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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 13:52:19
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Markustay is right though. WE tend to think of Lolth as having always been a goddess, but what empirical evidence do we have of this? Along the same lines, is Orcus a god or a demon leading a cult? Yet, in FR he was treated as a god with clerics. According to the lore, was Asmodeus even a god prior to now, or was he just leader of devil cults? Now, maybe Asmodeus had a divine spark in OTHER crystal spheres (which opens up another whole discussion of what it means to be a god between different crystal spheres and under different overpowers, etc...). Maybe in other crystal spheres, Lolth is still nothing more than a demon queen running a cult. In fact, some of the earliest "gods" we see worshipped according to GHotR are all demons. Which given that the abyss and the elemental chaos seem to have some ties to one another.... makes one wonder if some of the original demon lords aren't simply some kind of perversion of primordial/dawn titan.
For all we know, it was the sudden influx of faith energy when the rules of gods changed after the ToT that suddenly surged Lolth up the charts. What exactly were the rules of gods versus primordials/demon lords/archfey/primal spirits prior to this? We don't know. As a possibility, was it a factor that after the ToT anyone "worshipped" in FR was suddenly given a "divine spark"? For instance were Orcus, Lolth, and even Gargauth, etc.. suddenly granted the "god feat" with the caveat of "get worshipped or get dead". Prior to the ToT were gods simply given a pass on having to maintain divine fervor, unlike say demon lords, who if they wanted power NEEDED sacrifices? Were "gods" essentially on "government checks" and just held by Ao to keep their portfolios running so he didn't have to worry with the mess. Was he simply on the side of gods because the primordials were wasting "energy" needlessly building and destroying things to pass the time? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 14:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm talking about between 1e and 2e. I'm pretty sure Lolth was still a 'Demon Queen' in 1e. Then post-2e (so post-ToT), she's suddenly an intermediate power.
So even if we pretend she was a lesser power in 1e and people were still calling her a 'Demon Queen', we'd have something like this -
0e - Demon Queen
1e - Lesser Power
2e - Intermediate power
3e - Greater Power
4e - Estelar(?)
5e - Overgod of the Universe? 
It seems she's having a rather meteoric raise. No wonder she tried to create her own Spider Weave (Yeah, I know... it was the 'Demon Weave', but I think 'Spider Weave' {Web?} would have sounded cooler).
In 5e, she lost most of what WotC had her gain before with the Silence (that didn't make any sense to begin with, but w/e).
She squandered a lot of resources chasing projects like that Demon Weave that were destined to fail from the get-go (Ed explained that Lolth simply didn't have the knowledge or the finesse to sustain a Weave, that hers was simply leeching on what remained of Mystra's, risking an actual collapse of the Weave. Elminster, Storm and the other chosen had to help Lolth sustain her new Weave until Mystra returned, to avoid something even worse than the Spellplague). She's got to deal with Vhaeraun and Eilistraee again. Her darkening thingy and war against the Silver Marches thing failed. The Demon Lords were sent back to the Abyss before she could achieve her goals, and so on. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Feb 2018 14:07:42 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 14:13:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay is right though. WE tend to think of Lolth as having always been a goddess, but what empirical evidence do we have of this? Along the same lines, is Orcus a god or a demon leading a cult? Yet, in FR he was treated as a god with clerics. According to the lore, was Asmodeus even a god prior to now, or was he just leader of devil cults? Now, maybe Asmodeus had a divine spark in OTHER crystal spheres (which opens up another whole discussion of what it means to be a god between different crystal spheres and under different overpowers, etc...). Maybe in other crystal spheres, Lolth is still nothing more than a demon queen running a cult. In fact, some of the earliest "gods" we see worshipped according to GHotR are all demons. Which given that the abyss and the elemental chaos seem to have some ties to one another.... makes one wonder if some of the original demon lords aren't simply some kind of perversion of primordial/dawn titan.
For all we know, it was the sudden influx of faith energy when the rules of gods changed after the ToT that suddenly surged Lolth up the charts. What exactly were the rules of gods versus primordials/demon lords/archfey/primal spirits prior to this? We don't know. As a possibility, was it a factor that after the ToT anyone "worshipped" in FR was suddenly given a "divine spark"? For instance were Orcus, Lolth, and even Gargauth, etc.. suddenly granted the "god feat" with the caveat of "get worshipped or get dead". Prior to the ToT were gods simply given a pass on having to maintain divine fervor, unlike say demon lords, who if they wanted power NEEDED sacrifices? Were "gods" essentially on "government checks" and just held by Ao to keep their portfolios running so he didn't have to worry with the mess. Was he simply on the side of gods because the primordials were wasting "energy" needlessly building and destroying things to pass the time?
It may be the case, but that would also make the difference between gods and other powerful entities very arbitrary. In my Realms, I personally treat all outer beings as entities that are strongly tied to certain ideas and that draw power from people's belief or from the strength/prominence of the concept itself. Deities and demons share that aspect, they have different names because they represent different things to those who gave them that name.
That said, in the Realms gods have always relied on faith. Before the ToT they didn't need it to survive, but they drew strength from it nonetheless. In Evermeet, Lolth's whole plan is to become a goddess again by drawing elves and drow to her. So, it makes sense that in those 7.5k years (actually, more than that) she rose from Demon to deity. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 21:35:16
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Which is why I had to create that odd layer of 'Ubertars' in my homebrew cosmological musings. These are 'local' (sphere-specific) aspects, and they can be somewhat different than the 'core being' - related but different portfolios, appearance (nothing more than 'mortal expectations'), and even power-level. Once established, they can create their own avatars, and even send them off to other worlds to spread their power-base. This is why we can have different aspects of the same deity on one world. That wasn't how the system was setup to work - it was supposed to be one aspect per Crystal Sphere. And in most cases, that's precisely how it works. In core, we call the 'mother of monsters' archtype Tiamat. On Krynn, they call her aspect Takhisis. They are different. Its possible that Takhisis has even managed to diverge from the 'core being' enough to become her own autonomous God at this point (and that happens, usually by the being absorbing others, but it can also happen through mortal religion & dogma).
In the case of 'good' gods, these aspects usually get along when they find themselves within the same sphere. Evil ones tend to try and destroy/absorb the other. But there are always exceptions, and its all on a case-by-case basis. Maybe Grummsh One-Eye allows Gruumsh two-eye to stick around, maybe he doesn't. It depends on the world-specific circumstances. So Aspects and my Ubertars are basically the same thing - it's just that one from another setting has interloped on a different version's territory, in cases where we have differing versions of the same god on one world (this is most often caused by large groups of mortals interloping, and 'bringing their gods with them').
More On-Topic:
So here's what I think may have gone-on with Lolth. A LONG time ago Lolth discovered the Realms. She was still a Demon Queen at that time. HOWEVER, Lolth was sort of unique (at least, back then), because she was a former God. The whole thing with Corellon turning her into a demon is just weird, because I've already establish the 'demon' and 'devil' are more like job descriptions. I almost get the idea that what he did there was confine her to the Abyss... and she eventually found a way to get out. So really, she didn't change, just her address did. We have other instances wherein 'fiends' have taken on titles of nobility/royalty, so those may all be cases where they were NOT Tanar'ri or Baatezu to begin with (which ARE 'races').
So Lolth's 'essence' was stuck in the Abyss, thanks to Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine, and she carved a nice little home out for herself there. She was still able to send out avatars, though, which maybe Corellon didn't count on. One of them discovers The Realms, and she sees the drow - whom she's always had a kinship to - and decides to promote herself as their God... and she eventually succeeds, with some help from others along the way (Wendonai, etc). This creates an interesting problem - she now has an Ubertar (Aspect) that has somewhat more power than her core-being, or, at least, an equal amount of power. She realizes she can use this to eventually break-free of her imprisonment. Eventually, the Lolth of The Realms even diverges a bit from her core aspect (which is stuck as a drow-headed spider). Her name even changes slightly to Lloth, and she is seen as a beautiful (rather than disgusting) spider with a human upperbody and head. Elsewhere in the multiverse, they are still seeing Lolth as a spider-headed Demon-Queen (her 'core' stuck in the Abyss). Who knows? Maybe she seen the stunt Tiamat pulled* to get herself free from Baator, or maybe it was the other way around, or maybe they had nothing to do with each other -they were both very clever.
So Lolth lets her Lloth aspect get bigger and stronger, until she is an intermediate goddess - something her core persona fell short of. This means she had established a greater portion of her power outside the Abyss. So Lloth - her Faerūnian aspect - sets the wheels in motion to become a greater God, by 'pulling' the rest of her out of the Abyss. This is what is going on in the background of War of the Spider Queen. She siphons more of her core power off - placing it in mortal receptacles (her 'Chosen'), and is finally able to tear the Demonweb Pits right out of the Abyss (actually, they were 'copied', VERY much like what Ravenoft does with geography). Basically, once she managed to get all of her out from under Corellon's curse, a new version of the DWP formed around her in the Outer Planes. This is the conclusion we see at the end of the WotSQ series. By the Logic of Magic, the being the curse was meant for 'no longer existed'.
Just one problem - core Lolth wasn't as clever as FR Lloth, and although it was more of a merger than a subsuming, our (FR) Lolth 'got dumber', or rather, didn't have the experiences FR-specifc Lloth did, and she wound up making a bunch of the same mistakes that got her in trouble in the first place - over-reaching, and an impetuous nature that lead her to move forward before everything was ready (in other words, a more 'chaotic' recklessness that our FR Lloth managed to get out of her system a LONG time ago).
And that would be the situation we are at today - just one unified 'Lolth' again, and our FR aspect is a direct, almost exact copy of the core archtype at this point (which is good for FR mortals, because it means we have the headstrong and impulsive version now).
*Something I assume we are going to be made privy to in the upcoming Mordenakinen's Tome of Foes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 21:42:11 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 21:41:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[...]
And that would be the situation we are at today - just one unified 'Lolth' again, and our FR aspect is a direct, almost exact copy of the core archtype at this point (which is good for FR mortals, because it means we have the headstrong and impulsive version now).
This explanation with your "Ubertar" idea makes far more sense than the *actual* contradictory nonsense that was the WotSQ plot. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 21:43:17
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| Thank you - I put WAY too much effort into trying to make sense of everything TSR/WotC has done to D&D over the past 48 years. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 21:43:31 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 04:57:13
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| Lloth was cast down to demon by Corellon. She then built up her demon power over however many eons that took. No clue. She was a goddess more powerful that Eilistraee by the time elves reached Faerun - this means she's intermediate by -25000. The bump to greater doesn't happen until she goes all cocoon. I assume that because she was goddess / lord of the demonweb pits layer of the abyss that you can still call her a demon at this time. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 05:07:14
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| Regardless of how long she was a demon, the fact that she was a demon and is still served by demons makes it more likely that she'd let her followers have all sorts of interactions with demons -- including horizontal ones. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 10:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Lloth was cast down to demon by Corellon. She then built up her demon power over however many eons that took. No clue. She was a goddess more powerful that Eilistraee by the time elves reached Faerun - this means she's intermediate by -25000. The bump to greater doesn't happen until she goes all cocoon. I assume that because she was goddess / lord of the demonweb pits layer of the abyss that you can still call her a demon at this time.
Some of this is 'opinion'.
Eilistraee was already established on Toril when Lolth showed up. So was Vhaeruan. The only 'Dark Seldarine' who wasn't invited to the party was Momma Lolth.
You aren't anything (maybe a demi-power) before you have an established following on a world. She may have been important on other worlds, but not on Toril. And she definitely was just a 'Demon Queen' under 200 years ago on Oerth, and on other known D&D worlds the drow have never even heard of her (except for the 4e Nerath setting, so I guess she added that one recently).
I don't really see her being as important or powerful as folks seem to make her out. I think she does the same thing Mystra does - its all PR. This is probably why she keeps such a tight lid on her followers. She's really just a tiny fish in a very large pond.
Buuuuut... I have a feeling all of this will be answered (canonically) fairly soon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2018 10:24:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 13:18:57
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| For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 14:20:48
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Lolth gets a lot of hype. Meanwhile, Urdlen and Kanchelsis also live in the Abyss, are also multispheric and are also Intermediate Powers. I think the implications are a lot more terrifying; how many worlds have been condemned to orgies of blood and flesh, how many worlds have been reduced to living nightmares of hate and wrath and blind alien malevolence, while Lolth works her schemes?
Lolth, chief of the Dark Seldarine, is an Intermediate Power.
Urdlen, Outcast and the only dark power of the Gnome Pantheon, a thing of indescribable malevolence and hatred, is also an Intermediate Power.
Kanchelsis, who rules over vampires and blood and the corruption of the vital forces, who has no priests, is also an Intermediate Power.
The drow? Who cares about the drow? Think of the sheer horror that Urdlen must invoke for him that he's inches away from greater divinity. Think of the lifeblood of worlds that Kanchelsis must have supped on, and of the vampires eager to please the greatest of their kind with greater and grander sanguine feasts.
They're infinitely more terrifying than "My race has not collapsed through creator fiat" Lolth. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 17:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status.
They were created by Ed for FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark -- the original tome of that name, and the only one that was FR specific. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 17:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status.
They were created by Ed for FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark -- the original tome of that name, and the only one that was FR specific.
They actually date to before that, Eilistraee does at least. Ed said that he created Eilistraee for his own Realms, and that she had already showed up in his campaign before DotU. He only made her official when TSR asked him for more drow deities: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/edverse/hello_internet/?utm_source=reply&utm_medium=email&utm_content=read_more#comment-1534073727 |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Feb 2018 17:41:24 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 17:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For all we know as well, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun may have been simply demigods for nigh on forever ago. I don't think we'd ever even HEARD of either prior to 2nd edition, so only after the ToT may have changed their status.
Vhaeraun used to be the main deity of Ilythiir. If anything, he lost a lot of power with time, especially when the Elven Sundering destroyed a lot of the coastal Ilythiir. When Lolth arrived on Toril, she was far weaker than her son. That means that he was probably an intermediate power back before Lolth arrived.
As for Eilistraee, back then she was fighting to prevent Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur from getting a grip on the drow/dark elves, but it was a hard struggle and she and her followers ended up being chased away from Ilythiir by Vhaeraun. She would gain prominence only much later, when Miyeritar was created and she became a patroness of that kingdom.
If you think about it, Lolth is far worse than her children at leading the drow to anything meaningful. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Feb 2018 17:41:06 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 17:47:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Buuuuut... I have a feeling all of this will be answered (canonically) fairly soon.
My only fear is that the FR-side of this story will be entirely retconned with this upcoming Mordenkainen's book. They have already stated that Lolth got all the elves (yes, not only the drow) on her side when she betrayed Corellon, and then all of them except the drow backpeddled on their decision just one moment before it was too late. In our current history, the Seldarine Wars didn't even involve mortal elves in any way. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 19:23:33
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Hmmmmm... that actually sounds like some recent (NOT 'Mark canon') musings in that direction. I wouldn't hate it, but I'd have to rethink a couple of things.
It is possible - but unlikely - that Lolth has only three worlds 'under her belt'. It doesn't appear Threnody worshiped or even knew of her. Eberron certainly doesn't, nor does Mystarra. Athas doesn't (AFAIK), and the 'Dark Elves' (Shadow Elves) of Ravenloft were something else entirely (so, no Lolth there either). Most other settings are sub-settings of FR, except for Council of Wyrms and Jakandor. She's in Planscape and Spelljammer, but those are both 'umbrella settings', and since Toril & Oerth are important in both, Lolth has to be in both (so I'm not sure if I can actually count those as 'other settings' she is known in). Nerath (Nentir Vale) was only a thing in 4e, and the ay I am spinning that now (as in, 'homebrew' take) is that it was part of the proto-setting. The world before it was shattered.
Which brings me to my next point - in the 'First World' Lolth makes an appearance, but only in regards to the stuff between Corellon and Gruumsh, AFAIK. In fact, since that conflict appears to have happened post-Shattering (of the LoH), it could very well be that Lolth was never an Estelar - she was part of the 'second wave', at best. That makes her kids 3rd generation Gods. I am willing to concede that perhaps Lolth was the earliest of the 'created Gods' (by Estelar), and therefor predates mortal worship, so its possible she existed pre-Dawn War, but just wasn't important enough to get mentioned (a child?)
So if we go back to what I came up with for the Elven Netbook (Elves of Faerūn) - that a large group of Drow accidentally wandered through the Underways (The Shadowdark) into Oerth's underdark, and settled and spread from there (although, we don't really have evidence of GH drow spreading beyond Erelhei-Cinlu*) - then Lolth may actually be a one-setting deity that got spread to another world without any impetus from her. Further, if Nerath really is the 'proto-setting' (we only saw a small part of it, and it was NEVER called 'a planet') as I believe, then that doesn't really count, because that would just be part of the original world everything originated from (so she would be 'native' to that world, which no longer exists). In fact, I just checked - she was the goddess of lies & spiders there, and only patron of the drow.
She's only been a 'big bad' on Toril (she was barely known on Oerth), and even then, would we even think that without the Drizzt novels? How much interaction has she had with other groups, gods, or the surface? An appearance in the Liriel books on Ruathym, IIRC, and then her poorly thought-out Demon Weave. Thats it. She waited some 35K+ years for her 'Rise of the Drow' and it just fizzled. So much for her being a 'big bad' in D&D. LOL
Corellon literally pointed a finger at her, changed her form, and banished her to the Abyss. I bet he couldn't do that to Cyric, who's been a god all of five minutes by comparison.
* Which is mentioned in an FR-specific source, which is why I think it has a connection to Realms Drow. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2018 19:23:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 00:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Corellon literally pointed a finger at her, changed her form, and banished her to the Abyss. I bet he couldn't do that to Cyric, who's been a god all of five minutes by comparison.
Just to note though, Corellon is like the "High God" of the Seldarine Pantheon. I'd imagine he has some special "controls" in place specific to what he can do to Seldarine gods. I'd imagine that Moradin, Annam, Yondalla, Garl Glittergold, Gruumsh, etc... have similar ability to affect gods within their pantheons more than other pantheons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 01:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.
-This is using newer lore to explain an older lore thing, but it was revealed in those books that Faerzress' were created specifically to "target" Drow. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 01:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.
-This is using newer lore to explain an older lore thing, but it was revealed in those books that Faerzress' were created specifically to "target" Drow.
It doesn't, tho. Deep gnomes get similar abilities from faerzress. That newer lore doesn't make much sense and contradicts way too much stuff (like nearly everything from those novels, but w/e). For example, the faerzress predates the arrival of the elves on Toril, and it surely far predates the Descent. No way that it was created by the elves. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Feb 2018 01:39:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 03:23:02
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Couldn't we spin things so its all works?
Suppose Faerzress is some sort of 'elemental magic' node (and in FR magic = 'life', so basically a type of radiation that would 'add too much life' to something; ie., cancer, etc.). Like other nodes, they're part of the fabric of the universe. Now, Lolth being a god knows some of these inner workings. When she sees what the elves and Seldarine are trying to do to her people, she (and perhaps some of her playmates) tap into what the Elves are doing, and pervert the ritual.
Normal (surface) elves can derive sustenance from sunlight. This is probably more prevalent in their fey ancestry than it is today, but it is still there, almost like a vestigial ability. Elves need sunlight - it even says so in the CBoE. This is why they do not fare well in captivity. So rather then just turning this against them - making sunlight harmful and anathema to them, Lolth twists it so that what sunlight did for them before, the Faerzress - an existing power source - will do for them after the ritual. Now the Drow have become dependent upon the faerzress, in much the same way an addict needs their 'fix'.
Except Liriel mucked with all that - she used the Windwaker to somehow reattune the drow once again, so that now they derive sustenance from The Weave. This might be why Lolth was so desperate to create her own (Demon) Weave - she lost one of the major factors she used to control them (by being stuck in the underdark - in Drow cities - they were forced to live under the matriarchal theocracy that is drow society, with Lolth at the top of the food-chain). Post-Liriel, this is no longer the case, and drow can leave their settlements freely and even go to the surface if they want.
Drizzt was a special case - it has always been assumed by the fanbase that Mielikki used her own power to replace the normal Ranger abilities with ones identical to what he would have lost on the surface. I'm sure he must find it annoying, because now any drow can do the same thing (and he STILL doesn't get Ranger spells LOL). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2018 03:25:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 03:29:21
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As for deep gnomes, someone may have done something similar for them (considering gnomes are ALSO fey, they must need sunlight as well). Not sure who that would have been - the only person in the Gnome pantheon I am familiar with is Garl Glitterpants.
Anyhow, I've established that A) Faerzress nodes are ANCIENT, and B) Lolth may have attuned the drow to them at a later time, right when the descent occured or soon after. Thus, Drow (and others) might believe Faerzress was created by Lolth for them, but that's not entirely accurate. What she created was the link between drow and Faerzress.
EDIT:
So them turning black was most likely an unexpected side-effect of them being attuned to Faerzress. I think what Faerzress is is 'Raw Magic' (actually chunks of the fused 'bodies' of The Ymir and The Gaea). The radiation is just too powerful for mortals to handle, and it instantly 'burns up' normal matter. When the Netherese got ahold of some of it, it took the form of a thick, gel-like BLACK substance (very similar to raw petroleum or tar). So things turn 'black' when infused with Raw magic, and drow turned black and were able to use Faerzess, so that's why I see a possible connection. Lolth managed to replace their 'Fey magic' resonance with raw magic resonance.
Hmmmmm... I think I just managed to accidentally reason-out that Sunlight = The Fey Power Source.
I may have to make the Feywild a Supernal... Ki? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2018 03:39:39 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 03:32:00
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There's still the matter that there's no way that the elves created the faerzress, tho. The concepts that those novels tried to introduce really can't be reconciled with the rest of Realmslore. They are flat-out contradictory, you either take one or the other.
Aside from that, there's still the fact that deep gnomes are affected by faerzress in a very similar way (it leads me to think that it's a natural reaction of fey-related beings to faerzress), and that the drow could indeed live just fine far from the faerzress. They could use divine and arcane magic unrelatedly to that, they never felt any impulse to go back and get their fix. They merely lost their basic racial powers and spell resistance. They also got to retain that, alongside other faerzress-based magic, after Liriel did her thing. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Feb 2018 03:36:09 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 04:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT:
So them turning black was most likely an unexpected side-effect of them being attuned to Faerzress.
The Dark elves were black before the Descent. There again it appears they were green as to more recent lore. I have a hard time getting the editions to come close to making sense. The because they are deities only works so well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 11:41:02
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Maybe I'm some editions late, but...
If you consider some powers the drow have (darkness, etc.) it is probable that their very nature is kind of half-fiendish (maybe by influence of the faerzress). Besides, have you noticed that the original (human) cambions do look somehow like drow? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 12:39:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Couldn't we spin things so its all works?
Suppose Faerzress is some sort of 'elemental magic' node (and in FR magic = 'life', so basically a type of radiation that would 'add too much life' to something; ie., cancer, etc.). Like other nodes, they're part of the fabric of the universe. Now, Lolth being a god knows some of these inner workings. When she sees what the elves and Seldarine are trying to do to her people, she (and perhaps some of her playmates) tap into what the Elves are doing, and pervert the ritual.
Normal (surface) elves can derive sustenance from sunlight. This is probably more prevalent in their fey ancestry than it is today, but it is still there, almost like a vestigial ability. Elves need sunlight - it even says so in the CBoE. This is why they do not fare well in captivity. So rather then just turning this against them - making sunlight harmful and anathema to them, Lolth twists it so that what sunlight did for them before, the Faerzress - an existing power source - will do for them after the ritual. Now the Drow have become dependent upon the faerzress, in much the same way an addict needs their 'fix'.
Except Liriel mucked with all that - she used the Windwaker to somehow reattune the drow once again, so that now they derive sustenance from The Weave. This might be why Lolth was so desperate to create her own (Demon) Weave - she lost one of the major factors she used to control them (by being stuck in the underdark - in Drow cities - they were forced to live under the matriarchal theocracy that is drow society, with Lolth at the top of the food-chain). Post-Liriel, this is no longer the case, and drow can leave their settlements freely and even go to the surface if they want.
Drizzt was a special case - it has always been assumed by the fanbase that Mielikki used her own power to replace the normal Ranger abilities with ones identical to what he would have lost on the surface. I'm sure he must find it annoying, because now any drow can do the same thing (and he STILL doesn't get Ranger spells LOL).
And said radiation had a bad affect on their brains in many cases, causing them to be even more paranoid and xenophobic... and if anyone ever cut their heads open they'd see most dark elves have some kind of cranial cancer. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 12:37:36
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The primary - really only source about the power of any of the elven gods way back when is Elaine's Evermeet novel. In it, even in the beginning Lloth was more powerful on Toril than her children, as well as Malar - though it seemed (and this IS an assumption) she was significantly less powerful than That Which Lurks. Now - we really do not see ANY of her faithful in that novel before modern times, but that doesn't mean they are not out there somewhere in the 99.999999 percent of the world we never see in the book. Also, it should be noted that as part of that books structure, literally ALL of the stories that are presented as happening in real time are Danilo's version of elvish legends. There could be 0 truth to all of it, and as such 0 truth to literally every other source that refers to them (GHotR, for example). 3rd E sort of regurgitated the stories as fact a few years later, but who knows - might all just be so much elvish tall tales.
The other thing we saw for the first time in that novel was Wendonai working to corrupt the dark elves (and getting schooled :P). This was expanded into the tainted bloodline thing much later, only to have several novels written within the year basically undoing that taint in one way or another. It played out as sort of a Keystone Kops episode in my mind, with drow gods running around everywhere at once tripping over themselves and their followers and dying and being reborn and then killing each other and dying and being reborn and BLAH... Now that background music will be stuck in my head. Oh yeah, don't forget the fact that drow priests are now casting high magic without any training. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 14:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The primary - really only source about the power of any of the elven gods way back when is Elaine's Evermeet novel. In it, even in the beginning Lloth was more powerful on Toril than her children, as well as Malar - though it seemed (and this IS an assumption) she was significantly less powerful than That Which Lurks. Now - we really do not see ANY of her faithful in that novel before modern times, but that doesn't mean they are not out there somewhere in the 99.999999 percent of the world we never see in the book. Also, it should be noted that as part of that books structure, literally ALL of the stories that are presented as happening in real time are Danilo's version of elvish legends. There could be 0 truth to all of it, and as such 0 truth to literally every other source that refers to them (GHotR, for example). 3rd E sort of regurgitated the stories as fact a few years later, but who knows - might all just be so much elvish tall tales.
She was more powerful than her children before she betrayed Corellon. After that, Vhaeraun and even Eilistraee were more influent than her when she arrived on Toril. Mostly because she had absolutely 0 influence on that world after she was banished.
quote:
The other thing we saw for the first time in that novel was Wendonai working to corrupt the dark elves (and getting schooled :P). This was expanded into the tainted bloodline thing much later, only to have several novels written within the year basically undoing that taint in one way or another. It played out as sort of a Keystone Kops episode in my mind, with drow gods running around everywhere at once tripping over themselves and their followers and dying and being reborn and then killing each other and dying and being reborn and BLAH... Now that background music will be stuck in my head.
The un-tainting thing didn't even work. Only some hundred drow among were affected by the high magic spell, as explicitly said in those novels. That's a minority even among the followers of Eilistraee, as lesser god(desse)s have about a few thousand followers (and her followers were the only ones affected, aside from those 2-3 guys who were not tainted to begin with). In fact both the goddess and most of her followers are still drow right now.
That said, as time passed, the taint didn't really do anything except making the elven gods not want the drow in their realm. Over 10k+ years, no drow deity has ever worked to undo it in any way. Even Eilistraee *never* cared about transforming or "cleansing" the drow with some kind of magic--that simply isn't what she's about, and she didn't even make a single move towards it, not a hint, nothing.
Until WotC wanted to prepare the drow for 4e, at least, so they had to make those novels filled with an incredible amount of contradictions and--at times--outright nonsense. Even then, it wasn't Eilistraee herself, but her mage followers who wanted to undo it (Eilistraee even withdrew her guidance at some point during the spell).
So, the drow pantheon never really cared about the drow being tainted, mostly because it means little. It probably meant more back at the times of Ilythiir, but it clearly lost its effects over the generations.
quote:
Oh yeah, don't forget the fact that drow priests are now casting high magic without any training.
AFAIK, they still can't. It was a mage follower of Eilistraee who did that, he did it only because he found that kiira, and he even failed (since his spell didn't do what he intended it to do, as I explained above--but that might have been due to Eilistraee or whoever interfering with it).
That said, most of what happened in those novels, including the ritual thing, has been essentially ignored and then undone (or outright deleted) by WotC. Personally, I really don't think that they are a good source to build other lore or to make speculations. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Feb 2018 14:06:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 20:28:57
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Here's the thing - and most of this is going to be extrapolation from what little sources we have dealing with this sort of thing, and conversations with Ed (here and elsewhere) about the 'nature of divinity', and also a little input from other designers (probably mostly Rich Baker) back when I was regular on the WotC forums*, among other folks. In other words, count this as my personal 'homebrewed' rendition, but with LOTS of research behind the theories involved.
Gods (and I am using the term in the broadest sense, to include EVERYTHING of exarch-tier or higher) don't have any power source when they first arrive on a world (within a setting/Crystal Sphere). They DO have the power they came with. Picture this being akin to traveling abroad and having a battery power-tool with you... but you forgot to bring the adapter-cables so you could plug it in when you arrived at your destinations. Now, when you go to Africa or wherever, you might have the niftiest screwgun, and be able to drill holes through tempered steel is seconds, to everyone's amazement, but the more you use it, and the harder you use it, the more it 'runs down'. Eventually, the guy with the primitive stick and twine method of drilling into wood is going to be better than you, because your drill bit isn't even moving, or just barely moving. You go from being the 'kewl kid' on the block to being a joke with your non-functioning tool.
So you need a power source. The sooner you set one up that works for you (and your tools), the better. Lolth arrives with her combo-kit of amazing 24V tools, and out-classes just about everyone (except Gaunadaur... but he still uses corded tools LOL), but if she doesn't 'set up shop' SAP, she's gonna be in trouble, and depending upon how much power she uses up and how quickly she dos that, she is soon going to be out-classed be even demigods and arch-somethings. And in this scenario, if you haven't figured it out yet, 'religion' is the power source. Some Gods - mostly primordials - can gain power in a sphere without an established religion, because their portfolios cover more basic, natural aspects of the universe. Someone like Lolth doesn't have that, though.
So while you can say, "she was uber-powerful when she arrived" (and I am clearly NOT seeing that in that novel at all), and perhaps that might be true from whatever 'world' she came from (which could have just been her own godly demesne... which DOES 'count' toward your power-base), she would quickly start to 'dwindle' as soon as she arrived, because even without using an ostentatious demonstrations of power, she still needs to maintain her avatar. This is like having a car alarm - it is constantly drawing power, even when in 'off' mode, so if you don't start your car at least once a week, you could wind up with problems (and I am using this example because precisely that happened to me recently - I hadn't started a vehicle for six weeks, and then it wouldn't start - I had forgotten all about the alarm-drain). So, if all lolth did was sit in faerūn quietl on a chair (and I'm pretty certain she didn't), eventually her avatar would 'run down', and if fizzled completely (ceased to exist), she would have to 'heal' that part of her and not be able to recreate one (for that slot) for quite some time (I think I once guestimated a year). Anyhow, my point is, it doesn't really matter how powerful someone is when they arrive somewhere, they had better setup a power-base as fast as they can, because that 'unnatural' state of being (within that Sphere or plane) will soon start to harm them, and they are at a great disadvantage compared to established deities, even if those gods are normally of a lesser 'tier' than the new arrival. Home-field advantage is everything in godhood.
So like any good online porn story, 'mom' shows up at the frathouse party to drag her kids home, but soon finds herself in one of the bedrooms on her back.
And if you think thats a gross analogy, bear in mind that right after her arrival, Lolth started 'having relations' with K'narlist, and managed to get him to get his people behind her (pun intended LOL). She did what she had to do to establish herself quickly. Don't think of her poorly, though... ALL gods are prostitutes. Even the males. Mystra, anyone?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2018 20:40:18 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 08:30:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
there's really no reason why there shouldn't be drow'ri.
My point is, there probably are many, but the difference in visibility is great. While existence of a handful of fey'ri clans was enough of a reason for the whole war/extreme posturing/burying alive mess, some drow being fiend-blooded just isn't a "big deal". Or perhaps not even noticeable most of the time (after but a few generations), unless one knows exactly what to look for.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Eilistraee's followers are at least a few thousands, being her a lesser power.
Much more, being her a lesser power. Dedicated worship 10-12% of all drow. All worship 22%, with more than 1/7 on top of that from worshipers other than drow.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
After all... WHY does faerzress affect drow and only drow in this way.
I'd rather consider whether phenomena can be specific variations of a more general trend, when possible. All elves (as somewhat magical creatures) seem to have a thing for some sort of radiance - starlight/moonlight/sunlight. So when the drow were forcibly disconnected from their old fount of "magic vitamins", why they would not cling to the closest strong source of something similar?
Of course, this does have really funny implications.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Accept for one problem - she was a Demon-Queen when WE were first introduced to her, and no matter how much you fudge the timelines between GH and FR, that can't have been more than a hundred and fifty years ago.
I don't accept it's a problem unless it can be demonstrated to actually be meaningful, rather than some Clueless hostile to the entity in question being duped.
Also, if some Greater powers (in their own home) may act as effectively (locally on Prime) lesser deities due to low involvement with mortals (Elemental Lords), why multi-sphere deities won't vary in effective power level with waxing and waning connection?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
makes it more likely that she'd let her followers have all sorts of interactions with demons -- including horizontal ones.
Why just "horizontal ones" if they can levitate? 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Except Liriel mucked with all that - she used the Windwaker to somehow reattune the drow once again, so that now they derive sustenance from The Weave. This might be why Lolth was so desperate
Not the drow, Faerzess-powered magic.
But it merely stopped being incompatible with sunlight, which resolved a "hardware conflict" (which used to sometimes cause wild magic), either between the Weave and Faerzess or within the Weave (if Faerzess-based quasimagic is a part of it rather than a separate secondary power source). Nothing else got changed.
Also, Lolth quite obviously supported this mission. All 3 of Liriel's goddesses did, for different reasons. Hence the mess. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 12:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for deep gnomes, someone may have done something similar for them (considering gnomes are ALSO fey, they must need sunlight as well). Not sure who that would have been - the only person in the Gnome pantheon I am familiar with is Garl Glitterpants.
A minor correction, Markustay, since I consider myself a resident Gnomish expert.
The Gnome pantheon's chief deity is Garl GlitterGOLD.
Garl Glitterpants happens to be his long-lost twin brother, whereupon Garl Glitterpants is the Gnomish God of Disco.
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Fiend-blooded drow?
