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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 01:41:48
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Just curious... this entry from GHotR... Do we have any information on either Zhoukoudien or Omo? While the initial thought is that the Titan would be a traditional Titan ala Annam's brood... that can't be the case since Annam and Othea don't produce their children for another 1500 years. So, I'm guessing Omo is a dawn titan aka primordial who killed the leader of the Batrachi? And since he was a "thane" he was some kind of "chieftain"/"leader" amongst primordials.
c. 31500 DR
Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High Ones reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo.
SIDENOTE: You just don't KNOW how much I'd love to change that name of Omo to Mormo (a titan from the Scarred Lands setting by Sword and Sorcery..... Mormo, Mother of Serpents, Queen of Witches who created the serpentine races)... but damned if that wouldn't be mixing the lore of White Wolf and WotC and THAT would border on illegal. Of course.... if it were Omo, Mother of Serpents, Queen of Witches... that's not technically... nah, don't go there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 01:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.
It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.
The problem is in saying that the saurials were on Abeir before coming to the Realms -- because again, they had gods, and Abeir does not have gods. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 01:49:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Is it possible that Nerath IS Abeir? (or rather, a part of Abeir - its not a world map). Sticking the Nentir Vale on Abeir would make the conversion I was doing SO much easier.
That was the theory of the time, but the lore of Nerath make this a mess if you want to go that way. Much like the saurial world, Nerath has gods (gods as in divine beings, not just primordials, that also exists in that world), so this already rules out Abeir as the world were Nerath is located.
For adding stuff, is the fact that Nerath is not a world dominated by dragons. It was, in ancient past. While in Abeir, dragons dominate the world currently.
So, making Abeir the world were Nerath exist would take the same level of handwaving as doing the same with the saurial world.
Incidentally, Nerath has more in common with Greyhawk than with the Realms. It shares the alternate "Earth" spelling of Oerth and its parallel sibling worlds. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 01:51:01
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| Random side note - I always assumed that Omo was taken from the island name in Denmark. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 01:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.
It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.
The problem is in saying that the saurials were on Abeir before coming to the Realms -- because again, they had gods, and Abeir does not have gods.
(bonks Wooly on the head)...man you are stubborn... reread what I said 
Oh, and since you're doing that stubborn thing, I'll play back at ya... Abeir does not have gods, just as much as Toril does not have Primordials.... There are no absolutes.... and I'll take it further, just to nettle things.... and during the spellplague since Primordials were allowed to transfer from Abeir.... the reverse may also be true. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 02:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Question: "Abeir-Toril" is "Toril", correct? "Abeir" was created out of nothing, but "Toril" remained the same, sans certain elements that were sent to "Abeir".
-That's how I remember it, but I don't know if anything has been further explained (and a lot of explanation was needed).
In 1e through 3.5e, Abeir-Toril was the Forgotten Realms.
4e gave us an explanation that the Forgotten Realms was Toril and it had a "twin" of it that was created long ago in -31000 DR (an event hinted at in GHotR which came out just before 4e). The twin was named Abeir.
Thus, the world PRIOR to the twinning via this conjecture was Abeir-Toril. Now, I'd imagine many people continued to call "Toril" by the name "Abeir-Toril" after this twinning... and I'd imagine similar happened on Abeir. Thus, the confusion. Or at least, that's the easiest way to explain the sudden retcon.
-No, I know that; Abeir originally meant nothing and was added to make the planet at the beginning chronologically of the big Forgotten Realms info codex, yada, yada, yada, I'm not new here lol.
-I meant, post 4e retcon, did "Abeir-Toril" disappear and in its place two separate planets, "Abeir" and "Toril"s magically appear, or did only "Abeir" magically appear and the planet that was once "Abeir-Toril" continue to exist, now called "Toril". The latter, fine, it works, but the former, that causes some huge continuity issues that, yeah, you can explain away with the deus ex machina of Ao, but still |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Jan 2018 02:18:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 02:29:38
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You ever make meatballs? You got down to the last glop of chopmeat, and its too big for one meatball, so you rip it in half (best you can judge), and then roll it into two separate smaller balls.
Yeah... JUST LIKE THAT. 
(Playdoh would also work - everyone played with playdoh). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 03:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.
It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.
The problem is in saying that the saurials were on Abeir before coming to the Realms -- because again, they had gods, and Abeir does not have gods.
(bonks Wooly on the head)...man you are stubborn... reread what I said
Oh, and since you're doing that stubborn thing, I'll play back at ya... Abeir does not have gods, just as much as Toril does not have Primordials.... There are no absolutes.... and I'll take it further, just to nettle things.... and during the spellplague since Primordials were allowed to transfer from Abeir.... the reverse may also be true.
I'm not being stubborn; I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. What I think you're saying is that the saurials came from some unknown world, from there went to Abeir, and from there to Toril.
But the saurials of the Lost Vale came from a world with gods. This occurred before the Spellplague. Therefore, the world the saurials came from is not Abeir. It's the simplest solution and the only one that fits all the facts.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 04:36:49
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| The WHOLE thing was part of that terrible story-telling I mentioned before. They had an idea and smashed it's metaphorical square peg into Toril's similarly metaphorical round hole. Huge mess with 0 pay-off in the end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 14:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not being stubborn; I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. What I think you're saying is that the saurials came from some unknown world, from there went to Abeir, and from there to Toril.
But the saurials of the Lost Vale came from a world with gods. This occurred before the Spellplague. Therefore, the world the saurials came from is not Abeir. It's the simplest solution and the only one that fits all the facts.
No, I'm saying the saurials and Sarrukh maybe came from "Sauroid World" (let's call it that for now) WAAYYYY back 37'ish millennia back (or more). A few Millenia later, the world was twinned. Most of the saurials and maybe the sarrukh went to Abeir. Fast Forward to the 1300's DR, and Moander brings over a new small load of Saurials from said same "Sauroid World". The "lacerials" of Malatra were probably also either imports from a later connection to "Sauroid World" (i.e. a second migration before Moanders) or just some that never transferred to Abeir. The only reason I say all this is to put Saurials on Abeir, since with all the descriptions, it would seem they'd fit the theme.... and it lets us also bring BACK more saurials FROM Abeir as a result of the 2nd sundering if we want to. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 14:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not being stubborn; I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. What I think you're saying is that the saurials came from some unknown world, from there went to Abeir, and from there to Toril.
But the saurials of the Lost Vale came from a world with gods. This occurred before the Spellplague. Therefore, the world the saurials came from is not Abeir. It's the simplest solution and the only one that fits all the facts.
No, I'm saying the saurials and Sarrukh maybe came from "Sauroid World" (let's call it that for now) WAAYYYY back 37'ish millennia back (or more). A few Millenia later, the world was twinned. Most of the saurials and maybe the sarrukh went to Abeir. Fast Forward to the 1300's DR, and Moander brings over a new small load of Saurials from said same "Sauroid World". The "lacerials" of Malatra were probably also either imports from a later connection to "Sauroid World" (i.e. a second migration before Moanders) or just some that never transferred to Abeir. The only reason I say all this is to put Saurials on Abeir, since with all the descriptions, it would seem they'd fit the theme.... and it lets us also bring BACK more saurials FROM Abeir as a result of the 2nd sundering if we want to.
Ah, so two sets of saurials, one on Saurialworld, one on Abeir. Gotcha -- I wasn't catching that you were speaking of two different sets.
I don't see any reason why that couldn't work, though I still feel that it's simpler to just stick with the one Saurialworld. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 17:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Have races evolve on multiple worlds at different times is how im handling the same races being on different worlds.
That way i dont have to deal with other worlds mythology hardly at all. If dwarves on krynn sprang out of a gem then fine, on toril the dwarves were created by moradin. Dragons on greyhawk may have been created by some gods but on toril they evolved rapidly after the tearfall.
Makes things easier for me and it doesnt have to exclude cross pollination from other worlds either. Orcs from faerie and some other world (grey orcs) both arrive on toril separately.
It lets you avoid mythology, but then gives you the issue of having all these worlds populated by a host of plants, intelligent races, and various animals, that all somehow managed to evolve into identical forms. Sure, concurrent evolution is a thing, but entire worlds with identical critters? To me, that's just way too problematic an idea.
Since you hate all matters divine, anyway, why let mythology push you into an even more ridiculous direction? Go with one common origin for everything and say all mythology is just local legends. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jan 2018 17:25:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 18:44:56
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And you can leave-out the mythology if you want. According to Quantum physics (one theory, anyway), universes get created when planes 'bump' into each other. That tiny 'spark' (compared to an infinite plane) that occurs as they pass each other is the basis for the Big Bang.
Thus, if we picture the original Prime Material as one of these mega-planes (the 3rd dimension), and it rubbed against another (The Far Realms? Whatever universe the Obyriths come from?), that collision causes the D&Dverse to be formed out of it.
So if you hate gods (and we all know someone who does LOL), you can just leave them out, and say those beings that call themselves gods are just uber-powerful, nigh-immortal races that are truly ancient, and have just been taking credit for everything.
Also, it should be nearly impossible to find members of the original, pre-Sundering Creatori. Unless they're in suspended animation most of the time (or liches, like the sarrukh), they should all be gone, through attrition. And at the same time, we DO find members of these races, EVERYWHERE - like humanity that has become a thousand thousand different ethnicities throughout the cosmos, and in some cases, have diverged so completely down side-paths of evolution you can't even tell they were once human (like the Gith).
In the Citybooks series from Flying Buffalo (under their 'Catalyst' banner), they had one very interesting NPC who was a 'First man'. He IS one of those surviving originals, like an Immortal from the highlander series (except he was not looking to take any heads LOL). I believe DC comics has a similar character (didn't he bring back Robin?) Its fun to think about - that each world has one of these dudes (or ladies), operating in the background, and they get kind of annoyed if another shows up on what they consider their world. It harkens back to the Chronicles of Amber series, which Ed has said he was greatly inspired by. So maybe the Terraseer is even more than what we thought he was - he is one of those originals that has survived through the ages, taking different forms, and 'guiding' cultures for his own, obscure agenda. Or like that guy Enik from the old Land of the Lost TV series - he had to live amongst his won, primitive kind, even though he himself was a highly advance, ancient being (the others - the sleestack - were like lizardmen/sauroids). There are versions of the 'ancient immortal man' in literature we can use as reference as well - its one of the few, NOT over-used tropes. Heck, the whole Well of Souls series of novels was based around the concept ("The Wandering Jew"). Except here we can extend it to include members of all four Creator-Races. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 18:45:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:06:52
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Larry Niven's Known Space setting uses an interesting twist on all that: He has it where humans - as we know them today - aren't really a race at all. We are a 'pupal stage' for another race, that got abandoned on Earth and never evolved properly (we were missing certain 'ingredients' to start the metamorphosis process). The race were the Pak, and in some of his novels he touches upon it (in the Ringworld books - his most famous works - a human manages the evolution after all).
So the idea here, and the way we can re-spin it for FR/D&D - is that those 'First races' were all destroyed in the Great cataclysm, and the scant few survivors are working toward recreating them, by steering cultures and evolution down certain paths. Modern-day humans, Yuan-ti, Arakockra, even elves... are all just 'raw clay' to be molded back into the original design. At least, that's what most of the survivors would think (assume most of them have gone mad). We can even tie all the craziness with the Gith and illithids into this (I have an inkling of an idea for connecting illithids to the batrachi... batrachi don't have a 'current' offshoot of any prominence, and the illithid background is just vague enough for us to fiddle-around there).
EDIT:
And using this, I would respin The sojourner as yet another, except he would have come from the original human race (which doesn't have to look like us - the novels even made mention of the fact that he looked a little bit like a Gith). In fact, - without trying to give away too much - the whole premise of the story was that Toril was 'too bright' - that he was born there before all the current races, 'during a time of darkness'. Could he have been one of the last few Creatori born, before everything changed? He was literally born before the Crystal Spheres had been fully formed/completed? At the very least, he should have been from the defunct world of Abeir-Toril... which indicates that that pre-Sundered world was not nearly as well-lit (so, perhaps, before Selūne creates the first sun, and starts the fight with Shar?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 19:15:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Larry Niven's Known Space setting uses an interesting twist on all that: He has it where humans - as we know them today - aren't really a race at all. We are a 'pupal stage' for another race, that got abandoned on Earth and never evolved properly (we were missing certain 'ingredients' to start the metamorphosis process). The race were the Pak, and in some of his novels he touches upon it (in the Ringworld books - his most famous works - a human manages the evolution after all).
So the idea here, and the way we can re-spin it for FR/D&D - is that those 'First races' were all destroyed in the Great cataclysm, and the scant few survivors are working toward recreating them, by steering cultures and evolution down certain paths. Modern-day humans, Yuan-ti, Arakockra, even elves... are all just 'raw clay' to be molded back into the original design. At least, that's what most of the survivors would think (assume most of them have gone mad). We can even tie all the craziness with the Gith and illithids into this (I have an inkling of an idea for connecting illithids to the batrachi... batrachi don't have a 'current' offshoot of any prominence, and the illithid background is just vague enough for us to fiddle-around there).
EDIT:
And using this, I would respin The sojourner as yet another, except he would have come from the original human race (which doesn't have to look like us - the novels even made mention of the fact that he looked a little bit like a Gith). In fact, - without trying to give away too much - the whole premise of the story was that Toril was 'too bright' - that he was born there before all the current races, 'during a time of darkness'. Could he have been one of the last few Creatori born, before everything changed? He was literally born before the Crystal Spheres had been fully formed/completed? At the very least, he should have been from the defunct world of Abeir-Toril... which indicates that that pre-Sundered world was not nearly as well-lit (so, perhaps, before Selūne creates the first sun, and starts the fight with Shar?)
Vhostym the Sojourner was a githvyrik, another gith race. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Nah. I like markustays idea that the universe was once whole but then it got destroyed. These crystal spheres are just mini attempts at recreating the perfect original.
So life evolves in similar directioms on all the planets because its planned to do that. Its just that the original plan got broken and the new smaller versions are corrupted slightly. Its a bit hitchikers guide to the galaxy but it works for me.
Plus in a multiverse with magic and spelljammers and infinite planes, why cant you have planets which are operating to a program of sorts.
Who wrote the program and created the plan, if not someone divine?
And you can still go panspermia with Markus's Prime World -- everything developed there, first, and then migrated to the other worlds. So you've still got his one world, you've still got all identical lifeforms, you've got no divine intervention, and no ridiculous "everything everywhere evolved exactly the same!"
(Even with a single program, different hardware is going to introduce different parameters and thus different end results -- so unless the program's creator had everything hardcoded to be identical regardless of environs, then there would be minor differences even with single species in identical but separate environs) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jan 2018 19:43:07 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 21:20:12
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I thought it was the Dolphins? (So Long, and thanks for all the fish)
So what you are saying, Wooly, is that the Githvyrik ARE the human creator race? Good call!
That certainly fits the model I built using Larry Niven's Pak species. The Gith didn't diverge from us, we diverged from them. I like it.
I never discounted 'Panspermia' - I just spun it differently. I don't really like the whole 'spread outward' thing because it assumes there was something that came before (a world-hoping culture made of many different races... The Federation? ). Although i do take the 'that which came before' trope and use it, Its more like, "they didn't spread outward, the physical world they were on exploded, and they survived on pieces of it". So, less like a panspermia (since there is 'less' prime Material' than there would have been in the Before Time), then a 'survivor state' type of situation. They didn't move - most of the rest of the plane simply disappeared. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 21:21:24 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 22:19:24
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Okay, it took me FOREVER to find, but I KNEW there was a race I was thinking of...
In the 1e Fiend Folio Githyanki were specifically said to BE humans -
quote:
Millenia ago the mind flayers conquered a race of evil humans, and bound them to service.
Now, the pic inside doesn't look very human, but neither would an early hominid. the illustration on the cover is much better, and despite the sallow skin coloration, it appears that it could possibly be an emaciated (desiccated?) human, or human spin-off. Evolution and living with illithids will do that to you. On the other hand, the Githzerai looked VERY human - like human monks. This lead me to believe that it wasn't until after the split (which means AFTER their hard-won freedom from the illithids) did the githyanki start to look the weird way they do. Fast forward, and over the course of years and editions Githzerai have started to look like their Githyanki cousins. We also have some off-shoots, some of which don't look human at all (the Gith).
I'm not sure what to make of all that. i would hazard to gus some unknown factor (DNA) was spliced into their gene pool, and as much as I'd love to blame it on the illithids, most of the mutations appear to have occurred after they got away from them. Perhaps something to do with living I the Astral, but then why were the Githzerai eventually affected? Was it some sort of virus the Githynaki picked-up in the Astral and they passed it on to the githzerai? Also, the Githzerai looked more human when they had a truce with the illithids - could the theoretical 'Gith Virus' have been created/activated by the Illithids, and the mindflayers didn't spread it to the Githzerai until after they became more hostile toward one-another?
Be that as it may, I give you the Buomann from the 3e Planer Handbook, which - when I first layed eyes on it - just screamed 'old-school Githzerai' to me. I thought that's what it was, until i read the accompanying text. Those guys look more like the original (2e) Githzerai than the current Githzerai do! (elongated head and extremities, and the monk-like manner of dress)
So, anyone? Any ideas? Someone thought the Buomann were githzerai and hence the 'wrong' pics? (lame, but it works). The Buomann are ex-Githzerai who 'survived' the theoretical mutation virus? I'm not really loving anything I can come up with. Regardless, I will have to both agree and disagree with Wooly. The Gith were most certainly 'human', or, at least, part of the same species-classification that modern-day humans have derived from (so our forbears may not have looked all that much like either group, or it may have looked like something 'in the middle'). Something happened to the Gith (yanki and later zerai) that made them look very different.. almost 'reptilian'. And then we have a complete unrelated race that looks a lot like how one branch used to look.
Either way, I need to start separating-out modern humans from the Creator race - for the Creators I will use 'Mankind' (reminds me of 'Mankin'). Thus, we can fudge things like 'used to be human' - nearly every sub-group should be differing sub-groups from the originals. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 22:30:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 22:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
It didnt disappear. It fractured. Thats why we have space in a crystal sphere and then the bit beyond space (i think the ethereal plane was once described as the space between the planes. Its also why the transitive planes like faerie and shadow only allow travel between places in a single sphere (they also fractured), you can use the shadow plane to walk from waterdeep to anauroch but not to greyhawk.
Well, I was just trying to simplify things. Yes, pieces 'flew outward' from a common center (the Big Bang?), but to the people still existing* on all those pieces, it would just appear as if massive chunks of earth simply disappeared (I'm thinking a lot of the 'matter' wound up in the elemental planes, since those four PLUS the Prime is what I consider the Material plane).
*Note I say 'existing' rather than 'living', because I think that most - if not all - would have had to have been placed in some sort of suspended animation until such a time as the Crystal Spheres could be shaped back into habitable worlds. This may have been minutes, or countless millennia - we have no way of knowing. To those mortal races (and other flora and fauna), no time will have appeared to have passed. Thus, the sarrukh and others will have 'looked up and seen the skies darkening', and then suddenly its all over, but the world is suddenly very strange and different. They wouldn't know that a billion years may have gone by before they were re-seeded onto the worlds (or rather, the worlds were 'built around them').
For those of you who have read David Weber's excellent Safehold series, its like how all the humans woke-up on Safehold. They had no knowledge of 'the journey', and even their memories had been altered. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 22:29:45 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 22:36:41
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The Githyanki look the way they do, I would say, because of prolonged generations living upon the Astral Plane (where gravity is a non-issue really) AND because they live in imitation of their Lich-Queen.
The Githzerai lived for generations upon the Chaotic Neutral Plane of Pandemonium and so different "physics" were in play there.
I don't go by new art changing the entire look of a species and simply go with the idea that they are artistic representations only...not true anatomy.
That aside...this conversation took a wild turn away from where I was thinking it would go
Not off topic at all...but it amazes me how the same thing can be talked about in such different ways.
Back to what I was trying to hit on to begin with:
Can anyone point me in a direction for information regarding what the Orc World that was responsible for the Orcgate Wars was like? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 22:47:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
It didnt disappear. It fractured. Thats why we have space in a crystal sphere and then the bit beyond space (i think the ethereal plane was once described as the space between the planes. Its also why the transitive planes like faerie and shadow only allow travel between places in a single sphere (they also fractured), you can use the shadow plane to walk from waterdeep to anauroch but not to greyhawk.
In fact, in 3e you can use the plane of Shadow to travel the whole multiverse. So, technically, you can travel from Waterdeep to Greyhawk using the plane of Shadow. Just, the time it would took you maybe would be unthinkably long, than just going to a place in your same universe/sphere. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 22:47:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Can anyone point me in a direction for information regarding what the Orc World that was responsible for the Orcgate Wars was like?
NOPE - its NEVER been detailed. It hasn't even been named. That's why I just steal the Warcraft lore in that regard. Its actually quite good - armies of demons invading planet after planet using those portals. They enslaved the orcs and used them to come over. I would play it the same way for FR, but spin as the Orc Gods, instead of demons (Orc... Orcus... NAH) 
Are you thinking about re-purposing something for this?
The only thing we know is that those orcs were gray, rather than the typical green, and somewhat smarter (more 'civilized', perhaps).
Gray orcs... Gray Elves... I got nuthin'.
*AS an aside, the worlds of Warcraft really should be considered within the boundaries of the D&Dverse, since official D&D products were published converting the Diablo material, and Warcraft itself was written-up for 3e (OGL). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 22:55:52 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 22:52:08
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| As for the Orc World... dunno. There is no mention of that in Old Empires or Lost Empires, that are the books that talks about this world (that I have). So... I guess, you're free to design it whatever you want. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:29:39
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| Are the only mentions of it in the Empires books? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Are you thinking about re-purposing something for this?
Yes, yes I am thinking about it...but it would be at the ass end of an already long list of "projects" I've sworn I was going to do.
Unless inspiration hit me...then it might move to the front. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:03:50
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Lets just put it this way:
The Sumerian Gods came to the Forgotten Realms...and the Orcgate Wars resulted in MOST of them being killed.
It just so happens that the Sumerian word for Mountain is "Kur"
The Sumerian word for Netherworld is "Kurnugi"
The Sumerian word for Lock is "Sikkuru"
The Sumerian word for Mountainhead (or who beside the mountainhead abides) is "Imkurgar"
The Sumerian word for Enemy is "Lukur"...a combination of Lu and Kur...LU having the meaning of "an action/way" in words such as KALU (confine), NAPALU (destroy), BELU (extinguish), KALU (hold), and etc. The main enemy of Sumerians were usually raiders from the mountains. The Mulan/Sumerians main enemies may have been from a world that they had to "Lock" to prevent their foes from invading them.
All these words share the element of "Kur"...and with one small twist I get "Urk" from it.
To me, I think the Orcgate led to a world the Sumerians considered a mountainous "hell" filled with demons...or in our case Orcs.
I could make one sweet world out of the World of "Imkurgar" where Gruumsh the One-Eyed had his way and the Orcs rule supreme.
EDIT: forgot the big one: LU also means "Man" (but not mankind) so it wouldn't be hard to see that LUKUR is "The enemy of Man"
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 06 Jan 2018 00:28:13 |
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Other Worlds of the Forgotten Realms
