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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 20:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, hopefully CorellonsDevout, that's what MToF will do that for a lot of stuff. I am dreading what they came up with for the Fey/Elves, but very much looking forward to what they reveal about the Gith, illithids, and Tiamat.
As long as they don't completely change the lore for the Fey/Elves. I only learned of this book yesterday (from the other thread), but I'm hoping they don't go crazy with a bunch of changes and nuke all previous canon. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 20:13:21
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Originally posted by LordofBones
Off the top of my head, IO is head of the draconic pantheon and has always been a god (and is still alive), but he's dead in 4e.
This is accurate and don't at the same time, lol
Io was killed in the Dawn War? Yes. A prehistoric event, and in some worlds (those derived from 4e) people believe he is dead.
However, Asgorath (Io by another name, according to both Ed and the Cult of the Dragon 2e sourcebook) is alive and well. Heck, it was Asgorath, in a more recent period of time (Days of Thunder), who forced Ao to split Abeir-Toril into Abeir and Toril.
Io is a god, and gods can really die if they have worshipers. By the point of the story of the Realms take place (eons after the Dawn War) Io is alive and well. Heck, 4e even give you ways to revive Io, so I don't see a problem there.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Boccob, Hextor and Heironeous no longer exist, despite being in 3.5e. Hextor and Boccob even got Dragon articles. Hell, half the Oeridian pantheon has vanished into thin air.
They still exist in Greyhawk. A world that wasn't touched to much in 4e, and when it was, it was recognized as a parallel world to that of Nerath (4e core world).
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The Raven Queen. Who was Nerull's wife. Despite Nerull being alive and well in 3.5e, and having the core characteristic of hating everyone and everything. Hilariously, he's back in 5e.
Because, the Nerull who was killed was the Nerull of Nerath, not the Nerull of Oerth.
I guess people here has problems accepting that D&D is a MULTIVERSE since way back in 2e (Planescape/Spelljammer). Faiths and Panthenons (a 3.5 Realms sourcebook) even says that killing the Lolth of the Realms will not affect the Lolth's of other spheres in any way. I don't see why killing the Nerull of Nerath would affect the Nerull of Oerth, then.
And yeah, 5e is still approaching D&D as a multiverse.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Auril went from being a lesser goddess chilling in Loki's realm to to being the Queen of Air and Darkness, who's a totally separate being (and actually more powerful than Auril). Oh, and Auril's now a fey, for reasons I guess.
Well, this is actually something they did for the Realms and I dunno why they did this.
But again, Auril would be the Queen of Air and Darkness of the Realms, not necessarily the Queen of Air and Darkness in all of the multiverse.
I like more the 4e core lore because is logical, with a better explained and more cohesive mythic origins than that of 2e, and still gives plenty of room to DM's for customizing. Better of all: is optional (said right away in the 4e DMG).
Now, that the Realms were changed to impose the changes of 4e to the DM's was a bad thing. But 4e Realms are not 4e core. They were designed by different people, in fact. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Feb 2018 20:17:03 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 20:14:51
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As an aside, this made me just think of something - is it possible that Nerull - the original, Elder God in the 4e lore - was killed by The Raven Queen a long time ago and that he became tenebrous, which eventually evolved into Orcus? 
Thus, the Kiaransalee and Raven Queen stories become the same story - they are just using different names for the same god.
So Nerull was his pre-death name (and its still used on Oerth & elsewhere), and Orcus becomes his post-death name. Could it be we are just looking at the same story told from different points of view?
As for Orcus once having been mortal - I can work with that: Tenebrous was the undead vestige of nerull. being a 'god of death' is why this unique situation happened to him in the first place. He had sequestered parts of his 'essence' in other beings (Chosen - we know Mystra does that, so we have a precedent). One such was a dude named Orcus - a mortal with delusions of grandeur. So while we have the tenebrous looking to restore Nerull, we also have a piece of nerull still walking around. At the end of the storyline, the Tenebrous is somewhat successful, but we wind-up with two separate aspects of Nerull (really 3, f you count Tenebrous as a vestige). Orcus gains godhood with his 'piee', and Nerull returns, quite a bit diminished (rather than be the original Elder God, he is now of the lower 'deity' tier, because he power got split with orcus, and also a little bit remains in Tenebrous). Thus, if Nerull were ever able to reabsorb his Orcus aspect (and Tenebrous), he can go back to being the 'big bad' he used to be in the Time Before time.
Just a theory, mind you, and it steps all over some of my other theories, but tis worth thinking about.
As for Nerath, and its 'versions' of the Core pantheon - Nerath doesn't exist anymore. The entirety of Nerath was destroyed thousands upon thousands of years ago, and everyone in 4e that was playing there was really playing on the First World. That means Nerath didn't get pieces of other D&D worlds shoe-horned into it... Nerath was THE world that got destroyed, and pieces of it went everywhere else. It actually makes far more sense that way.
Heck, that even explains why 4e (rules) was so different than any other edition of D&D - it was from a completely different universe - the Before Time universe, which was shattered.
So you 4e players think it was funny that our characters were all dead in 4e? Well, I just stuck yours in the dead book 35K+ years ago! NYAH!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 20:27:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Nerath, and its 'versions' of the Core pantheon - Nerath doesn't exist anymore. The entirety of Nerath was destroyed thousands upon thousands of years ago, and everyone in 4e that was playing there was really playing on the First World. That means Nerath didn't get pieces of other D&D worlds shoe-horned into it... Nerath was THE world that got destroyed, and pieces of it went everywhere else. It actually makes far more sense that way.
Heck, that even explains why 4e (rules) was so different than any other edition of D&D - it was from a completely different universe - the Before Time universe, which was shattered.
So you 4e players think it was funny that our characters were all dead in 4e? Well, I just stuck yours in the dead book 35K+ years ago! NYAH!
This is a possibility that is even explored in 4e lore. 4e Dawn War has it Ragnarök equivalent: The Dusk War, the final war of the universe, that will be the prelude of a new universe (its even a campaign idea they touched upon in the book about the Astral Sea). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 20:57:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But again, Auril would be the Queen of Air and Darkness of the Realms, not necessarily the Queen of Air and Darkness in all of the multiverse.
Here's my problem with this...
Although I agree with most of what you said (because with my own 'Ubertar' tier we resolve a LOT of these conflicts). Planescape needs to be the Over-setting. It needs to be the place where the archtypes (Elder Gods) 'hang out'. THOSE Gods should have hundreds of avatars/aspects coming and going all the time, like well-managed corporations (well, some aren't so well managed LOL). If you go there an are able to somehow get an audience with one those ancient, primal powers, you will be meeting the REAL God, not the one from your sphere. Sometimes this could be very similar - so much so you can't tell the difference - but other times you may be in for an unpleasant surprise. However, it is 99.999% more likely that that extremely busy - and ALOOF - being is simply going to allow you to see one of his avatars - one from your own Crystal Sphere, most likely. And you'll leave thinking you met THE God, when you didn't. Not really.
So this creates what I perceive as the 'Over-Cosmology' - the 'Monomyth' as some have called it. The 'distilled truth', which is what I think the 4e lore was. But that means that everything that happened pre-Dawn War must be a uniform story/folklore/myth, and everything that happened post-Godswar is Sphere-Specific. What happened in-between (and I've roughy calculated 3000 years - a decent chunk of time even to an Elder god) is where we can fudge stuff like crazy, because the rules of the old universe were breaking down, and the rules of the new Universe were being written.
I think the story of the Black Diamond (which created the Queen of Air & Darkness must have taken place before the Godswar, and possibly even before the Dawn War. If it predates the creation of the Crystal Sphere themselves, then there can be only one. The stories should be very close, if not match, on every world. And even if a wildly different tale is told on some world, that wouldn't be the truth, not even for that world, because her creation is Omni-lore (new erm! LOL).
I think her story works best (in the timeline I am attempting to create) well after the Dawn War, as the final battles of the Godswar are still raging. On the other hand, it could be spread across the entirety of the 3K years I am picturing there. It may have taken her that long to completely annihilate Ladinion and the fey lands, before she 'moved on' to other worlds. Spreading it out like that gives us plenty of time for a Fey/Elven diaspora (and works to help explain the panspermia, to some degree).
So what if we say the Shard of Pure Evil was used (like a weapon) against the Lattice of Heaven? So not only does the Lattice (the very interconnectivity of the 'First World') get shattered, but so, too, does the Shard of Pure Evil. We have LOTS of black/evil/unbral/shadow rocks/gems/crystals/thingies in FR lore alone (not to mention lore that says stuff 'rained down upon Abeir-Toril' in the distant past). What if they are all pieces of THE Shard? And the Black Diamond was just one. So the Lattice is destroyed, the gods are frantic, and mean while a group of dwarves who are still trying to just do their job (build the universe - it was those guys from Time Bandits) find the Black Diamond, and give it to Aurilandur (thus frying/shattering her psyche).
All the other shards wind-up in all those balls of proto-matter that would coalesce (with some nudging) in the Crystal Spheres - miniature versions of the First World. This causes similar events like the one that happened in Faerie, and the Godswar breaks out (because so many beings are becoming corrupted). This greater event causes universe-wide diasporas, from every surviving bit of the First World (some of those planes outside the Prime material), which further aggravates the situation (Gruumsh: "what do you mean, there's no land left for mY people?!") Its a cascading event. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 21:11:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 21:29:32
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So, going with what I said above - 4e magic was what was used in the protoverse (the 'Time Before Time'). 'Vancian' magic was something that arose afterward, and would have required an interface of some sort ot use (like Toril's Weave).
Using my own Overcosmology mythos, this would mean the energies released by both Ymir (who 'died') and Gaea (life itself - what we would call 'Positive Energy' in older editions) became intermingled (both positive & Negative - the two 'sides' of Magic) as the Firmament (the physical portion of the First World) began to fragment, and those conjoined energies - now WAY too powerful for mere mortals to handle - also got dispersed into all the new Crystal Spheres.
There should be 11 types of magic in the universe (AFAIK), one for each dimension. They are actually just different forms of dimensional energy, each one ruled over the sentience of a Supernal. In fact, those energies ARE the sentience of the supernal. The consciousness of the dimension itself. A twelfth Supernal was created when Ymir and Gaea merged, creating RAW Magic. Basically, the 'nuclear power' of the universe. The 12th would be 'The Shadow'. The Betrayer. That which shouldn't exist, and would be the antithesis of life (it would be Entropy). Death would not have come into the world just then, for a such a concept would have already existed. What came into the world was unavoidable death - the notions of rot & decay. Of living things eventually breaking down and no longer existing. THAT is what came into the world. THAT is what they were really talking about in The War of Light & Darkness. 'The Shadow' had fallen upon the multiverse.
This is a wholly different thing than Cthon - "The Other'. "The Nemesis". That's a Far Realmsian thing. One is Taint, and the other is Corruption. Law & Chaos. One is basically the idea that everything must come to an end, and the other is the idea that nothing should have ever existed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 21:32:01 |
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Before Bane was even aware that the Realms existed
