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Realms Voyager
Acolyte
6 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 01:45:35
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In the Faith and Pantheons sourcebook it says that none of the elemental gods (Akadi , Grumbar , Istishia and Kossuth) were present in avatar form during the Time of Troubles but the Serpent Kingdom sourcebook says that a firenewt became Kossuth's avatar during the Time of Troubles (and was rewarded afterward by Kossuth making the firenewt a death knight). If Kossuth's avatar was in Faerun during the Time of Troubles then it is to be expected that the same would be true of the other three elemental gods. It's fun to imagine what each god's avatar would be. My choices would include (respecting gender so Akadi would have a female avatar and Grumbar and Istishia would have male avatars ,I'm not a fan of gender bending gods , also , to me , Corellon Larethian is MALE):
Grumbar could choose a galeb duhr or a pech as his avatar
Akadi could have a sylph or a female aarakocra as her avatar
Istishia could have an aquatic elf (after all the leader of the Istishian faith is a 12 year old aquatic elf) or a triton (since they are supposed to be native to the Elemental Plane of Water) or really any of the aquatic races present in Myth Nantar (like say a shalarin although I would exclude the morkoth)
All of the avatars should be in out of the way places to explain why they were initially thought not to be present during the ToT.
This condition was met by Kossuth's avatar since it was a firenewt in far off Chult.
Grumbar's avatar could have been present in the Underdark or in the Muaraghal Mountains (since I think I remember that he had a temple in those mountains).
Istishia's avatar could have been present in Myth Nantar or in Istishis's temple city in , I think , the Trackless Sea.
Akadi's avatar could be a sylph or a female aarakocra in the Star Mounts or the Lost Peaks (both places are within the High Forest).
All of these options seem good to me and they are all easy for the greater Realms to be unaware of since they are both geographically remote and of races not commonly encountered in the (surface) Realms.
I look forward to any comments or alternate suggestions.
Wizards of the Coast has made another great mistake in not publishing novels. I love many novels and could list a large number of them as excellent. I hope that they come to their senses and restart publishing novels. I'd love to read such a series of 4 novels (one for each elemental god).
Kind greetings to all !!
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 02:10:44
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I had troubles thinking of better or more appropriate examples than the ones you came up with. The only thing I could think of to make an alteration would be to use some less anthropomorphic characters such as a pegasus for Akadi, or an intelligent whale is Seros for Ishy (I remember them being pretty important in the Seros novels).
Grumbar I'd throw into a stone giant. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 12:27:07
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I like the idea that Grumbar was in the underdark, and therefore a pech would seem to make the perfect role in my mind. However, Grumbar's strongest center of worship that I've seen was not in Faerun. It was with the geomancers down in the lands that became Nog and Kadar in Zakhara. The greatest and most powerful geomancer was Tisan, and she retreated to Tadabbur her fortress when the geomancers fell. She was then entrapped in her fortress by spells. That might also make for a suitably remote place. Of course, this would break your gender bending.
Here's her basic info from Ruined Kingdoms.
Tisan Balshareska, Ninth of Nine, Ruler of the Supreme Council, Arch-Geomancer, Sunderer of Dreams, She Who Turns the Wheel of Fate. Dual-Classed, 15th-level human female priest (outland), 20th-level wizard (ajami).
Similarly, Istishia might be down in the Great Sea area where she was known long ago to have had a cult.
Akadi being air, she could be anywhere. Maybe occupying a Zakharan roc somewhere (note Zakharan rocs are bigger than northern rocs). They were known to be bigger than dragons (Zakharan great rocs being 120 feet long and having 270 foot wingspans).
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Zakharan_roc
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 19:31:46
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Maybe a compromise? I like the stone Giant idea for Grumbar*, but I also like the underdark angle - how about it being one of the Stone giants that follows the Dodkong in Cairnheim? Of course, that would instantly make him an enemy of the Dodkong himself (he doesn't like competition).
Personally, though, I prefer keeping the elemental Lords OUT of Faerūn for the ToT, and just say that firenewt was Empowered by something else, that just claimed to be Kossuth. We have enough wonkiness with the 4e lore conerning the primordials without adding to it by retroactively creating new inconsistencies.
*Elemental lords don't have 'sexes' - since they are about as alien as you can get, they probably pull their appearance (when they manifest in a physical form) out of the minds of the people they are appearing in front of, so they will look precisely how they are expected to look (so human preconceptions win the day, here). Grumbar doesn't appear with a giant stone... dingaling... unless he has some VERY odd followers.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 21:17:11
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| -If the Elemental Lords were forced into avatar form (given as Mark alluded to that they're not technically divine powers anymore, so that opens up weirdness), I'd say that Akadi was in the East. The Time of Troubles happened in 1358, and the Tuigan Horde conquered most of the Hordelands shortly thereafter. Akadi, as Teylas, empowered Yamun Khahan in some fashion and basically give him the push he wanted/needed to march. While Akadi/Teylas didn't necessarily have to be there a few years earlier, during the ToT, for that to happen, it's a major event and the timeline lines up. Quaraband, his capital city, also had a dead magic zone that appeared during the ToT, so there's another possible link. |
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Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 00:28:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe a compromise? I like the stone Giant idea for Grumbar*, but I also like the underdark angle - how about it being one of the Stone giants that follows the Dodkong in Cairnheim? Of course, that would instantly make him an enemy of the Dodkong himself (he doesn't like competition).
Personally, though, I prefer keeping the elemental Lords OUT of Faerūn for the ToT, and just say that firenewt was Empowered by something else, that just claimed to be Kossuth. We have enough wonkiness with the 4e lore conerning the primordials without adding to it by retroactively creating new inconsistencies.
*Elemental lords don't have 'sexes' - since they are about as alien as you can get, they probably pull their appearance (when they manifest in a physical form) out of the minds of the people they are appearing in front of, so they will look precisely how they are expected to look (so human preconceptions win the day, here). Grumbar doesn't appear with a giant stone... dingaling... unless he has some VERY odd followers.
yes, he does... his followers specifically notes he's always got a hard on.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 02:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Personally, though, I prefer keeping the elemental Lords OUT of Faerūn for the ToT, and just say that firenewt was Empowered by something else, that just claimed to be Kossuth. We have enough wonkiness with the 4e lore conerning the primordials without adding to it by retroactively creating new inconsistencies.
The primordials are as bound to the tablets of fate and to Ao's decrees as the gods, as per the Sundering's novels background. Ao still overpowers them all. So, I don't see an inconsistency there.
I also think that the elemental lords should be left out, but because they guys were intelligent enough to not get involved in the gods' stupidity.
As for the salamander guy, Kossuth could have empower him without being affected by Ao's punishment. Just happen to be that the he upgraded him just at the same time as the ToT took place.
Or, the salamander claimed that, but it was a farse or an attempt to please his god, or whatever. And later Kossuth ascended him for some reason (perhaps, because it increased his followers or something along the lines). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Dec 2017 02:30:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 04:18:55
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Well, I'm just thinking in terms of what primordials were around on Toril before the Spellplague, and if they had Avatars walking around during the ToT, that would be 99% a definitive answer, and it might interfere with things being spun differently (I am still of a mind to follow 4e's original premise - that there were NO primordials anywhere on Toril - they were ALL on Abeir, and other beings were just posing as them).
Plus, the earlier god-book said they weren't part of the ToT, which agrees with 4e's premise, so I feel its easier to fudge the SK lore than it is to retcon both the earlier work and 4e (although at this point, 4e has been pretty-much retconed anyway). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2017 04:19:40 |
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lsls
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 05:31:10
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Hi great scribes
There was a question confused me for a long time.
Did Ao cast down Kara-Tur and Maztica Pantheon from the heavens during the ToT?
If yes, any official products mentioned? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 06:22:04
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Not in any official document. There was a piece of 'fan work' here at the keep somewhere that discussed this (regarding just the K-T pantheon, IIRC).
My thoughts here is that is was only the Faerūnian pantheon, but I believe we do have some canon that the Mulan pantheon(s) were similarly affected. The only way to rectify that would be to say that the gods of the Old Empires have been slowly merging into the Faerūnian pantheon for quite some time, and several deities are found in both, so that Ao felt it was best to just consider them all one and the same for the purposes of the ToT. None of the other pantheons were involved in the theft, so I don't see why they would have been punished, but you never know. Overgods are weird like that.
On the other hand, there are a couple of northern deities in the Zakharan lands, and the demihuman and humanoid pantheons were affected (and they're multispheric), so I'm probably completely wrong in my thinking (and that any and all gods from Toril must have been forced to participate). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 06:28:11
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I'll be dipped if I can recall where the reference is, but I recall reading that the Celestial Bureaucracy were cast down with everyone else, retreated to a mountaintop, and spent the ToT in meditation.
I seem to recall it being noted that this was a rumor, and was not confirmed. |
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lsls
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 07:14:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not in any official document. There was a piece of 'fan work' here at the keep somewhere that discussed this (regarding just the K-T pantheon, IIRC).
My thoughts here is that is was only the Faerunian pantheon, but I believe we do have some canon that the Mulan pantheon(s) were similarly affected. The only way to rectify that would be to say that the gods of the Old Empires have been slowly merging into the Faerunian pantheon for quite some time, and several deities are found in both, so that Ao felt it was best to just consider them all one and the same for the purposes of the ToT. None of the other pantheons were involved in the theft, so I don't see why they would have been punished, but you never know. Overgods are weird like that.
On the other hand, there are a couple of northern deities in the Zakharan lands, and the demihuman and humanoid pantheons were affected (and they're multispheric), so I'm probably completely wrong in my thinking (and that any and all gods from Toril must have been forced to participate).
I agree with you Markustay
My personal opinion is only those gods who were active in Faerun continent(so include demihuman and humanoid pantheons) had been cast down by AO. |
Edited by - lsls on 10 Dec 2017 07:22:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 12:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by lsls
Hi great scribes
There was a question confused me for a long time.
Did Ao cast down Kara-Tur and Maztica Pantheon from the heavens during the ToT?
If yes, any official products mentioned?
Kara-Tur... yes... there was a mention in some product that the celestial bureaucracy all gathered in some mountains and meditated or something like that. I could have sworn that reference was in old empires though, and I can't find it any longer.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 12:39:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll be dipped if I can recall where the reference is, but I recall reading that the Celestial Bureaucracy were cast down with everyone else, retreated to a mountaintop, and spent the ToT in meditation.
I seem to recall it being noted that this was a rumor, and was not confirmed.
Lol, ok, that's two of us... that's exactly what I recall. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 16:27:45
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On the other hand, I don't think it would make sense if Ao did.
However, we KNOW he did it to the non-human pantheons, which makes even less sense, and if he did it as well to the Elemental lords - beings of such magnitude they have power in EVER Crystal Sphere (thanks to 4e lore borrowing FR and applying it across the board... which is just terrible in their case) - then I suppose Ao is just an all-power jerkwad who punishes everyone, regardless of who was guilty or not (which is why I find that so disagreeable - he certainly didn't come off that way in the novels).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll be dipped if I can recall where the reference is, but I recall reading that the Celestial Bureaucracy were cast down with everyone else, retreated to a mountaintop, and spent the ToT in meditation.
I seem to recall it being noted that this was a rumor, and was not confirmed.
Lol, ok, that's two of us... that's exactly what I recall.
I'm pretty sure its homebrew, but very old homebrew kept here at the 'Keep.
Kara-Tur Shaking Events
IF it did appear in a canonical source, my best guess would be Forgotten Realms Adventures - A book dedicated to many of the changes wrought in FR immediately following the ToT. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2017 16:31:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 17:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the other hand, I don't think it would make sense if Ao did.
However, we KNOW he did it to the non-human pantheons, which makes even less sense, and if he did it as well to the Elemental lords - beings of such magnitude they have power in EVER Crystal Sphere (thanks to 4e lore borrowing FR and applying it across the board... which is just terrible in their case) - then I suppose Ao is just an all-power jerkwad who punishes everyone, regardless of who was guilty or not (which is why I find that so disagreeable - he certainly didn't come off that way in the novels).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll be dipped if I can recall where the reference is, but I recall reading that the Celestial Bureaucracy were cast down with everyone else, retreated to a mountaintop, and spent the ToT in meditation.
I seem to recall it being noted that this was a rumor, and was not confirmed.
Lol, ok, that's two of us... that's exactly what I recall.
I'm pretty sure its homebrew, but very old homebrew kept here at the 'Keep.
Kara-Tur Shaking Events
IF it did appear in a canonical source, my best guess would be Forgotten Realms Adventures - A book dedicated to many of the changes wrought in FR immediately following the ToT.
Think of it more like this. The below is from Faiths and Avatars. Basically, prior to the ToT, anyone could come into realmspace and become a deity. They could then split themselves into different entities if they chose. Basically, god had a lot of leeway. Maybe the ToT was just an excuse for Ao to "boot the gods out so he could upgrade security controls". Maybe he couldn't institute these "controls" on deities while they were still active.
Now, that being said, the "gods" of Maztica didn't come to Toril that we know of. A few years later though Qotal/Ubtao DID come to Maztica as did Zaltec (in 1362). Of course, we've been wondering if the Maztican deities are in fact primordials, so the fact that just puts another spin on how much control Ao actually has over primordials.
Long before the Time of Troubles, Ao evidently created some of the
powers of the Realms, as well as the crystal sphere of Realmspace. However, he left the Realms powers to change and evolve for millennia untold before deciding that he needed to readjust the balance of the Realms and set in motion the events of the Time of Troubles.
During those millennia, the powers split themselves, gave birth, killed each other, raised sufficiently powerful mortals to godhood, and welcomed wave upon wave of emigrant powers, brought by waves of mortal emigration from other spheres, into their ranks. They were unchecked in their proliferation and self-destruction. Only after the Time of Troubles did Ao take an active part in the generation of new powers, the resurrection of dead Realms powers, and permission or denial of the emigration of multispheric powers into the Realms
After the Time of Troubles, in order for a candidate for divinity to attain godhood, Ao must give his consent. He does this either formally in a presentation ceremony carried out beyond the eyes of mortals or informally by allowing a being to become a deity in the Realms. Usually a mortal attempts to become a deity through the accumulation of power, the use of arcane rituals, the use of artifacts, the sponsorship of an already-established power, or some combination of these. At some point in the process, Ao makes a decision. If that decision is no, the candidate does not become a deity.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 17:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, we KNOW he did it to the non-human pantheons, which makes even less sense, and if he did it as well to the Elemental lords - beings of such magnitude they have power in EVER Crystal Sphere (thanks to 4e lore borrowing FR and applying it across the board... which is just terrible in their case) - then I suppose Ao is just an all-power jerkwad who punishes everyone, regardless of who was guilty or not (which is why I find that so disagreeable - he certainly didn't come off that way in the novels).
-That's why I don't think it would make sense that Ao wouldn't. Ao's main point of contention was that the gods of Realmspace were basically ignoring their followers and were more interested in "godly drama" than anything else. He didn't cast down just the gods that were doing that. He cast down the gods that were doing that, the gods that weren't doing that, demihuman deities, Archfey (more specifically the regular gods reclassified as such in 4e), possibly Elemental Lords, everybody. It wouldn't make sense that the gods and goddesses of Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara would get glossed over. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 18:20:42
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I'm just not seeing it, but I don't want to argue about a much-hated RSE from an edition that's now 4 editions back (3 by the end of it). We have much newer RSE's to bitch & complain about.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That referenced homebrew is well after the ToT.
Not the very first part (paragraph).
Although, I agree I recall 'more to the story', which is why I am now leaning toward you guys on this - it must have been an off-hand, throw-away mention in some other source. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 22:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, we KNOW he did it to the non-human pantheons, which makes even less sense, and if he did it as well to the Elemental lords - beings of such magnitude they have power in EVER Crystal Sphere (thanks to 4e lore borrowing FR and applying it across the board... which is just terrible in their case) - then I suppose Ao is just an all-power jerkwad who punishes everyone, regardless of who was guilty or not (which is why I find that so disagreeable - he certainly didn't come off that way in the novels).
-That's why I don't think it would make sense that Ao wouldn't. Ao's main point of contention was that the gods of Realmspace were basically ignoring their followers and were more interested in "godly drama" than anything else. He didn't cast down just the gods that were doing that. He cast down the gods that were doing that, the gods that weren't doing that, demihuman deities, Archfey (more specifically the regular gods reclassified as such in 4e), possibly Elemental Lords, everybody. It wouldn't make sense that the gods and goddesses of Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara would get glossed over.
I think his reasoning for casting everyone down was to make sure they all learned the same lesson, and also to keep there from being an imbalance between those cast down and those not cast down. If deity A was mostly powerless and stuck as an avatar, but deity B remained fully powered and in the heavens, it would take much time at all for deity A to lose their portfolios and power to deity B. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 18:09:01
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| Ao left Helm as he was because he was true to his portfolio. That could have happened to any number of other gods including elemental ones. As they were not interested in gods plays or mortals in the first place I think it could be easily the explanation. For me they are primordials and werent forced down like lesser gods but they could go as Shar and Selune did (and possibly Kossuth). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 19:14:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Ao left Helm as he was because he was true to his portfolio.
I think it was more because he needed someone to make sure the gods stayed put. Considering that multiple deities tried to go back without the Tablets, this was a good move on Ao's part. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 19:31:34
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Yes, I agree, and would also assume Helm was given a choice - stay empowered and keep the deities from reentering (which of course would make him no-one's friend when the whole thing was over), or chose to go with them (and remain on good terms with all those other gods). Had he chosen to become mortal Ao would have likely given the choice to another god; he may not even have been the first to be made the offer. His sense of duty forced him to become the 'brown-noser' of the gods, and probably why Tyr had no problem attacking him at the tail-end of 3e (his closest allies were no longer his 'besties' after the Avatar Crisis).
Its kind of like when one of your friends becomes a cop... and no longer gets invited to parties (I had that happen to a friend of ours growing up. We used to 'party' with the guy all the time, but once he went into the police academy, no-one had anything to do with him). Post-ToT, Helm walks into a room (Cynosure), and the room suddenly gets very quiet, and others start leaving. In other words, he's the jerk that's going to tell your parents you had alcohol at the party... and maybe remind the teacher they forgot to assign homework. He's THAT GUY. He's the one god I wish they hadn't brought back (well, him and Tyr... they're both redundant with Torm).
As for the other deities, I think what Ao did there was a form of 'institutionalized justice'. The military uses it. Some schools do (mostly private academies), and guards use it in jails. Basically, one person (or a small group) does something wrong, and they punish EVERYONE (in the military, everyone assigned to the same barracks). Then when the lights go out that night, a certain someone gets a blanket thrown over their head and they get their arse beat-down.
I think part of what Ao was hoping would happen is that all the other gods would turn on 'the Dark Three' and do his job for him, because they ALL got punished for their actions. And I guess it worked out that way, too... but probably not how he hoped. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2017 19:32:29 |
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Thojan Ralwens
Acolyte
Belgium
30 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 19:46:01
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What follows is my humble opinion, as I am not knowledgeable in pre-third editions.
All the gods of every pantheons (should) have been casted down. Ao did it to all, as he (pretended he) didn't know who stole the tablets. The avatars appeared in the realms they had influence. Primordials or long forgotten/asleep gods could have wandered in remote area, not impacting Faerūn, or not . I can imagine Dendar (a primordial) still stuck underneath Chult (well, actually, behind the portal, in the Fugue Plan), not even noticing the ToT. Some deities could have been seclusive, hiding (out of fear or wisdom) and/or peaceful, like that idea about the Celestial Bureaucracy.
Helm didn't receive a treatment of favor (the only favored one was Torm ^^). He was set as guardian and problably was cut off his realms too (but kept his power). In other pantheons, another guardian could likewise have been set on watch-duty for whoever found the tablets. It doesn't seem like a nice job to do.
In the Avatar Trilogy it seems to me that they were cast down, not forced to take on human/sentient form. Ao did say "you will take an avatar" IIRC, but Mystra nonetheless enpowered an object, right ? My point is, they could have wandered in gaz form, or hidden in objects, if they were not concerned or unwilling to take part in the great-hunt-for-the-tablets-and-be-favored-by-AO-dad.
As for the original topic, I can easily imagine the elemental gods afar from civilization. Istishia as a whale gets my vote. Akadi as a wind, high in the ozone layer, and Grumbar stuck as a boulder in the Underdark. Kossuth could have been swimming in the molten lava of the Peaks of Flame, and realized he could control one of the local creatures passing by: Chassan. Or he was directly casted down on the local Fire Temple, because he is said to be more involved in mortal affairs than the other three (Thayans and fire mages are used to pray him, but maybe only after the ToT ?). Sleyvas wrote about Grumbar worship in Zakhara, that could be similar.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigleythey could go as Shar and Selune did
I don't recall that part. From which book is it ?
Edit: Two replies while I'm writing. I am too slow !  |
Edited by - Thojan Ralwens on 11 Dec 2017 19:48:52 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 20:01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll be dipped if I can recall where the reference is, but I recall reading that the Celestial Bureaucracy were cast down with everyone else, retreated to a mountaintop, and spent the ToT in meditation.
I seem to recall it being noted that this was a rumor, and was not confirmed.
Lol, ok, that's two of us... that's exactly what I recall.
I'm quite positive it was in a novel. And I have no idea which one. It has been too long. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you dont want to move to the new Realms, that doesnt mean theres anything wrong with either you or the old Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches wont fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Realms Voyager
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 04:09:39
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Hi Markustay , you said that the elemental gods are "as alien as you can get". I agree that they are nonhuman gods (I refuse to accept the 4th edition nonsense about primordials) but if we're talking about alien gods my vote for the most alien gods would go to such beings as:
1) Piscaethces the Blood Queen (the aboleth deity that "travels the currents of probability between infinite realities, spreading her seed almost as an afterthought as she moves from one world to another.")
2) Ghaunadaur also known as That Which Lurks
3) the illithid god Ilsensine
4) the beholder goddess called the Great mother and her divine progeny Gzemnid (whom she tries to devour and he hides from her)
5) the now dead god Moander
6) Mak Thuum Ngatha the god (or at least some extremely powerful Far Realm entity) worshipped by tsochar , psurlons and nilshai. Does anyone know if this god actually grants divine spells to its worshippers ? If it doesn't then I would not really classify it as a god.
Kind regards
Realms Voyager
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 07:10:29
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Well, I was looking at it from the perspective of 5e and them being 'Primordials' - primal beings of unimaginable power who have never been mortal, nor bother with mortals (very much - its seems in FR they are a tad more 'approachable' that in just about any other setting). They don't procreate, they don't have 'feelings' - they are literally the sentience of an elemental plane, which makes them 1/4 the sum of everything in the Prime Material.
The rest are just... gods. Sure, they're weird gods, but they have god-like agendas, have mortal worshipers, yadda yadda yadda...
One man's 'holy being' is another man's hamburger. Even the Far Realmsian entities are fathomable, after a fashion - they have specific goals (most of them). So do the Elder evils. But what does a being who basically represents 'rock' think? Or 'air'? They are cosmic concepts given consciousness. They have no conception of 'living things', which is why they have such a hard time interacting with followers; we are as alien to them as they are too us. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2017 07:11:21 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 10:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Thojan Ralwens
What follows is my humble opinion, as I am not knowledgeable in pre-third editions.
All the gods of every pantheons (should) have been casted down. Ao did it to all, as he (pretended he) didn't know who stole the tablets. The avatars appeared in the realms they had influence. Primordials or long forgotten/asleep gods could have wandered in remote area, not impacting Faerūn, or not . I can imagine Dendar (a primordial) still stuck underneath Chult (well, actually, behind the portal, in the Fugue Plan), not even noticing the ToT. Some deities could have been seclusive, hiding (out of fear or wisdom) and/or peaceful, like that idea about the Celestial Bureaucracy.
Helm didn't receive a treatment of favor (the only favored one was Torm ^^). He was set as guardian and problably was cut off his realms too (but kept his power). In other pantheons, another guardian could likewise have been set on watch-duty for whoever found the tablets. It doesn't seem like a nice job to do.
In the Avatar Trilogy it seems to me that they were cast down, not forced to take on human/sentient form. Ao did say "you will take an avatar" IIRC, but Mystra nonetheless enpowered an object, right ? My point is, they could have wandered in gaz form, or hidden in objects, if they were not concerned or unwilling to take part in the great-hunt-for-the-tablets-and-be-favored-by-AO-dad.
As for the original topic, I can easily imagine the elemental gods afar from civilization. Istishia as a whale gets my vote. Akadi as a wind, high in the ozone layer, and Grumbar stuck as a boulder in the Underdark. Kossuth could have been swimming in the molten lava of the Peaks of Flame, and realized he could control one of the local creatures passing by: Chassan. Or he was directly casted down on the local Fire Temple, because he is said to be more involved in mortal affairs than the other three (Thayans and fire mages are used to pray him, but maybe only after the ToT ?). Sleyvas wrote about Grumbar worship in Zakhara, that could be similar.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigleythey could go as Shar and Selune did
I don't recall that part. From which book is it ?
Edit: Two replies while I'm writing. I am too slow !
I haven't found the part about Selune now but Shar is known to kill Ibranduil, god of caverns during ToT. Noninclusion of primordials in ToT is my musing not based on canon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 15:38:37
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| It was in the comic books. Selūne was already hanging out in Waterdeep, posing as an innkeeper named Luna. She was rather surprised when the Time of Troubles started, because Selūne then dropped out of the sky and took up residence at her temple. Innkeeper-Selūne went to investigate and briefly fell under Temple-Selūne's control. It was later revealed that Temple-Selūne was actually Shar, posing as Selūne and trying to drive the real one crazy. The real Selūne got her wits back and Shar fled. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 15:46:44
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One of the things I always did with the TOT was limit it to exclusively Toril deities. The elemental gods all cross into ALL the other worlds and therefore are only under Ao's power within the Realms, and that is a fragment of his power.
Otherwise you get scenarios like, is Asmodeus a god worshiped in the Realms (yes depending on which editions rules you use)? Was he then bound to an avatar? Any of the other gods of the abyss and hells? Would that not create a universe shattering upheaval in the power structures of the hells?
Far simpler to have only the gods that are Toril specific involved. |
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Avatars of Elemental gods during Time of Troubles
