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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 03:28:44
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Actually, its Ubertar, as in Uber-Avatar. (no 'S') 
What I call the penultimate avatar of an archtype (which I am NOW thinking there is only one of those per sphere - and all the rest in the sphere are just aspect-avatars. So I guess an Ubertar is an aspect of the archtype itself - the most 'correct' version (unless too many of its avatars turn to far from the original, which could, in theory, affect the Ubertar - the whole 'dogma' thing, where mortal worshipers can make cosmic changes based upon beliefs). BUT, the whole purpose of the Ubertar is to make sure that doesn't happen, so its not really doing its job if some its client-avatars are straying from the pan. However, small but constant changes spread over thousands of years could be subtle enough to 'sneak up' on a god unawares, so that it doesn't even realize its been changing.
For example, lets say Talos WAS an avatar of the original Over-Gruumsh, except over time he stopped being 'Gruumshy' enough. Maybe its because he absorbed too many other avatars into himself (those 'small changes' I was just talking about). Didn't he absorb Garagos? That may have made him 'too human', until he was practically a human-only deity. Then a more 'pristine' avatar of Gruumsh comes through the Orcgate, and he immediately decides that he has to start working against Talos (in the background, at first - he is the 'new kid on the block' on this world). The Orcs of Faerūn have gone for too long not even worshiping Gruumsh, or just paying him lip-service. I am not saying that IS what happened, but I am saying its within the realm of possibility - Gods change over time, and other version of that same god might not be okay with that. Hell, there could even be a world where Lolth is worshiped as the snuggly cutie-goddess of rainbows and unicorns (although as soon as 'Momma Lolth' finds out that adorable little goddess is going to spend an eternity wishing she had been pulling wings off of butterflies instead).
Because WORSHIP is a two-way street, a conduit that links the God directly to its followers. Their beliefs become the God's reality, over time. Tha'ts probably why primordials don't like to take on the 'deity' template. Easier just to get some dupe-god to poise as the primordial (as a God) and they 'split the profits'.
I am starting to think of Gods as corporations... DIVINE corporations. A primordial is like a single-business owner. Vulnerable to direct confrontations, but protected from more esoteric matters. Deities are like corporations because although you can't be 'touched' (sued, etc.) individually - the avatars are your 'board of directors' - you become vulnerable in other ways (like a 'hostile takeover'). So, tons of benefits to incorporating yourself (getting a religion), but just don't give-up too many of your 'shares', else you get fired from your own company (another god steps in and takes over your faith). I am sure this sort of thing happens a lot.
I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know that's really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.
And don't even get me started on the "Mystra-of-the-Month" club.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2018 08:50:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 03:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know thats really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.
Even if she did, she'd be back after Ao hit the Divine Reset button... But man, I like that idea! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 04:05:03
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| Worship is an interesting thing, because you have gods existing before their followers, but once they get followers, they have a chance to become more powerful the more followers they gain (at least post-ToT), but it also means the are "bound" in a way they weren't before. They have to adapt/change as their followers do. I believe the impact of this can vary from deity to deity as some deities are more "timeless" than others. To use the corporation example, some corporations can weather change (either because they adapt, or are just unaffected), and others can't. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 09:06:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know thats really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.
Even if she did, she'd be back after Ao hit the Divine Reset button... But man, I like that idea!
Here's the thing - what did Ao do? We know he moved around a LOT of topsoil (actually, he got Grumbor to do that). He brought people back from Abeir (and Maztica... they were a 'package deal' for some reason), but that's no big deal for him. He twinned the worlds in the first place. But did he REALLY bring back Gods? The mortals seem to thin so...
As I proposed elsewhere, why couldn't Ao just tell Gruumsh to create a Talos-avatar and that was it? As ZeromaruX surmised, why can't 'returned Bane' just be the core Bane from Nerath (or wherever)? Mystra doesn't even count - he just reboots the Weave and slaps a mortal onto that and says, "Wallah! New Mystra!" How do we know any of them are the same 'people' we lost?
Or the idea I've been playing with for my version of Katshaka (and Maztica) - the returned Tyr has a shiny new Silver Hand. One guess who that really is. Thus, 'Tyr reborn' is really just another god that's been 'waiting in the cue'. Of course, this last bit isn't canon - just some fun I'm having (Oghma and Sylvanus - and maybe Gond - would love it  ), but its just an example of how we can spin things - all of these 'returned Gods' could just be a scam the Gods are running on us. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 17:33:51
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| Well, it was indicated in some instances (such as with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun), that they didn't actually die. Also, since it is hard to "permanently kill" a deity, it is likely that the "dead gods" were able to return, thanks to whatever AO did. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 17:54:27
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You know... One of the problems with the whole "all the gods are back!" schtick is that some of the gods have been replaced -- so bringing back old ones causes issues.
It occurs to me that maybe instead of putting them back in their original places, he instead gave the fallen a second chance. Restore them to life, with a toehold on divinity, and then sit back and leave them alone to rise back to prominence or fall once more.
It's still problematic, but it's a better approach than what we've been given, thinks I. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 18:07:42
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| I think that is why some of the portfolios have been rearranged, like with Myrkul and Kel. They are both "death gods", but they govern (if you will) different aspects of death. So, you have more gods sharing space, but they aren't fighting over the same domain, because they have aspects of that domain in their portfolio. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 18:21:04
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Personally, I think there should be as many Gods as Mortals can dream up.
It always bothered me, for example, that Tempus was the ONLY Greater God of War. Why can't there be a Lawful Neutral God of War that is a Greater God? Tempus just always struck me as too chaotic. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 18:22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know... One of the problems with the whole "all the gods are back!" schtick is that some of the gods have been replaced -- so bringing back old ones causes issues.
It occurs to me that maybe instead of putting them back in their original places, he instead gave the fallen a second chance. Restore them to life, with a toehold on divinity, and then sit back and leave them alone to rise back to prominence or fall once more.
It's still problematic, but it's a better approach than what we've been given, thinks I.
Yeah, especially with the Raven Queen - she steps on way too many toes. I think it may be better in the long run if they just say that she killed Auril and took her stuff (so our current Auril is really her, thus the personality-switch). And turning Auril into the QoA&D in the first place has given me so many problems, although I've grown to love it. At this point the easiest way to handle it is to just say that the Queen of Air & Darkness is just a title (which it is, actually), and several have already worn that crown.
Hmmmmm... we actually don't know who the Raven Queen was before she showed up on Nerull's doorstep. It could be that is where the half-crazed Titania's sister wandered off to. That would be a very elegant solution... except then where does our Auril fit in? Unless... the first time we heard about Auril being the QoA&D was in 4e, at the exact same time the Raven Queen was introduced. If we just ignore Brian James' 'Aurilandur' thing, it all works. Our 'old' Auril was NOT the QoA&D. Nothing ever said she was... until 4e when the Raven Queen appeared. tRQ killed her and took her stuff? (and if we really need to keep the Aurilandur thing, we could just say that THAT was THE corrupted aspect... although she should not have had aspects that far back in the timeline, methinks).
Something convoluted like, "When Aurilandur donned the crown, she felt the dark Energies corrupting her mind, and in desperation, she 'purged' that part of herself that had been corrupted" - thus splitting into Auril and Andur (like a Transporter malfunction! LOL) Auril was the evil part, and went to the Realms, to sit and brood. 'Andur' wanders a bit, winds up in Nerull's realm, and he calls her Nera (because she doesn't even recall her own name - most of her memories are gone), and then she kills him and takes his stuff, and thats how the Raven Queen came to be (she knew she was a Queen, she just couldn't remember who).
And if I wanted to really go crazy, I could still slip Kiaransalee into all this. Kia was a 'Chosen' of Aurilandur - one of those Incarnation-thingies like we had in the OE. She kept a piece of herself stored there. Or, as I've said elsewhere, Kiaransalee got ahold of a piece of the Regalia of Winter, and it was a relic-level item (they all should be artifacts), and part of Aurilandur's memories were stored in that (part of what she did when she purged 'Auril' from her mind - great swaths of her memories were pushed into the Regalia). So Aurilandur gets fragmented (goes crazy), and Kiaransalee gets a piece of her mind (either via the 'Chosen' thing - which doesn't feel right to me - or through a piece of the Regalia, which makes more sense, IMO, mostly because of timeline issues with all of that). At the tail-end of 3e Kiaransalee is 'wiped from everyone's mind', and the Epic Ritual has the unforeseen side-effect of sending that bit of Aurilandur's mind BACK to the Raven Queen... and she suddenly remembers who she is. She show up in FR during the Spellplague, kills Auril (her evil half) - or reabsorbs her - and now she IS Aurilandur again, and she is looking for the last pieces of her Regalia which contain the rest of her memories.
Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week. Try the veal, and don't forget to tip your waitress. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2018 18:26:09 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 19:18:02
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| Well, the fact is that NOT all the gods are back. The only gods that are back are those a DM wants back in his Realms, plus a few popular ones (the ones listed in the SCAG). But for instance, Ubtao is not back in canon (according to ToA). What means that, in canon, not all gods are back. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 01:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Personally, I think there should be as many Gods as Mortals can dream up.
It always bothered me, for example, that Tempus was the ONLY Greater God of War. Why can't there be a Lawful Neutral God of War that is a Greater God? Tempus just always struck me as too chaotic.
Yeah, that's why I love the Red Knight and have started her down the path as a goddess of spell strategy who also serves Mystra. I figure that this concept of all lesser gods serving only one master is a bit of a broken concept. Why can't Deneir serve Mystra AND Oghma, for instance? So, long as the deities aren't enemies, (like Shar and Mystra), it shouldn't be a problem. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 02:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know thats really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.
Even if she did, she'd be back after Ao hit the Divine Reset button... But man, I like that idea!
Here's the thing - what did Ao do? We know he moved around a LOT of topsoil (actually, he got Grumbor to do that). He brought people back from Abeir (and Maztica... they were a 'package deal' for some reason), but that's no big deal for him. He twinned the worlds in the first place. But did he REALLY bring back Gods? The mortals seem to thin so...
As I proposed elsewhere, why couldn't Ao just tell Gruumsh to create a Talos-avatar and that was it? As ZeromaruX surmised, why can't 'returned Bane' just be the core Bane from Nerath (or wherever)? Mystra doesn't even count - he just reboots the Weave and slaps a mortal onto that and says, "Wallah! New Mystra!" How do we know any of them are the same 'people' we lost?
Or the idea I've been playing with for my version of Katshaka (and Maztica) - the returned Tyr has a shiny new Silver Hand. One guess who that really is. Thus, 'Tyr reborn' is really just another god that's been 'waiting in the cue'. Of course, this last bit isn't canon - just some fun I'm having (Oghma and Sylvanus - and maybe Gond - would love it ), but its just an example of how we can spin things - all of these 'returned Gods' could just be a scam the Gods are running on us.
He's the god of my own creation? Anachtar?
Anachtar, Keeper of Blood Oaths, Lord of Conflict Resolution, Chainer of the Spirit-Wolf - This god is believed to be a half-brother of Thoros. He seeks to intermediate disputes between the gods, and his followers often serve similar roles within the Metahel clans. However, when resolution cannot be achieved, the blood oath is taken in Anachtar's name, resulting in feuds that have been known to decimate clans. This noble god is noted as having a single hand because of his own selflessness, though its also noted that he's had a mechanical hand constructed by dwarves to take its place. The story is that he lost it in chaining Kezris, the Spirit-Wolf. This has caused a log of friction between himself and Valigor, for he blames the trickster god for bringing the great wolf into the world.
LOL, no, you're probably thinking Nuada of the Silver Hand of the Celtic Pantheon.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 02:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know... One of the problems with the whole "all the gods are back!" schtick is that some of the gods have been replaced -- so bringing back old ones causes issues.
It occurs to me that maybe instead of putting them back in their original places, he instead gave the fallen a second chance. Restore them to life, with a toehold on divinity, and then sit back and leave them alone to rise back to prominence or fall once more.
It's still problematic, but it's a better approach than what we've been given, thinks I.
Yeah, especially with the Raven Queen - she steps on way too many toes. I think it may be better in the long run if they just say that she killed Auril and took her stuff (so our current Auril is really her, thus the personality-switch). And turning Auril into the QoA&D in the first place has given me so many problems, although I've grown to love it. At this point the easiest way to handle it is to just say that the Queen of Air & Darkness is just a title (which it is, actually), and several have already worn that crown.
Hmmmmm... we actually don't know who the Raven Queen was before she showed up on Nerull's doorstep. It could be that is where the half-crazed Titania's sister wandered off to. That would be a very elegant solution... except then where does our Auril fit in? Unless... the first time we heard about Auril being the QoA&D was in 4e, at the exact same time the Raven Queen was introduced. If we just ignore Brian James' 'Aurilandur' thing, it all works. Our 'old' Auril was NOT the QoA&D. Nothing ever said she was... until 4e when the Raven Queen appeared. tRQ killed her and took her stuff? (and if we really need to keep the Aurilandur thing, we could just say that THAT was THE corrupted aspect... although she should not have had aspects that far back in the timeline, methinks).
Something convoluted like, "When Aurilandur donned the crown, she felt the dark Energies corrupting her mind, and in desperation, she 'purged' that part of herself that had been corrupted" - thus splitting into Auril and Andur (like a Transporter malfunction! LOL) Auril was the evil part, and went to the Realms, to sit and brood. 'Andur' wanders a bit, winds up in Nerull's realm, and he calls her Nera (because she doesn't even recall her own name - most of her memories are gone), and then she kills him and takes his stuff, and thats how the Raven Queen came to be (she knew she was a Queen, she just couldn't remember who).
And if I wanted to really go crazy, I could still slip Kiaransalee into all this. Kia was a 'Chosen' of Aurilandur - one of those Incarnation-thingies like we had in the OE. She kept a piece of herself stored there. Or, as I've said elsewhere, Kiaransalee got ahold of a piece of the Regalia of Winter, and it was a relic-level item (they all should be artifacts), and part of Aurilandur's memories were stored in that (part of what she did when she purged 'Auril' from her mind - great swaths of her memories were pushed into the Regalia). So Aurilandur gets fragmented (goes crazy), and Kiaransalee gets a piece of her mind (either via the 'Chosen' thing - which doesn't feel right to me - or through a piece of the Regalia, which makes more sense, IMO, mostly because of timeline issues with all of that). At the tail-end of 3e Kiaransalee is 'wiped from everyone's mind', and the Epic Ritual has the unforeseen side-effect of sending that bit of Aurilandur's mind BACK to the Raven Queen... and she suddenly remembers who she is. She show up in FR during the Spellplague, kills Auril (her evil half) - or reabsorbs her - and now she IS Aurilandur again, and she is looking for the last pieces of her Regalia which contain the rest of her memories.
Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week. Try the veal, and don't forget to tip your waitress.
This has potential (her being an incarnation) Kiara Unseelie... Kiaraunseelie... Kiaransalee. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Feb 2018 02:09:36 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 06:15:27
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| Kiaransalee does actually have a canon backstory, being a necromancer-queen from the prime world of Threnody and is at least 30,000 years old. She's not native to the Realms; she only entered the drow pantheon after Lolth was cast into the Abyss. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 07:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Kiaransalee does actually have a canon backstory, being a necromancer-queen from the prime world of Threnody and is at least 30,000 years old. She's not native to the Realms; she only entered the drow pantheon after Lolth was cast into the Abyss.
I allowed for all that.
She was an ambitious dark elf (note: She could not possibly have been Drow 30K years ago), who got a hold of a piece of the regalia of winter - possibly the Crown itself (The Crown of Frost, which later became the Crown of Horns*). My idea here is that somehow, when Aurilandur got hit with the corruption-whammy from the Black Diamond, she tried to fight off the effects (as she felt its tendrils seeping into her mind), and she was able to isolate parts of her persona and disperse them, in attempt to free herself. The uninfected 'Andur' part of her mind was thrust into one her handmaidens, whom she possessed (possibly merged with) and ran screaming from the hall. Other pieces of her mind - mostly her disjointed memories - were pushed into the rest of her Royal Regalia, which vanished (as artifacts are wont to do), except for her royal scepter, which the remaining 'Auril' (the corrupted husk that was left) retrieved and took with her as she went to wreak havoc upon Ladinion (blanketing it in ice and eternal winter). The scepter became her favored weapon over time - "Ice Maiden's Caress" - reforged into a pickaxe by the power of her inner corruption.
*The Frost Crown was lost. A thing of Ice and spikes, to match the one worn be her betrothed, Rellavar Danuvien. It was Rumored to have appeared somewhere in the Taan region after the fall of Imaskar, but where it had been in the intervening years is unknown. It had become a blackened, withered thing, still bearing the huge Black Diamond the dwarves had set there. Today, it is known as the Crown of Horns.
The Ice Necklace appeared at the domicle of a primal power name Uluitiu, and his is an equally sad story. Well, maybe not equally sad... he was playing with fire (something a winter spirit should never do).
The Ring of Winter also appeared on Toril, in southern Faerūn, in the area that would later become Mulhorand. It was discovered by Imaskari survivors fleeing their falling empire, and brought north into the Dalelands. Or so Artus Cimber has discerned (or so he thinks - there is more to the story, but an archmage layered powerful anti-divination magics on the artifact).
The Hoarchoker went to a different world than the other pieces - it wound up in the possession of half-mad and ambitious princess who had dreams of ruling the entire world - Kia-Rahn "Unseelie". The tainted necklace helped her achieve her goals - with it she was able to create Rimewalkers - evil undead born of ice & Cold. After murdering every single dark elf on her own world of Threnody, she ascended to godhood... where she eventually ran afoul of Lolth, and all her dreams & ambitions were crushed by an even darker soul than hers. Today she is known as Kiaransalee, or at least, she would be, had folk not forgotten her, for a time. She still wore the choker as a goddess, but Lolth called it her 'collar', and attached a ring and chain to it, so she could walk her around the Demonweb Pits like an animal. Lolth understood the malignant power inside the artifact, but she was smart enough not to tempt fate by taking it for herself.
The Maid somehow found her way to Nerull's realm, where she eventually killed him and stole his godhood (although rumors of his demise must be exaggerated). He called her Nerath, for she was unable to recall her own name (it may have been Nerath), but she remembered being a Queen for time, or was going to be... she couldn't remember which. When she ascended her new throne in Nerull's realm, two ravens lit upon the top of the chair, and she took that as an omen. She called herself "The Raven Queen', and vowed to find her missing memories, and what had happened to her.
And when Kiaransalee was struck from mortal memory by an epic ritual, that piece her mind - still attached to the choker - went to tRQ, appearing around her neck, as if it belonged there, and memories came rushing back to her. She is Aurilandur, the once-and-future Frost Sprite Queen, The Raven Queen of Air & Darkness, and rightful ruler of the Winter Court of Faerie. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 07:57:47 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 13:16:18
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| So, just to walk out what you're describing, this would have Auril and TRQ as still separate entities, but it would tie TRQ and Kiaransalee together. Now there would be a "tie" between TRQ/Kiaransalee and Auril via the regalia of winter (love the "Hoarchoker"), and neither would be the full-on Queen of Air and Darkness (which the QoA&D doesn't appear as a queen on a throne... she is an area of absence through which a voice speaks to the Unseelie Court). So, perhaps it would be best to have the "regalia of winter" not even be coming from Aurilandur... maybe the QoA&D invested her power into multiple "phylacteries" long ago... and sometime long ago she was shattered, but she lives on in these artifacts and infecting beings of godly power. Like Sauron, she wants to get them all back together maybe... but maybe there are some rules as to HOW she has to do so (thus Auril entreating Artus Cimber... maybe she can't just take the ring of winter). Also, maybe these artifacts create a shadow self for these deities.... like in 4e there was an Archfey who was like a prince of frost, and maybe he is the "reflection" of Rellavar Danuvien. Along these lines, what if Ubtao/Qotal at one point picked up the ring of winter, and thus was born Eshowdow. After all, the ring of winter WAS in Chult, correct? I forget the story there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 14:52:04
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| Note that Kiaransalee hailed from a different Prime Material Plane. The entire drow mess we all know is unique to Faerun. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 16:49:50
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Note that Kiaransalee hailed from a different Prime Material Plane. The entire drow mess we all know is unique to Faerun.
Which mess?
L is the drow goddess #1 as far as we know.
K is venerated on a world other than her home, thus she probably has multi-sphere following too.
With V and E, we just don't know for sure how widely they are present.
But L wouldn't have so little hostility toward K if she was among her strongest rivals. From which we may guess she has some bigger fish to fry - deities who probably also got multi-sphere following (to be a serious threat). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 18:16:51
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@Sleyvas - RIGHT. The dwarves find the Black Diamond (which doesn't effect them - part of their nature is that they are immune to normal {arcane} magic, which is why 'magic' (of the arcane variety) was denied them (there was something about that in some canon piece that appeared n the WotC site years ago, involving the Nether scrolls). Annam (and Ptah) made them to be unaffected by outside magic, so he gifted the Jōtunbrūd (which included the dwarves back then) with Rune Magic. However, they've since lost this 'blessing' - post ToT Ptah (a Supernal - way higher than a God) decided they had changed too much from the original he created, and finally took back their resistance to Arcane Magical forms. Unknowingly, that same resistance had also blocked 'life' energy from the Gaea (because Magic = 'Life'), which obstructed dwarven breeding (which is why their bloodlines became so diluted in the first place - they needed 'outside help'). Once the Arcane ban was lifted from them, they became as fecund as humans (see what I did there? Hope you're watching, Wooly). 
ANYWAY... the Feywild dwarves take the Black Diamond and rework the Frost Crown for Auril, and present it to her as a gift (a mild reworking of the canon story). Once she dons it, the power of the Black Diamond - actually a Shard of Pure Evil - drives her insane. Since she is archfey, she is really just energy anchored to a physical form, and calling upon her heritage, she splits her consciousness in two, and flees with the remaining 'sane' part into her handmaiden, who become Andur (then Nerath, and finally The Raven Queen). However, the process wasn't 'clean' - the Shard wsn't letting her go that easily. Fragments of her psyche got blasted into her Royal regalia - all artifacts capable of holding consciousness (although I think it was only in that moment that they became artifacts, except for the Crown, because the Black Diamond was already set in it). This is why both Auril (the remaining evil being who was Aurilandur) and Andur - the handmaiden-turned-archfey - had large swaths of their memory missing.
She is admitted to a little club Lolth helped form - the Primal Furies, composed of two other 'fallen' archfey Araushnee had taken under her wing, and an aspect of Gruumsh. These later form the basis for a psuedo-pantheon on Toril called The Yuir Totems (Auril, Umberlee ("The Coral princess"), Malar (as Magnar, who was actually a primal power of the hunt), and Talramsh (who became Talos after he absorbed Bhaelros). Talramsh was a more orc-like aspect of Grummsh until he got 'watered down' by over-absorbing others, and over time lost his any true connection to the Orcs. Younger aspects of both Lolth and Eilistraee also became part of the Yuir Panthheon.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 18:24:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 18:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Note that Kiaransalee hailed from a different Prime Material Plane. The entire drow mess we all know is unique to Faerun.
You've actually said pretty-much the same thing in your last post, which I then went onto explain (in detail) in my (purely homebrew) musings.
The fact that she ISN'T from Realmspace actually lends itself to the multispheric natures of the story. If anything, I would like to come up with a reason why the other artifacts all wound up on Abeir-Toril - artifacts, by their very nature, tend to stick around awhile, and then simply disappear, later to appear 'elsewhere' in the multiverse. Some artifacts are more drawn to a particular crystal Sphere because it has ties to it, and thus, is more likely to reappear within that sphere.
The fact that one piece - the scepter-that-became-her-weapon - stayed behind is actually rather elegant. Being artifacts, they 'scattered' - so many in close proximity to each other would set-off all sorts of 'cosmic alarms', thus the 'extras' were all shunted away.
My thoughts here are that artifacts not only resonate with a certain Sphere or plane, but also with people. Thus, when Vecna was not in Greyspace and was in Ravenloft, there was a much higher % chance that his artifacts would materialize there. So, once Auril (the 'corrupted husk' of the original Aurilandur) fled into Realmspace, The other items eventually found their way there as well (except for the necklace/choker that appeared in Kiaransalee's boudoir). In fact, we could even involve the multispheric Imaskari (whch was my plan anyone) - the ring of Winter did NOT materialize in Realmspace - it was brought there from another world by the Imaskari. That alone was a major feat, because artifacts normally do not allow themselves to be taken outside of a Crystal Sphere - the tend to just disappear if that happens. But if anyone would figure-out how to do that, it would be the same group that figured-out how to erect a field that would stop gods from entering a Crystal Sphere (what stops one thing from going in one direction, could stop others things from going in the other). I have a LOT more to go with this, but its part of my personal Imaskari lore - suffice it to say that Halaster took the ring with him when he left and founded Thaeravel (which is why it was later found where it was).
Auril probably went to look for the other pieces after she was done wreaking havoc in Ladinion, and the first she was able to locate was the Ice Broach, which Ulutiu fashioned into his necklace (because I don't want two neck-pieces for the regalia, and I don't want to loose the Hoarchoker - artifacts do tend to change their form on occasion). So she goes to Toril, only to find the necklace is trapped, and so there she stays, Other artifacts eventually 'follow', but she is focused on the necklace in the glacier (she's pretty manic).
And all of this has given me an idea to add to my ever-growing Imaskari lore - the Imaskari collected artifacts from other worlds. It may even be how they were empowering their Godwall. They didn't so much make the Imaskarkana - they adapted stolen artifacts with their own magic, transforming them into the Imaskarna (thus, I reversed the canon on them - the Imaskarkana don't take the form of artifacts, they always were the artifacts. The Imaskarkana part was simply 'imprinted' on them). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 01:42:11 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 01:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I think LordofBones was referencing Drow formerly being Dark Elves (as in something different) in the Forgotten Realms, whereas Drow from elsewhere were not necessarily anything else in that setting.
Pretty much. For all we know, Kiaransalee hailed from a world where the drow were more like Eberron's drow, just with the Seldarine included. She was the wife to a dark elven king who cast her out for her necromantic experiments; that's pretty out of character for what we know of drow culture (male authority figures, antipathy towards magical experiments on victims). The fall of the drow is an event unique to Faerun; Oerth never had the Crown Wars and Eberron's drow are tribal elves with a male scorpion god. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 03:07:09
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But Lolth's treachery against Corellon goes back to 1e D&D. Elaine just took that and made a story out of it.
And since we now have to filter our lore (ALL D&D lore now, from all editions and settings) through this 'universal lore' 4e/5e did, it stands to reason that THAT part of her Evermeet novel happened pre-Sundering, which means (probably) pre-Godswar. In fact, Gruumsh fighting Corellon and losing his eye is PART of the (badly named) Godswar (it was more like a ton of small 'brushfires' across the multiverse, then a great big war). The War of Light & Darkness was probably happening in Realmspace at the same time that was going down (another 'local brushfire').
That means OUTSIDE Realmspace, meaning its 'just D&D', and that lore should be applied universally (in fact, Lolth never even heard of Toril until later in the book). Now, the stuff with the drow descent may be Realms-specific, but I think it would make more sense if all Dark Elves were universally cursed EVERYWHERE, because Corellon is an Archtype (Estelar), meaning he is Omni-spheric, not just multispheric, and the ritual got out of control - Dark Elves that had nothing to do with it and/or never even heard of Toril wind-up cursed.
That is his shame.
He managed to turn half the sylvan Elves against the Seldarine in one shot. You would almost think it was Lolth herself that fudged with the ritual and threw it into overdrive.
Kiaransalee, I'll give you that. I think she ascended while still a Dark Elf, so she is probably still looking like one, not Drow.
I wish they had drawn Eberron dark Elves brown instead - the lore would be so much easier to fix if only FR (and GH, but we've fudged that one already) had the true black kind. If every other world had brown (dark) elves, then we could just say it was only FR's Drow that got the whammy (it was an Ilithiir bloodline thing).
But as I've said, when MToF comes out soon (which I plan to buy), we will probably know more details. They are finally getting at the guts of this new 'universal D&D lore' setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 18:33:31 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 04:10:53
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Eh, not everything has to come down to the 4e mess. I mean, if you want to reconcile everything into one big lorebook, that's fine, but most of it seems to be local to the Realms.
Off the top of my head, IO is head of the draconic pantheon and has always been a god (and is still alive), but he's dead in 4e.
Boccob, Hextor and Heironeous no longer exist, despite being in 3.5e. Hextor and Boccob even got Dragon articles. Hell, half the Oeridian pantheon has vanished into thin air.
The Raven Queen. Who was Nerull's wife. Despite Nerull being alive and well in 3.5e, and having the core characteristic of hating everyone and everything. Hilariously, he's back in 5e.
Auril went from being a lesser goddess chilling in Loki's realm to to being the Queen of Air and Darkness, who's a totally separate being (and actually more powerful than Auril). Oh, and Auril's now a fey, for reasons I guess.
The real world pantheons, the Cerilian pantheon and so on haven't been affected, at all.
I essentially ignore the lore of 4e and 5e. The Realms were just fine, and don't really need a backstory ripped straight from Greek mythology with splashes of Warcraft. In-setting, I'd just say that 4e lore was just some Prime scholar overhearing a worshiper of the Olympian pantheon in Sigil and deciding to spice up Realmsian theology. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 04:48:21
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I think LordofBones was referencing Drow formerly being Dark Elves (as in something different) in the Forgotten Realms, whereas Drow from elsewhere were not necessarily anything else in that setting.
Pretty much. For all we know, Kiaransalee hailed from a world where the drow were more like Eberron's drow, just with the Seldarine included. She was the wife to a dark elven king who cast her out for her necromantic experiments; that's pretty out of character for what we know of drow culture (male authority figures, antipathy towards magical experiments on victims). The fall of the drow is an event unique to Faerun; Oerth never had the Crown Wars and Eberron's drow are tribal elves with a male scorpion god.
The fall of the drow did happen on Oerth though. We do have at least two worlds where that happened (either that or the drow on Oerth are imports of Toril). I believe the dark elves of Mystara are also the same, but they also have shadow elves there as well.
That being said, it can be said that the "dark elves" of Krynn are not the same, and as you point out, the dark elves of Eberron don't seem beholden to a female goddess. I'm not sure if Athas even has drow... same with birthright (as in not sure). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Feb 2018 04:50:16 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 04:53:11
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| There were Drow in a module published in Birthright...but I think Warlock of the Stonecrowns was in error by adding them because there is absolutely no lore regarding them in the world. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 17:00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Pretty much. For all we know, Kiaransalee hailed from a world where the drow were more like Eberron's drow, just with the Seldarine included. She was the wife to a dark elven king who cast her out for her necromantic experiments; that's pretty out of character for what we know of drow culture (male authority figures, antipathy towards magical experiments on victims).
The most obvious explanation is that most of those who ran from the Descent didn't have Lolthites with them (it was still uncommon back then), and then she didn't Catch Them All before they made themselves comfortable in their new homes.
quote:
and Eberron's drow are tribal elves with a male scorpion god.
Ditto.
quote:
The fall of the drow did happen on Oerth though. We do have at least two worlds where that happened (either that or the drow on Oerth are imports of Toril).
Possible, since there's at least one gate, and the two worlds are in neighbouring spheres.
quote:
I believe the dark elves of Mystara are also the same
There are "dark elves" on Mystara?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 17:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But as I've said, when MToF comes out soon (which I plan to buy), we will probably know more details. They are finally getting at the guts of this new 'universal D&D lore' setting.
It would be nice if all this was compiled into a nice big sourcebook that explains the "whys" of things like this. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 19:52:46
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Well, hopefully CorellonsDevout, that's what MToF will do that for a lot of stuff. I am dreading what they came up with for the Fey/Elves, but very much looking forward to what they reveal about the Gith, illithids, and Tiamat.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Does Sigil exist anymore lol?
Last I heard it does, and its still in the outlands on the endless spire, but the Outlands itself stopped being the 'hub' of the Great Wheel - it was just a plane by itself with Gates to other planes (which, to be honest. is how I always pictured it - the 'Gate Tows' really just that - GATES). Thus, if its 'changed back', truthfully, nothing has changed at all. The only thing thats change is how people picture it.
I am going to answer these individually in BLUE text - its easier.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Eh, not everything has to come down to the 4e mess. I mean, if you want to reconcile everything into one big lorebook, that's fine, but most of it seems to be local to the Realms.
For some of us, we are doing projects we hope to put on the DMsGuild, so we have to make it all work (much harder to do than it would be if we were actually working for WotC and could just wave a magic wand and change stuff). MY intention is never to tell people what to put in their games. That's up to the DM.
Off the top of my head, IO is head of the draconic pantheon and has always been a god (and is still alive), but he's dead in 4e.
This is just plain stupid. Easy fix - during the 4e era, the Spellplague caused problems everywhere, and as an Overpower (I think it may even be higher than that - a Supernal), Io was busy rushing around just 'holding stuff together', probably quite literally. His main concern should have been repairing The Great Wheel. So because he had 'gone dark' to just about everyone, the assumption (in-game) was that he had died, like so many others. We could even take this Deux-ex-machina an apply it across the board - Io and other Overpowers would have grab as many beings as they could (even 'evil' powers) to go on 'emergency repairs' to try to keep the entirety of the multiverse from 'crashing'. The 'power surge' that Mystra's death caused should never have been that widespread, but somehow, it was (and although we look at that as a big continuity problem, I think instead its fodder for a great story - it may have even been done, but I didn't read any of the 4e novels).
Boccob, Hextor and Heironeous no longer exist, despite being in 3.5e. Hextor and Boccob even got Dragon articles. Hell, half the Oeridian pantheon has vanished into thin air. See above answer. It was stupid.
The Raven Queen. Who was Nerull's wife. Despite Nerull being alive and well in 3.5e, and having the core characteristic of hating everyone and everything. Hilariously, he's back in 5e.
This whole plot-device never made sense to me, because Nerull was functioning in 3,5 on Oerth, but they have tRQ killing him tens of thousands of years ago. Solution? She did 'kill' him back then, and he returned a short time later (could even be a century or more - it happened so far back it doesn't matter at all to the GH timeline). You can't kill gods permanently. She took his power, she took his stuff, she freed his minions, and she trashed his house... and then she ran away because she knew he'd be back anyway. he's a damn ESTELAR... an ELDER GOD. You don't just 'kill' those. Not only does he represent death, he predates date! (which is totally separate issue I have with the 4e lore - he probably didn't represent death until after he returned from his own death). Oh, and she was never 'his wife' - gods almost never marry. He was just "hittin' that".
Auril went from being a lesser goddess chilling in Loki's realm to to being the Queen of Air and Darkness, who's a totally separate being (and actually more powerful than Auril). Oh, and Auril's now a fey, for reasons I guess.
I HATED this at first. In fact, I hated it through the entirety of 4e... but I've come to like it. its not perfect, but I've made it work.
The real world pantheons, the Cerilian pantheon and so on haven't been affected, at all.
Most worlds wouldn't be. I suspect the 'Celestial triangle' (or whatever it is SJ calls GH, FR, and DL) sis important and central to the multiverse, for some reason. They are the Prime Material's version of The Great Wheel. Things on one tend to affect stuff on the others. I personally believe the Greyhawk wars and Krynn's cataclysm coincided with the Spellplague (as did the Grand Conjunction in RL). The 'ripples' were more like a tidal wave this time out. Further out worlds would be much less affected, if at all. Mystara is another one I am beginning to suspect as special importance - it may have been the region most of the sentience of the Prime (what I call 'The Ymir') was located. Or at least, central to it somehow. I think Mystara isn't in a Crystal Sphere at all - I think its in its own plane (possibly the astral, so it would be akin to one of those 'dead gods' floating around, only a thousand times the size). Out of curiosity, I just looked it up to see if Mystara has a solar system; it does... Earths! Weird...
I essentially ignore the lore of 4e and 5e. The Realms were just fine, and don't really need a backstory ripped straight from Greek mythology with splashes of Warcraft. In-setting, I'd just say that 4e lore was just some Prime scholar overhearing a worshiper of the Olympian pantheon in Sigil and deciding to spice up Realmsian theology.
To a degree, YES - each Sphere can have its own, distinctive lore and gods, even if they're the same gods as in other spheres. I've explained how all that can be possible with my 'Ubertar' theory (a super-aspect that an Archtype (Elder God) puts in charge of a Crystal Sphere - these are normally merged with a local mortal who has ascended in the faith of the god, so each world can indeed have it own creation myths).
Someone put Drow in Cerillia? That was STUPID. 
A 'Drow' is a very specific thing - its a cursed Dark Elf. FR has them, and GH has them... probably from FR. Thanks to the creation of the Shadowdark* its all easily explainable now. You'll note LordKarsus and I used the Shadowdark even before there was one in 4e, so... YOUR WELCOME (cue Moana music). When the Drow did their diaspora from the great rift, their were MILLIONS of them. They spread throughout Toril, but they also spread through Gates to other worlds. Oerth was just one such world. Thus, all DROW everywhere should be descended from Ilithiir elves. WE've had 11.5K+ years people - more than enough time for even tiny groups to have 'gotten their freak on'. That's more than double the 'known history' of Earth.
That doesn't preclude that actual Dark Elves - the darker skinned Sylvan (Green) Elves that left the Feywild with the others - can't also exist - and even coexist - on other worlds. In fact. I even included just such a thing in my Elven netbook articles - the Brown Elves. Much more savage and primitive (like GH's Grugach).
Mystara has Shadow Elves, which are albinos and aren't connected to other Dark Elves AFAIK. I don't think it has regular dark/drow elves (someone mentioned that0, ut I could easily be wrong.
Krynn has no drow. Even their 'dark elves' aren't real - they are just regular elves that get magically branded (like what I picture went on with the Seelie & Unseelie, so their is a precedent - only other fey/elves can tell. Its more of a 'political thing' than race).
Athas would have my theoretical Brown Elves - just Dark Elves that have evolved along a totally different path than drow or others. There shouldn't have been any Eladrin on Athas, unless they mixed-in with the other (Sylvan) Elves after magic fell on that world (I would think fey would just die-out on such a world).
Reading through the Dead Gods product (probably for the 1st time), I have never realized how detailed it made Kiaransalee. My bad. i have to now take that into consideration - her followers are explicitly called Drow, NOT 'Dark Elves'. This means (according to my logic) her takeover of his realm had to have happened post- -10K DR... which is no problem, really. In fact, it makes a lot of sense to have it closer to the present on the timeline than a 'in the beginning' kind of thing, because Orcus is also an ascended mortal. Personally, it sounds to me like she did to Orcus what The Raven Queen did to Nerull. Eerily similar, in fact. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 19:58:44 |
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Before Bane was even aware that the Realms existed
