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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 17:41:45
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I'm looking for information on when the Orcs first came to Faerun.
Looking for information that is Canon (in print from TSR or WotC only).
Essentially looking for first references of each group of Orcs:
Mountain Orcs
Gray Orcs
Ondonti
Orogs
Etc.
Thanks all!
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 17:43:35
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The first mention I've found so far of Mountain Orcs from Grand History of the Realms is:
Battle of the God's Theatre: The Gods'
Theater (Present Day: The Tunlands) on eastern Shantal Othreier
is the site of one of the largest and costliest of all the Crown
Wars' battles. Nearly 70,000 elves died at the hands of elven and
orcish enemies, as an orc horde 100,000 strong fell upon the
already-embattled elves. Aryvandaar won the day, and occupied
the northern half of Shantel Othreier. [TSR1165]
EDIT:
Actually found this:
quote:
c. 24400 DR
The elf city of Occidian is sacked by a horde of orcs led by the abyssal fiend Haeshkarr, which then attacks Sharlarion. The horde and Haeshkarr are defeated by the elves at great cost.
So...that's a long time ago; but when did they GET to Faerun |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 24 Jan 2018 18:13:35 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 17:47:27
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First mention of Gray Orcs:
-1076 DR to -1069 DR
The Orcgate Wars: The Orcgate opens in the
southern portion of the Plateau of Thay. Renegade Mulhorandi
wizards employ Imaskari portal magic to open planar gates to an
orc world. Hundreds of thousands of orcs inundate the northern
territories of both Mulhorand and Unther. Mulhorand hires Nar,
Raumathari, Rashemi, and Sossrim mercenaries to fight the orc
invaders. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 18:05:35
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In the Old Grey Box Ed writes:
quote:
ELMINSTER'S NOTES: The Goblin
Races have existed in the Realms as long
as the elves, for elvish histories have
mention of the various creatures as
brutish invaders harassing the borders
of their realms.
So Mountain Orcs as early as the elves then? As early as the first established Realm...and from where though? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 24 Jan 2018 18:05:56 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 19:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In the Old Grey Box Ed writes:
quote:
ELMINSTER'S NOTES: The Goblin
Races have existed in the Realms as long
as the elves, for elvish histories have
mention of the various creatures as
brutish invaders harassing the borders
of their realms.
So Mountain Orcs as early as the elves then? As early as the first established Realm...and from where though?
Research The Battle of God's Theater. Not only is the name extremely important (where many of my musing were given birth), but it also the earliest mention of an Orc Horde in the Realms, during the earliest parts of the Crown Wars.
This means Orcs were already EVERYWHERE (in the multiverse), because this would have occurred soon after the Sundering (on a cosmic scale of things). However, i think that battle may have been the first instance where they were recognized as a 'true threat'.
Now, to take my theories just a step further, if Orcs and Elves are really both just Fey offshoots (as I think they are, and at least one 4e article spun things in that direction, because Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers), then when the GHotR and Elaine's novel makes mention of other primitive elves already existing in Faerūn before the arrival of the Eladrin (fey/Gray Elves), they would also be including the Dokalfar... which were all the goblinoids - including Orcs - at that time.
In other words, we only start hearing about Orcs and Goblins at a certain point in time, because it was only after that point they were considered 'a separate thing'. The 'low' elves didn't differentiate between tribes of fey, but the haughty Eladrin sure as hell did. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2018 19:15:51 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 19:35:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In the Old Grey Box Ed writes:
quote:
ELMINSTER'S NOTES: The Goblin
Races have existed in the Realms as long
as the elves, for elvish histories have
mention of the various creatures as
brutish invaders harassing the borders
of their realms.
So Mountain Orcs as early as the elves then? As early as the first established Realm...and from where though?
Research The Battle of God's Theater. Not only is the name extremely important (where many of my musing were given birth), but it also the earliest mention of an Orc Horde in the Realms, during the earliest parts of the Crown Wars.
This means Orcs were already EVERYWHERE (in the multiverse), because this would have occurred soon after the Sundering (on a cosmic scale of things). However, i think that battle may have been the first instance where they were recognized as a 'true threat'.
Now, to take my theories just a step further, if Orcs and Elves are really both just Fey offshoots (as I think they are, and at least one 4e article spun things in that direction, because Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers), then when the GHotR and Elaine's novel makes mention of other primitive elves already existing in Faerūn before the arrival of the Eladrin (fey/Gray Elves), they would also be including the Dokalfar... which were all the goblinoids - including Orcs - at that time.
In other words, we only start hearing about Orcs and Goblins at a certain point in time, because it was only after that point they were considered 'a separate thing'. The 'low' elves didn't differentiate between tribes of fey, but the haughty Eladrin sure as hell did.
I'm following ya MT...but I did find this:
quote:
c. 24400 DR
The elf city of Occidian is sacked by a horde of orcs led by the abyssal fiend Haeshkarr, which then attacks Sharlarion. The horde and Haeshkarr are defeated by the elves at great cost.
The battle of God's Theatre happened thousands of years after this.
Like Dazzlerdal said, the earliest mention of Orcs is that they are led by Demons.
In particular, the demon Haeshkarr is a servant of Lolth. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 21:33:43
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-From a meta perspective, clearing up something like that is probably never going to happen.
-From an in-world perspective, given the propensity for Orcs to basically be savages, without books, records, and not all that much in permanent settlements, there probably will never be a clear answer, since there would be very few 'archeological' finds to go by. Races of Faerun said that they were brought to Abeir-Toril by portals from the Creator Races. We know that in -27,000, the Fey Creator Race opened portals that brought creatures over from the Plane of Faerie to mess with Dragons and undermine their control of the world. Putting those two tidbits together, perhaps Orcs were part of that migration. That means one of two things: Orcs were creatures that lived on the Plane of Faerie like the other creatures that the Fey Creator Race ported over, or the Fey Creator Race opened portals to Abeir-Toril to other worlds in addition to the Plane of Faerie, one of which would have been to where ever world those Orcs came from. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 21:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-From a meta perspective, clearing up something like that is probably never going to happen.
-From an in-world perspective, given the propensity for Orcs to basically be savages, without books, records, and not all that much in permanent settlements, there probably will never be a clear answer, since there would be very few 'archeological' finds to go by. Races of Faerun said that they were brought to Abeir-Toril by portals from the Creator Races. We know that in -27,000, the Fey Creator Race opened portals that brought creatures over from the Plane of Faerie to mess with Dragons and undermine their control of the world. Putting those two tidbits together, perhaps Orcs were part of that migration. That means one of two things: Orcs were creatures that lived on the Plane of Faerie like the other creatures that the Fey Creator Race ported over, or the Fey Creator Race opened portals to Abeir-Toril to other worlds in addition to the Plane of Faerie, one of which would have been to where ever world those Orcs came from.
So by taking what Ed said in the original OGB coupled with when elves came to Faerun, we can say that, roughly, at about -27,000 DR Orcs arrived in The Forgotten Realms... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 21:56:44
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-Seems to be.
-The only non-Creator Race derived race that exist in those early days but we don't have explanations of any kind as to how they got there are Phaerimm (mentioned in -33,800 DR), Titan (mentioned in -31,500 DR, before the rise of Giants, which took place around -30,000), Lammasu (mentioned in -30,700 DR), and Gnolls (mentioned in -30,400 DR). The Gnolls might be the most intriguing, since they had an entire realm, Urgnarash (which I know Mark has some homebrew musings on). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 24 Jan 2018 21:58:17 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 22:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...because Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers...
Can you point me to where this is laid out? I haven't had a chance to read it and don't know where to look. It would change a LOT of things for me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 22:22:09
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How far back, from any published source, does it mention Orcs? Not just from the Forgotten Realms...but anywhere published by TSR or WotC.
I've been looking over everything I can find for the first mention of them.
So far I've got back in about -27,000 DR for the Forgotten Realms.
Would they have been on Athas (Dark Sun) sooner than that?
Any other world sooner than that? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 01:40:27
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Orcs on Athas would likely have been one of the many races "evolved" from "halflings" in the Green Age. But it's not impossible for them to have arrived from elsewhere, like the Giths did.
The genocidal "Cleansing Wars" completely extinguished the orc races on Athas. Details are sparse, but what is really known is that Rajaat's objective was to exterminate ALL of the "impure" races (that is, everybody except purebred halflings and perhaps the kreen) and that orcs were one of races which ended up being systematically and completely destroyed. Not even a single orc was spared, no remnants of the race survive, although some non-canon material allows player characters to play members of a distantly diluted "half-orc" race (apparently these have an overwhelmingly human bloodline, hardly a drop of orc blood left, but they still express as "half-orcs" because their orc blood is so potent and so dominant).
I note that (early) 2E Dark Sun had a somewhat avant-garde outlook on the races. All the races (except kreen) could have unusual variation, although it was most pronounced on humans - humans could be hairless or hirsute, have bronze or brown or red or blue skin, could even have fur or scales, could have reptilian irises, or whatever - although not "too many" strange attributes and not "too much" bizarre deviation from the baseline, and of course these "different" humans still had all the same stats and mechanics as "normal" humans. While having more or less hair, rainbow skin, alien eyes, and maybe even a few bizarre body proportions doesn't necessarily mean you're another species it does mark you as something "different" ... unless you're a native of Athas (or Planescape). Seeing a merchant who looks like something out of anime or Star Wars is perfectly normal in Dark Sun, you'd naturally assume he was and treat him just like any other human. I think this was an experimental aspect of an experimental product, AD&D was exploring many different ideas (in rules, fluffs, and settings) at the time. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2018 02:14:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 02:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If its the same time as the elves and in the same region as the elves then why not from the same place (faerie). Doesnt mean the grey orcs came from the same place though (but also doesnt rule it out)
Yep, that orc world you were designing Dalor... it keeps the story simple. Elves flee the world by building or linking to portals. The orcs follow. At least that works for SOME of the elves. With all the various elven subraces, having one come from said world would seem to fit. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 02:44:53
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So we have the Fey bringing the first Elf to Faerun:
quote:
c. 27000 DR
Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time).
Interesting to me that it specifically says the Seldarine were "unknown at this time" to the elves.
I wish I had my Evermeet novel still...
Anyone remember when Gruumsh and Corellon supposedly fought?
If the first orcs did come with the first elves (because it doesn't say where the elves came from); then I have a good idea of how to handle things. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 03:18:37
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The context suggests that orcs came shortly after elves (and dwarves, and humans, etc) already settled their various domains in the Realms.
If orcs existed before that time then it could have somewhere "else" than Abeir-Toril, some magical or extraplanar breeding ground akin to those wherein the elves (and dwarves, and humans, etc) also derived.
The Seldarine, Corellon, and Gruumsh - along with many of their histories and battles - probably predated their peoples in the Realms. From memory to history to legend to myth, it seems more likely that the "true facts" would be distorted across untold spans of time and the bias of countless generations of retelling than that they would have been preserved intact. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2018 03:24:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 03:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...because Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers...
Can you point me to where this is laid out? I haven't had a chance to read it and don't know where to look. It would change a LOT of things for me.
Its in one of the 4e Dragon (online) articles. I don't recall which issue. I'll have to look for it. Its Dragon #408.
You'd think I would know, since it was my idea (the author asked me permission to use my idea, and he ran with it). So, yeah, obviously I like that piece of lore. LOL
ZeromaruX would know precisely where to find it - he indexed EVERYTHING 4e.
It was also written in 'story style' (like the earliest FR products), and also folklore (in-game), and thus you can take as true, or not true - which ever you like. However, most just accept it as actual canon now (it was written very well - still left enough ambiguous for you to tinker with, though).
In my original version, they were half-brothers. Twins, but with different fathers (and such things HAVE happened RW, to humans, so I can believe it of gods/Fey). Unfortunately, a LOT of that lore won't work anymore, because I had the Seldarine as the children of archfey, and now we know they came before the archfey. The Seldarine were among the earliest Estelar (Elder Gods) in existence. I have yet to rewrite it, because I am constantly tweaking all that (the easiest fix is that the guys I said were their fathers are now their sons, but that means they no longer need to be 'half' brothers, which fits the lore even better, now). I have it where Lolth is their cousin (all the gods were related back then, so that didn't matter at all), but I don't know if that part made it into the article - probably not, considering the incestuous connotations (their initial disagreement was over HER). Its canon that there were two disagreements, and the second one is the one that ended in the bloody battle. Not sure how much canon info there is on the first one, and that's why I'm sticking with it was over Araushnee the Weaver (who watched the River of Time being created by chronos, and from that gained the inspiration to weave her Tapestries of Fate). Lolth was therefore the first god of destinies. Since her fall, no deity is allowed to preset the course of any one person's destiny (but Fate is a different matter - fate will happen no matter who was involved).
From the way the 4e/5e lore has been spinning things, it appears that Lolth and Gruumsh may not have been entirely in the wrong (the Evermeet novel spins it that way, because it is a tale of their history, as told by them). Corellon forsook the Dokalfar (Orc & drow alike, apparently), and it is for that reason the bitterness eventually turned violent (they called a truce to work together during the Dawn war, but then after that was over, they started to battle, and a lot of Gods who fought together in the first war fought against each other in the second - the Godswar.
The Dawn War was more about Law vs Chaos, and was much more 'primal', whereas the godswar was about petty vindictiveness and revenge for slights between former comrades, so more Good vs Evil. It wasn't so much a 'war' like the first one, as it was so many individuals squaring-off against their counterparts. Picture bar-fight, where it starts with two guys (Gruumsh & Corellon in this case), and then everyone is drawn in. Thats what happened there.
You really should read ZeromaruX's insanely good History of Everything (really his History of the Nentir Vale, but like half of it is the CANON cosmic history of the D&Dverse). There are copies of it floating around all over the place, but for the latest version, PM him. His research is beyond compare, like as good as Brian James' original GHotR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2018 03:39:46 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 03:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Anyone remember when Gruumsh and Corellon supposedly fought?
-There never was an actual 'date' ever mentioned; Time is very amorphous for multiplanar deities that existed basically before recorded history.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the first orcs did come with the first elves (because it doesn't say where the elves came from); then I have a good idea of how to handle things.
-While nothing explicitly says the Plane of Faerie, it's all but certain that that is where they came from, as all signs point there. The Fey Creator Race- which we know canonically were Fey creatures moved back and forth the Material Plane and the Plane of Faerie- opened the portals that brought the earliest Elven immigrants over (-27,000 DR). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 05:32:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm looking for information on when the Orcs first came to Faerun.
Looking for information that is Canon (in print from TSR or WotC only).
Essentially looking for first references of each group of Orcs:
Mountain Orcs
Gray Orcs
Ondonti
Orogs
Etc.
Thanks all!
So far as I know, most of what is known about ondonti can be found in the FR wiki entry on them.
The information is drawn from the Ruins of Zhentil Zeep boxed set (I believe that was the first in-print reference to them, on one of the Monstrous Compendium pages) and from the entry on the Gatekeeper's Crystal in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical; the first ondonti were orc orphans raised by priests of Eldath in Myth Ondath, the City of Peace. The city fell in 633 DR and the ondonti were survivors, so they've been around since then. Given that the survivors maintained a peaceful society, it implies this was already the norm for them, so I'd guess they go back at least a century before that. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jan 2018 05:33:42 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 06:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm looking for information on when the Orcs first came to Faerun.
Looking for information that is Canon (in print from TSR or WotC only).
Essentially looking for first references of each group of Orcs:
Mountain Orcs
Gray Orcs
Ondonti
Orogs
Etc.
Thanks all!
So far as I know, most of what is known about ondonti can be found in the FR wiki entry on them.
The information is drawn from the Ruins of Zhentil Zeep boxed set (I believe that was the first in-print reference to them, on one of the Monstrous Compendium pages) and from the entry on the Gatekeeper's Crystal in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical; the first ondonti were orc orphans raised by priests of Eldath in Myth Ondath, the City of Peace. The city fell in 633 DR and the ondonti were survivors, so they've been around since then. Given that the survivors maintained a peaceful society, it implies this was already the norm for them, so I'd guess they go back at least a century before that.
I wrote them into a story I just made as coming to Faerun in 613 DR, the Year of the Glaring Eye, as orc children brought to Myth Ondath.
I may have to change the year to earlier...because what you say makes sense that they would have been established for some time before the city was destroyed. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 09:35:26
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According to the GHotR, The Fey left Toril just prior to the Sundering. I think there is something in ZeromaruX's 4e notes about Corellon having warned them (which is why I brought Auraushnee in on it in my homebrew lore, because destiny/fate was HER thing). They went to the Feywild (which I believe was something else originally, but thats just more homebrew).
Then it says that the Fey sent the elves (as in, non-Eladrin {fey} old-school Sylvan/Green/Wood elves) 'out of Faerie' to do something about the dragons. This is never explained, nor do we know if this was a multispheric event (I would assume so), or if it was Toril-specific.
Then Tintageer goes *boom* and the Eladrin (Fey, or what we use to call the Gold & Silver) come to Toril. The regular elves are already there, doing whatever 'mission' the Fey had set for them. In canon, the Fey originally worshiped the 'Yuir Totems', so the general consensus there was these were fey deities (what we now call 'archfey'). The rest is (Elaine's Evermeet novel) history.
In summation: Pre-Sundering, fey leave Abeir-Toril and go to the Feywild. After a time (and after the Sundering when the other Creators are all but wiped-out), Fey send elves (first mention of a secondary group) back to Toril. Some time later, Eladrin also show back up on Toril. There are still Eladrin (Fey Elves) left back in the Feywild, but apparently, as far as I know, no elves (lesser, 'green' variety) left in the Feywild. There are many groups of elves on Toril that the Eldarin find, including brand-new varieties like Lythari and Avariel. No explanation how that happened (but these sub-groups are never mentioned as having come from Faerie/the Feywild). At some point, Aquatic Elves also become a thing, although we are unaware of when the first ones came into existance (we only know when specific groups of them became sea-Elves).
Conclusion: One race goes in, two races (ethnicities?) come out. This is pre-Sundering, so most likely right around the time of the Godswar, but definitely after the Dawn War (because the crystal Sphere of Abeir-Toril seems to have existed, it just hadn't been 'Sundered', which is why I assume that this was well after the shattering of the Lattice of Heaven; a secondary event had to have caused Ao to split the worlds, and that event was most-likely the Godswar). Regardles, while IN the Feywild (and after they left Toril and their homeland of Ladinion behind), something occurred that made a 'lesser' branch of fey called the elves.
Conjecture: The concept of 'Dokalfar' (Unseelie fey) pre-existed the creation of the elves. There were two groups - one that followed the Selarine, and one that followed the anti-Selarine, although in those early times it was still one unified pantheon. Corellon kept the 'good' ones by his side (which we now knw were actually Eladrin, NOT elves), while Gruumsh went his merry way, probably taking the 'bad' ones with him (this would be the goblinoids, who were - according to all folklore - indeed 'fey'). In fact, they were probably just orcs then, and none of the lesser goblinoids existed yet. Then the Godswar happens and Abeir-Toril is Sundered. Something major happened that changed EVERYTHING, because from that point on we have 'lesser' versions of just about every Planer group. Most likely, this ties into the War of Light & Darkness when death first came into the world (that conflict was likely part of the Godswar). The purely material beings - Creator Races and Precursors - were no longer Immortal. Everything was 'born mortal' from that point forward. This must have been when the fey became 'elves', and could die of old age.
So the 'lesser' kindred were sent forth, supposedly to do something about the dragons. Perhaps the dragons were just an excuse - maybe the fey didn't want to look death in the eye. We may never know. The part the stories skip right over is the orcs. Heres my new take - there were just Orcs, just like there were just Eladrin - Unseelie and Seelie fey. Then there was the 'lessening', and we got Elves. Doesn't it stand to reason the Orcs were also lessened at that time, and THAT is where the goblinoids came from? And just as the old stories (in-game) talk about 'the elves' when we now know most of that was actually about Eldarin, perhaps some of those 'Orc Hordes' were really Goblin Hordes - they were sent out of the Feywild just as the Elves were. The Orcs were still 'High fey', despite their ugliness, there would have been no reason for them to leave at that time. Not until after Gruumsh lost his eye, and left the Feywild behind forever (at which point, the orcs would have migrated out to other worlds as well, following their leader).
The timeline always gets a little wonky, fitting Ao's Sundering in between the two God Wars. The one actually called the Godswar must have spread throughout the new multiverse, to many Crystal Spheres, and our own WoL&D was just the 'local battle' in that war. Still not very neat, but that's the best I can offer. The Sundering happened because of the stuff with Shar and Selūne, which is somehow related to the draconic Myths, but that was all LOCAL. That means their fight might not even be related to all the Primordials imprisoned on/in Abeir and Toril. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2018 15:54:06 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 14:42:53
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1E/2E GAZ10: The Orcs of Thar was written for D&D Master Rules, set in Mystara, but I found it a fine orc-rich background resource for the Thar/Moonsea region in the Realms.
Not necessarily what you're looking for, and not Realms-centric, but if you're on an orc binge then it's a good item to check out. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 15:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-From a meta perspective, clearing up something like that is probably never going to happen.
-From an in-world perspective, given the propensity for Orcs to basically be savages, without books, records, and not all that much in permanent settlements, there probably will never be a clear answer, since there would be very few 'archeological' finds to go by. Races of Faerun said that they were brought to Abeir-Toril by portals from the Creator Races. We know that in -27,000, the Fey Creator Race opened portals that brought creatures over from the Plane of Faerie to mess with Dragons and undermine their control of the world. Putting those two tidbits together, perhaps Orcs were part of that migration. That means one of two things: Orcs were creatures that lived on the Plane of Faerie like the other creatures that the Fey Creator Race ported over, or the Fey Creator Race opened portals to Abeir-Toril to other worlds in addition to the Plane of Faerie, one of which would have been to where ever world those Orcs came from.
I'd recommend option B for this. The opening of portals to both Faerie and other worlds. I also wouldn't limit these portals to necessarily having been created by "the creator races". One thing we all have a habit of forgetting (myself included) is that there were races on Abeir-Toril before and during the shadow epoch which preceeded the arrival of the Sarrukh. Also, the shadow epoch basically identifies a time in which there was a different "sun", and there were gods coming over from "other dimensions" to realmspace to defend these new worlds from the primordials. These cultures may very well have setup the portal network that eventually opens lets say to the world of the Sauroids. The Sauroids may have been brought through to act as soldiers of a sort, as well as an "energy" source for the gods through their devotion. In fact, these sauroids may have only been brought through near the end of the shadow epoch when a new sun gets established (by taking a planet and basically setting it ablaze).
Also, these sauroids aren't limited to just Toril. The planet of Coliar is noted as having "lizard folk","bird folk", and dragons.... and its basically a bunch of earthmotes (2nd edition calls them land islands). It would very much fit if these races are related to this original migration, since its only a planet away. Personally, it would also fit if these "lizard folk" were something a bit different from the standard lizard men, and the same with the "bird folk" not being the standard aarakocra.
Moving outwards planetwise, Karpri is a water planet the size of the moon Selune that's basically icy poles, water, then an equator made of a giant collection of vines, seaweed, etc... and giant insects and arachnids.
Chandos is a water planet bigger than Toril with "incredibly intelligent sea life who are very aware of their surroundings". It probably has aboleths that could have survived the lack of the sun during the shadow epoch. Possibly many of the fish that are intelligent are experiments of theirs. It also has wildly swinging temperatures due to the lack of a proper atmosphere, and small landmasses that are basically shifting shape constantly.
Glyth is the next planet, about the size of Toril, and its basically a mind flayer community which also could have survived the shadow epoch. There was a "sage" who studied this ice on this planet and "determined" that the mind flayers had only been there for a century.... however, given mind flayer abilities to screw with minds... I trust that statement not at all. The planet is also covered with a weird slime/gelatin that serves as their water.
Next comes a very small "planet" known as garden that's basically just a bunch of intertwined plants. It probably did not exist prior to the shadow epoch.
The final planet H'Catha is smaller than the moon Selune, and is a flat water world with a mountain in the center called the spindle, and as water falls off the edge it turns to steam and occludes the atmosphere. There was some kind of culture here previously, but its been gone (I'd presume that the beholders destroyed or enslaved them or both).
So, basically, the 2nd and 3rd planets inhabitants could well be imports from after a new sun was created. Meanwhile glyth and Chandos might contain inhabitants that actually survived the shadow epoch. Karpri kind of forms a middle ground between the two, with definite elven importation.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 16:18:55
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I just thought of something, rereading what I typed last night. The Ondonti are probably like 'High Orcs' - they are probably the closest thing to how the original (fey) Orcs were. Then we get corellon and Gruush battling, which split the Eladrin (Fey), and we get the first two branches. At that point, they were more like political parties (Conservatives and Liberals?), because they were probably all closest to chaotic neutral in alignment (ones still in the Feywild still should be). The Good vs Evil access should not have come about until later - it was just a disagreement over how people (fey) should behave (and treat others). The fact that the Ondonti ARE fey canonically is just icing on the cake here.
Some races call it 'the lessening', others, 'the withering', but the fey call it 'the dwindling'. It was that moment in the universe when all creatures became 'lessened' in some way (the now-mortal races became mortal at that point). I may even lump fiends and archfiends into that, except then I need to add the caveat that it should be possible for a 'lessened' version to ascend to the 'True' form somehow (that option should also only be available outside the prime Material).
Chart forthcoming... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 18:22:00
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Here's what I am picturing (roughly).
Fey
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Alfar (Dokalfar)
(Entropy enters Universe)
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Eladrin Elves Ondonti Hobgoblins Dragons
(Shee) (Sylvan) | / | | |
/ | / | Orcs / | Various |
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LeShay Feyri Green Dark Bugbear Goblins Kobolds
(Wood) |
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Drow
Apparently, this site does not like the backslash.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 18:38:56 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 21:04:59
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| Don't get the Shee thing. Also, weren't fey-ri elf/demons? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 22:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
According to the GHotR, The Fey left Toril just prior to the Sundering. I think there is something in ZeromaruX's 4e notes about Corellon having warned them (which is why I brought Auraushnee in on it in my homebrew lore, because destiny/fate was HER thing). They went to the Feywild (which I believe was something else originally, but thats just more homebrew).-likely the Godswar). Regardles, while IN the Feywild (and after they left Toril and their homeland of Ladinion behind), something occurred that made a 'lesser' branch of fey called the elves.
-The Fey Creator Race were natives of the Plane of Faerie, based on the limited information that we have. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 04:03:16
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Not according to the Grand History of the Realms. It specifically avoids saying just that. Are we gonna have that old argument again? The absence of proof is not proof itself? YOU taught me that.
The only thing the GHotR says is that the fey lived in and ruled Faerie in -34,000 DR. That does not mean they couldn't have moved there form somewhere else in -34,001 DR.
And we have other canon - from Monster mythology that states the fey once came from a realm called ladinion, but they forced out from there because of the Queen of Air and Darkness.
Who we now know is Auril. And Auril lives in the Forgotten Realms. And as far as we know, she's never lived (or been worshiped) anywhere else. (but now you can use the same argument I did - that does not mean she couldn't have come from somewhere else. The logical conclusion here is that Ladinion was somewhere on Abeir-Toril, but that doesn't make it so).
Regardless, the precise wording of the text in the GHotR - they way they purposely avoiding using 'came from', native, etc - just seems to me the designers wanted that part left open. They did that a lot in 4e - left it up to individual DMs.
And here's the kicker - I DON'T think they came from Abeir-Toril at all. I think they came from a place that is currently part of Toril, but used to be part of something else. Just like I think they are from somewhere else - the First World. I think ALL the Creator Races started there, and when the Lattice of Heaven was shattered, the multiverse (Crystal Spheres) were created; it was a 'new universe' at that point. That makes any physical point-of-reference from the 'Time Before Time' meaningless, because it becomes Shrodinger's Cat: it is both true and not true at the same time. So if you were to quantify your statement and say, "are the fey native to the Feywild in this universe?", then I would have to agree with you and answer, "yes". But they existed before this universe did, which means probably before the Feywild existed.
In fact, I am just checking XeromaruX's most excellent History of the Nentir Vale (which I highly recommend you get your hands on - the whole first half is just the history of the D&Dverse itself, and its all 100% canon, footnoted and sourced). In that, it mentions the Feywild THREE TIMES before the entry wherein Corellon discovers it. It mentions Fomorians being there FIRST (seems I was right), but it does go on to say Corellon and others discovered it before the Fomorians "held dominion over the plane", which tells me the Fomorians owned the place FIRST (as it was in Irish folklore). hmmmm... now this is weird. Then it goes on to say the place was full of 'primal spirits', and over time, those spirits coalesced into the fey (archfey happening first, which I also find a little backwards). Apparently, NO-ONE created the fey (elves) - they 'just happened', and every early on, too. That not only goes against lots of prior canon, but it totally puts the Kaboosh on some of my own theories. This makes the fey very much like fiends and their planes.
So rule '0' in 5e D&D - ignore whatever 4e lore you want, because Ao hit 'reset'.
{Dammit, I argued myself into a corner again}
Moving further into the work (and even he has to admit 4e contradicts itself, a LOT, but in a weird way that's a good ting, because we can cherry-pick what works), I find this -
quote:
Corellon discovered the Feywild. The most widely accepted story claims that elves (the name of this unified elven race is contested, though eladrin claim to be the original race from which both elves and drow split) arose from the tears Corellon wept from sorrow, beauty, and mirth during the days before Lolths fall, when he lived in perfect harmony with her and her sister Sehanine. From sorrows tears rose the dark elves, from beautys the eladrin (high elves), and from mirth the wood elves. The first elves lived in perfect harmony, honoring their maker and the Seldarine (the fellowship of brothers and sisters of the wood, the fey gods) as was their due. (DR361, p.8; Dr.394, p.34)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 04:05:11 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 04:11:08
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Thats a pretty porr definition of 'Seldarine', because a lot of things don't have 'woods' and are still consider nature-sites, like arctic regions, deserts, OCEANS, etc. Poor Sashelas - he was always an outsider (which is why I don't think he was a Seldarine at all - I actually think he was a primordial who allied with them).
i need to make an extended list of Elven deities, including the ones formt he dragon articles, AND all the archfey 9which willmake it quite an extensive list). I don't think the Seldarine started out so much a 'pantheon' (because why would that even be a thing, before mortals were around?), as it was a very private and exclusive club run by Corellon. Geeze, no wonder elves are elitist snobs, and no wonder why gruumsh wanted to punch him in the nose: "sorry Gruumsh, no shoes, no admittance. And get a damn tie, will ya? I don't care if you ARE my brother!"  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 04:11:23 |
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When did Orcs come to Faerun
