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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 02:15:55
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It's pretty much the generic D&D version of the descent, with a twist on it. I don't mind at all the blessed elves/drow who can change sex (it's gonna be pretty fun in a Lolthite community), but I don't understand why such a blessing would come with the ability to only change sex, and not go back to a wider shapechanging set of abilities, closer to the elves of old (in their new version of this story). I mean, I can see why they did that from a real world perspective, but it seems arbitrarily limited from an in-universe perspective.
Also, I'm so happy that the drow pantheon is back, and with more than a mere blurb in the book to just signal their presence. Eilistraee, Vhaeraun&Co will get their own section each this time around, according to what Crawford said here: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/973712612083945472 (the guy only asked about Eilistraee, Ghaundaur, and Vulkoor--from Eberron--but it's clear that all the drow gods will get their section). The elven gods being back to their normal selves is also a very welcome addition.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Mar 2018 02:16:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 11:53:40
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| Is it just me, or in all these videos, do you just get irritated because they're saying stuff you already know... and they talk slow... and they hedge around any point. Honestly, two minutes in, I was rolling my eyes and going "go somewhere, I need to get ready for work". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 13:13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Is it just me, or in all these videos, do you just get irritated because they're saying stuff you already know... and they talk slow... and they hedge around any point. Honestly, two minutes in, I was rolling my eyes and going "go somewhere, I need to get ready for work".
Yes, as I said, it's pretty much classic stuff, with a twist on it. I don't think that the lore in these videos (or the book) is primarily aimed to people who already know D&D/Multiverse/FR. I think that, much like the SCAG, it's in small part update, and in large part and introduction for newcomers. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 00:32:55
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The is some new info, but most of it's about what is in the book, the whole Drow and Elven Pantheons, including Vulkooth the Eberron Drow God of Scorpions. This will likely be true of Dwarf Pantheon, Deurgar Pantheon, Halfling Pantheon, Gnome Pantheon, Archfiends.
We also found out some monsters that will be in the book, Matron Mothers and their Male Mage Consorts, Aracnomancers, for example.
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Edited by - Gyor on 15 Mar 2018 00:38:33 |
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Spectralballoons
Acolyte
Pakistan
48 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 14:42:05
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| Blessed Drow being able to change only their sex and not other features makes thematic sense, given the focus given to to sex with regards to where you'll go in Drow society. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 15:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
Blessed Drow being able to change only their sex and not other features makes thematic sense, given the focus given to to sex with regards to where you'll go in Drow society.
The blessing is not drow-only, it extends to all elves, and some of the blessed happen to be drow.
As I said, I understand the RW reason behind that, but it strikes me as rather arbitrary in-universe. Not that it really bothers me, a lot of things in D&D are very arbitrary. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 17:12:24
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Wow, sounds a bit random, odd and a big suprise. And risky?
From a theoretical point of view... It makes the Drow interesting, since they are misandrist and a bit reverse-misogynic. Male and female have not just swapped positions in the society. It's something original. But is this any good for RP? Sure it's nice material for a sociology article about feminism...
I'd assume individual drow would just tank up on cassil and nararoot if 'blessed' by Corellon, perhaps Corellon blessed drow would be an idea to undermine Lolth! 
Tbh, at least it's original, quite original. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 17:24:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
Blessed Drow being able to change only their sex and not other features makes thematic sense, given the focus given to to sex with regards to where you'll go in Drow society.
I would say it doesn't make sense for this to be a thing, at least not for drow (it's not really an issue for non-drow).
If gender was so readily mutable, why would any ambitious drow remain a member of the gender that is actively oppressed and denied power? And if gender can be swapped so readily, what does that mean for Lolth's heavy favoritism of females? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 18:28:43
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NO, Drow being able to 'change sex' in a MATRIARCHAL SOCIETY makes no sense at all. It would have, if it were done this way originally, but we have far too much canon - FR and otherwise - that disputes this. Males are jealous of the females - why the hell would they stay male then? Plus, drow were always bisexual anyway. It was never 'spelled out', AFAIK, but its pretty implicit in the writing. 'Sexual orientation' isn't even a thing to them - you'd have to explain that concept to a drow (or any elf, for that matter). There's not really a whole lot the Drow 'frown upon' - their 'morality' runs in an entirely different direction than anything RW. Thus, in a society where you were already allowed to have sex with whoever (or whatever) you wanted, and only females 'rise to the top', why would anyone bother to stay male? Its ridiculous. Their 'gender identity' is the very crux of their society, and it is NOT SEX BASED (so the whole "men would not want to be women because they'd feel 'gay'" thing going on there). The logic simply falls apart. It would have made MORE sense doing this with just about any other group (like the surface Elves, who - in canon - can physically change their biology just by 'making a wish').
I feel like this was one of those, "lets let Chris Perkins make just one decision, just for old times sake" moments. They took just about the ONLY race in D&D who's entire culture revolves around what gender they are born as and threw it right out the window for no other reason then, "we can change stuff!" 4e rears its ugly head once again.
In fact, it would have actually made sense in the case of the dwarves (since there was no outward appearance difference between males and females, originally). It would have been weird, but there would have been some logic to it. With drow, JUST NO. Its the one race where such a decision is 100% WRONG. Its just a very cheap marketing ploy by WotC, and I find it highly distasteful. I really am uncomfortable with this, because Ed has always maintained that the Realms do not have the same strict (JUDGEMENTAL) moral codes we do here on Earth. Its a VERY 'live and let live' world. So by doing this - forcing the one race thats IS 'gender bigoted', it almost appears as if someone had a private agenda, making this decision (because honestly, no matter what side of the political fence you are on, as gamers, we know there is ZERO logic in this decision - 'someone just wanted it', and that's the bottom line). You want to change a race's entire social structure to make the game better - I am fine with that. Even if it turns out to be a horrible decision, I know the 'heart was in the right place' (*cough* 4e *cough*). But this looks entirely like marketing and/or an agenda, which is the entirely WRONG reason to change an entre race's society that's been in D&D since the beginning. They've brought bigotry and gender inequality into a world that had none... why would anyone do that on purpose?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2018 18:36:27 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 21:05:53
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Idk why everyone is saying that this blessing is a drow-specific thing. It's something that can happen to elves from any subrace (and that includes drow). They simply said that there are these few and *rare* (not everyone) individuals who have this kind of connection to Corellon, and that when it happens to a Lolthite drow it has heavier consequences, for obvious reasons (precisely because their society is indeed heavily gendered). The vast majority of drow and elves still can't change sex at will.
Since Eilistraee will be in this book, I'm also curious about whether or not this will tie to her changedance. Ed recently stated that such ritual is no longer a thing, and WotC never talked about that ritual in published material, to begin with. However, in Ed's first explanation, due to Eilistraee's very nature, her dance could only be fully felt as a female (even tho, as I said, this is no longer the case after her return), so there was this spell that allowed males who wanted to be priest to spend time as females. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Mar 2018 21:10:50 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 21:09:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
NO, Drow being able to 'change sex' in a MATRIARCHAL SOCIETY makes no sense at all...They've brought bigotry and gender inequality into a world that had none... why would anyone do that on purpose?
..In fact, it would have actually made sense in the case of the dwarves (since there was no outward appearance difference between males and females, originally). It would have been weird, but there would have been some logic to it.
Mark, you already knew that Corellon & Lolth have always been evil, immortal, bigoted, multiversal, megalomaniacal narcissists, perpetually obsessed with gender roles, that are compulsively driven to spitefully undermine each other, while using their children as pawns ...
Besides, like Crawford said in the video, the Drow are horrified by Corellon's subversive "Blessing"... Corellon is trying to disrupt Lolth's society, while Lolth is trying to corrupt Corellon's society... I dunno, sounds consistent to me for Elves.
Regarding the Dwarves... I've rolled around the "What if" scenario in my head a few times of Dwarves all being male at birth, until at some point in their lives, some become female... If so, maybe Dwarves that become female cannot grow their beards back if they are cut... Perhaps this could be related to a cultural importance of growing & developing a large, ornate beard during Dwarven adolesence? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 21:16:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Idk why everyone is saying that this "blessing" is a drow-specific thing. It's something that can happen to elves from any subrace (and that includes drow). They simply said that there are these few and *rare* (not everyone) individuals who have this kind of connection to Corellon, and that when it happens to a Lolthite drow it has heavier consequences, for obvious reasons (precisely because their society is indeed heavily gendered). The vast majority of drow and elves still can't change sex at will.
Yes, exactly Irennan... In a Multiversal-Fantasy-World context, this really doesn't seem any more drastic than Moradin's "Thunder Blessing"... Just another racial deity playing games with its pawns. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 21:24:46
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It changes absolutely nothing about the elves/drow. It only adds a few plot hooks for those who want to explore them. It's totally ok IMO, even if rather arbitrary for the reasons that I've explained.
Besides, this goes so well with the concept of Masked Traitors of Vhaeraun. Posing as a priestess of Lolth during the "day", leading the revolution as a male by "night". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Mar 2018 21:27:45 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2018 : 22:52:03
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It causes certain options. Clearly it could disrupt all Eleven societies. As the "blessing" is given to some, not all, it allows for greater mistrust. The mistrust would be with Drow, Gold, Silver and Green.
A blessing of one deity (Or the Seldarine) by itself can cause disruption.
In some ways it makes sense to get the full text before judging how it feels and plays. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 00:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
In some ways it makes sense to get the full text before judging how it feels and plays.
Fair enough; I withdraw my objections. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 01:50:46
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I see what they are trying to do here, but I think they are going about it wrong, and this is coming from someone who looks for inclusivity and is adamant about LGBTQ rights. If they want to be inclusive, they should do it via other means. Have a section on transgenderism and other gender non-conformity in the Realms, make more NPCs who are sexual minorities. Be inclusive in the setting itself. Perhaps they are doing it to represent the connection to the Seldarine (who are depicted as both male and female). This seems a bit arbitrary, even if the idea behind it is interesting.
I am curious about this book, as it seems to contain info on elves, and (finally) more info on the returned drow pantheon, and I am glad we are getting a detailed (hopefully) 5e book on elves. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Mar 2018 03:15:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 04:46:23
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Oh, I have absolutely nothing against any of that in the real world - "live & let live'.
But I feel like this was done BECAUSE of the real world, and that cheapens it, IMHO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 10:11:38
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| The changing sex thing for drow has got to be the worst thing I've ever heard. What makes drow unique is the whole "women rule" type of society. Also, is there any past lore about this being achieved without a Girdle of Fem/Mas? Please leave real world issues out of my fantasy. I play D&D to get away from real world stuff for a while. Bad move in my opinion. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 10:49:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
The changing sex thing for drow has got to be the worst thing I've ever heard. What makes drow unique is the whole "women rule" type of society.
Their society is still matriarchal, so that hasn't gone away. However, I agree that the blessing doesn't make a whole lot of sense because of how restricted it is even within the context of WotC's new lore. I mean, these blessed drow and elves are supposed to have somehow kept their connection to Corellon even before being banished, and in the past, when this connection was complete, it granted all elves and drow the ability to shapeshift and be w/e elven subrace they wanted to.
Going by that, that blessing should manifest in the form of granting an elf/drow the ability to not only change sex, but also change their appearance to resemble any elven subrace. It would need to be limited (so no things like gaining the ability to fly when you turn into an avariel), for obvious balance reasons, as to keep this feature related only to the narrative without changing any mechanics, or granting any advantage, but it would make more sense than just being able to change sex.
quote:
Also, is there any past lore about this being achieved without a Girdle of Fem/Mas?
This is not really a problem. Many spells can do that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Mar 2018 13:24:57 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 13:39:18
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The question is why would the Seldarine, of all beings, care about gender? The only openly sexist elven deity is Lolth, who exemplifies misandry. I don't really see why the Seldarine would care about what gender their worshipers are.
It's especially befuddling with the drow; any "Blessed" are going to choose being female. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 14:19:29
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| Maybe this could explain the hair of Srinshee, as an example. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 14:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The question is why would the Seldarine, of all beings, care about gender? The only openly sexist elven deity is Lolth, who exemplifies misandry. I don't really see why the Seldarine would care about what gender their worshipers are.
That's one way to look at it, but you could also say that the fact that the Seldarine doesn't care about gender is precisely the reason why their blessing manifests as the ability to choose your sex at will. The puzzling part is, once again, why would sex be the *only* mutable aspect?
quote:
It's especially befuddling with the drow; any "Blessed" are going to choose being female.
Yeah, that's pretty much the case (unless they happen to be non-Lolthite). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 17:59:39
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Lloth's Drow society is one of TERFs, Eilistraee's Drow are intersectional feminists with attendant hypocracies, Corellon's is equalitists, Vhauruns is Red Pillar, Selvetarm is male feminist, and hints that Zandilar would be a MRA (or as close as that comes) idealogically.
I think that acturately sketches out the gender to faith situation among elves. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 19:40:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh, I have absolutely nothing against any of that in the real world - "live & let live'.
But I feel like this was done BECAUSE of the real world, and that cheapens it, IMHO.
Agreed.... there's way too much hype on gender changing, and now its spread to the game. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 21:06:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh, I have absolutely nothing against any of that in the real world - "live & let live'.
But I feel like this was done BECAUSE of the real world, and that cheapens it, IMHO.
I think they are going about it the wrong way, but I do advocate for more inclusivity. But being able to sex change is not really being all that inclusive. As I said, it would be better if they included a section on transgenderism in the Realms, rather than saying "these elves can sex change after resting".
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
The changing sex thing for drow has got to be the worst thing I've ever heard. What makes drow unique is the whole "women rule" type of society. Also, is there any past lore about this being achieved without a Girdle of Fem/Mas? Please leave real world issues out of my fantasy. I play D&D to get away from real world stuff for a while. Bad move in my opinion.
I see what you mean about escapism, however I feel like fantasy does need more inclusivity, as, just like the real world, it is pretty heteronormative, with some exceptions. Escaping from heteronormative society is a need for some, too, and they should be able to do that with fantasy, just as we use it to escape.
But as I said, I don't think this sex change feature is the way to do it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It changes absolutely nothing about the elves/drow. It only adds a few plot hooks for those who want to explore them. It's totally ok IMO, even if rather arbitrary for the reasons that I've explained.
Besides, this goes so well with the concept of Masked Traitors of Vhaeraun. Posing as a priestess of Lolth during the "day", leading the revolution as a male by "night".
That actually makes sense. A few might find their way to Corellon, but that is hard for someone born in the underdark to do. Vhaerun is so much closer, and he has no problem with Corellon's Blessed, in fact he sees them as an opportunity. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:38:06
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There might be some real world influence, but I think its more an influence from the whole Corellon's all sexes thing.
To be fair he's not the only deity in FR to take multiple sexes. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It changes absolutely nothing about the elves/drow. It only adds a few plot hooks for those who want to explore them. It's totally ok IMO, even if rather arbitrary for the reasons that I've explained.
Besides, this goes so well with the concept of Masked Traitors of Vhaeraun. Posing as a priestess of Lolth during the "day", leading the revolution as a male by "night".
That actually makes sense. A few might find their way to Corellon, but that is hard for someone born in the underdark to do. Vhaerun is so much closer, and he has no problem with Corellon's Blessed, in fact he sees them as an opportunity.
Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would see these individuals as an opportunity. They make for great ambassadors, since the elves seem to be forced to shelter them.
Lolth might use them too, as spies or infiltrators, but she also hates the very concept of that blessing, so she'd likely be torn about that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 20:35:40
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To be honest, I was just basing my opinions on what others have said. I am only watching this video now. Not loving it... "The elves pulled away from Corellon... the drow pulled further away from the Seldarine", and (from the other video), the Shadow elves pulled even furtherier away from the elven gods (I had to actually invent a word to describe this confusing mess).
So basically, the elves are a race of 'brats', but some are bratier than others. "Next up... dark shadow elves... even furtherierier away from the elven gods!!!" I really feel like they were trying to do something new, and instead just kept replaying the one-trick pony. Everything about ALL the sub-races is just a matter of 'degrees' away from Corellon they've become. And yet, at the same time, they are trying to make them all 'elfier' than ever.
"Charcoal, or, ummmm... purplish skin..." - the amount of work he puts into NOT saying the word 'black' is amazing. The world has become so 'PC' that we are afraid to even use ordinary words anymore in fear of reprisals. {sigh}
The rest of it sort of makes sense - the crunchy bits. Not sure how we are supposed to determine who has the 'blessing of Corellon' going on, I can see this being ignored by most groups. It also makes little sense since drow are supposedly ALL cursed by Corellon to begin with (not all Dark Elves, because he did bring-up Krynn, but definitely all DROW - its right in the damn name - Dhaerow = 'traitor'). So he curses all the drow, but then blesses some of them too. How about instead of a sex-change blessing, you just remove the whole 'Curse' thing, ya big elfy jerk?!
"Yeah, I know I made it so sunlight - the thing Elves love best - is anathema to you guys, and you can't even go out in it without penalties, but instead of taking that back, I am going to do this other thing to you wherein you can be just like me! How about that? Isn't that special? You can be all 'sexless' just like me! 'Cause I know deep down, everyone - including the other gods - are all jealous and want to be me. Now, grovel before your beautiful god and thank it profusely for even paying any attention to your insignificant selves."
Liberace, much? 
If he has an aspect in human pantheons, he should be the 'god of delusions' (maybe Narcissus in the Greek pantheon LOL). And lets not forget his three-in-one harem. Why is it that everything I have ever heard or read about Corellon just makes me hate him more? He's just so... slimey.
IMO, of course.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2018 20:37:44 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 20:46:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So he curses all the drow, but then blesses some of them too. How about instead of a sex-change blessing, you just remove the whole 'Curse' thing, ya big elfy jerk?!
It looks like they're retconning the curse. The drow simply walked away from the Seldarine, but they've always looked like that (always as in since the moment when they lost their connection to Arvandor and therefore the ability to shapeshift. Much like the other elves lost it in their new lore).
I'm torn about this. I'm not a fan of warping previous lore, but I've honestly *never* liked this curse. It was always an incredibly lame idea IMHO. Without the curse, in the Realms, the drow would simply be chased into the Underdark after the Crown Wars, much like it is now. It doesn't really change much, conceptually. The first dark elves that arrived at around -27k would just look like drow (and in Elaine's Evermeet, IIRC, things were already like that). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Mar 2018 20:46:49 |
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D&D Beyond: Drow in MTOF
