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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 16:47:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
One of the things I always did with the TOT was limit it to exclusively Toril deities. The elemental gods all cross into ALL the other worlds and therefore are only under Ao's power within the Realms, and that is a fragment of his power.
Otherwise you get scenarios like, is Asmodeus a god worshiped in the Realms (yes depending on which editions rules you use)? Was he then bound to an avatar? Any of the other gods of the abyss and hells? Would that not create a universe shattering upheaval in the power structures of the hells?
Far simpler to have only the gods that are Toril specific involved.
Except for the fact that we know multispheric racial deities were affected... And limiting it to just Torilian deities still gives a boost to anyone who has even a toehold elsewhere, because then they could grant spells and clerical abilities without issue whilst the locals couldn't.
Even among the Faerūnian pantheon, there are plenty of deities from outside the Realms.
Also, limiting it to Torilian deities means that Ao ignores other deities doing something he forces his own deities to do, in the area where he reigns supreme. It also implies a lack of power over any deity that isn't purely local, and we know that's also not the case.
With entities that are beyond mortal and who are literally capable of existing in multiple places at once, I don't see why it's such an issue to have them limited and constrained in one area but not another.
Look at it this way: just because you're from country A and can do things X, Y, and Z without restraint in that country, doesn't automatically mean that you can go to country B and do the same things without restraint. Marshal of the Armies in Hypothetica is not even a peon in Fictitia's armed forces. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 18:24:34
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I think that some multispheric deities with essentially no contact on Toril but a presence in Realmspace were just shut off from their followers, rather than forced to manifest as an avatar. The only two I can think of that this would apply to offhand would be Ptah and Greyhawk's Celestian, though, who have access to Realmspace but not Toril. I would also apply this to near-divine entities like the non-divine abyssal lords (whereas Baphomet, Sess'inek, Yeenoghu, etc. would have been forced into avatar form) and archomentals. I do think the four elemental powers would have been forced into avatar form, however.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 19:19:38
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At this point I don't really care what the canon is, because as MaskedMage just pointed out, the canon makes ZERO sense, IMO.
Here is how I handle it (not that its ever going to come up in any game I run, but just so I have it in the back of my mind in case something it later affected DOES come up) - ONLY Torillian-specific powers were affected*. All others were deprived from granting spells. This is a rather easy way to spin things, because we KNOW 99.9% of the gods (probably including the Primordials - I just reminded myself of an old theory I had come up with to explain how they were doing that) used the Weave as a spell-delivery system, and when that was no longer functioning properly (because Mystra 'fell' and her Chosen were propping it up), they couldn't deliver spells. And those few who weren't using or didn't need the Weave to do so (Corellon jumps to mind), they were simply DENIED (by Ao) the ability to do so.
Two caveats - first, we have evidence of elven (and I think other) multispheric deities appearing in the realms, as well as Kossuth. There could have been several things going on there; as in the case of Shar/Selūne, another god could have been posing as the god in question. Another scenario could be as I've stated elsewhere in regards to the Elemental Lords - the beings answering prayers and interacting with their churches are NOT who their followers think they are - they are either a sphere-specific power acting on behalf of the god (note I say 'god', and not 'deity' - they are ALL 'gods'), or a fragment of the god that it has separated from itself - possibly by merging it with a devout mortal worshiper (similar to the Manifestations/Incarnations going on in the Old Empires, but stronger - what I've dubbed an 'Ubertar'). Even if it is one of these 'god pieces', it is now self-aware and independent, sphere-specific, and mostly autonomous. On many worlds, these have completely diverged from the originals, and many don't even carry the same name anymore (gods split, or merge, etc.). Thus, a Torillian-specific Aspect that its own individual thing.
*And secondly, gods that made appearances, and then later became multispheric. There's really only one I can think of (five if I count the Elemental Lords, but thats more of a 'its always been that way' sort of thing) - Bane. For this I fall back on another concept borrowed (and refitted) from earlier editions - the Archtype. Archtypes are 'since the beginning' type concepts, that respawn over and over again on nearly all worlds. The archtypes have names, but the sphere-specific version does not always have the same name. What happens with these is (sort of) the reverse of what happens in the case of most multispheric gods: They started-out as gods before the world was split (either localized 'Sundering', or cosmic, planer 'shattering - take your pick), and then later became sphere-specific. Thus, they were multispheric FIRST, because there were no Crystal Spheres back then. All the Gods mentioned in the 4e material in regards to the Dawn and Gods Wars qualify as Archtypes, which works perfectly in regards to Corellon, and probably the rest of the Seldarine (and Moradin, etc). For example, both Chauntea and Yondalla - who 4e lore says is the same being - are pieces of the Hearth-Goddess Archtype. In fact, they are probably two separate pieces of the same archtype, which fixes a few things, come to think of it. Gruumsh and Talos are another example - Talos may have come-about when another aspect of Gruumsh came over during the Orcgate Wars, and rather than merge with its Torillian aspect, it merged with Garagos instead, forming Talos (and Garagos may have been another {'human'} aspect of the 'Gruumsh archtype' anyway). Then when the spellplague hits, Grunmsh senior (the one who was always Gruumsh) takes advantage of the chaos and absorbs the Talos aspect.
Bane was a mortal of Toril. We know this (as was Myrkul - a prince of Murghōm - and Bhaal) from our own FR canon. Buuuuut... 4e lore went and said he was multispheric, and what makes matters far worse, that he was around 'at the beginning'. This is why 'The Bane' (of Existence?) is an Archtype, and our, local Bane is one of these 'spawned' Banes that arise on worlds. As I've said before, these don't always take the name of the archtype, but in the case of ours, he did. On Oerth (GH), he took the name Hextor. On some worlds, the mortal who arose to the position of god of Tyranny may have even been female (and for what its worth, someone needs to do that somewhere - I find females much more tyrannical then men, at times LOL). For that matter, why not a male aspect of a hearth God(dess) and child-rearing?
The Archtypes would be the estelar, and -at least in the case of the four Elemental Lords - some primordials may also have become archtypes. Those four don't even really have names - they are literally Earth, Air, Fire, & Water. While the names Torillians use - Grumbar, Akadi, Kossuth, & Istishia may have spread outward from Realmspace through Panspheria, they are just that - monikers mortals have attached to them. Nothing more. Using my theory that these local versions arise from their followers, we can easilly see how a Primordial can 'grant spells', because its not really the same being as the Archtype - its slightly different because of the merging, and now has a human soul (the thing I feel is required to create the Divine Conduit necessary to absorb worship-juice {Elan} and grant spells in return). Those ones form 'The Beginning' are the true Archtypes, and cannot grant spells. They are cosmic concept made incarnate.
So yeah, they could have all been 'cast down to Toril', because it wasn't them. Not really. It was Toril's version of them. This is how we can have Planescape Lore overlap world-specifc lore. That dude in Arvandor in the Great Wheel? Thats THE Corellon. The one that hangs-out in Toril's World tree? Thats Faerūn Corellon. This also helps explain a LOT of the weirdness that went on during 4e where they combined gods, like Sune and Hanali - that was just two aspects of the 'Aphrodite Archtype' that joined together when the poop hit the fan. As for Asmodeus - fortunately he wasn't around during the pre-3e years (as a 'god'), but he would most certainly qualify as an archtype at this point. or, perhaps, he himself is a truly ancient (and secret) aspect of something greater - either set, or Ahriman (and set is really just an aspect of Ahriman himself, come to think of it - they are all pieces of the 'world serpent'). He is what VG's call 'a special' - he may be the only case where an avatar of an Archtype combined with a Celestial, rather than a mortal (so he still didn't have a soul, but he had an insane amount of power). Hmmmm... actually... I'll go to another thread for that one...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2017 18:13:06 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2017 : 01:45:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
One of the things I always did with the TOT was limit it to exclusively Toril deities. The elemental gods all cross into ALL the other worlds and therefore are only under Ao's power within the Realms, and that is a fragment of his power.
Otherwise you get scenarios like, is Asmodeus a god worshiped in the Realms (yes depending on which editions rules you use)? Was he then bound to an avatar? Any of the other gods of the abyss and hells? Would that not create a universe shattering upheaval in the power structures of the hells?
Far simpler to have only the gods that are Toril specific involved.
Except for the fact that we know multispheric racial deities were affected... And limiting it to just Torilian deities still gives a boost to anyone who has even a toehold elsewhere, because then they could grant spells and clerical abilities without issue whilst the locals couldn't.
Even among the Faerūnian pantheon, there are plenty of deities from outside the Realms.
Also, limiting it to Torilian deities means that Ao ignores other deities doing something he forces his own deities to do, in the area where he reigns supreme. It also implies a lack of power over any deity that isn't purely local, and we know that's also not the case.
With entities that are beyond mortal and who are literally capable of existing in multiple places at once, I don't see why it's such an issue to have them limited and constrained in one area but not another.
Look at it this way: just because you're from country A and can do things X, Y, and Z without restraint in that country, doesn't automatically mean that you can go to country B and do the same things without restraint. Marshal of the Armies in Hypothetica is not even a peon in Fictitia's armed forces.
Yeah, I know that in published lore they were effected - my point was this was nonsensical. Unless every god in all the planes were also cast down to Toril (equally nonsensical) the balance would be upset by this in all the other spheres and their over-gods would probably have a thing or two to say about this. To follow your example, assuming all the Seldarine were cast down, what would there be to stop some random god from another world who they oppose from wreaking havoc and destruction in Arvandor - possibly even permanently destroying or stealing all the souls already there. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2017 : 02:04:01
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But we know that the Labelas Enoreth that was stuck as an avatar in the Realms is the same as the Labelas Enoreth that is part of the multispheric elven pantheon. It wasn't a local Labelas as opposed to a planar Labelas -- we know they were the same one.
Again, I say to just go with the country analogy. Azoun IV was top dog, able to command anyone in Cormyr -- but when he visited Waterdeep, he had no official rank there and was subject to Waterdhavian laws. This didn't affect his status in Cormyr, and he could use War Wizards to see his will carried out in Cormyr whilst he was away -- but he was still obligated to follow the laws of Waterdeep as dictated by its Lords. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2017 : 06:42:24
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We already know deities can split apart and rejoin in a multitude of ways. The Mesopotamian and Egyptian pantheons sent independent shards of themselves to Realmspace in the distant past. The only real difference between that time and the Time of Troubles was that one was voluntary and the other wasn't, and the overall power levels of the manifestations were much more limited in the later event.
It's an incorrect assumption that a deity cast down in the Realms must be cast down in its entirety, rather than just a portion of it. Think of multispheric deities as tesseracts, and each sphere they have access to is one of the "cubes." Ao just cast down the cube that corresponds to Realmspace.
Jeff
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2017 : 13:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
We already know deities can split apart and rejoin in a multitude of ways. The Mesopotamian and Egyptian pantheons sent independent shards of themselves to Realmspace in the distant past. The only real difference between that time and the Time of Troubles was that one was voluntary and the other wasn't, and the overall power levels of the manifestations were much more limited in the later event.
It's an incorrect assumption that a deity cast down in the Realms must be cast down in its entirety, rather than just a portion of it. Think of multispheric deities as tesseracts, and each sphere they have access to is one of the "cubes." Ao just cast down the cube that corresponds to Realmspace.
Jeff
Jeff
Yep, and I like your idea also of Ao possibly offering deities of some pantheons the option to just lose all access altogether for that time. Taking that a little further, one of the assumptions I am playing with is that the Maztican gods are indeed Primordials, but Primordials physically still in Abeir.... and somehow when they "went to sleep" on Abeir, it allowed them... through their own dreams... to act as gods in Toril. This would mean that the short time that Zaltec came to Toril in the 1360's was a special instance, and possibly even then he wasn't really here, but rather his mind was animating the totem that represented him (it was a giant walking stone totem).
Ubtao/Qotal is a Primordial who has been in Toril and awake, who possibly was put to sleep during the spellplague.... and in his dreaming for the past century he's been fighting Dendar the Night Serpent, eater of nightmares. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2017 : 18:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
We already know deities can split apart and rejoin in a multitude of ways. The Mesopotamian and Egyptian pantheons sent independent shards of themselves to Realmspace in the distant past. The only real difference between that time and the Time of Troubles was that one was voluntary and the other wasn't, and the overall power levels of the manifestations were much more limited in the later event.
It's an incorrect assumption that a deity cast down in the Realms must be cast down in its entirety, rather than just a portion of it. Think of multispheric deities as tesseracts, and each sphere they have access to is one of the "cubes." Ao just cast down the cube that corresponds to Realmspace.
Jeff
Precisely what I said, except with a helluva lot less word-count.
I need an editor.
Tiamat isn't on Toril, just as she isn't on Krynn. On Krynn, they call an aspect of her Takhisis, and on Toril they just happen to use 'Tiamat', the same as the Archtype. On the other hand, we call Bahamut Marduk in the Realms (most of the time), because of the Mulan Pantheon(s). All just aspects of some great big globs of energy floating off in the astral somewhere (I believe their 'bodies' are their Realms, and even the 'god' you meet within the realm is just a generated aspect). In fact, you could even say that THAT aspect is 'the heart' of the god, thus why you can kill them there and nowhere else (usually).
Or, to put it another way, gods are all playing at a great 'masquerade'. None of them look like mortals - that would be ridiculous. 'Newbs' (gods only recently ascended - ie., deities) may prefer to still appear the way they used to, but its not necessary. Their godly Realms, the way they manifest, etc, etc, - its all part of a charade; a 'show' they are putting on to convince stupid mortals to follow them. You're much more likely to devote yourself to a kindly looking, bearded, old man (or scantily clad 'hotty'), then you would be to a huge, unfathomable ball of energy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2017 18:54:04 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 02:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
We already know deities can split apart and rejoin in a multitude of ways. The Mesopotamian and Egyptian pantheons sent independent shards of themselves to Realmspace in the distant past. The only real difference between that time and the Time of Troubles was that one was voluntary and the other wasn't, and the overall power levels of the manifestations were much more limited in the later event.
It's an incorrect assumption that a deity cast down in the Realms must be cast down in its entirety, rather than just a portion of it. Think of multispheric deities as tesseracts, and each sphere they have access to is one of the "cubes." Ao just cast down the cube that corresponds to Realmspace.
Jeff
Jeff
Got to say I love that this place is nerdy enough that you felt including a multidimensional geometric metaphor would be a simple way to clarify things. Classic.  |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 02:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
We already know deities can split apart and rejoin in a multitude of ways. The Mesopotamian and Egyptian pantheons sent independent shards of themselves to Realmspace in the distant past. The only real difference between that time and the Time of Troubles was that one was voluntary and the other wasn't, and the overall power levels of the manifestations were much more limited in the later event.
It's an incorrect assumption that a deity cast down in the Realms must be cast down in its entirety, rather than just a portion of it. Think of multispheric deities as tesseracts, and each sphere they have access to is one of the "cubes." Ao just cast down the cube that corresponds to Realmspace.
Jeff
Precisely what I said, except with a helluva lot less word-count.
I need an editor.
Tiamat isn't on Toril, just as she isn't on Krynn. On Krynn, they call an aspect of her Takhisis, and on Toril they just happen to use 'Tiamat', the same as the Archtype. On the other hand, we call Bahamut Marduk in the Realms (most of the time), because of the Mulan Pantheon(s). All just aspects of some great big globs of energy floating off in the astral somewhere (I believe their 'bodies' are their Realms, and even the 'god' you meet within the realm is just a generated aspect). In fact, you could even say that THAT aspect is 'the heart' of the god, thus why you can kill them there and nowhere else (usually).
Or, to put it another way, gods are all playing at a great 'masquerade'. None of them look like mortals - that would be ridiculous. 'Newbs' (gods only recently ascended - ie., deities) may prefer to still appear the way they used to, but its not necessary. Their godly Realms, the way they manifest, etc, etc, - its all part of a charade; a 'show' they are putting on to convince stupid mortals to follow them. You're much more likely to devote yourself to a kindly looking, bearded, old man (or scantily clad 'hotty'), then you would be to a huge, unfathomable ball of energy.
I don't think the Krynn gods line up with the other gods that seems similar like that... I'm pretty sure somewhere it actually says that they are distinct from each other. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 04:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I don't think the Krynn gods line up with the other gods that seems similar like that... I'm pretty sure somewhere it actually says that they are distinct from each other.
Planescape describes the situation roughly as "observers will notice these deities are VERY similar, but the truth is a mystery." It explicitly makes the situation unknown, leaving it up to individual Dungeon Masters.
That said, I believe the creators of Dragonlance have said they're separate entities.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 05:58:11
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| There was also some slight interaction with Fizban in one of the novels with Finder Wyvernspur as a god where he sends a kender as Krynn's eyes and hands (and talkative mouth) to interact with the gods of the other sphere; this would be odd if he had his own Toril based aspect. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 06:50:11
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Some aspects don't even realize they are aspects
Most 'evil gods' wouldn't want to accept it, either. Then again, neither would most good ones. No-one wants to believe they were just someone else's 'big toe' all along. The trick to making my personal view of things work is to remember that each one is autonomous. They can even work together when they are somewhat different aspects, like Hanali and Sune, or Chauntea and Yondalla.
Did you see Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End? Its like when all the slightly different Jack Sparrows were manning the ship. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 13:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There was also some slight interaction with Fizban in one of the novels with Finder Wyvernspur as a god where he sends a kender as Krynn's eyes and hands (and talkative mouth) to interact with the gods of the other sphere; this would be odd if he had his own Toril based aspect.
Unless of course Bahamut was limited in his ability to interact with Toril for a while... which it was somewhat implied in some of the late 3e stuff where it was coming that Bahamut and Tiamat "were returning" (it should be noted, that Tiamat started returning around 1346 DR). Almost like their returning, the ToT, and the Spellplague were somehow interlinked. This may also have had something to do with Bahamut giving Gareth and company the "Tree-Gem" to plant in Damara ironically during the year right after the Time of Troubles, which is ALSO when they killed Tiamat AND also when Gilgeam is killed by Tiamat and a little later Gilgeam kills Tiamat and dies himself.... then Tiamat resurges via Tchazzar.... Its like Tiamat was pushing and pushing and pushing to get back into the world and kept getting slapped down. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 16:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There was also some slight interaction with Fizban in one of the novels with Finder Wyvernspur as a god where he sends a kender as Krynn's eyes and hands (and talkative mouth) to interact with the gods of the other sphere; this would be odd if he had his own Toril based aspect.
-Finder's Bane, one of the best Forgotten Realms stand-alone novels out there.
(Though, I guess it wasn't exactly stand-alone, since it built off of the Lost Gods books with Finder Wyvernspur) |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 20 Dec 2017 16:03:07 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 17:30:17
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| Yep, that's the one - could not come up with the name for nothing. Brain's getting old. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 18:08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There was also some slight interaction with Fizban in one of the novels with Finder Wyvernspur as a god where he sends a kender as Krynn's eyes and hands (and talkative mouth) to interact with the gods of the other sphere; this would be odd if he had his own Toril based aspect.
-Finder's Bane, one of the best Forgotten Realms stand-alone novels out there.
(Though, I guess it wasn't exactly stand-alone, since it built off of the Lost Gods books with Finder Wyvernspur)
Slight correction: It was one of the Lost Gods books. 
I believe the book was originally intended to be a Planescape novel, but got labeled as an FR book, instead.
I love the first and third books of that trilogy; the Fistandantilus one is a painful slog for me. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Dec 2017 18:09:39 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 20:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Right, meant the series with Alias and Dragonbait and where he becomes a god, the Finder's Stone trilogy.
Fair enough. |
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Avatars of Elemental gods during Time of Troubles
