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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 20:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have all the reason in this world. Kiaransalee's reason is that she is a deity of vengeance, and Lolth managed to defeat and gain control over her in the Abyss, so it makes sense for her to want to take revenge.
Her story as a lich queen might not make sense to you, but has been her canon story since the very beginning.
Eilistrae should pitty Lloth for her fall (corrption) and hope for her redemption as well as of all drows.
Vhaerun was directly involved in Lloth's take-over attemtp so he has not much of a reason to hate her as he helped his mother and they failed. He still holds on to the original idea of drow supremancy so there is only some differnce with his mother on how to go about it now.
He represent the archetype of drow rebel/thief and is still welcomed in Lloth's court in Deamonweb Pits.
Vhaeraun hates Lolth as much as Eilistraee does. Even when they were "allies", they weren't exactly on friendly terms, and now they're enemies. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 21:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have all the reason in this world. Kiaransalee's reason is that she is a deity of vengeance, and Lolth managed to defeat and gain control over her in the Abyss, so it makes sense for her to want to take revenge.
Her story as a lich queen might not make sense to you, but has been her canon story since the very beginning.
Eilistrae should pitty Lloth for her fall (corrption) and hope for her redemption as well as of all drows.
Vhaerun was directly involved in Lloth's take-over attemtp so he has not much of a reason to hate her as he helped his mother and they failed. He still holds on to the original idea of drow supremancy so there is only some differnce with his mother on how to go about it now. He represent the archetype of drow rebel/thief and is still welcomed in Lloth's court in Deamonweb Pits.
Eilistraee does want to save *all* drow, she shared their fate and became one of them *just* for that, out of love. However, Lolth is different. She is the cause of all their pain, she *chose* to be the cause of that, she treats her followers worse than you would treat the lowliest cattle, she actively prevents them to develop merely to keep them as her playthings. She draws pleasure from all this. I'm sure that if there was a chance to change Lolth, Eilistraee would be really happy about it, but the thing is that Eilistraee still needs to oppose Lolth, open the drow's eyes to their condition, take them away from her mother's web and to an actually happy life. She can't simply leave things as they are merely hoping that Lolth could be changed.
Vhaeraun might have once been Lolth's ally, but he now hates her guts. He has all the reasons to because of what I said about Eilistraee. Lolth actively impairs any and all drow development, she purposefully keep them down with strife and infighting (and I mean, this is actually canon, explicitly stated in the sourcebooks) in order for them to remain her playtoys. Vhaeraun, who wants and actually strong drow people, *must* oppose his mother to achieve that result.
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For Kieransalee - do you know of any other undead diety that is controled by other diety (Velsharoon serves willingly and even changed his patron)? For me it is very unusual form of servitude between gods and that sparked my interst. It would be very sad if ie Bane could come to Velsharoon (lich) and say "Command Undead"...
Kiaransalee was defeated by Lolth in the Abyss and had to bend to her in order to not be destroyed. Things have changed, and she is now Lolth's enemy, but she still holds a grudge for that (pretty reasonable, since she's a deity of vengeance).
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For Selvetarm himself - he would have to be a very naive for a god to take the Lloth's bait and devour a demon. Possibly it came too be when he was still only a demigod without deeper understanding of his divine status.
Selvetarm hates Lolth because he knows what she did to him. I would want to see him actually act on that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Apr 2018 21:02:15 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 22:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ka'narlist was a follower of Ghaunadaur, and he wasn't really the king of Ilythiir (that I recall, it's been a long time), but one of the rulers of Atornash. <snip>
Your take, Irennan, is precisely what I thought when I read Elaine's novel. However, the GHotR ran with the idea of Ka'Narlist and made him the 'king of Ilythiir'*. I personally didn't care for that, but it is what it is.
I just checked, and the GHotR actually does not say precisely that - it says Attornash became the capital of Ilythiir in the -27000DR entry. Now, since that is BEFORE the Gold elves meet Ka'Narlist, and he is the supreme ruler of Attornash at that time, one has to assume the guy completely in charge of their capital is indeed their 'King'. And he is their king - and Lolth's lover - when he dies later in the Evermeet novel. I suppose you could come up with some sort of weird scenario in which he was the tyrant of the capitol city and yet somehow not the King of the rest of the empire, but I think Occam's Razor should apply here - if he's ruling the capitol city, he's the King.
On the other hand, outside of the GHotR, Elaine made it appear that the dark elves were a very loose 'confederation' of citystates, at best, with different leaders for each city, and each having their own religions, etc. I personally feel that entry in the GHotR was a mistake, but its canon now. Somehow one city - no matter how great - became 'the capitol' in that source. Even though Elaine's story quite clearly stated that he rules just that one city and didn't really give a damn about anyone else (because the GHotR entry now makes the encounters and lore revolving around Eilistraee and Vhaeraun questionable).
The best 'fix' I can offer - after Lolth discovers Toril and makes Ka'Narlist her consort, she has him seize the other autonomous Ilythiir cities and then it goes from a 'loose confederacy;' to an actual empire. The entry in -27,000 was 'painting broad strokes', and wasn't being very specific: Attornish was "the shining beacon of elf culture for millennia", and then became "The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash". Simply by switching the one sentence around it makes so much more sense, in regards to the novel. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2018 22:26:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 02:00:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ka'narlist was a follower of Ghaunadaur, and he wasn't really the king of Ilythiir (that I recall, it's been a long time), but one of the rulers of Atornash. <snip>
Your take, Irennan, is precisely what I thought when I read Elaine's novel. However, the GHotR ran with the idea of Ka'Narlist and made him the 'king of Ilythiir'*. I personally didn't care for that, but it is what it is.
I just checked, and the GHotR actually does not say precisely that - it says Attornash became the capital of Ilythiir in the -27000DR entry. Now, since that is BEFORE the Gold elves meet Ka'Narlist, and he is the supreme ruler of Attornash at that time, one has to assume the guy completely in charge of their capital is indeed their 'King'. And he is their king - and Lolth's lover - when he dies later in the Evermeet novel. I suppose you could come up with some sort of weird scenario in which he was the tyrant of the capitol city and yet somehow not the King of the rest of the empire, but I think Occam's Razor should apply here - if he's ruling the capitol city, he's the King.
Not necessary. London and Washington DC both have mayors that run the town, and don't do anything on a national level.
Honestly, I can't see Ka'Narlist caring about running a nation. That kind of thing takes time and energy that could be spent elsewhere. Actually, I don't see him even running the town as much as he's got everyone jumping at his command, but he only worries about his own needs. He could run the town if he wanted, and since everyone jumps to his every whim, he is technically running it -- but he leaves the actual administrative stuff to others, so long as he's taken care of. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Apr 2018 02:02:10 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 03:07:07
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Yes, if only Rich Baker had listened to Eric and I and dated the (first) Sundering in c.-24000 DR like we asked him to - then everything works much better. You have the elven city states of Atorrnash (dark), Occidian (gold) and Sharlarion (moon) that exist before the Sundering and then the great elven realms that form after. His (still unexplained) choice of -17600 DR is very problematic given the dates in Cormanthyr. Oh well, c'est la Realms and designers who know best.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 17:26:52
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Keptolo has nothing to do with Vhaerun, he's a foppish consort God to Lolth, a far more willing one then Selvetarm.
And he hasn't shown up in FR, at least until now perhaps, we will see if MTOF adds Keptolo to FR along with other Drow deities like that Drow Scorpion God from Eberron. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 19:22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Yes, if only Rich Baker had listened to Eric and I and dated the (first) Sundering in c.-24000 DR like we asked him to - then everything works much better. You have the elven city states of Atorrnash (dark), Occidian (gold) and Sharlarion (moon) that exist before the Sundering and then the great elven realms that form after. His (still unexplained) choice of -17600 DR is very problematic given the dates in Cormanthyr. Oh well, c'est la Realms and designers who know best.
-- George Krashos
Well, he is no longer on-staff there, and AFAIK has nothing to do with D&D anymore, so we can probably just ignore that dating and call it an error, if the -24,000 DR date fixes stuff better.
I agree with you that a better, newer (with REAL illustrations actually MADE for the book!) GHotR should be published. So much more could have been accomplished there. Also, with the 4e/5e prehistory-lore 'in hindsight', they can add a lot of the proto-history into the beginning ('the Time Before time') and merge with the stuff on the Creator Races (leves/fey and humans are mentioned, but not the others, and we still don't really have enough of the Giant/Dragon wars - we could finally iron all of that out, even if it means shifting some stufa around).
I am completely okay with tweaking the timeline in a few places (especially in regards to those truly ancient events) if it means we could finally have perfected FR timeline with no contradictions of huge 'plotholes'.
And maps, of course. With me doing the 'sciency' pre-maps and Mike Schley producing the final work (he is a FAR better artist, but he doesn't have the grasp of RW science - and FR lore - I feel is needed to create accurate historical maps for the setting). We would probably need a 'merged world' map showing Abeir-Toril before it was sundered, and that would be a monumental work.
You know, if we stuck the earliest parts of that conflict back before The Sundering, that would make the most sense. Thus, the giant kingdoms and draconic empires mentioned in their stories/myths can all be placed on the Abeir-Toril map, and we wouldn't have to worry about conflicts, because much of that terrain would have gotten shunted off to Abeir after the split.
I almost feel like starting another map... ALMOST.
But even I'm not that nuts.
Anyhow, that means whatever giants and dragons were left on Toril after the Sundering would just be an 'echo' of their former glory, and that would cover the strangeness of them telling tales about their 'vast, warring empires', even though we see little evidence of that (or where they even might have been).
Would it be possibly to spread the Sundering out? I just thought of this so go ahead and shoot holes in it. I mean, I doubt even an Overpower could just snap its fingers and create perfectly balanced biosystems on two separate worlds instantly. Plus, he may have been experimenting with 'what goes where' - sometimes unforeseen things happen and you have to rethink your placements (as a gamer, I am very familiar with this - this not only is the very basis of wargames, but it becomes a never-ending quest for the 'perfect setup' in sim-type games). So what if Ao began building Abeir out of Toril in -24,000 DR, and it wasn't finalized until -17,600 DR? Would that help us? Anything 'removed' from Toril could have been stored in the side=-plane of Abeir, which could have had a stasis-like effect on it until he completed his work. When he was all done with is work, he could have just 'flipped a switch' and 'turned the lights on', as it were (thus, beings that vanished from Toril over 7000 years earlier suddenly 'wake-up' on their new world... quite confused). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2018 19:23:31 |
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Selvetarm's Childhood
