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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 02:15:28
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Okay, so thanks to Zero, I found a bunch of 5e D&D videos, and I like what I see. (I try to avoid Youtube - its like a black-hole for my free time LOL)
Mindflayers
Githyanki & Githzerai
The Gith one answers a LOT of questions, and YES, they are MOST DEFINITELY human. But they lay eggs (I had forgotten that, but the video points it out). Mike Mearls hints that the Mindflayers may have 'altered' them somehow. Also some interesting things about dragons (there as a connection there I hand't noticed before), and even Giants were mentioned. Either someone has been listening to a lot of my theories, or this is an example of 'great minds think alike' (or rather, more like "drawing the same exact conclusions from the same exact lore spread over nearly 50 years").
Mindflayers altered them... dragons are somehow involved... Gith command (red) dragons and Tiamat is a staunch ally... Gith lay eggs... 
Mindflayers 'had' a universe-spanning empire, that used Spelljamming (and Mike Mearls is spinning it as a type 'dimensional travel', so it sounds like some of what myself and Gray Richardson came up with years ago is starting to become canon - that you are 'crossing into another plane' when you spelljam), and yet, there are NO MINDFLAYER RUINS. largest most powerful empire in all of existence, and there is no evidence of it, anywhere. All very mysterious. I'm really liking what I am hearing - folks are expecting - due to the direction of the recent videos - that some sort of planer handbook and/or spelljammer love is in the works. I think we are about to peel back another layer of D&D lore, folks.
Oh, and he makes a point of saying Tiamamt was imprisoned in the Nine Hells the whole time (that these deals were being struck). He repeats it in such a way that makes it suspect (like he wanted to make sure everyone needed to be aware of that fact, because something pivotal revolved around it). The whole thing reeks of being 'Doctor Who-ish' in flavor (TIME is definitely involved - he also harps on the 'timelessness' of it all).
I already find myself lining up to buy a book that hasn't even been announced yet!
Mindflayers aren't a race? He says that! They are just 'meat puppets'! I never looked at them that way before. Fascinating. I'm squirming in my chair right now.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 02:52:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 02:20:20
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Oh, and sorry for the side-topic, Dalor. I figure you must be done with the actual topic, since there is no information forthcoming.
HOWEVER (and this is a stretch lol), you might say that my discussing and linking to videos pertaining to 'other worlds' (and the planer/cosmological structure of the D&Dverse) pertains directly to the topic. It seems that the 'team' has gotten most of it what it wanted to out of FR, and they are broadening their scope for the next series of projects. So if Planes-hopping is going to be the next big thing (*cough* MtG Planeswalkers *cough*), then it stands to reason that right now the 'iron is hot' for stuff pertaining to traveling to other worlds 9the worlds themselves, and methods of getting there).
See how I brought that back around? If we ever finally meet in person, you can buy me a beer.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 03:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The Githyanki look the way they do, I would say, because of prolonged generations living upon the Astral Plane (where gravity is a non-issue really) AND because they live in imitation of their Lich-Queen.
The Githzerai lived for generations upon the Chaotic Neutral Plane of Pandemonium and so different "physics" were in play there.
I don't go by new art changing the entire look of a species and simply go with the idea that they are artistic representations only...not true anatomy.
That aside...this conversation took a wild turn away from where I was thinking it would go 
Not off topic at all...but it amazes me how the same thing can be talked about in such different ways.
Back to what I was trying to hit on to begin with:
Can anyone point me in a direction for information regarding what the Orc World that was responsible for the Orcgate Wars was like?
There is incredibly little information on that. In fact, I'm not sure that people from Toril ever went through and it may have only been in the other direction. The only places I can think it was mentioned was Old Empires, Powers and Pantheons, and Races of Faerun.
Markustay does have a good idea with basically stealing from the Warcraft concept though. A world filled with orcs, ogres, "forest trolls", minotaurs, etc... would very much work. The main thing is that these orcs are noted as being extremely religious, which might mean zealotry and sacrifices similar to what the Mazticans were doing.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Jan 2018 03:39:05 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 20:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You ever make meatballs? You got down to the last glop of chopmeat, and its too big for one meatball, so you rip it in half (best you can judge), and then roll it into two separate smaller balls.
Yeah... JUST LIKE THAT.
(Playdoh would also work - everyone played with playdoh).
-Right, which would have caused massive change to a whole ton of stuff that was never really catalogued in any way (pre- or -post-4e). You can invoke Ao "making no one remember" or something like that, but it's hokey.
-Really, what I am getting down to I guess, is that it was a retcon that was, and still is, stupid lol. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 17:16:19
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A couple of things:
Vhostym could destroy worlds...but couldn't use Wish Magic to heal his body?!  
The Orc-World of Ekur is coming along...going to be fun on that one.
Now back to "other worlds" shall we?
So we know that Elminster can visit Greyhawk and Krynn both apparently...not to mention OUR Earth. However, can someone tell me if there is any information about him visiting other "earths" or similar worlds? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 18:19:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A couple of things:
Vhostym could destroy worlds...but couldn't use Wish Magic to heal his body?!
My thing is, if all he wanted was an eclipse, instead of a convoluted plot to gain the power to move a celestial body -- why not just a big ball of magical darkness?
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Now back to "other worlds" shall we?
So we know that Elminster can visit Greyhawk and Krynn both apparently...not to mention OUR Earth. However, can someone tell me if there is any information about him visiting other "earths" or similar worlds?
Lost Ships contains a few passing references to Elminster visiting other crystal spheres. We also know he was an unwilling visitor to the saurial homeworld; we don't know anything about that particular world, other than a few visual details in the novel. Some theorize it is Abeir; I reject that, myself, since the novel was written before that retcon and because the saurials had gods. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 21:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Now back to "other worlds" shall we?
So we know that Elminster can visit Greyhawk and Krynn both apparently...not to mention OUR Earth. However, can someone tell me if there is any information about him visiting other "earths" or similar worlds?
Lost Ships contains a few passing references to Elminster visiting other crystal spheres. We also know he was an unwilling visitor to the saurial homeworld; we don't know anything about that particular world, other than a few visual details in the novel. Some theorize it is Abeir; I reject that, myself, since the novel was written before that retcon and because the saurials had gods.
Lost Ships? I don't think I have EVER read that...putting it on the list.
As for the Saurial Homeworld...what book was that in? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 22:06:43
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I believe it was in the Saurial trilogy, which was a 'pt.2' to the Finder/Alias trilogy.
IIRC, a powerful tricertops-looking wizard cast a spell that would allow two beings of equivalent power (proportionate to their respective worlds) to 'swap places'. you see normal teleportation/Gating between Toril and Ab... the Saurial homeworld... did not work. 
And Wooly, arguing that some thing 'didn't exist' at a certain point in time in a game/fictional setting is akin (to me) of saying the Earth couldn't possibly have been round during the Stoneage, else we would have heard about it from the Cavemen. 
A lack of knowledge about something we now know to have existed changes the way we need to address previous lore. Abeir did exist, but writers at that time did not know about it. Of course - from a meta-gaming PoV - it wasn't Abeir, but that does NOT preclude the fact that it now can be.
Oh, and the people on Eberron think they have 'gods' to. They're wrong. People are fallible (especially when it comes to religions), and gaming sourcebooks (especially when it comes to FR) are extremely fallible (only comics are worse, because they are constantly changing their continuity... which is why I no longer read them).
Lastly, there were primordials (and possibly primal spirits, archfey, etc) on Abeir. Its not like we have ANY canon saying some of those primordials - oh, lets just say the ELEMENTAL LORDS - were ever able to have Faiths and grant spells, now do we? Hmmmm? 
Oh, and just to be annoying... I think the Shalarin came from there too.
EDIT:
We could even look at it this way (thinking on the Shalarin thing now) - it is still 'one world' - Abeir Toril. We mortals can only interact with 3, possibly 4 (time) dimensions. There are a LOT more than that, and 'gods' (Overgods, etc) can interact with other layers we can't perceive. So if Ao shoved some of the world into a 'side place' (which is pretty-much what happened), then it is still 'One World' (the lore even says it occupies the same space, but is 'out of sync'). We mortals just can't 'see' (perceive) the place the rest of the world is in, and the folks that got stuck on that side can't perceive the Toril side. One world, with half the people not being able to 'see' the other (its a bit more complicated than that, but you get the idea).
In fact, there was one really good story in Jack Vance's Dying Earth novel where there were two groups of people living in an ancient city, and neither was aware of the other . They literally couldn't see each other, because of thousand of years of conditioning. An outsider comes along, and is confused as hell. All these people just passing by each other and completely ignoring one-another... but both could see him. I think that's what it might be like for some beings, in regards to Abeir and Toril. Maybe not deities, but perhaps some higher-lev types (like those Estelar, or Overpowers, or primordials themselves). Its like being on two sides of the same street, but those one one side can't see the other. Someone 'in the middle' would see both. One world - Abeir-Toril - separated in ways we mortals can't even fathom. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2018 22:12:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 04:09:08
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Again, we know other worlds exist beyond Abeir and Toril. I don't see where the benefit is in rewriting past lore to make Abeir fit as the saurial homeworld, instead of simply assuming that the saurial homeworld is another world.
We can do contortions to make something fit where it doesn't, or we can go with what the authors clearly intended: some other world (and one of the creators of the saurials was the guy who came up with the name Abeir-Toril for the name of the planet the Realms is on).
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 22:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Was the saurian homeworld firmly established as being in another crystal sphere or plane?
If not, there might be a possibility that it's an undiscovered planet in Realmspace.
Basically, all we know is that the plants were different, it had saurials and other reptilian critters, the saurials had gods, and when the world was scried upon, there was no mention of the sky being anything other than the standard issue blue.
However, we do have written descriptions of the other worlds of Realmspace, with nary a word about saurials.
There's also the fact that it didn't seem that difficult for Moander to access the world, cast a spell preventing straight teleportation, and then for Elminster to teleport away afterward -- thinks I that if Ao had gone thru all the effort of making a new world to keep primordials and deities separate, that it wouldn't been that easy to get to. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Jan 2018 22:07:55 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 23:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Was the saurian homeworld firmly established as being in another crystal sphere or plane?
If not, there might be a possibility that it's an undiscovered planet in Realmspace.
Basically, all we know is that the plants were different, it had saurials and other reptilian critters, the saurials had gods, and when the world was scried upon, there was no mention of the sky being anything other than the standard issue blue.
However, we do have written descriptions of the other worlds of Realmspace, with nary a word about saurials.
There's also the fact that it didn't seem that difficult for Moander to access the world, cast a spell preventing straight teleportation, and then for Elminster to teleport away afterward -- thinks I that if Ao had gone thru all the effort of making a new world to keep primordials and deities separate, that it wouldn't been that easy to get to.
Yeah, and Moander transported the Saurials via one of the standard outer planes, not a direct prime to prime connection (I forget where he transported them through).
Plus the second edition monstrous manual says this
Saurials are intelligent bipedal lizards descended from creatures similar to dinosaurs. Saurials are not native to the Realms, but originate from an alternate Prime Material Plane. Most saurials now in the Realms were kidnapped from their homes and brought to the Realms as slaves by the evil god Moander. Upon Moanders death, these saurials elected to remain in the Realms and make it their home. They live in a single village in the Lost Vale in the Desertsmouth Mountains east of Anauroch. They are still recovering physically and spiritually from the deprivations they suffered under Moander, so very few saurials travel far from the shelter of the Lost Vale, though this may change with the passing of the years and as their numbers increase.
Which hints heavily that they come from another crystal sphere. That being said, it wouldn't be a problem if they came from the same crystal sphere. The problem comes from them "coming" from Abeir in the modern age with gods, wizards, etc...
What does work is that we can have Saurials and Sarrukh originating on another world and coming to Abeir-Toril prior to the first (let's call it the "Batrachi Sundering" to separate it from the "Elven Sundering") Sundering. Then we can shoot all those Saurials over to Abeir just for flavor purposes, and we can have the ones that showed up in the novels coming from wherever that homeworld was. I think we all get a win out of doing it that way.
BTW, one of the things that this does deal with is that IF the sun was destroyed prior to this, how'd anything survive that needs it for heat. We simply have the "Sauroids" interloping to the world possibly during this Shadow Epoch (maybe even this is one way that Ubtao/Qotal betrayed the other primordials), but after a new sun source came along.
As an aside, this whole multiple destructions of the sun so fits the storylines of the central American mythologies that Quetzcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, and other deities reign as the sun at various points. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that traditional Aztec religion has "four Tezcatlipocas". There's the one named Tezcatlipoca (aka Tezca), Quetzcoatl (aka Qotal), Xipe Totec (the flayed one... aka Zaltec if we only take the warlike aspects of this god), and Huitzilopochtli (who it seems like they combined some of him into Qotal as he's represented by hummingbirds and butterflies and feathers)
From the wiki on Tezcatlipoca
Another story of creation goes that Tezcatlipoca turned himself into the sun, but Quetzalcoatl was furious possibly because they were enemies, he is a night god or due to his missing foot, so he knocked Tezcatlipoca out of the sky with a stone club. Angered, Tezcatlipoca turned into a jaguar and destroyed the world. Quetzalcoatl replaced him and started the second age of the world and it became populated again. Tezcatlipoca overthrew Quetzalcoatl, forcing him to send a great wind that devastated the world, and the people who survived were turned into monkeys. Tlaloc, the god of rain, then became the sun. But he had his wife taken away by Tezcatlipoca. Angered in turn, he would not make it rain for several years until, in a fit of rage, he made it rain fire with the few people who survived the assault turning into the birds. Chalchihuitlicue the Water Goddess then became the sun. But she was crushed by Tezcatlipoca's words who accused her of just pretending to be kind. She cried for many years and the world was destroyed by the resulting floods. Those people who survived the deluge were turned into fish. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 23:22:52
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I'm pretty sure the novels also didn't say the sky was blue. That was just an assumption at the time, just as we have no idea what the color of its seas might have been.
We know the saurials came from some other world - a world that was 'unheard of' before they came to the Realms (despite their already being NATIVE members of the race elsewhere on Toril!) In 4e we found out about some other world no-one ever heard of. The way I look at it, why wouldn't they be the same?
We have had novels contradicting the 4e lore (the original 4e lore - it morphed over time) that show BOTH gods and magic ON ABEIR. There are four primordials that we KNOW - from past lore - that were able to grant spells just like a god. Thus, it is entirely possible that their was some sort of religion on Abeir, whether the gods 'worked' or not (because it could have also been a case like Eberron - sure it had religions, but no-one was sure if they were real or not).
The ONLY argument, as far as I am concerned, that holds any water is that Abeir (as a separate world not attached to Toril) did not exist at that time - the time the novels about Saurials were written. But that argument is meta-gaming, and in-setting, there really is zero reason why the Saurial homeworld couldn't be Abeir. In fact, considering the odd bit of magic that the tricertops-dude had to do, (and the fact that Elminster seems to not only not have been there before, but he seemed to be having FUN, like a kid with a new toy!) I would say that the Saurial homeworld is definitely 'out of sync' with the rest of the D&Dverse. Otherwise, why isn't the world ever written-up or mentioned in any SJ product? Two can play at that 'it was not a thing' argument.
No Planescape or Ravenloft product either.. its like the saurial homeworld was somehow... HIDDEN... back then. Almost as if some Overpower (or dino-related ancient primal power... who may also BE that overpower) was trying to hide it or something. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jan 2018 01:11:56 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2018 : 01:53:57
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| The Sarrukh are not from another world, all the Creator races are native to Toril. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2018 : 03:43:02
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Nope, they're not.
And thats canon.
They were native to a world called Abeir-Toril, which no longer exists. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2018 : 03:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm pretty sure the novels also didn't say the sky was blue. That was just an assumption at the time, just as we have no idea what the color of its seas might have been.
We know the saurials came from some other world - a world that was 'unheard of' before they came to the Realms (despite their already being NATIVE members of the race elsewhere on Toril!) In 4e we found out about some other world no-one ever heard of. The way I look at it, why wouldn't they be the same?
We have had novels contradicting the 4e lore (the original 4e lore - it morphed over time) that show BOTH gods and magic ON ABEIR. There are four primordials that we KNOW - from past lore - that were able to grant spells just like a god. Thus, it is entirely possible that their was some sort of religion on Abeir, whether the gods 'worked' or not (because it could have also been a case like Eberron - sure it had religions, but no-one was sure if they were real or not).
The ONLY argument, as far as I am concerned, that holds any water is that Abeir (as a separate world not attached to Toril) did not exist at that time - the time the novels about Saurials were written. But that argument is meta-gaming, and in-setting, there really is zero reason why the Saurial homeworld couldn't be Abeir. In fact, considering the odd bit of magic that the tricertops-dude had to do, (and the fact that Elminster seems to not only not have been there before, but he seemed to be having FUN, like a kid with a new toy!) I would say that the Saurial homeworld is definitely 'out of sync' with the rest of the D&Dverse. Otherwise, why isn't the world ever written-up or mentioned in any SJ product? Two can play at that 'it was not a thing' argument.
No Planescape or Ravenloft product either.. its like the saurial homeworld was somehow... HIDDEN... back then. Almost as if some Overpower (or dino-related ancient primal power... who may also BE that overpower) was trying to hide it or something.
You are correct that the sky was not mentioned at all -- but that, to me, is telling. Why would they mention the sky if it looked the same? It's only if the sky is different that it warrants mention.
Nehwon wasn't written up for Spelljammer, either -- but as there is at least one character from Nehwon in the Realms, it shows that Nehwon still existed.
Several other peoples and races have originated from worlds beyond Toril, too -- and none of those other worlds were written up for Spelljammer, either.
As for the "it was not a thing" argument -- the guy who named the world Abeir-Toril and who created the saurials said they were from another world; hence, they were not from Abeir-Toril.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why it's better to handwave everything known about saurials to have them be from Abeir. We know for a fact that there are multiple worlds out there, worlds that are not in Realmspace. We know for a fact that so many peoples and races of the Realms are from these other worlds. We know for a fact that the Realms is a kind of cosmic crossroads, with countless connections to other worlds and other planes.
Why can we not accept the saurials being from somewhere else entirely, especially when it's the origin we were given?
On a related note, if we're going to just assume that the saurials came from Abeir, why are we not doing the same for orcs, and the Mulan, and loxo, and all the other interlopers? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2018 : 13:40:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The Sarrukh are not from another world, all the Creator races are native to Toril.
Says???
Oh wait, maybe researchers trying to figure things out 37,000 years later? How much lore are WE lost about things that happened during the dark ages which was around a thousand years ago? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2018 : 22:34:10
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Gruumsh in Black Speach is: Gruum Ash'Su = Gruum One-Eye
So Gruumsh was actually an Orc from Middle-Earth who lost his eye to some damn Cormallen!
Cormallen - Sindarin word meaning 'Ring-bearers'.
Easy enough to get Corellon from Cormallen!
So there you have it...ol' Gary named Gruumsh after an Orc from Middle-Earth and Corellon from Cormallen...at least in my mind.
So now I know where the Orc Homeworld is... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2018 : 23:25:03
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So is Middle-Earth somewhere between Oerth and D&D Earth?
As for the Creator races, yes, when we first started getting any real lore about them, they were indeed FR-specific. However, the lore - and the nature of the D&Dverse itself - changed, as of 4e. We could possibly even say all those changes (and some of them are irreconcilable) could have happened in-setting, IF we use a McGuffin like Star Trek did, and say something reached backwards in time and changed things retroactively. We have at least two instances of that already happening in FR lore, so its not even all that unreasonable.
Or, if you're not a stickler and don't care as much, you can't use the much easier explanation that "it was always that way", but new information has come to light. I'm leaning mostly that way myself, now.
There was definitely a 'before world'. You can just use the Abeir-stuff as is, or do something along the lines of what I did and mergre it with the Dawn War and WoL&D (FR creation myth) and say that the world that existed before Abeir and Toril were created was the One True World - a unified Prime Material plane, that was shattered and is now fragmented into pieces (which also brings in the Scalyfolk myths regarding the world serpent).
Which means, YES, the sarrukh and the others were all native to proto-Toril, but then again, they were native to everywhere else, as well. The one thing FR has over all those other settings is that we have some scholars who actually know about the Creatori, whereas most settings have lost that information (it has been around 40K years).
And FR isn't the only setting I am doing this too - I am backwards engineering all the Eberron stuff about the giant/dragon wars so that it also happened in the 'before Time' (which it should have, if Realmspace is only as old as our lore says it is). I am hoping at this point to actually put something up on the DMsGuild with Katashaka (merging it with Xendrik) by blending the lore in this manner. Since most D&D worlds have evidence of most of the common races (even things like yuan-ti), it stands to reason that the Creator races HAD TO have been much more 'monolithic' then we've been lead to believe. Panspermia from a unified source, as it were. Faerūn is just unique because it was central to all of the primordial goings-on.
I am going to need to start using the word 'antideluvian', as Brian James did in his GHotR vingette. Saying 'primordial' as a term now gets it mixed up with the beings of the same name. And I can even make it work, despite sounding grammatically incorrect (I did so elsewhere, in something i wrote very recently - that the 'seas of chaos' came flooding in when the prime was shattered). Thus, the 'deluge' in antideluge becomes a matter of the Elemental Maelstrom. Besides, 'antideluvian' sounds more Lovecraftian, and the 4e lore scooped plenty of that onto us as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jan 2018 23:34:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 02:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Gruumsh in Black Speach is: Gruum Ash'Su = Gruum One-Eye
So Gruumsh was actually an Orc from Middle-Earth who lost his eye to some damn Cormallen!
Cormallen - Sindarin word meaning 'Ring-bearers'.
Easy enough to get Corellon from Cormallen!
So there you have it...ol' Gary named Gruumsh after an Orc from Middle-Earth and Corellon from Cormallen...at least in my mind.
So now I know where the Orc Homeworld is...
There's also a halfling deity named for a hobbit... Brandobaris is clearly named after Bandobras Took, the Bullroarer. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 09:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nehwon wasn't written up for Spelljammer, either -- but as there is at least one character from Nehwon in the Realms, it shows that Nehwon still existed.
Who? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 10:03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nehwon wasn't written up for Spelljammer, either -- but as there is at least one character from Nehwon in the Realms, it shows that Nehwon still existed.
Who?
Page 83 of Code of the Harpers: quote:
His companion at the time he fought alongside the Knights was the Nehwon ghoul Lacheera (an axe-wielding warrior-woman of a race from another plane), but more recently Tamper has been seen alone, strangling Zhentilar and Zhentarim in Daggerdale to aid Randal Morn.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jan 2018 10:04:09 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 11:14:40
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| But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 12:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.
The original 1st edition Deities and Demi-gods had Nehwon entries in it. There was also an ORIGINAL original 1st edition Deities and Demigods that included the Cthulhu mythos, but for some reason they had to pull Cthulhu out (betting over copyright issues.... though for a lot of us, that was where we first heard of Cthulhu and H.P. Lovecraft, so it probably helped him and gained them more notoriety) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 13:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.
At the time Code of the Harpers was published, TSR had rights to and was publishing D&D material under the Lankhmar imprint. They published about a dozen products. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 14:34:05
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| Never noticed that. I have no problem with being able to get from Newhon to FR but it does say Plane and not Sphere, which suggests spelljamming would not work. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 14:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.
The original 1st edition Deities and Demi-gods had Nehwon entries in it. There was also an ORIGINAL original 1st edition Deities and Demigods that included the Cthulhu mythos, but for some reason they had to pull Cthulhu out (betting over copyright issues.... though for a lot of us, that was where we first heard of Cthulhu and H.P. Lovecraft, so it probably helped him and gained them more notoriety)
Yeah, that was the first time I saw Cthulhu anywhere, even though I never became a fan. When it started becoming popular many years later I was pleasantly surprised.
Personally, I think all the Far-Realm crap was just WOTC trying to bypass those laws and copy the strange gods/and creatures. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 14:48:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.
The original 1st edition Deities and Demi-gods had Nehwon entries in it. There was also an ORIGINAL original 1st edition Deities and Demigods that included the Cthulhu mythos, but for some reason they had to pull Cthulhu out (betting over copyright issues.... though for a lot of us, that was where we first heard of Cthulhu and H.P. Lovecraft, so it probably helped him and gained them more notoriety)
Yeah, that was the first time I saw Cthulhu anywhere, even though I never became a fan. When it started becoming popular many years later I was pleasantly surprised.
Personally, I think all the Far-Realm crap was just WOTC trying to bypass those laws and copy the strange gods/and creatures.
I don't think it was as much trying to work around the copyright laws as it was trying to appeal to people that like the Cthuhlu stuff. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 18:59:20
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| Exactly - it was "oh, you want to spend your money on strange wiggly monsters? fine, here you go, as many strange wiggly monsters as you can handle" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 19:00:36
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From what I understand, most of the Cthulhu stuff - at least the original stuff written by Lovecraft - was always 'open source'. Its in the Public Domain because he wanted it that way. That's why so many writers have used his toys overt he years. His contemporaries contributed to the mythos, and most of them also made anything Cthulhu-related 'public domain', so they could all write stories that felt like they were written in some very real, alternate world (or worse, in our world, about stuff we just didn't know about before).
But as time went on, newer authors lost sight of his vision (ie, became greedy gits), and wouldn't 'share their toys' anymore, and that's why the entire mythology has become fragmented and runs in several directions. Anyone can write stories (and be published) within the Cthulhu mythos, but you just have to be VERY careful about which toys you use. The most basic ones are public domain, but many others (now) are not.
Ya know, Lovecraft may have just been the inventor of the 'shared world' setting concept, but sadly, he is never really given credit for that. He's just given credit for anything with tentacles.
And I don't think it was so terrible (in hindsight, now) that WotC wanted to bring more 'antideluvian horrors' into D&D. They were always there, hidden in the background. The problem was that they wanted to focus on them too much (Eberron is practically dripping with the stuff), and thats NOT how 'horror' works. Its only really scary when it remains mostly unknown. When you flaunt your monsters too much, you turn Cthulhu into Sigmund the Sea Monster.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Exactly - it was "oh, you want to spend your money on strange wiggly monsters? fine, here you go, as many strange wiggly monsters as you can handle"
It doesn't help when one of the lead-people on the 4e team was enamored with precisely that kind of stuff. He probably didn't want to write for Eberron - where it is a much better fit - because Eberron wasn't really a 'novel setting' like FR was. Their novels just never really took-off (we go back to the whole problem of 'soft canon' here).
But now I am getting right back into the problem of having your in-house guys be able to give themselves writing contracts. The setting starts to look very much like someone's 'homebrew', or worse, several homebrews glued-together. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2018 19:07:07 |
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Other Worlds of the Forgotten Realms
