quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

quote:

---

Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

which were all lifted from the The Shadowrift, which is one of the best damn RL products around.

---

Which is weakly related at best to ey elsewhere.

---

Seriously? Its one of the few RL products I liked. that, and the monstrous compendiums. I guess if you aren't playing ravenloft your reasons for liking something shift.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

so I got rid of it (but accidental left that one) Eladrin and Shee would both mean the same thing, except that some Eladrin can be Sith... so you can see why I ditched it). Apologies.
And all three are pronounced exactly the same, and sound the same to the human ear, which makes it very confusing to non-Fey. When Fey speak to one another, there is a sub-level of empathy going on, almost like low-frequency, that becomes part of their language - it gives their words the descriptors other languages need (like adverbs and adjectives). Thus, when a Fey says 'Shee' (thats how it is pronounced), another fey knows precisely what branch they are talking about.

---

What's #1250 on Mr. Welch's list, again?

---

I don't get the reference.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Hi Elaine!

Did you ever notice the similarity between the alliance of Gruumsh and Lolth to the alliance of Melkor and Ungoliant?

Please don't mind my ramble...

The reason I ask is that I'm getting ready to produce a book that focuses on an Orc World to publish on DMs Guild. The Orc World is the one the Gray Orcs that were part of the Orcgate Wars came from; and I wanted to build into the lore a reason that Elves and Orcs came from that world at the same time in c. -27,000 DR when portals were opened to it by the Fey to bring the Elves.

Ed said in the Old Grey Box that Elves couldn't remember a time when goblinoids weren't testing the borders of Elf lands...and so I wanted to work it in.

I can't touch any IP of the Tolkien estate obviously; but if I build on YOUR story from Evermeet, then I can build a story of why Gruumsh and Corellon hate each other so badly before the elves of Faerun even knew about the Seldarine.

quote:

From A Grand History of the Realms:

c. –27000 DR
Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time)...


My problem is that I feel like I NEED to pick your brain about their early animosity. Care to share any thoughts?

---

This might not be what you're looking for, but the truth is, I consider the early chapters of EVERMEET to be mythology and folklore, not history. The story is carefully framed to suggest that approach, in that it's written by a human bard who has limited access to elvish lore. Also, as a longtime student of history, folklore, and religion, I understand that there's a difference between Truth and fact.

The chapters in EVERMEET that deal with gods and creation stories deal with Truth. I see such beliefs as "elves and orcs were born of the blood shed by the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh" to be a metaphor for a longstanding conflict, not a literal statement or a historical fact. So I'm never quite sure how to answer gamers who email me to ask how MANY drops of blood were shed by each of the combatants, and whether those drops corresponded to elf and orc creation on a one-to-one ration, and also, since elves and orcs existed BEFORE that battle, how do I reconcile these two "facts?"

Here's how: When it comes to Forgotten Realms theology, I'm not a fundamentalist. I don't believe that every tale told is literally true. That's a difficult position to support when gods are given stats, but it's the approach I take.

So. If you're writing a history of this early time, my advice is to create whatever scenario you prefer. The true story of the warlord (or warlords) who fought against Saxon invadors might bear little resemblance to the tales of King Arthur and his shining Camelot, but it would still be a story worth hearing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

But considering that the aarakocra now looks nothing like the aarakocra of old, I guess it doesn't matter.

---

quote:

---

We can give those races any look we want just so long as they basically look like lizard men and some kind of bird folk.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Looking through Evermeet, when Araushnee starts plotting with Malar, she mentions that Elves exist on Toril, and that Orcs exist on the world as well. This happened before Araushnee was cast from the Seldarine, which means it happened circa -30,000 DR. This is problematic because AGHotR states that the first Elves came in -27,000 DR. Given the inconsistencies

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayrik

Elves in Dragonlance are even snootier than usual about segregating themselves from each other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayrik

Elves in Dragonlance are even snootier than usual about segregating themselves from each other.

---

Yup. Not enough to leave Kagonesti (warning, near-WoW grade "art") alone, however.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalor Darden

So with this we can say that the c. -30,000 DR of the War of the Seldarine is indeed simply an estimate and not a hard date at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TBeholder

Which the elves overheard and told one Danilo Thann. This be a prime example of "-...Myth! -Yeth?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalor Darden

So with this we can say that the c. -30,000 DR of the War of the Seldarine is indeed simply an estimate and not a hard date at all.

---

-While that works within the context of Evermeet, everything in AGHotR unless otherwise specified is a hard date. It gets convoluted if you want to stay as close to canon as possible. But like I said, there are inconsistencies in the early Elven history entries of AGHotR that appeared in the timeline that appeared when it became a physical book, as opposed to the PDF, so I guess you have to take it with a grain of salt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

So we got a LOT of history that happened in the 'Before Time', and if you read ZeromaruX's excellent History of the Nentir Vales (which includes TONS of proto-history that is now canon D&D history), you'll see that Corellon's discovery of the Feywild and later creation of the Elves happened in the before-Time. Including his first fight with Gruumsh (but the fight that ended their relationship happened during the later Godwar - they were allies during the Dawn War. Don't think that's so amazing, because Asmodeus was one of their staunchest allies as well. Just like the U.S. was allies with Russia during WW2 - you don't have to like each other to have a common enemy.

So we got this 'wishy-washy' Before-Time thing going on invlving a LOT of our earliest Elven history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

-- that's all pretty snooty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Karsus

To my knowledge, though, even though everything in the book is presented as myth and story from unreliable narrators, nothing in sources elsewhere presented as hard canon have gone against them as far as I know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Just like the U.S. was allies with Russia during WW2 - you don't have to like each other to have a common enemy.

---

quote:

---

So, all that "the timeline is a 'best guess' (at best)" aside, we also have changes made to canon to fit WotC's current narrative, and although that's thinking meta-game, the truth is, the timeline is only as 'factual' as the last sourcebook... and we all know it. The major changes and distortions the 4e lore - which is now our lore - means we have to 'reinterpret' (rewrite) our own canon to best fit the current WotC narrative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

We only know for certain that one day, in the ancient past, Corellon ripped off Gruumsh's eye, and that is all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TBeholder

The other choice is to put a great effort into explaining every single thing every single lazy hack let slip in at some time, and run over robust lore for this... and then do it again from scratch the next week.

---

quote:

---

There was a time when the stars glittered in a night sky that was devoid of brightness; and instead the world was bathed in a twinkling eternal twilight. In this world lived the Orcs who were its masters. There were no gods, demons or other beings greater than the Orcs in this time. Orcs were part of the world, and it has always been so that Orcs should rule the world because it was the world that gave them form and lifted them out of the ground to tend to the world as its sons and daughters.

In time, other races came which were like the beasts that the Orcs had hunted for untold generations. From the mountains crawled stunted and hairy beings called Vak that were greedy and would try to take all the treasures of the earth from the Orcs. Some Vak were greedy for iron, gold and silver; while the smallest Vak wanted the glittering stones of the ground. All Vak were greedy and wanted to take the mountains and hills from the Orcs. The Orcs relented and left the mountains and hills to dwell in the Forests and Plains.

Later came the Fral who had no bodies. The Fral were the most hated enemies of the Orcs because they would steal Orc bodies and take them for their own! The Fral would twist the bodies of the Orcs and turn them into vile sneaky things. The Fral wanted to hide even from the stars but hated the ground and so hid beneath the trees where they would lay in wait for the Orcs and kill them to take their bodies and turn them into the hated Galug. Eventually all the Fral were gone after they had stolen Orc bodies and the many faced race of the Galug was all that was left. They forced the Orcs from the forests and so then the Orcs had only the open sky; but still the Orcs were content to dwell under the stars.

But yet another race came from among the beasts of the fields, and they were a plague worse even than the Vak or the Fral before them. They were stealers of ideas and perverters of the truth and they bred as rapidly as the beasts of the fields and they began to steal all the ideas of the Orcs and all the lands as well. The hated Sharaz stole the idea of Magic from the Orcs and used it in horrible ways. They forced the Orcs into the farthest places.

Orcs tried to go back to the mountains to live free of the Sharaz plague, but the Vak were greedy despite not needing all the mountains and they killed the Orcs that tried to go there. The Orcs tried to go to the Forests to flee the Sharaz, but the Galug were greedy and would not share the lands beneath the trees. Many orcs died in the great waters as the beasts of the waters were numerous and the Orcs could not live in the waters.

Many generations of Orcs lived and died before the coming of the most powerful Orc who ever lived. His name is not spoken, but his might was such that all other Orcs had to acknowledge his wisdom and his power over all things. His true name is lost, but as a boy he had been teased by other boys and called Womanly; for he and his brother that wore magical rings were both as fair as a woman. This drove him to become the greatest warrior the Orcs had ever known though. He could fight like no other, and even mastered the power of the world becoming the most gifted of all shapers of magic. He became so powerful that he no longer needed to sleep and could fight forever if he wished. He became the leader of all Orcs and they gave him the title of “He Who Never Sleeps” to acknowledge his guardianship and unwavering loyalty to the protection of his people.

He declared to the Vak that the Orcs would live in the mountains and his spear rent asunder the mountains and hills and the Orcs then dwelt within them. He declared to the Galug that the Orcs would live in the Forests and his magic repelled the Galug and they were forced to let the Orcs live in the Forests again. His eyes turned on the Sharaz and they would not relent to his wisdom or acknowledge his power because they were numerous and had great magic which they had stolen.

And so it was that He Who Never Sleeps went against the Sharaz and made war on them with his brothers and his sons and his cousins and his friends. His brother came from the Forests with his magical rings and his vassals the Galug who He Who Never Sleeps had made him lord over. His brother who was later slain against the Sharaz came from the Mountains with his magic and his Vak who He Who Never Sleeps had made him lord over. His sons, most of who died in war against the Sharaz, came up from the earth in the plains where they had dwelt and made war beside their father and they brought with them their Orcs who He Who Never Sleeps had made them the lords of.

The war against the Sharaz was great and many Orcs died. The Vak died in their suits of treasure and the Galug died even hiding behind their trees and bushes. Orcs died with honor on their face as they did not hide. They did not hide in suits of treasure or in shame behind trees and bushes. The Sharaz, with their theft of ideas, died in suits of treasure behind trees and bushes. But because of their theft of ideas, fewer and fewer Sharaz died as the battles raged across the world.

In their greatest theft, the Sharaz began to steal the stars from the sky and they forged them together into one great and bright star. They set this star in the sky and it shed too much light. It hurt the eyes of the Orcs who lived beneath the stars and loved them. The Sharaz reveled in their bright star and the war raged on as Orcs could not see well in the bright light of the Sharaz Star.

He Who Never Sleeps feared that all the stars of the sky would be stolen by the Sharaz and added to their Too Bright Star and so he worked a great magic to ensure that he would not be blinded by their light. He took many stars from the sky and he placed them within one of his eyes. With the light of the stars in his eye the Too Bright Star could not blind him. The power of the Stars gave him great power too, and he became even mightier than before; and yet the war against the Sharaz continued.

He Who Never Sleeps saw the death of so many Orcs because the Vak and the Galug were treacherous and would not fight for their Lords as the Orcs fought for He Who Never Sleeps. He became enraged at their cowardice in the face of the enemy. He began to fear that his last brother would be slain by the Sharaz and so he made a great sacrifice on the day that the Sharaz were about to win the war.

Despite the power of his Spear which could reach across the plains and slay the Sharaz in great numbers, the Sharaz had stolen his idea and had spears as well. Despite the strength of his flesh the Sharaz had stolen the idea for the suits of treasure worn by the Vak and became harder to kill. Despite the ranks of the Orcs slaying the Sharaz, the Sharaz had stolen the ideas of the Galug and used arrows to slay the Orcs from afar. There was no weapon that He Who Never Sleeps had that the Sharaz had not stolen; and so He Who Never Sleeps, who’s aim was always true with only one eye, tore out his own star-filled eye.

He took out his Starry Eye and forged it into a great and mighty weapon. The First Sword was made from the Eye of He Who Never Sleeps and with it he at last was able to humble the Sharaz, for they were too scared to place stars in their eyes and take them out to make swords of their own. He Who Never Sleeps used the many stars in his eye to make other swords for his Orcs and they used the swords to force the Sharaz from the fields at last; but they did this all alone for the Vak had fled to their mountains and the Galug to their forests.

He Who Never Sleeps still did not need sleep; but he was weary and so rested. But in this he was betrayed for he had left his brother the Ring Wearer to watch over the Orcs while he rested for just a short while.

The Ring Wearer looked at all the things that the Sharaz had caused to pass and especially their magic. He learned their magic and his power grew. He turned to his own Orcs and taught them the magic of the Sharaz and wishing to be more like the Sharaz they coveted the Too Bright Light which was still hanging in the sky. The Ring Wearer learned the power of the Too Bright Star and as the Sharaz had been forced to flee he mastered its brightness; but then his Shadow fell behind him as he accepted the power of the Too Bright Star.

The Shadow was a horrible thing, as it twisted and changed to suit whatever direction it fell upon as The Ring Wearer walked around the Too Bright Star. The brightness shined down on all the world and He Who Never Sleeps said that the Too Bright Star must be extinguished so that the Orcs would not be hurt by its light and cast terrible shadows. He turned and saw however that his brother stood gladly in the light of the Too Bright Star and his heart knew rage that the Sharaz had corrupted the last of his own brothers who was said to be so very fair that even women were not as beautiful as The Ring Wearer.

As powerful as The Ring Wearer had become, he knew that the power of He Who Never Sleeps was greater still because of the Sword of Stars made from his eye. Fearing that he would lose his shadow and the power that he had gained from the Too Bright Star, The Ring Wearer decided that he would betray his own flesh.

He used his magic to cast his shadow over the Sword of Stars and took it from He Who Never Sleeps. With the power of the Too Bright Star, his magical rings and now his brother’s Sword of Stars, The Ring Wearer was equal at last to He Who Never Sleeps but feared he would lose the Sword of Stars back to his brother and so brought war against He Who Never Sleeps despite the sacrifice that had been made to create the Sword of Stars.

The Ring Wearer took those Orcs who would follow him and they fled to the forests that He Who Never Sleeps had made The Ring Wearer lord over. There he brought forth the cowardly Galug and taught them the magic of the Too Bright Star and gave to them swords from the Sword of Stars and taught them the magic of his magical rings. His Orcs, twisted by their own shadows, became Not-Orcs who chose to carry the light of the Too Bright Star inside them so that they could cast their shadow over every direction.

At last fully rested, He Who Never Sleeps rose to war against The Ring Wearer so that his Sword of Stars could be reclaimed. His Orcs followed him with their swords and their spears; but the war against the Sharaz had tested their numbers; and the desertion of the Not-Orcs who followed The Ring Wearer further had reduced the host of He Who Never Sleeps. The Not-Orcs with their Swords and Spears and the Light of the Too Bright Star still feared the host of He Who Never Sleeps and they betrayed their ancestors by going to the Vak and learned from them the art of suits of treasure which made them harder to kill. Without realizing their folly, the Not-Orcs had become as had been the Sharaz.

The battles that were fought were the worst times for the Orcs. Worse than when the Vak had first forced them form the Mountains and the Galug had forced the Orcs from the Forests and even worse than when the Orcs had battled the Sharaz. The Orcs were forced to battle the Orcs that were Not-Orcs who were as the Sharaz but who had Orc Shadows instead of Sharaz Shadows. The Ring Wearer then allied with the Vak and brought them too as allies against the Orcs and then went to the remainder of the now broken Sharaz who also still revered the Too Bright Star. He Who Never Sleeps fought and fought with all his might. He brought the remainder of his sons against his brother and all of their sons and the sons of the last. All seemed lost again however, for all the sons were not as mighty in number as they had once been and He Who Never Sleeps was only the equal of The Ring Wearer who had stolen the Sword of Stars.

As his people died, He Who Never Sleeps sought out a way to defeat his brother The Ring Wearer who was called the Star Stealer by the Orcs who followed He Who Never Sleeps. Taking the secret of the Sharaz he found the answers. He taught his Orcs the Secrets:

Stealing. As the Sharaz had done, Orcs must take all things that can protect the Orc and kill the enemy. Armor, Weapons, Fire, Magic, Women and any other thing that can be taken and be used to fight must be either stolen or created; but let the enemy do the work and steal from them instead so that war can be focused on.

Fury. With Fury no foe can sustain his defense against you. As the wild bull defends his herd with fury, so too does the Orc make war. Anger sets the Orc against his foes and allows him to do whatever is needed. Fury will take the women of the foe and make her the woman of the Orc who will take her as his own.

Flesh. As the beast hunts and devours his prey, so too does the Orc treat with his enemy. Each dead foe feeds the hunger of the Orc host in war and brings fear to their hearts. Breeding as often as possible increases the numbers of Orcs; and so breeding with the Flesh of the Foe will also bring more Orcs.

With these things the Orcs began to overcome their enemies. They stole the secrets of the enemy and used them. Their fury abounded and they crushed the enemy before them with their increasing strength. They took the women of the enemy and made Orcs from their bosoms; but from the Not-Orcs they could not make children because He Who Never Sleeps cast a great curse on his brother and the Not-Orcs that followed him allowing them few children. The enemy was frightened; they could not steal anything more from the Orcs because they were the first who had stolen and had nothing left to steal. They could not match the animal-like fury of the Orcs who were now stronger than any who stood in their way. They were afraid to eat the flesh of the Orcs because they were weak in their hearts and they could not mate with the women of the Orcs and make more of their kind because Orc women only make Orcs.

At last came the Final Battle. The Star Stealer used all of his strength but still could not defeat his now more powerful brother even after stealing the Sword of Stars from He Who Never Sleeps. As far as could be seen the Orcs who had grown again in numbers and strength, who now wore the treasure suits of the Vak, fired arrows like the Balug, cast spells like the Sharaz and were strong like the beasts of the field in their fury could not be stopped. He Who Never Sleeps, now even greater than when he held the Sword of Stars because he had taken on the strength of the beasts and grew out his tusks and ate the flesh of any who fell before him could not be stopped by his betraying brother. He Who Never Sleeps took the Too Bright Star from the sky and fashioned it into an ever burning torch and burned down the forests and poured its fire into the mountains. The Galug fled to the side of the Star Stealer and with them went the Vak who had been chased from the mountains. The remaining Sharaz held counsel at the Star Stealer’s side and all decided they must find a way to flee the wrath of He Who Never Sleeps.

As the Orcs encircled the last of their foes and He Who Never Sleeps demanded the return of his Sword of Stars; the Not-Orcs who followed the Star Stealer who knew the greatest magic stood with the Balug, Vak and Sharaz who knew great magic too and they cast the greatest magic they could to save their pitiful treacherous lives. They fled from the World into far places where they hoped the Orcs would not follow.

He Who Never Sleeps stood then among his Orcs and knew even greater Fury. He had been robbed of a final victory against those who had persecuted and stolen from his people. He looked around and saw that his Orcs no longer looked like they had. He looked at his shield and saw his reflection and bellowed in rage unlike any heard before by an Orc despite all the evils that had been laid upon them since the time of their innocence. They heard the rage and they responded in kind, with all voices raised in rage against what had befallen them at the hands of the greedy and treacherous.

He Who Never Sleeps stood then among his Orcs and forced from them The Oath of the Orc which each swore to. Their voices rising in unison they echoed back his words: “Never will I stop conquering until all my foes are dead or I am. Every Vak, Balug, Sharaz and Not-Orc will die and only then will He Who Never Sleeps have his vengeance!”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayrik

Your Ekur-Gruumsh could differ from Realms-Gruumsh just as Realms-Tyr differs from Norse-Tyr.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayrik

Gruumsh is "He Who Watches" and "The One-Eyed God", not "He Who Is Half-Blinded" or "The Formerly-Two-Eyed God". Orcs/goblinoids maintain that Gruumsh always had two eyes, he was "born" that way. Only elves/fey/seldarine maintain that Corellon poked out one of Gruumsh's eyes, which is quite literally a fairy tale.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayrik

Gruumsh is "He Who Watches" and "The One-Eyed God", not "He Who Is Half-Blinded" or "The Formerly-Two-Eyed God". Orcs/goblinoids maintain that Gruumsh always had two eyes, he was "born" that way. Only elves/fey/seldarine maintain that Corellon poked out one of Gruumsh's eyes, which is quite literally a fairy tale.

---

-Interestingly, some 4e/5e era WotC product (because I've never seen it) depicts Gruumsh as cyclopian, with neither two eyes or one with an empty socket. I looked something up on the FR Wiki and that was the image on his page. Everything obviously is always up to artistic license, but it was an interpretation I've never seen (or even thought of) before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Interestingly, some 4e/5e era WotC product (because I've never seen it) depicts Gruumsh as cyclopian, with neither two eyes or one with an empty socket. I looked something up on the FR Wiki and that was the image on his page. Everything obviously is always up to artistic license, but it was an interpretation I've never seen (or even thought of) before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayrik

Gruumsh is "He Who Watches" and "The One-Eyed God", not "He Who Is Half-Blinded" or "The Formerly-Two-Eyed God". Orcs/goblinoids maintain that Gruumsh always had two eyes, he was "born" that way. Only elves/fey/seldarine maintain that Corellon poked out one of Gruumsh's eyes, which is quite literally a fairy tale.

---