Chosen of 4E were not the same as the Chosen of prior editions. For Lurue only knows what reason, someone at WotC decided that there needed to be enough Chosen in the Realms that the Shades were literally rounding them up and putting them in what were essentially large concentration camps -- and those Chosen were weak enough that having hundreds of them in one place wasn't an issue for the Shades.
Mainly, these Chosen each had one or two minor abilities, barely enough to warrant notice or mention, if not for the Chosen designation.
A few -- mainly the ones the novels focused on -- were more powerful, but even those still didn't compare to Mystra's Chosen.
Personally, I wish the whole Chosen arms race had never started, and that TSR/WotC had stuck with Ed's vision of only Mystra having them, because only she needed them -- they were both asset and liability to her. Instead, people focused on the "asset" angle and decided to run with that.
If it had been up to me, I'd've allowed other deities to have souped-up servants, perhaps semi-immortal like Mystra's Chosen. But they'd've been called something else (different for each deity), their abilities would have matched their deities' mandates, and most of them would be considerably weaker than any of the Seven Sisters. And most deities would not have had more than one such champion.
Expanding on my idea: a Favored of Lathander would have been like a cleric on speed when it came to battling undead, they'd be able to create sunlight, and have some serious healing abilities. But they wouldn't be immortal (renewal!), and they'd have (aside from the healing) nothing special for dealing with living foes.
An Exalted of Bane would have serious melee chops and would be able to intimidate people like no one's business. He'd be both insanely strong and incredibly charismatic -- so when force of will didn't do it, force of arm could. He'd be way tough and hard to kill, but not immortal (that would lead to complacency and weakness), and beyond being able to throw his weight around, he'd not be all that.
As I see it, the main problem with Chosen was the Hollywood approach: if people like this one minor character, let's put them in the spotlight. And if one is cool, more than one is cooler! Rather than embrace creativity, TSR/WotC picked the MOAR BOOM! model. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 18:52:53
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That's why I was on the fence about the issue, myself. I like the idea of favored mortals as you put it Wooly, and I liked how Paul Kemp portrayed the 5 Chosen of Mask being his elite agents, each representing the god in a different manner. However, I also dislike the idea that there are suddenly so many so-called "Chosen" running about willy-nilly, especially if they're too weak to break out of imprisonment camps despite them being clustered together in huge groups.... :S
I rather like your suggestion that each god would have a different name for their most favored of servants. Kind of how Cyric had a Seraph of Lies, perhaps Waukeen could have a particularly shrewd businessman called a Coinmaster, etc...
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"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 18:58:46
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| Though the Chosen arms race started back in 2E, even then, I don't think there were more than maybe 2 dozen in the entire setting (if that many) -- and most of those were Mystra's. So far as I know, the many mini-Chosen of the 4E/5E transition were only for that transition, and only in the Sundering novels. And this was also after Mystra's Chosen had been weakened and their number diminished. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 May 2018 18:59:26 |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 21:47:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Personally, I wish the whole Chosen arms race had never started, and that TSR/WotC had stuck with Ed's vision of only Mystra having them, because only she needed them -- they were both asset and liability to her. Instead, people focused on the "asset" angle and decided to run with that.
If it had been up to me, I'd've allowed other deities to have souped-up servants, perhaps semi-immortal like Mystra's Chosen. But they'd've been called something else (different for each deity), their abilities would have matched their deities' mandates, and most of them would be considerably weaker than any of the Seven Sisters. And most deities would not have had more than one such champion.
This is pretty interesting to me. Why do you think the Chosen of other gods should operate functionally weaker than the Chosen of Mystra?
Just a difference in what their patron deity represents? Like the difference between a "Fighter" Chosen of Bane and the "Wizard" Chosen of Mystra?
Or is it related to the strength of the god directly? At least how you see it.
I would argue in favor of the arms race, but I agree they have taken it too far.
I like the idea Chosen in general being able to freely manipulate a small sliver of their deity's divine might, basically the Silverfire but flavored to each deity. just so there was a way to even the playing field between deity's Champions as they acted against one another. As it was, when there were only Chosen for Mystra they kind of acted with impunity.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 22:04:35
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Because part of the reason Mystra has Chosen, per Ed, is to put something of a limit on her -- since she covers magic, and the Realms is highly magical, she's the most powerful deity of the setting. Thus, her Chosen are not only the originals, they're carrying part of the power of the most powerful deity of the Realms.
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 22:51:48
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So do you think that Chosen should be exclusively used as limiters for excessively powerful deities?
I get that the realm of magic makes her powerful, and if Ed believes she is the most powerful than that's that. But I guess whenever I think of it I cant really understand why Cosmic power seems to suddenly ceiling where magic does not.
For example how is it that Mystra by virtue of her magic portfolio exceeds:
Jergal - Who, in his prime was so powerful he could split his portfolio three ways and make two greater gods and a intermediate one.
Tempus - Who is worshiped in some way, almost universally across not only Faerun but in every Realm even non magical ones.
I would expect these and any equivalent deity to have some sort of limiter on them for the same reasons as Mystra.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2018 : 23:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
So do you think that Chosen should be exclusively used as limiters for excessively powerful deities?
I get that the realm of magic makes her powerful, and if Ed believes she is the most powerful than that's that. But I guess whenever I think of it I cant really understand why Cosmic power seems to suddenly ceiling where magic does not.
For example how is it that Mystra by virtue of her magic portfolio exceeds:
Jergal - Who, in his prime was so powerful he could split his portfolio three ways and make two greater gods and a intermediate one.
Tempus - Who is worshiped in some way, almost universally across not only Faerun but in every Realm even non magical ones.
I would expect these and any equivalent deity to have some sort of limiter on them for the same reasons as Mystra.
No, Mystra was the first to have Chosen, and they were to act as a sort of check on her power. No other deity was as powerful, and no other deity needed that kind of a limiter -- so no other deity should have a Chosen as powerful as hers.
While I don't disagree that other deities should be equal to Mystra in power, that's not the way the designer of the setting built it. If I created a setting, the deity of magic would not be the most powerful; I'd likely give the most powerful slots to death, the sun, and nature.
But I didn't create the Realms, so I'm going to follow the rules the designer set -- even before the published ones.
My thoughts on these divinely-gifted servants in the Realms is based on what Ed intended Mystra's Chosen to be.
I'm saying that if you're going to give other deities Chosen, then respect the intent behind the original ones. Don't just go Hollywood and rip off an existing idea, make something that adds to the setting but that also respects it.
The examples I gave follow that rule, I think. At least, I tried to make them follow that rule. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 00:20:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
So do you think that Chosen should be exclusively used as limiters for excessively powerful deities?
I get that the realm of magic makes her powerful, and if Ed believes she is the most powerful than that's that. But I guess whenever I think of it I cant really understand why Cosmic power seems to suddenly ceiling where magic does not.
For example how is it that Mystra by virtue of her magic portfolio exceeds:
Jergal - Who, in his prime was so powerful he could split his portfolio three ways and make two greater gods and a intermediate one.
Tempus - Who is worshiped in some way, almost universally across not only Faerun but in every Realm even non magical ones.
I would expect these and any equivalent deity to have some sort of limiter on them for the same reasons as Mystra.
Jergal's portfolios were given to the Three but there is no evidence that when this occurred they were each instantly made greater, greater and intermediate gods respectively. In fact, from my point of view, there was no all-encompassing "Faerun pantheon" when this occurred and they were each one of several gods of strife, death, murder e. al.
Tempus is indeed worshipped by warriors etc. Whilst those individuals are universal across Faerun, there are a zillion more farmers and shopkeepers than warriors. They don't worship Tempus and are likely fairly anti that deity and what he represents. The common people don't like wars.
Chosen should have been limited to Mystra for the game reason espoused by Ed. But once the game designers thought it a cool concept, it was off to the races. It's ironic that my good friend and an esteemed FR writer like Steven Schend was the first to let this genie out of the bottle with Jheryth Phaulkon, the Chosen of Mielikki. After that the Chosen schtick was beaten to death with a rock by most every writer and designer.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
770 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 02:11:55
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George, I'd argue that Cadderly Bonaduce has that "distinction," but I have no desire to do a re-read to see if it was specified in the Cleric Quintet itself or codified later. Give Steven a skampili anyways, just on general principles.
Archmage of Nowhere, Ed has gone on in depth about the difference between Chosen and chosen numerous times, with the reasoning as Wooly and George have already noted. Since I'm currently re-re-reading Ed's 2004 Thread, here's two direct examples;
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 01 May 2004
While I’m at it, let me reiterate: Mystra is the most powerful deity of the Faerunian pantheon, by virtue of the fact that Toril is so overwhelmingly governed, sourced, and powered by magic. (If Ao the Overgod exists, Ao is for purposes of this argument "more" than a deity.) This is why Mystra’s power (the silver fire) is divided up among many mortals: her Chosen. The "Chosen" of Mystra are different than the "Chosen" of other deities (who tend to be champions, advocates, servitors, and so on, who if they have any of the direct power of the deity, are lent it by the deity in a manner quite different from Mystra’s probably-unwilling sharing).
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 16 Dec 2004
Please note that this was part of limiting Mystra’s dominant divine power, and that only she was to have Chosen. Continuing the superhero vein, other creators working in the Realms invented Chosen of X and Chosen of Y, but it was never intended that other deities have Chosen who were more than mortal champions or individuals marked with the deity’s favor: Mystra was and is 'special.' As the goddess of magic in a high-magic world, she has to be.
[EDIT] Balamar Foghaven, re: High Imaskar, the actual topic of the thread; I have no idea, my apologies.
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AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 26 May 2018 02:12:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 03:47:09
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To be fair, though, I don't think that we ever got much more on Jeryth Phaulkon beyond her being a Chosen of Mielikki… So she could very well have fallen more into the category of divine champion, rather than being some analogue of Mystra's Chosen. In fact, given that Steven was one of the early designers that tried to stick closely to Ed's vision, I'd say that it's far more likely that she was something unique and not at all on a scale with one of the Seven Sisters or anything like that.
I am, in fact, wondering if he chose a different term, and an editor changed it. I think I'll ask the next time he pops in.  |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 05:33:21
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| As for the original question, I guess, High Imaskar still exist as a small coalition of outposts in the desert and other planes. The Imaskari were not destroyed, just scattered. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 13:35:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
So do you think that Chosen should be exclusively used as limiters for excessively powerful deities?
I get that the realm of magic makes her powerful, and if Ed believes she is the most powerful than that's that. But I guess whenever I think of it I cant really understand why Cosmic power seems to suddenly ceiling where magic does not.
For example how is it that Mystra by virtue of her magic portfolio exceeds:
Jergal - Who, in his prime was so powerful he could split his portfolio three ways and make two greater gods and a intermediate one.
Tempus - Who is worshiped in some way, almost universally across not only Faerun but in every Realm even non magical ones.
I would expect these and any equivalent deity to have some sort of limiter on them for the same reasons as Mystra.
Mystra however represents or IS the weave. Essentially "The Mystra" becomes a "machine" that provides magic. If she dies entirely, the "machine" goes out of whack. After that, it seems to be that someone else must step in and "become" the "machine" that is the weave. We kind of saw this with what happened both with Mystra I, Midnight, and the Simbul.
Not all deities are like this. For instance, if Bane dies... we don't suddenly have all tyranny in the world stop. If Sune were to die, I don't see all love and beauty in the world dying. It seems that there are only a few deities of this sort (i.e. "too big to fail" deities). For instance, when Lathander "dies" it seems he's got a "backup" deity that pops into place to keep the people of the world alive, plus there are other sun deities in other pantheons to help shoulder the load. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 20:56:36
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| I makes sense of it as seperating the small c Chosen, with minor magical abilities from the far more powerful Chosen like Elminister, Cale, the Mulhorand Pantheon hosts. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 01:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Chosen of 4E were not the same as the Chosen of prior editions. For Lurue only knows what reason, someone at WotC decided that there needed to be enough Chosen in the Realms that the Shades were literally rounding them up and putting them in what were essentially large concentration camps -- and those Chosen were weak enough that having hundreds of them in one place wasn't an issue for the Shades.
-I...what? You know what? Never mind. I don't even want to know.
-Well, I was reading that one of the design theories was to make all the D&D worlds more connected and joined again. Given their ancestors' fondness for portals and such, it'd make sense if plenty of Imaskari escaped into the multiverse. |
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Elves of Faerűn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 01:23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
Since I'm currently re-re-reading Ed's 2004 Thread, here's two direct examples;
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 01 May 2004
The "Chosen" of Mystra are different than the "Chosen" of other deities (who tend to be champions, advocates, servitors, and so on, who if they have any of the direct power of the deity, are lent it by the deity in a manner quite different from Mystra’s probably-unwilling sharing).
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 16 Dec 2004
Please note that this was part of limiting Mystra’s dominant divine power, and that only she was to have Chosen. [...] it was never intended that other deities have Chosen who were more than mortal champions or individuals marked with the deity’s favor
And they didn't have to copy this particular variety either. Since there were other semi-divine types made by more creative people.
Planescape has proxies, but that's not the same.
Barae are much closer, but still not the same. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 17:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Chosen of 4E were not the same as the Chosen of prior editions. For Lurue only knows what reason, someone at WotC decided that there needed to be enough Chosen in the Realms that the Shades were literally rounding them up and putting them in what were essentially large concentration camps -- and those Chosen were weak enough that having hundreds of them in one place wasn't an issue for the Shades.
-I...what? You know what? Never mind. I don't even want to know.
-Well, I was reading that one of the design theories was to make all the D&D worlds more connected and joined again. Given their ancestors' fondness for portals and such, it'd make sense if plenty of Imaskari escaped into the multiverse.
Yes that makes sense. That would also enable me to keep the Imaskari in my campaign while making the implemented changes to the far east regions |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 19:23:32
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| I should think there are plenty of descendants of Imaskar scattered amongst the planes... Some Netherese, too, but not as many as the Imaskari. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 03:15:55
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| I'm with Gyor, there were Chosen with a capital C and those with a lower case c. The lower case c chosen were being scooped up first by the Shades and then by the Thayans (D&D Next Adventure Dead in Thay) trying to capture whatever divine spark they had. I wish they hadn't called the same thing and given us some better explanation of why, perhaps more closely linking it to the effects of the Spellplague on the divine power throughout the Realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 06:51:24
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| I have a theory. The many chosen are a reference to the "Chosen" epic destiny. I mean, in 4e it was one of most popular epic destinies because of the mechanical benefits. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 07:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I have a theory. The many chosen are a reference to the "Chosen" epic destiny. I mean, in 4e it was one of most popular epic destinies because of the mechanical benefits.
Having an answer back from Ed & THO (see relevant page 9 of questions for Ed) I suddenly realize that the Dragon Masks as limits on Tiamat resemble the limits that Chosen of Mystra represent to Mystra, etc. Not sure who built the masks (some hint of dragon cult, Sammaster, or perhaps Netheril in the Kyuss adventure?) but Tiamats "chosen" like Aurils (see Artus Cimber) may exist to be eaten (or put in concentration camps, or..) perform a task that they may not enjoy.
This kind of "chosen" may be more prevalent than the regular kind if we can say any of them are regular. |
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The Fate of Imaskar
