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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  15:58:44  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So we know that the Forgotten Realms has Portals/Gates/"Ways" to and from other worlds. I don't mean the planets of Realmspace though; but only worlds "removed" immediately from the Forgotten Realms.

Many of these worlds have greatly impacted the Forgotten Realms. The world that the Orcgate Wars were fueled by is one that immediately comes to mind...

So what about projects that create entire new worlds that can be visited by Portals from the Forgotten Realms? Has anyone considered creating a world that can be visited from the Realms?

I'm not talking about whole-cloth creation...but something based from Forgotten Realms canon that can be used as the foundation.

I have a few ideas, but I thought I would ask others what their ideas are too.

Aside from the Orc World that fueled the Orcgate Wars (which I think would be interesting to create all on its own) I thought about creating "old worlds" like Tintageer (I think Snowblood posted a map a while back), what world did the Mulan REALLY come from (was it Earth...or simply Earthlike...and what is that world like NOW), on and on and on...

What do you guys think would be a cool world to explore/create that is directly related to the Forgotten Realms via canon?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 03 Jan 2018 16:34:42

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2468 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  18:57:44  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC, Tintageer was placed in Fearie in 3e (the Feywild in 4e).

Aside from the Orc World and the "Mulan" world (that potentially is D&D Earth, a world Elminster have visited in canon), there is obviously Abeir, that is Toril "shadow twin world". And the Saurial world (that some assume may be Abeir).

There is also perhaps the world from were dwarves came from (if they came from another world, that is).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jan 2018 19:00:05
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
968 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  19:38:17  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And of course, as part of the multiverse, El has visited with wizards from pretty much all the other 2E settings.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  19:47:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

And the Saurial world (that some assume may be Abeir).

There is also perhaps the world from were dwarves came from (if they came from another world, that is).



The saurials had gods in their homeworld, which rules out Abeir.

Spelljammer lore speaks of a long-lost dwarven homeworld, though it's a legendary thing and may not have actually existed. I once wrote a history explaining how the dwarven homeworld fell and they scattered to the multiverse, but it's not even approaching being based on anything canonical -- I was mainly looking to explain how the dwarves were previously unable to use magic and then suddenly could.

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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  19:59:53  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

And the Saurial world (that some assume may be Abeir).

There is also perhaps the world from were dwarves came from (if they came from another world, that is).



The saurials had gods in their homeworld, which rules out Abeir.





Well, primordials could be worshipped as gods, as demonstrated by Akadi, Kossuth, Istishia, and Grumbar.

It might not be a huge stretch for a campaign to make it Abeir if the primordials there have a hand in shaping the belief systems of the races.






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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 03 Jan 2018 20:02:16
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  21:35:54  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know of any worlds not mentioned so far? Other than Aebir, Tintageer and so on...

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  21:56:15  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think of the old forgotten realms concept as basically a variation on the many worlds theory; there are a million-million Torils - one of them is Earth another is what we call the realms, another is Faerie. Each of them is different yet the same. They overlap and coincide. It seems obvious to me that Mystara/Hollow world is another (look at the world maps to see) :P

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 03 Jan 2018 21:58:54
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  22:02:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

And the Saurial world (that some assume may be Abeir).

There is also perhaps the world from were dwarves came from (if they came from another world, that is).



The saurials had gods in their homeworld, which rules out Abeir.





Well, primordials could be worshipped as gods, as demonstrated by Akadi, Kossuth, Istishia, and Grumbar.

It might not be a huge stretch for a campaign to make it Abeir if the primordials there have a hand in shaping the belief systems of the races.


You could go that way, but then you have to explain how mortals could directly travel back and forth between Abeir and Toril, *and* scry upon Abeir, despite Ao setting the worlds out of phase with each other... And how Moander was able to work a spell on Abeir temporarily blocking that planar travel... And if mortals could so readily transit between the worlds, why the primordials didn't send agents back into the world they'd been banished from...

Given that the Realms has always had connections to other worlds - heck, there's even someone from Nehwon in the Realms! - it's much easier to assume that the saurial homeworld is not Abeir. Otherwise, you've got another lore mess on your hands to straighten out.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  00:37:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would not be hard to believe however that there was traffic between the Saurial world and Abeir-Toril prior to the split, and that the majority of those Saurials went to Abeir (except for instance the ones in Malatra). If the Sarrukh and those Saurials came from the same world, that could also make sense. After all, we don't definitely know where the Sarrukh came from. We do know that they appeared first in the Okoth area roughly...... hmmm, which is very near those orcgate portals....

In fact, what if the orcgate portal was a portal setup by someone like Ubtao/Qotal (or one of his brothers Zaltec, Tezca, Plutoq, etc, or his father Kukul) to bring the Sauroid race into Abeir-Toril from the Saurial Homeworld. Then later, someone like Merrshaulk establishes another portal and brings some through down in the area around Chult. Maybe even the Lacerials over in Malatra was another such.

Then, advance the timeline of that world by 34,000 years, and the area where that portal was is discovered by some very religious orcs on the Sauroid world, and they reopen it. I mean, I could very much see orcs, sarrukh, and saurials all sharing a "dinosaur" world. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the original Aeaeree (who may have been a kind of feathered reptile) didn't come from the same place.

c. –35000 DR
Rise of the Sarrukh Empires (sauroid creator race).
— The sarrukh establish the realm of Okoth, south of modern-day Mulhorand.
Within a hundred years, most of Faerūn is theirs.
c. –34800 DR
The sarrukh establish the realm of Mhairshaulk [–33500], on the Chultan Peninsula westward from the Lhairghal to the Jungles of Chult. The Mhairshaulkans are believed to have created nagas, pterafolk, troglodytes, and yuan-ti, as well as numerous other races long since lost.
c. –34500 DR
The sarrukh establish the realm of Isstosseffifil, based in present-day Anauroch.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  00:49:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, regarding the Saurials, one of our fellow scribes (I forget who) created a DMs Guild entry called Saurials of the Lost Vale. In it, it makes some of the same assumptions I do about the Saurials and Sarrukh somehow being "involved" with one another (and he gives alternate and inconclusive versions, since the truth doesn't matter much). But basically he has Sarrukh and Saurials involved on the Saurial homeworld. It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  04:39:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, regarding the Saurials, one of our fellow scribes (I forget who) created a DMs Guild entry called Saurials of the Lost Vale. In it, it makes some of the same assumptions I do about the Saurials and Sarrukh somehow being "involved" with one another (and he gives alternate and inconclusive versions, since the truth doesn't matter much). But basically he has Sarrukh and Saurials involved on the Saurial homeworld. It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse.



I think it's logical to assume there's a connection betwixt the saurials and the sarrukh.

I just don't see that it's logical to assume the saurial homeworld is Abeir, especially when there is information indicating it isn't.

There's also the fact we knew of the saurials being from another planet long before anyone decided that Abeir and Toril were separate worlds.

And another thing I just recalled: when Morala scried on the saurial homeworld, she saw Elminster being attacked by flying creatures... There was no mention at all of the sky -- which means it was your standard-issue blue sky, not the Steelsky.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  05:17:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*meh* - I've explained all that away dozens of times before.

Never trust people who smell like baking cookies.

There's a great list of canon D&D 'settings' on Wikipedia.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Does anyone know of any worlds not mentioned so far? Other than Aebir, Tintageer and so on...
Threnody... the world Kiaransalle came from (except I've started to spin Threnody as a country/continent on Abeir LOL).

There are canon gates to Greyhawk and Krynn (I know one to Krynn is in Anauroch), Elminster went to Eberron in the VG, and we've had a Newhon Ghoul in Faerūn (although it may have come over on a Spelljammer, and not through any sort of portal/gate). Of course, I am sure you meant 'worlds that have no established lore'. There was some stuff in the old The North box that pertained to Empyrea, but that was on some unnamed continent to the east of the Flanaess, and we've already covered GH (although from what I understand, the original designer is trying to republish it as a stand-alone setting). Lastly, the original Oriental Adventures book from 1e had a tiny section on Kara-Tur, and in that it proclaimed the people of K-T (the Shou) had come from 'the Red Earth', whatever that means. I've always interpreted it to mean they are interlopers as well. 'Shou Lung' literally translates to "followers of the dragon', and it was a celestial Dragon that lead them to their new homeland (I think the great-grandfather of the one that narrates the 2e K-T box).

There is also the world Jakandor island is on (a tiny sub-setting from 2e), although there is no canonical connection to FR, as well as the Dragon's Blood Islands, which is just a small part of a larger world never detailed from the Council of Wyrms box. Oh! I almost forgot - and whatever world the Night Below is set on. However, I've found several places where FR's underdark is called that in canon, and I've also managed to find the perfect spot to squeeze that small region into in The North (directly east of Highstar lake). Thus, I make the assumption that was always ON Toril anyway.

As for the Orcgates, we know where that leads to. We know that because one just like it appeared on Azeroth (WoW). The orc homeworld is Draenor, and it was overrun with demons millennia ago. Of course, now I'm well outside D&D canon, but an Orcgate is an Orcgate is an Orcgate.

Oh, and lastly - and this is 'reaching' - there was a planned crossover with Elric of Milnibonea and Fafrhd & the Gray Mouser, and since those two individuals came from Newhon, and we have us a Newhon ghoul (and the Melnibonea mythos appeared in the 1st print run of DD), the world of The Young Kingdoms should be reachable from D&D worlds as well (Fafrhd & the Gray Mouser also crossed-over with Wonder Woman... but not I'm REALLY out in left field). Once we start getting into comics I can prove EVERY setting is connected to every other.

Of course, you were probably just looking for settings that were named and then never mentioned again.

If you count the fact that FR has multiple connections to RL, than all those domains of dread had worlds they came from... I think only one or two are actually named.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 05:21:31
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  05:27:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And reading that list I just linked above, I realized I forgot all about Nerath! (Nentir Vale setting)

And that world has a map already (and although we got a plethora of lore about it in 4e, most of it pertained to Nentir Vale, and most of the rest of the world remains undetailed).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  13:03:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, regarding the Saurials, one of our fellow scribes (I forget who) created a DMs Guild entry called Saurials of the Lost Vale. In it, it makes some of the same assumptions I do about the Saurials and Sarrukh somehow being "involved" with one another (and he gives alternate and inconclusive versions, since the truth doesn't matter much). But basically he has Sarrukh and Saurials involved on the Saurial homeworld. It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse.



I think it's logical to assume there's a connection betwixt the saurials and the sarrukh.

I just don't see that it's logical to assume the saurial homeworld is Abeir, especially when there is information indicating it isn't.

There's also the fact we knew of the saurials being from another planet long before anyone decided that Abeir and Toril were separate worlds.

And another thing I just recalled: when Morala scried on the saurial homeworld, she saw Elminster being attacked by flying creatures... There was no mention at all of the sky -- which means it was your standard-issue blue sky, not the Steelsky.



Reread what I wrote Wooly in the entry above it. I was stating that for all we know the Sarrukh and Saurials were originally from another world (their Homeworld) and brought here by Primordials or gods (which Ubtao makes sense there with his link to dinosaurs, as does the World Serpent, and possibly even Moander now that I think on it if some of them fled that world because he was rotting all the vegetation in an area).... THEN the twinning of the worlds happened 4 thousand years later. This lets us put saurials on Abeir in large quantities.

EDIT: and now I realize why you responded as you did. I left out the ending. I should have written "It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir-Toril to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse."

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Jan 2018 13:07:40
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  13:37:29  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On parallel worlds, there's a weird moment at the end of the original Neverwinter Nights game, where you meet someone called Asheera, a parallel-universe double of the elf paladin Aribeth, an NPC in the game. Asheera is a knight of the Shining Order from a city called Sahaladar, on the same quest as the PC to defeat the sarrukh Morag. It's tempting to that into one of the existing otherworlds, such as Abeir.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  14:15:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, regarding the Saurials, one of our fellow scribes (I forget who) created a DMs Guild entry called Saurials of the Lost Vale. In it, it makes some of the same assumptions I do about the Saurials and Sarrukh somehow being "involved" with one another (and he gives alternate and inconclusive versions, since the truth doesn't matter much). But basically he has Sarrukh and Saurials involved on the Saurial homeworld. It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse.



I think it's logical to assume there's a connection betwixt the saurials and the sarrukh.

I just don't see that it's logical to assume the saurial homeworld is Abeir, especially when there is information indicating it isn't.

There's also the fact we knew of the saurials being from another planet long before anyone decided that Abeir and Toril were separate worlds.

And another thing I just recalled: when Morala scried on the saurial homeworld, she saw Elminster being attacked by flying creatures... There was no mention at all of the sky -- which means it was your standard-issue blue sky, not the Steelsky.



Reread what I wrote Wooly in the entry above it. I was stating that for all we know the Sarrukh and Saurials were originally from another world (their Homeworld) and brought here by Primordials or gods (which Ubtao makes sense there with his link to dinosaurs, as does the World Serpent, and possibly even Moander now that I think on it if some of them fled that world because he was rotting all the vegetation in an area).... THEN the twinning of the worlds happened 4 thousand years later. This lets us put saurials on Abeir in large quantities.

EDIT: and now I realize why you responded as you did. I left out the ending. I should have written "It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir-Toril to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse."




There's still the issue that the lore about saurials indicates they did not come from Abeir.

That's my objection: Not only does the lore indicate they did not come from Abeir, the existence of that lore means that if you say they came from Abeir, you have to provide explanations for the issues I've already raised. If you have the saurials come from some unspecified world that isn't Toril or Abeir (as was clearly intended by the saurials' creators, since the Abeir retcon came more than a decade later), then you don't need any special explanation.

On top of all that, I don't see why there is any benefit at all to changing their backstory. Having them come from Abeir creates problems, but how does it improve anything?

So the options are: the saurials are from Abeir, which requires contortions and handwaving to reconcile with prior lore, or you stick with the known information, and assume they're from someplace else entirely.

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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  16:16:05  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Demiplane of Dread, aka Ravenloft comes to mind
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  17:18:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade

Demiplane of Dread, aka Ravenloft comes to mind



I personally wonder about Strahd's homeworld... After all, Barovia was the first of the domains of Ravenloft -- but it had to be somewhere else before it became the heart of Ravenloft.

For that matter, what was the nature of the Demiplane of Dread before Barovia was there? Were there prior domains that were displaced/replaced by Barovia? Did the Demiplane even exist before Strahd's murder of Sergei? Do the Dark Powers predate Ravenloft, or were they part of its creation, or were they brought to Ravenloft afterward? Heck, was Barovia lifted from its world, or is it a copy of the original?

So much that we don't know, without even delving into the nature of the Dark Powers...

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Jan 2018 17:19:11
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  19:03:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your main argument, Wooly, appears to be, "They were never said to have come from a world that didn't exist at the time".

However, the world did exist at the time, we just didn't know about (nor did the authors writing about the Saurials).

I still insist the existence of the Lacerials in Malatra means the 'known' lore about the Saurials is inaccurate, or at best, incomplete.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Reread what I wrote Wooly in the entry above it. I was stating that for all we know the Sarrukh and Saurials were originally from another world (their Homeworld) and brought here by Primordials or gods (which Ubtao makes sense there with his link to dinosaurs, as does the World Serpent, and possibly even Moander now that I think on it if some of them fled that world because he was rotting all the vegetation in an area).... THEN the twinning of the worlds happened 4 thousand years later. This lets us put saurials on Abeir in large quantities.

EDIT: and now I realize why you responded as you did. I left out the ending. I should have written "It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir-Toril to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse."
I simplify everything with my fantasy-panspermia theories.

The Sauroids (which included BOTH the saurials and the sarrukh) were a Creator Race, and the Creator races pre-existed the current universe (or rather, the universe as it is in its current form, which means pre-Gods War, and perhaps even pre-Dawn War). We see the evidence right in our very own GHotR - we have entries for them before Abeir is even created.

THAT world was Abeir-Toril, and THAT world no longer exists. There's really no arguing with that fact - its right there in B&W (and we had an entire edition that rubbed our faces in it). There are NO 'ifs' here - the sarrukh DID come from another world - a world that no longer exists. So did the Batrachi, the Aeriee, the Fey, and the proto-humans. We also know that a more ancient (planer) version of dwarves, dragons, and giants existed in those primordial times. None of that is theory - its all in the lore (a good chunk of it in the 4e lore).

The only real difference between the way I spin my stuff and the canon is that the canon lore says that the first world was 'split in twain' (two), whereas I say just the major 'base of operation' was split in two, and that ALL D&D worlds are pieces of that one, shattered, 'First World'. I harken back to an article written by Gary Gygax himself (under a pseudonym), in issue #1 of Dragon, that all D&D worlds are just 'reflections of some long-forgotten first world'.

We need to reinterpret our known FR canon into the greater, D&D canon now, a lot of which was written (and over-written) in 4e. No-one talks about Saurials from being from Abeir back when folks were writing about Saurials because we did not know about Abeir... but it still existed, retroactively. Since Sarrukh pre-existed the creation of Abeir, it makes sense that some 'branch' of the sauroid race may exist there.

And if we add-in what BadCatMan just said about that 'alternate worlds' character, and say that was from Abeir, then it makes even more sense. HOWEVER, if you DON'T want to say that character was from Abeir, well now, you just walked right into my trap (que Admiral Akbar).

Because if someone from some other world other than Toril or Abeir knows about and hates Sarrukh, that just lends a LOT of credence to my theory about the 'Shattered First World' - that bits and pieces of the Five Creator Races (and the Gods themselves, AND the Builder Races) wound up spread all throughout the D&Dverse... which would indicate the first sundering was a lot more than we've been led to believe...

But it could have easily been a two-stage thing - worlds were formed out of the shattered Prime Material, Abeir-Toril included, which was meant to be a 'homebase world' for 'The Gods' (primordials and Estelar), but the two could not get along, and that piece of the first world was purposely split by Ao even further. Considering we have lore that says Realmspace is the biggest crystal Sphere (although SJ lore, I think, later over-wrote that), that indicates to me that Abeir Toril and its surrounding Crystal Sphere was not just a major part of the first World, is was a central piece - perhaps even The Heart.

The Forgotten Realms has a special interconnectivity to the rest of the Planer structure (which 3e tried to sadly nerf) - its was a built-in major plot-point that Ed created right from the beginning. He had a plan for all that - it wasn't an accident, and he has even said that the Spellplague (and all its 'cosmic gooiness') was based on stuff he had incorporated into the 'deep lore'). The planet is riddled with craters! I'm still finding them! The primordials were always there, and Faerūn was always some sort of special 'planer nexus' on the Prime Material. I don't feel so much like a guy who writes 'fanfic' (homebrew), but rather, as an archaeologists sifting through the old stuff and finding the deeper truths buried therein. I may not always be right - RW archaelogists (and historians, sociologists, etc) aren't either - they are just piecing together whatever 'stray bits' they come across and try to build the most accurate model of what they think may have happened. But 99% of the time my stuff is based on my research, and me seeing certain patterns in the lore (and the maps), not just fabricated willy-nilly.


Heck, I don't even like primordials and 'Elder Evils' (Far Realms type stuff) in my realms, but I just got to accept there was a LOT there that we just never noticed before. And there is no 'Dwarven homeworld', nor is there an 'Elven homeworld', etc., despite what legends (and SJ) says - those are all Crystal Spheres that formed after the Dawn War, and ALL races started out on a world that no longer exists. Halflings have the right of it - they've never claimed a homeworld; they KNOW they are just 'cosmic nomads', wanderers of the many worlds that exist now. Other races are unwilling to accept that - they can't tolerate the belief that their 'Gods' got it all wrong and destroyed paradise.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 19:08:54
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  19:22:38  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Question: "Abeir-Toril" is "Toril", correct? "Abeir" was created out of nothing, but "Toril" remained the same, sans certain elements that were sent to "Abeir".

-That's how I remember it, but I don't know if anything has been further explained (and a lot of explanation was needed).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  19:41:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I know, the world was split in two. Not a straight split - stuff was taken from all over the place, and two new worlds were formed in its place. Toril is NOT Abeir-Toril. Toril is what was left after Abeir was scooped out of Abeir-Toril.

Basically, we're 'leftovers'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  19:58:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Your main argument, Wooly, appears to be, "They were never said to have come from a world that didn't exist at the time".

However, the world did exist at the time, we just didn't know about (nor did the authors writing about the Saurials).



I base my argument more on the fact that the saurials had gods, and Abeir does not. Honestly, I think that fact right there is more than enough.

However, further arguments are the fact that for worlds separated by Ao, it apparently wasn't a big deal to move between them, or scry from one to the other, and the fact that when the saurial homeworld was scried on, there was no mention at all about the sky being anything other than standard issue.

Truly, I do not understand why the insistence that the saurials had to come from Abeir, when we know they could be from any of a countless list of worlds.

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Bakra
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  19:59:50  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Starshade

Demiplane of Dread, aka Ravenloft comes to mind



I personally wonder about Strahd's homeworld... After all, Barovia was the first of the domains of Ravenloft -- but it had to be somewhere else before it became the heart of Ravenloft.

For that matter, what was the nature of the Demiplane of Dread before Barovia was there? Were there prior domains that were displaced/replaced by Barovia? Did the Demiplane even exist before Strahd's murder of Sergei? Do the Dark Powers predate Ravenloft, or were they part of its creation, or were they brought to Ravenloft afterward? Heck, was Barovia lifted from its world, or is it a copy of the original?

So much that we don't know, without even delving into the nature of the Dark Powers...



There is a Ravenloft adventure which takes the players to Strahd original home plan. I believe it was part of a trilogy of modules back in 2nd edition.

As for Saurials there was no direct portal from the Realms to their homeworld. Dragonbait was caught hunting demons in the Abyss then ended up in Toril. Elminster was transported to their world which means it wasn't Abeir. Because when Abier was separated by Ao no normal mortal magic could take a person to it. (And no I can't quote the source on that one)

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
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love to all,
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  20:11:25  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

From what I know, the world was split in two. Not a straight split - stuff was taken from all over the place, and two new worlds were formed in its place. Toril is NOT Abeir-Toril. Toril is what was left after Abeir was scooped out of Abeir-Toril.

Basically, we're 'leftovers'.


-So, what the hell happened in that there are pre-"split" cultures and histories that so seamlessly went on? I remember AGHotR I think it was having an entry where the Sarrukh recorded a changing of the stars, which was supposed to denote the retcon of making "Abeir" its own thing and inserting it into the history books. I mean, I guess when you're talking about the omnipotent Overgod doing whatever it wants, the old world can end and a new one begin in the blink of an eye without anybody realizing it, but...yeeahhh...

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  21:16:31  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In Toril? They were wiped out. Batrachi went extinct as a civilization within a year, the Aaerae following in the next thousand of years. Sarrukh just flee to other planes, and the fey went to the Feywild (Faerie, or whatever). The ape-like humanity of the time survived because reasons (because the designers of the game are humans, so humans must succeed in anything, even if that doesn't make sense from an storywise viewpoint)..

As per Bruce Cordell's novels, all the aboleths and such that lived in Abeir-Toril were transposed to Abeir (Stardeep novel). It seems they thrived there, at least for a time (as per the Abolethic Sovereignty novels). Some humans ended there too.

Dragons and giants, and other humanoids were the new masters of those worlds (though for Abeir it took a rebellion to kill/maim/seal the remaining primordials... at least the gods could survive in Toril as semi-rulers).

That's the canon, at least.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jan 2018 21:19:58
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  23:35:13  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade

Demiplane of Dread, aka Ravenloft comes to mind



The comments on Ravenloft got me thinking and I realize I cannot prove Strahd was from Greyhawk... though I'm almost certain of it.

I know for a fact the second dark lord (and numerous others that followed) were, but beyond that I can't make a case...

troublesome
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  00:39:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, I think what we had there on Toril was a world-spanning cataclysm that didn't quite wipe out everyone and everything, but pretty damn close to it. Even subsea and Underdark races would have been affected, that's how broad a scope the devastation was. It made Krynn's cataclysm look like a Sunday picnic. Speaking of the Underdark - I also recall some lore about how the creation of Abeir led to the creation of the Underdark on Toirl, since Ao had to steal tons of material from somewhere (however, that may have been retconed out, since gods - especially gods of Overpower stature that can command the Elemental Lords - don't really need to 'find' anything).

Cultures more toward the center of the continent (or flyers, but magic may have also 'run amok') would have fared better than coastal groups, so that could explain some of it. There's always something that survives.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 00:41:39
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  00:41:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for Strahd - I've also seen evidence linking Ravenloft to Mystara. Now, Mystara had a piece of Blackmoor, as did Greyhawk, but Blackmoor was its own setting first, so borrowing from our metagaming knowledge, Blackmoor should have been a culture on the First World, - the protohuman culture. And bits and pieces of Blackmoor (and its legends) have been found on hundreds of worlds. It left quite legacy. Thus Ravenloft may have been in Blackmoor, during that Realms early (pre-technology) period, and was somehow 'saved'. Memories of RL are thus part of the local tales on both Mystara and Oerth. The Isle of Dread is yet another piece of real estate they have in common. But with RL firmly in the Shadowfell, its fairly easy to say the IoD went to the Feywild - a LOT of those early settlements and important locales wound up 'floating' in various transitive planes (Astral, Ethereal, Feywild, and shadowfell), and a few may have even wound up in the Elemental planes. I am sure Gods (Dark Powers?) were involved in all that 'saving', which is also how some of the Creator Races managed to survive through the cataclysm.

In my homebrew mythos, Gaea quickly moved over the dead body of Ymir (the Prime Material) and merged her essence with his, thus enabling life to continue despite the shattered nature of the Prime Material. All life should have been extinguished when it was just living on flying chunks of rock and other stuff, but the merging of the two Supernals allowed the other Gods enough time to coalesce the fragmented matter into Crystal Spheres. They are even still doing this to this day (I didn't think so, but I read a scene in a novel recently where Lathander was telling Chauntea he had just come from watching 'The Birth of a World' (Crystal Sphere). It was actually a kind of creepy scene - Lathander was a 'young man' and chauntea was an 'old lady', and he was putting the moves on her pretty hard. I didn't read any further after that.

ANYWAY... it was only because Gaea represent 'life itself' that anything was able to survive when it shouldn't have - we might even picture all of them being put in a magical 'suspended animation', until worlds were ready for their incorporation (and the people's memories may have even been adjusted to not know about the past - they would have just thought their gods created them whole-cloth on those worlds). thats how I explained how so much survived, anyhow. Thus, Strahd and ravenloft may have been an 'echo' stored from the past (the past even from the perspective of the Gods war) that wound up in the Shadowfell. In fact, if we look at the D&Dverse as some sort of massive computer, everything that 'has gone before' should be stored somewhere. We now human minds (intellect) gets stored in the astral when someone dies, so perhaps something like that occurs on a larger scale for cultures and important places/events. The Shadowfell and the Feywild could be just two of such 'external storage drives' - thats why time doesn't behave right in regards to them (stuff from all different time-periods gets stored there).

So perhaps Ravenoft is just an old 'folder' someone hasn't bothered to delete yet.

And all of this made me think of that portal in the SoFS on that island, or rather, the whole interior of the island is a portal. The descripion makes one think it takes you back to Toril's 'stoneage', but Toril never really had a stoneage. It gets even weirder in that it describes prehistoric elves! So maybe that portal goes to Abeir-Toril - that would make a lot of sense. It takes you to a world that no longer exists. For allw e kow, maybe thats where the saurials are/were from - they're a relic - they come from the past.

EDIT:
I think I may have just figured out that Strahd was the very first vampire.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 00:44:09
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  00:48:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What if each God (or rather, group of gods) have their own 'external hard drive' where they save the stuff they like? this differs from my old theory that each Crystal Sphere had one (this greatly reduces the number, and actually makes more sense by involving deities). So if a world/setting/Crystal sphere 'dies', the storage place still exists, and those 'gods' become just an echo of what they were... like the Dark Powers. They are really just memories of gods.

The Feywild may just be the Seldarine's storage area.

This makes me think now that Abeir is more like a transitive plane than just a world, or another Crystal Sphere. Now I'm back to thinking of it as "Ao's Shed". Is it possible that Nerath IS Abeir? (or rather, a part of Abeir - its not a world map). Sticking the Nentir Vale on Abeir would make the conversion I was doing SO much easier.

And if its a plane, like the Shadowfell and the Feywild, then 'size doesn't matter'. Its unlimited. We can shove as much as we want in there.

I think I just turned D&D's planer structure into a cellphone plan.

"Just sign-up for the family plan and you get unlimited storage and downloads" - Asmodeus, the infernal saleman

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 00:55:08
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:10:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, regarding the Saurials, one of our fellow scribes (I forget who) created a DMs Guild entry called Saurials of the Lost Vale. In it, it makes some of the same assumptions I do about the Saurials and Sarrukh somehow being "involved" with one another (and he gives alternate and inconclusive versions, since the truth doesn't matter much). But basically he has Sarrukh and Saurials involved on the Saurial homeworld. It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse.



I think it's logical to assume there's a connection betwixt the saurials and the sarrukh.

I just don't see that it's logical to assume the saurial homeworld is Abeir, especially when there is information indicating it isn't.

There's also the fact we knew of the saurials being from another planet long before anyone decided that Abeir and Toril were separate worlds.

And another thing I just recalled: when Morala scried on the saurial homeworld, she saw Elminster being attacked by flying creatures... There was no mention at all of the sky -- which means it was your standard-issue blue sky, not the Steelsky.



Reread what I wrote Wooly in the entry above it. I was stating that for all we know the Sarrukh and Saurials were originally from another world (their Homeworld) and brought here by Primordials or gods (which Ubtao makes sense there with his link to dinosaurs, as does the World Serpent, and possibly even Moander now that I think on it if some of them fled that world because he was rotting all the vegetation in an area).... THEN the twinning of the worlds happened 4 thousand years later. This lets us put saurials on Abeir in large quantities.

EDIT: and now I realize why you responded as you did. I left out the ending. I should have written "It makes an assumption that the Sarrukh travelled from Abeir-Toril to that world, but it very well could have been the reverse."




There's still the issue that the lore about saurials indicates they did not come from Abeir.

That's my objection: Not only does the lore indicate they did not come from Abeir, the existence of that lore means that if you say they came from Abeir, you have to provide explanations for the issues I've already raised. If you have the saurials come from some unspecified world that isn't Toril or Abeir (as was clearly intended by the saurials' creators, since the Abeir retcon came more than a decade later), then you don't need any special explanation.

On top of all that, I don't see why there is any benefit at all to changing their backstory. Having them come from Abeir creates problems, but how does it improve anything?

So the options are: the saurials are from Abeir, which requires contortions and handwaving to reconcile with prior lore, or you stick with the known information, and assume they're from someplace else entirely.



Yeah, that's what I'm saying... they could easily have come from their Homeworld TO Abeir-Toril... later Abeir-Toril splits and all the Saurials (or most) end up on Abeir.... but hell, some are in Malatra, and for all we know Osse or Katashaka is loaded down with them. My main goal would be to have Abeir full of the things, and that's the easiest way to do it.

It was the DM's Guild author of Saurials of the Lost Vale that assumed things went the other direction (that the Sarrukh had to arise on Abeir-Toril, and either they went to the Saurial home world and created Saurials, or some other suppositions). Personally, I'd just rather they all (Sarrukh and Saurials) came from that world, and the Sarrukh learned about magic on Toril. Then thousands of years later Moander brings over a new load of them. That being said, I hadn't really put a lot of thought to it until I really started wanting to figure out what neighbors existed on Abeir, and the DM's Guild authors explanation seemed fine at the time... its only now that I realized it could be better the other way.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 05 Jan 2018 :  01:19:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Question: "Abeir-Toril" is "Toril", correct? "Abeir" was created out of nothing, but "Toril" remained the same, sans certain elements that were sent to "Abeir".

-That's how I remember it, but I don't know if anything has been further explained (and a lot of explanation was needed).



In 1e through 3.5e, Abeir-Toril was the Forgotten Realms.

4e gave us an explanation that the Forgotten Realms was Toril and it had a "twin" of it that was created long ago in -31000 DR (an event hinted at in GHotR which came out just before 4e). The twin was named Abeir.

Thus, the world PRIOR to the twinning via this conjecture was Abeir-Toril. Now, I'd imagine many people continued to call "Toril" by the name "Abeir-Toril" after this twinning... and I'd imagine similar happened on Abeir. Thus, the confusion. Or at least, that's the easiest way to explain the sudden retcon.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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