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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:55:47
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unfortunately I never bothered to write down the sources. It comes from a sourcebook because its not coloured purple in my archive (I colour my own stuff purple) but I don't know where from.
Google provides though. Its from Prayers from the Faithful
Ok, just because I hate when I can't see the quotes when I search on this stuff later. Posting. Also, it does indicate more than one portal (actually scores, which would indicate at least 40 and possibly hundreds). So, given this, yeah, I'm going to lean towards Markustays idea of some kind of flying/scooping portal swooping down an dumping orcs..... and I do like that they were INTENDED to all get sent to Thay, and did not (uh oh).
From Prayers from the Faithful entry for Lash of Loviatar
The sacred weapon became almost an anti-establishment badge of the faithso much so that when Naneethrama Luin rose from humble origins to slay the Highmost Lash of the Lady (Undreena, who had replaced Imra in 916 DR), and claim the rulership of the Loviatan church for her own in 929 DR, she gave the Lash to the lowest ranking priestess she could find in Undelos, and bade her take it out into Faerūn and give it to the most needy lay worshiper of the faith she
could find.
In so doing, she undoubtedly preserved the sacred item from destruction for Naneethrama, the Sacred Throne of Skulls, Undelos, and all were swept away in the Great Rising of the Orcgates, in 955 DR, when a fell power (some say Thayan archmages experimenting with dangerous spells, others insist that the gods of the orcs themselves were responsible) suddenly brought into being scores of dimensional
portals that spewed forth orcs from the mountain caverns of the far North to lay waste to half a hundred cities and realms all over Faerūn. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:22:58
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I have a feeling they were meant to be the same event, but now they are getting repsun as separate 'Orgate affairs'. A lot of redundant lore that couldn't possibly fit on a normal timeline was fixed this way (and I am not so sure it was the best way of doing things, IMHO).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Isnt chessenta the place with a city of half orcs ruled by a half orc.
Wasn't Chessenta part of Unther at the time of the Orcgate Wars? 
Unther wasn't always the tiny little thing it is now - you have to look further afield.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where's this lore from where it detail 50 cities?
Oh noessssss!
I feel fifty new Tharchs coming on.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2018 21:30:08 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:33:11
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Ya know, the one thing I don't like about all of this is that on the one hand, Portals/Gates are supposed to be really hard to create, and very important (logistically) when one is found, and on the other hand, we get people creating whole batches of them, willy-nilly, all over the lace.
If teleportation magic is really this easy (and you can move around numbers of beings on that scale), then why isn't everyone doing it, all the time? It just doesn't make sense, IMO.
EDIT:
We can't even blame it on Netheril's fall (and magic changing), because its too recent. I'm really not feeling at ease with that lore, as-is. Its just seems very broken to me. Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2018 21:37:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:40:56
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I feel a map coming on...
I am so dying to do one of those time-lapse things using a GIF (doing the Old Empires). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2018 22:16:59 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:50:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know, the one thing I don't like about all of this is that on the one hand, Portals/Gates are supposed to be really hard to create, and very important (logistically) when one is found, and on the other hand, we get people creating whole batches of them, willy-nilly, all over the lace.
If teleportation magic is really this easy (and you can move around numbers of beings on that scale), then why isn't everyone doing it, all the time? It just doesn't make sense, IMO.
EDIT:
We can't even blame it on Netheril's fall (and magic changing), because its too recent. I'm really not feeling at ease with that lore, as-is. Its just seems very broken to me. Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!)
Well I think that's largely down to misconception.
Magic isn't easy or cost free. In fact it should be darned expensive (and in my game it is - each spell costs 1sp per spell level to cast and your average commoner makes less than 10sp in a year and merchants earn less than 1-10gp in a year and nobles earn less than 100gp in a year and kings earn less than 1000gp in a year. And they all have to use up half in costs. I kept magic item creation costs the same so they are prohibitively expensive to make - you don't make a magic item unless you are commissioned to by someone rich although acquiring all the reagents through adventurers can reduce the cost to almost nothing but that would take years. You certainly can't sell a magic item in a shop they just aren't that common.
So casting a magic spell is expensive especially teleport which is level 5-7 I think (5sp to cast on top of any other unique reagents required).
I reckon the other misconception is that of portals and gates. You can create a portal with a spell or two and it will last an amount of time depending upon the distance (the further the distance the shorter it lasts and the more errors that occur if its used). To make it two way you have to travel to the other end and cast the same spell the other way. This is purely a magic force and is essentially invisible. Wizards can learn how to cast this spell for themselves - its not super advanced magic.
Elves use this all the time and they create lots of short distance portals (100 miles) to allow them to jump all over the place (hence the portal networks). They make them permanent to last longer but even that doesn't last forever.
The gates of Imaskar however are great big stargate like structures made of rare metals and inscribed with batrachi style runes and infused with tons of magic like a gigantic teleportation artefact (which they are). These cost millions to make but they allow risk free teleportation (two way) to any other stargate terminus over any distance. Or they can be used to create a portal just as the spell does to any other destination (but of course its only one way).
The portal magic is relatively easy to access and less expensive in the short term of history. THe gates are the rare and expensive magic - that's what the twisted rune wanted when they kidnapped Halaster. Its what the batrachi and sarrukh used too. The gates are hellishly expensive in the short term but over the history of a nation they become cheap.
At least that's how I'm playing it. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 10:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!)
Exactly. This is why my Thay and my Red Wizards are completely different and people do actually thoroughly fear them and they're not just ordinary baddies you bully, kill by the scores, insult and/or boycott easily.
"They're so ebil they are stupid" is something I never accepted. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 18:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well they had that nuke. They used it and destroyed 50 of the 100000 settlements in faerun and then the nuke broke and they cant use it anymore.
Then they had that other artifact that acted like a massive spell pool but that broke too.
Their nuke is being an organization of wizards that runs a country.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And the red wizards are believed stupid for the same reason that countries are believed stupid. They do things that counter themselves and their own actioms and they do it for the same reason as america has just run out of money to pay its own government. Inside the red wizards there are many competing factions that will do anything (including hinder themselves) to weaken their opposing factions.
Thay creates a huge army and wastes it. Well that was probably one faction plotting against the other and changing generals or even attacking the army that the other faction made.
Its all just about greedy short sighted people doing unimaginably stupid things just to get petty revenge. A lot like real life
Except that they wouldn't be able to cast spells if that was the case, so they wouldn't be Red "Wizards" to begin with.
I'm sick and tired of people playing high-intelligence characters like idiots the same way I'm sick and tired of wizards doing idiotic things just because they're evil.
Being good doesn't make people smart, being evil doesn't make people stupid.
Yet evil wizards (Thayan, Zhents, random cabalists, etc...) are consistently more idiotic than your run of the mill Cormyrean War Wizard or Harper Wizard or member of the Watchful Order of Magists ad Protectors with no other reason than artistic choice. That's all good in the novels but has no bearing on my Realms.
But this is not getting us anywhere because is something I strongly feel about and I don't think is useful to start this kind of debate here, sorry.
So, just to get back kind of on topic after my rant, assuming that the "Orcgates" operation was conducted while the Red Wizards (the canonical, published ones) were acting as a collective force with the goal of freeing Thay, I see no problem in them using all kinds of Teleportation Circles, Gates (the spell not the fixed ones), altered summonings (just like regular "Summon Monster ..." but picking specific kind of creatures from specific places) and other ways all pumped with circle magic to do something as big as that.
There is a reason people fear organized groups of spellcasters (be they wizards, socrcerers, clerics or whatever), they can really ruin your day, I just wish it was like that consistently across the alignment range. Good guys/gals can do impressive things with magic, bad guys/gals should be able to do the same. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 19:03:55
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Pound for pound, all things being even, 'evil' should ALWAYS trump 'good'.
Why? Because of the lack of a moral compass - in an altercation, having morals is a disadvantage. Why do 'Supers' keep their identities a secret? Because 'bad guys' can strike at them through their loved ones. Good guys won't ever do that. You know why Batman can never retire? Because he never kills his enemies. If he killed them all every time he defeated them, he'd be sitting on a beach in the Bahamas sipping sweet little umbrella drinks.
In the RW, Good is stupid, and evil is smart. Just look at our current geo-political theater. "Nice guys finish last" isn't just an old saying - its an absolute truth. Why? Because they don't have the subconsciousness 'meaness' to thoroughly reduce their enemies to quivering masses of jelly.
This is why the people in charge invented religions. Because without some sort of fictitious 'final reward', humans would behave like animals. Being 'good' would be pointless. Unfortunately, that also means we'd have zero civilization - we WOULD be 'mere animals'. Thus, 'morality' was invented.
People sometimes ask me how I can possibly be a so smart, and yet still be very religious (especially since deep down, I know religions are works of fiction). Its because without that moral-compass stamped over my personality, I'd revert to my reptilian brain, and make Hanibal Lector look like an amateur. Thus, religion itself becomes 'a necessary evil'.
So getting back to the topic - a group of wizards who have no problem with becoming liches - something evil, gross, and anathema to life itself - would not be defeated so easily, EVER. They have ZERO moral compass. They would win every time. Ed, being the very smart man he is, probably realized this, and that's why we need the Chosen 'Justice League', because without that OP counter-agent, a fantasy setting makes little sense.
This is why I have never used a dragon in my games, and never will. I've seen a video of a crocodile ripping the bumper off a car. And there are dozens of videos showing what an elephant can do to a vehicle. Plate-mail would be a joke. And they aren't super-smart, or have armor-plating scales, or breath fire, etc., etc. A 'knight in shining armor' would not stand a chance against an actual creature like that, no matter how 'good' he may be. Evil is POWER, and power rules, always. You can't rule through weakness. Organizations like the Red Wizards and the Zhents don't rise to the positions they are in just to make a bunch of asinine mistakes. That makes no sense. If Thay has the ability to do this - to annihilate 50 cities whenever they wanted - i just don't see how Aglarond has ever beaten them, or Rashemen for that matter.
And don't even get me started on why they never bother trying to takeover non-entities like Thesk, or the Great Dale. They turned aside the Tuigan Horde! A group that defeated Shou-lung, which is an empire they size of Faerūn itself. And yet, they can't defeat a bunch of farmers with pitchforks. Go figure. Tam should have had the Simbul in a cage in his lab, or stuffed and mounted like a trophy.
Unless someone here can explain to me how the Simbul is more powerful than Bane? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2018 19:06:50 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 19:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
"They're so ebil they are stupid" is something I never accepted.
Code of Ettins! 
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well they had that nuke. They used it and destroyed 50 of the 100000 settlements in faerun and then the nuke broke and they cant use it anymore.
They don't need a nuke if they have cluster bombs and uncontested delivery.
Consider possibility: a wizard repeatedly casts spells like fire trap or spelltouch (safe 4th-level one, not the abridged version) for a month or three, stockpiles the results, then grabs it, 'ports with a few apprentices into visual range of the target and summons a few flying monsters (or transforms some of the local cattle into darkenbeasts, depending on the school and convenience). For example.
Non-magical conflagration will finish the job.
Of course, once hostile wizards hear about this and decide to look into it, this sort of a trick would become too risky. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know, the one thing I don't like about all of this is that on the one hand, Portals/Gates are supposed to be really hard to create, and very important (logistically) when one is found, and on the other hand, we get people creating whole batches of them, willy-nilly, all over the lace.
If teleportation magic is really this easy (and you can move around numbers of beings on that scale), then why isn't everyone doing it, all the time? It just doesn't make sense, IMO.
EDIT:
We can't even blame it on Netheril's fall (and magic changing), because its too recent. I'm really not feeling at ease with that lore, as-is. Its just seems very broken to me. Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!)
Well I think that's largely down to misconception.
Magic isn't easy or cost free. In fact it should be darned expensive (and in my game it is - each spell costs 1sp per spell level to cast and your average commoner makes less than 10sp in a year and merchants earn less than 1-10gp in a year and nobles earn less than 100gp in a year and kings earn less than 1000gp in a year. And they all have to use up half in costs. I kept magic item creation costs the same so they are prohibitively expensive to make - you don't make a magic item unless you are commissioned to by someone rich although acquiring all the reagents through adventurers can reduce the cost to almost nothing but that would take years. You certainly can't sell a magic item in a shop they just aren't that common.
So casting a magic spell is expensive especially teleport which is level 5-7 I think (5sp to cast on top of any other unique reagents required).
I reckon the other misconception is that of portals and gates. You can create a portal with a spell or two and it will last an amount of time depending upon the distance (the further the distance the shorter it lasts and the more errors that occur if its used). To make it two way you have to travel to the other end and cast the same spell the other way. This is purely a magic force and is essentially invisible. Wizards can learn how to cast this spell for themselves - its not super advanced magic.
Elves use this all the time and they create lots of short distance portals (100 miles) to allow them to jump all over the place (hence the portal networks). They make them permanent to last longer but even that doesn't last forever.
The gates of Imaskar however are great big stargate like structures made of rare metals and inscribed with batrachi style runes and infused with tons of magic like a gigantic teleportation artefact (which they are). These cost millions to make but they allow risk free teleportation (two way) to any other stargate terminus over any distance. Or they can be used to create a portal just as the spell does to any other destination (but of course its only one way).
The portal magic is relatively easy to access and less expensive in the short term of history. THe gates are the rare and expensive magic - that's what the twisted rune wanted when they kidnapped Halaster. Its what the batrachi and sarrukh used too. The gates are hellishly expensive in the short term but over the history of a nation they become cheap.
At least that's how I'm playing it.
I like this analogy for different types of gates/portals. One of the things I should probably "introduce" is that the portals between my remote tharchs should start becoming unstable now that a century has passed. Maybe in fact they were so new that they survived the spellplague, but a lot of them popped during the Sundering and just quit working. Thus, I end up with localized Tharchs who work with each other a lot (i.e. Esh Alakar & Balduran Bay OR Lopango & the two in Katashaka OR Peleveran & Wizard's Reach). It would give a lot more power to Mythrell'aa and her spelljammers as a central point that people use to traverse between tharchs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well they had that nuke. They used it and destroyed 50 of the 100000 settlements in faerun and then the nuke broke and they cant use it anymore.
Then they had that other artifact that acted like a massive spell pool but that broke too.
Their nuke is being an organization of wizards that runs a country.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And the red wizards are believed stupid for the same reason that countries are believed stupid. They do things that counter themselves and their own actioms and they do it for the same reason as america has just run out of money to pay its own government. Inside the red wizards there are many competing factions that will do anything (including hinder themselves) to weaken their opposing factions.
Thay creates a huge army and wastes it. Well that was probably one faction plotting against the other and changing generals or even attacking the army that the other faction made.
Its all just about greedy short sighted people doing unimaginably stupid things just to get petty revenge. A lot like real life
Except that they wouldn't be able to cast spells if that was the case, so they wouldn't be Red "Wizards" to begin with.
I'm sick and tired of people playing high-intelligence characters like idiots the same way I'm sick and tired of wizards doing idiotic things just because they're evil.
Being good doesn't make people smart, being evil doesn't make people stupid.
Yet evil wizards (Thayan, Zhents, random cabalists, etc...) are consistently more idiotic than your run of the mill Cormyrean War Wizard or Harper Wizard or member of the Watchful Order of Magists ad Protectors with no other reason than artistic choice. That's all good in the novels but has no bearing on my Realms.
But this is not getting us anywhere because is something I strongly feel about and I don't think is useful to start this kind of debate here, sorry.
So, just to get back kind of on topic after my rant, assuming that the "Orcgates" operation was conducted while the Red Wizards (the canonical, published ones) were acting as a collective force with the goal of freeing Thay, I see no problem in them using all kinds of Teleportation Circles, Gates (the spell not the fixed ones), altered summonings (just like regular "Summon Monster ..." but picking specific kind of creatures from specific places) and other ways all pumped with circle magic to do something as big as that.
There is a reason people fear organized groups of spellcasters (be they wizards, socrcerers, clerics or whatever), they can really ruin your day, I just wish it was like that consistently across the alignment range. Good guys/gals can do impressive things with magic, bad guys/gals should be able to do the same.
First off, I obviously love the red wizards.... however, let's not confuse INTELLIGENCE with WISDOM. I work in IT and a I know many intelligent people (daresay, I believe I'm one of them). However, the more intelligent people that I've seen are about as WISE as a box of rocks. They're too caught up in the intricacies of how to make X convert to Y and put it into a loop that produces Z to realize that.... they're girlfriend's cheating on them with their best friend, and she's stealing money (and that's just an example mind you). Even worse, when they find out, they justify things in their head rather than deal with the problem.
The red wizards are a bit short sighted because they are so hyper focused on their research. They're a burning desire to learn the next mystery of magic. They just need someone else to manage all the other stuff for them... but lost the hubris and learn to listen to those people as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:59:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pound for pound, all things being even, 'evil' should ALWAYS trump 'good'.
Why? Because of the lack of a moral compass - in an altercation, having morals is a disadvantage.
...
Organizations like the Red Wizards and the Zhents don't rise to the positions they are in just to make a bunch of asinine mistakes. That makes no sense. If Thay has the ability to do this - to annihilate 50 cities whenever they wanted - i just don't see how Aglarond has ever beaten them, or Rashemen for that matter.
...
Unless someone here can explain to me how the Simbul is more powerful than Bane?
"Evil" attacks itself just as readily as it attacks "Good". Pre-Spellplague Thay is dysfunctional because no one trusts anyone, they can't work together for any concerted period of time, and have differing agendas and goals. As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the power of the former has yet to be detailed in any significant way - you'll note that Rashemen keeps defeating Thayan invasions and never launches offensives into Thayan territory. That tells you something about the power of the magic inherent in the very soil and air of Rashemen. As for Aglarond, it has some great natural defences and the direct aid of Mystra's agents (see the Shadowstaves entry in "Secrets of the Magister" and my vignette in GHotR for 1365 DR at p.148) as well as elven wards and a decayed mythal in the Yuirwood to tap into. In simple terms, against Rashemen and Aglarond specifically, Thayan spells don't work too well.
The Simbul IS more powerful than Bane when the latter is spell-constrained in a summoning circle.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 21 Jan 2018 02:01:14 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 02:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pound for pound, all things being even, 'evil' should ALWAYS trump 'good'.
Why? Because of the lack of a moral compass - in an altercation, having morals is a disadvantage.
...
Organizations like the Red Wizards and the Zhents don't rise to the positions they are in just to make a bunch of asinine mistakes. That makes no sense. If Thay has the ability to do this - to annihilate 50 cities whenever they wanted - i just don't see how Aglarond has ever beaten them, or Rashemen for that matter.
...
Unless someone here can explain to me how the Simbul is more powerful than Bane?
"Evil" attacks itself just as readily as it attacks "Good". Pre-Spellplague Thay is dysfunctional because no one trusts anyone, they can't work together for any concerted period of time, and have differing agendas and goals. As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the power of the former has yet to be detailed in any significant way - you'll note that Rashemen keeps defeating Thayan invasions and never launches offensives into Thayan territory. That tells you something about the power of the magic inherent in the very soil and air of Rashemen. As for Aglarond, it has some great natural defences and the direct aid of Mystra's agents (see the Shadowstaves entry in "Secrets of the Magister" and my vignette in GHotR for 1365 DR at p.148) as well as elven wards and a decayed mythal in the Yuirwood to tap into. In simple terms, against Rashemen and Aglarond specifically, Thayan spells don't work too well.
The Simbul is more powerful than Bane when the latter is spell-constrained in a summoning circle.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 13:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
First off, I obviously love the red wizards.... however, let's not confuse INTELLIGENCE with WISDOM.
I know perfectly well the difference between the two, it doesn't explain why all evil wizards do the exact same errors (over and over) while all the good ones are exempt. Also the degree to which they f**k things up everytime would mean that every evil wizard is not just "not wise" but has to have below average wisdom.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the power of the former has yet to be detailed in any significant way - you'll note that Rashemen keeps defeating Thayan invasions and never launches offensives into Thayan territory. That tells you something about the power of the magic inherent in the very soil and air of Rashemen. As for Aglarond, it has some great natural defences and the direct aid of Mystra's agents (see the Shadowstaves entry in "Secrets of the Magister" and my vignette in GHotR for 1365 DR at p.148) as well as elven wards and a decayed mythal in the Yuirwood to tap into.
On Aglarond I definitely agree, even without resortigng to less known or apparent reasons, the presence of The Simbul and the help she can bring in even if "beaten" (I like to think there had to be a couple of times in history when The Simbul really struggled and was on the verge or defeat just to be helped/rescued by her Sisters, Khelben, Elminster, the Magister, the Nameless/Invisible Chosen and every other kind of agent of Mystra and/or Azuth) is enough of a deterrent to avoid ever trying overt conquest again. But this should leave them other "minor" and more subtle ways to try and get into Aglarond and weaken it.
The stupidity of the Red Wizards lies in the fact they keep trying in very basic ways ("we lost against The Simbul again, we need more zombies!" ...).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In simple terms, against Rashemen and Aglarond specifically, Thayan spells don't work too well.
Rashemen is the big mistery here, even if we know nothing about the magic of the land I would assume that people so bent on conquering a place and into magical research would (duh!) do some research as to why they can't do some things just next door.
It's like writing and trying to compile the exact same script over and over (substituting the variable "undeads" with "gnolls" or "orcs" is irrelevant) and failing each time and not even trying to look at the reasons while you're failing. You just wait some time and compile the script again and it should work because ...?
This is clearly a stupid thing to do (not "unwise" or "not sensible", it's stupid) and yet they do it all the time. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 14:30:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The stupidity of the Red Wizards lies in the fact they keep trying in very basic ways ("we lost against The Simbul again, we need more zombies!" ...).
<snip>
Rashemen is the big mistery here, even if we know nothing about the magic of the land I would assume that people so bent on conquering a place and into magical research would (duh!) do some research as to why they can't do some things just next door.
It's like writing and trying to compile the exact same script over and over (substituting the variable "undeads" with "gnolls" or "orcs" is irrelevant) and failing each time and not even trying to look at the reasons while you're failing. You just wait some time and compile the script again and it should work because ...?
This is clearly a stupid thing to do (not "unwise" or "not sensible", it's stupid) and yet they do it all the time.
I get what you're saying, but not all of the red wizards are attempting to obtain power via this blunt means. One of the things I've seen people decrying around here is how horrible the enclaves or "Thaymarts" were. However, if you look at it, they were being given tracts of land that were sovereign soil all around the world. They were also apparently making a lot of money at it. In fact, in my personal take on this, the red wizards were giving away magical trinkets and accepting loads of "cheap" resources in return (one of the big ones in my view was timber, but also things like simple construction materials, or even raw ores for smelting, etc...). I'm also betting that these same enclaves were secretly working with many locals to get rid of their "trash" humanoids in the region (as in local adventurers might round up kobolds, goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.... that no one will miss and sell them to the enclaves maybe out in the countryside... and the red wizards would secretly transport them back to their enclaves to send as slaves). In fact, in my viewpoint, it was these enclaves that allowed many red wizards and non-red wizards survive despite a personal civil war that would have destroyed other civilizations. Of course, in my homebrew, a lot of these construction resources (both materials and slaves) were being clandestinely sent up to Fort Flame/Balduran Bay in the years leading up to the spellplague (and this enclave ended up with a LOT of skeletal undead guardians as a result.... with new slaves eating the flesh from the bodies of fallen slaves that came before...).
There were other instances where they were attempting to change their enemies via trade, such as shoring up those resisting Gilgeam's rule in Messemprar (which granted, they eventually also put an enclave there).
However, Samas Kul and his enclaves weren't the only ones doing things the right way. Lauzoril had several entries in realmslore where he had servants who were trying to conquer via surreptitious means without committing numerous Thayan resources. I'd bet Mythrell'aa was doing similar (in my homebrew she was).
So, it was the Szass Tam, Zulkir Maligor of transmutation, and the unnamed pre-Aznar Thrul and pre-Sabass of Thay Zulkirs of evocation and conjuration that were doing things that were openly aggressive in the 1350's & 1360's. So, that meant four non-wise Zulkirs bent on aggression (necro, conj, evoc, trans), two working slowly/carefully (Lauzoril/enchantment and Mythrell'aa/illusion), another who was an imperialist ally of Lauzoril (Yaphyll Sirtula/divination) but who switched sides seemingly to save her own neck to Tam. The final Zulkir wasn't interested in expansion, she was just enjoying life and sybaritic excesses (Lallara Mediocros/abjuration), and seemingly allied with Tam just to not have to deal with internal assassination attempts after the death moon orb seemingly started to affect him.
On the Rashemen piece... it might be very hard to study Rashemen and test things without being able to enter there.... and the spirits of Rashemen make it very hard to enter Rashemen and the witches not knowing about it. Essentially, they have spies EVERYWHERE.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Jan 2018 14:37:02 |
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Orcgate Wars
