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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Dec 2017 : 19:21:43
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-That's kinda like where the Elemental Planes intersect with the Negative and Positive Planes, creating the Quasielemental regions where it's like the diminished aspect of the element and the element on steroids. Negative Plane intersects with the Plane of Earth, creating the Dust Quasielemental region, earth in its weakest, cruddiest form. Positive Plane intersects with the Plane of Earth, creating the Mineral Quasielemental region, earth in its most healthiest, robust form.
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(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2017 : 20:13:24
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An NPC of mine claims his ability to drink alcohol without ill effect comes from having spent time on the Paraelemental Plane of Ale, and he simply ignores anyone who says it doesn't exist.  |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2017 : 23:39:14
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I know quite little of the "Utter East" region, but find this thread really interesting (also, only google hit on internet who made sense with the Incarnum and Skarn/Rilkan races.. ).
Btw: One idea I had, was the energy of Void as element, is phlogiston. If so, the "Void" inside the crystal spheres in D&D would be impure, or mixed, I think, or have an opposite "void" counterpart, para elemental mix of Void and Positive/Negative energy?
"void" inside a sphere could well have entropic energy, but would by this theory, be an inferior para elemental mix, and the energy likewise. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2017 : 06:40:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
An NPC of mine claims his ability to drink alcohol without ill effect comes from having spent time on the Paraelemental Plane of Ale, and he simply ignores anyone who says it doesn't exist.
The Faerunian pantheon absolutely needs a god of getting shitfaced drunk. He can be the patron of booze, and a sign of favor from him is waking up from a drinking binge without a hangover.
He also drinks the dwarven pantheon under the table, and one of his faith's legends about him is him getting drunk and waking up the next morning to a thoroughly satiated Sune. |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2017 : 14:20:04
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Though, according to this: http://www.friesian.com/elements.htm
India had 3 elements originally: fire, water and earth. Makes sense with what little I know of the ancient Indian writings. One thought: If the "northmen" is RL Aryans, and Ffolk is mirroring some other component to Indian population, and we borrow the 3 elements as "original" for an thought experiment, the scholars in Utter east, might know of the changes to elements from the old writings. If it's important to have a source, a king might even have decided at a time "we now got an new element, and I'm now Lord of the Void/Aether/Metal. Priests and Mages, please update your spellbooks and holy books accordingly", and issue a date for this event.
If there is issues with elements and rulers/correspondences in the Utter East area, import what you need from main FR or Kara-Tur, and borrow "Chinese" ish ones from classes, as Wu-jen or Shugenja classes, or "European" elemental magic/alchemy (void, aether, wood & metal). I'm sure the Lords would, if needed. |
Edited by - Starshade on 25 Dec 2017 14:25:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2017 : 14:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
An NPC of mine claims his ability to drink alcohol without ill effect comes from having spent time on the Paraelemental Plane of Ale, and he simply ignores anyone who says it doesn't exist.
The Faerunian pantheon absolutely needs a god of getting shitfaced drunk. He can be the patron of booze, and a sign of favor from him is waking up from a drinking binge without a hangover.
He also drinks the dwarven pantheon under the table, and one of his faith's legends about him is him getting drunk and waking up the next morning to a thoroughly satiated Sune.
That's part of the reason I like Cayden Cailean from Pathfinder... He represents freedom, his temples are often taverns, and he was a mortal who became a god on a drunken bet! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2017 : 16:44:43
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Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...
'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).
Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.
Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"
Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2017 : 01:16:55
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I don't see why the Realms can't have a deity like Cayden Cailean. Obviously, his backstory would have to be tweaked, and that could be a bit of a challenge, but I don't see that having a deity like him wouldn't work.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2017 : 11:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...
'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).
Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.
Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"
Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?
Golarion has things like incestuous rapist cannibal giants, kaiju and fricking Nyarlathotep. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2017 : 16:39:10
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...
'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).
Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.
Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"
Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?
Golarion has things like incestuous rapist cannibal giants, kaiju and fricking Nyarlathotep.
Golarion has a lot of niftiness, but there's a lot I'm not fond of, as well. The direct connection to the Cthulhu stuff is not my cup of tea. There's a Gothic horror nation, another where self-mutilation is the thing to do, a techno-barbarian nation, and Egypt with the serial numbers filed off. Oh, and a nation where someone has managed to convince everyone that he is a god, and has gotten away with it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2017 : 19:28:15
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See? Thats the odd thing to me. They purposely did a psuedo-Egypt without the actual Egyptian gods, which is what FR got WRONG (and they got right). But then they go and call the Cthulhu pantheon by its actual names. We have those creatures - we just have them all renamed (most of them fall under 'Elder Evils', or aspects of the Elder Elemental Eye - Tharizdun). Some of the Obyriths also qualify. In fact, come to think of it, ALL Obyriths do, given their heritage.
I think of Golarion as FR 2.0 - someone taking all of Ed's most basic premises and re-spinning them into something a bit more coherent (for a more 'modern' audience). In other words, groups with similar cultures get lumped together geographically. Ya know, rather than having 20 or so psuedo-Middle eastern cultures haphazardly EVERYWHERE. Whereas we have a completely useless Katashaka (because we already have Chult), they have just one 'Africanesque' region. That sort of thing. it was just planned better, IMHO.
I would have loved if they used The Sundering to reboot the whole setting (IN-setting, mind you, so it technically wouldn't be a 'reboot', a'la Star Trek). Imagine getting guys like Ed, Steven, Eric, George, etc.,* to rewrite the OGB from scratch. Keep everything there, but do it in such a way with all the knowledge we now have about the setting, and also for 5e rules. It would have been freakin' AMAZING. Then moving forward, the rule would be, "the old canon still applies unless rewritten by newer canon", which no-one should have a problem with, since that's what we keep getting anyway. Then we can ignore things like the absurdities in DoD and the Nethril box. Novels would still be canon, following the same rule (characters may even have some hazy memory of things 'happening a little differently', like deja vu, but not quite).
Heck, we could even have 'Old Elmeinster' like Spock, where his old tired self meets a slightly younger model... and can finally get the rest he deserved. Or like Superman currently in the comics - "You may be Elminster, but you're not my Elminster." Imagine the joy the Old Mage would have in seeing folk like Sylune and Alusair alive again... before he himself 'shuffled off this mortal coil". It would be an awesome homage to both the editions that have passed, and to the Wizard who held our hands while we traveled through them. "This be not my Realms, but it is a fine thing unto itself. I fear I must part now - I am no longer truly part of this world." {fades}
*(EDIT) - How did I forget Jeff Grubb? He'd be a must on a project like that! (and now I have the Cher song "If I could turn back time" stuck in my head, except an old bearded man is singing it). Maybe I shouldn't have watched the Doctor Who Christmas special last night... NAAAAAH. 
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...
'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).
Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.
Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"
Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?
Golarion has things like incestuous rapist cannibal giants, kaiju and fricking Nyarlathotep.
Like I said, a bunch of light-hearted, wacky, silliness.
I kid, I KID... 
Yes, it has its 'dark', but it also has its zaniess. You can take that setting and run any flavor game you want, depending on where you 'set up camp'. I think they Realms started out like that, but over the years we've been handed more and more 'realistic' (logical?) lore, and while i am a HUGE fan of consistency, sometimes it starts to look like 'more of the same', and I begin to miss some of that wackiness I got with Greyhawk.
Of course, I could always have some Lichlings (Nightmare Keep) mounted on Thornblights (Sunless Citadel) if I wanted. Undead wasps riding killer tumbleweeds is pretty damn zany, and if I have them under the control of a Headless Zhent, well, I think I may be on-par with GH's 'Coca-Cola' elementals and chocolate bunny golems (then again, maybe not).
And Kaiju? We have Krakentua!
Basically, Titan-sized illithids - it doesn't get more crazy than THAT.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Dec 2017 03:01:33 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2017 : 21:20:33
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| -I think the "zaniness factor" has to be downplayed a little bit to make sense of things from a world-building stand point, but on a case-by-case basis, it's there. I mean, I'll just use a personal anecdote, but I don't really care for Ed Greenwood's writing because a lot of it has that. It's easier to see it on a smaller level than on a giant scale- unless you are going for a world that is more weird. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2017 : 03:15:03
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I don't think the Elder Evils and the Elder Eye are anywhere close to the Cthulhu mythos. The Worm that Walks is Kyuss, a lackey of Nerull, for instance, while Zargon is obviously a piece of Baatorian propaganda. The Leviathan is a bizarre attempt to shoehorn the Bibical beast into D&D, the snake obyrith is just an obyrith.
You'd be better off trying to match the abberant deities to the Cthulhu mythos. Just look at Blibdolpoolp and Piscaenthes. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 05:32:14
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I was going through an old Dragon magazine, looking for gods, and I came across an interesting ad.
The Utter East |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 12:16:22
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| They must have crossed the game with those short series of novels (The Double Diamond Triangle Saga). Maybe there is bloodforge information in them as well? I've yet to start reading them, but I did pick them up. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 01:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It feels weird to see 1997. Those games and books feel like they were written so much earlier.
Yup.
I recall reading a comic book YEARS AGO featuring the 'Ironman of 2020', and I remember thinking, "they're writing stuff for that far into the future?"
Thats only two years from now. Time flies.
When I was a kid, my brother used to send me Deathlok comics from the army (as far as I know, the only comic my brother ever read). It was my first regular Marvel title (I was a DC boy back then). In the final issue, he disappeared through a portal following some guy from the past (I believe it was the early 90's, or there-abouts).
Then years later, I am reading a comic and Deathlok... the ORIGINAL Deathlok... comes out of a portal. Its the same REAL YEAR as the year Deathlok was operating in in his comic.
They literally 'shelfed him' until the real world caught up to him. There is just no way they could have planned that 20 years in advance. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 02:42:04 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 02:49:37
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There were two of him. Because the timeline caught up (and no-one ages in comics LOL), they had to say he ws from an alternate timeline, and then there was second one they had just built for the main timeline, and the two fought. It was so cool - the guy disappears when i was a kid in the 70's (in a comic set in the early 90's), and then the same RW year in the early 90's he steps back out of the portal. That was like... OMG! I was 10 years old all over again. {Squeeeeeeeeee!)
He always was an amazing character WAY ahead of his time for the 70's. He was nuts - he and the computer (in head) would argue all the time, and then this 3rd personality formed that reveled in all the blood and guts (that both of the other personalities were just trying to ignore... but it was pretty gruesome... something the military did). He was able to hold the title all by himself with no support cast for the longest time, just because he was always talking to himself! All the characters were HIM!
The later, main-continuity version was a bit 'milkish' by comparison. The first guy was a product of the Vietnam era. he was suposed to be somehting people feared becoming. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 14:09:16
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With Kwan Ying, the curious thing is the reall life deity/figure she is based on, Guan Yin, also known as Kwan Yin, or in Japan, Kannon, was originally a Buddhist bodhisattva, Avalokitesvara, who had strong Vedic/Hindu influence.
Most notably, the "Swara" part of Avalokitesvara's name, refers to Avalokitesvara being inspirired by, and in part, and incarnation of Shiva, who is also known by the name Swara.
(This is part of the reason why Shiva is a goddess in Final Fantasy games, the other reason being Ardhanarishvara, the hermaphroditic merger of Shiva and Parvati).
(While, a form of Shiva being seen as a power of compassion, joy, and mercy, can be bizarre, he isn't actually in any way seen as alicioius in Hinduism - indeed "Shiva", means "Auspicious One", or "Kind". Even Shiva's predecsor, Rudra, was seen as both a deity of destruction and protection - it was to Rudra, it was prayed for healing, protection, and all instances of all diseases and ailment. While also being the cause of sickness. Rudra being both the god of disease, and of healing, being at core a dualistic being).
I'm not quite sure though Kwan Ying could be also present in Utter East (as well as Tabot, and Ra-Khati), seeing she is at least strongly implied to have been the Sapphire Empress of Shou Lung if the same name originally. |
Edited by - Baltas on 27 Feb 2018 14:35:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 21:39:18
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I'm still toying with my proto-cosmology (as I probably forever shall), but right now my thoughts are (in D&D) that Ahura Mazda = proto-Jazirian (Jazirian is just an aspect), and Angra Mainyu = Ahriman, and those two became conjoined (but NOT 'merged') in order to save reality when the Lattice of Heaven was shattered. Basically, I've reworked the story of Guide to Hell, and they did create the Great Wheel - a vast artifact of inconceivable power designed to hold the shattered bits of reality together, by recollecting all the lost 'soul stuff' (The 'Anima') from the Sundered Supernal Ymir (the sentience of the Material Plane).
So, interpreting ALL other religions/mythology into this model, Shiva is also Angra Mainyu. Thus, Guanyin is a female aspect of the Angra Mainyu. The 'mercy/compassion' aspect of Angra-Mainyu derives from it being one half the two being that acted quicly to save the universe, and thus, all of creation (including mortals). Both Supernals are 'beings of necessity' (as are all supernals), and although individual aspects can have alignment-like attributes, the archtype CANNOT - they are above/beyond morality. So Guanyin might be 'compassionate', but that derives from the archtype's necessity to save everything, so it is more of a mortal conceit (as are nearly all 'aspects').
Kwan Ying may have been named with that being in mind ('firm but just'), but she is NOT Guanyin.
Sseth is another (reptilian) aspect of the Angra Mainyu, but it was later absorbed by Set, who was child of Geb (Ymir) and Nut (Aeon/Gaea), and Set became known as Seth. This makes Set not only one of the oldest and most powerful Gods in the universe (Estelar, or 'Elder Gods'), but because of his absorption of an aspect of Angra-Maiyu, it has given him a tenuous, almost 'familial' relationship with Asmodeus (who was granted a piece of Angra-Mainyu's power, much like a 'Chosen').
'The Gods' are a VERY dysfunctional family. LOL
EDIT:
Whats interesting here is that Tiamat used to live in The Hells - with Asmodeus (who I have as - because of the stuff in Guide to hell - an Incarnation of Ahriman). Now she lives in Tytherion, with Zehir... who is an aspect of Set, who himself absorbed an aspect of Ahriman (so she basically went form living with one aspect of Angra Mainyu, to living with a different aspect of it). We also have the interesting situation there of two Mulan gods - from conflicting pantheons - living together. I guess she's one of those females who thrives on abusive relationships and conflict.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 21:48:49 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2018 : 23:52:17
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| -You'd probably get a very different lists if you separated them by "in game" and "what we know". We know so-and-so is just a guise of whoever, and that this person also goes by this name, but in world, it's a lot easier to just throw names out there because all that symmetry does not need to be made. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 01:18:46
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Oh, I didn't mean Kwan Ying being literally Guanyin, or identical to her in (nearly or literally) all aspects just that I thought of a way of including her in the Utter East "pantheon", just under an alias based on Avalokitesvara name, and possibly masculine. And pointed out some reall world connections, as an inspiration.
I apologize for the confusion, as it's my fault, due to how I wrote it.
But upon further research, Avalokitesvara, and other Buddhist interpretation allready have a separate (from we know) counterpart from Kwan Ying. Which is Mahavidi, who exactly shares Avalokitesvara connection with the Dalai Lama, and is based on other names Shiva uses in Buddhism (Mahadeva and Mahesvara).
So now in turn, I think Mahavidi would be far better suited to use in Utter East, especially that the names/titles he uses (Mahadeva and Mahesvara) are also used in Hinduism, and in Vedic religion Mahadeva was used for Rudra. (And Mahavidi is almost an anagram of Mahadeva).
But that's just my idea, I'm not sure if you will use it, or even like it...
With Shiva and Asmodeus, it's interesting as Inevitables - examplars of Lawful Neutral in 3E - are essentially an extension of Maruts.
Shiva/Rudra, was also seen in Zoroastrianism as a Archdemon/Daeva under Ahriman - Sarva/Savul.
With the Mulan Gods, there is another who is an aspect of Ahriman - Druaga.
Druaga was possibly also intended as an aspect of Asmodeus (or vice versa) by the writers of Deities and Demigods, as Druaga wields his Ruby Mace (compare to the Ruby Rod of Asmodeus), and resides in the Nine Hells, and is titled "The Ruler of the Devil World".
Druaga was also a late addition to the reall life Babylonian pantheon, and is considered an adaptation Ahriman into the pantheon, with his name derived from o the concept of "Druj"/"Drug" (which was closelly connected to Ahriman), which was even spelled in some forms almost like Druaga (the Young Avestan derivation "Draoga" and Old Persian derivation "Drauga").
In general, because of that I used Druaga as Asmodeus' early divine aspect, used to infiltrate other pantheons. |
Edited by - Baltas on 01 Mar 2018 02:50:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 03:28:33
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I peg Druaga as an Obyrith who went to live with the devils, post-Dawn War. He sure doesn't look like a devil, and he otherwise fits a demon lord much better, so one can only surmise that he isn't in the Abyss because there is another, perhaps more powerful, Obyrith there that he doesn't get along with (like Pazazu).
Thus, in my own (homebrewed) cosmology, Druaga is uber-powerful, more-so than many archfiends, because of his extra-universal nature, but as an Obyrith, he can't possibly be an avatar/aspect of anyone (although it is entirely possible he may have found a way to 'tap into' the power of Baator itself, which is actually the power of the Supernal Ahriman). I'm not sure how to connect him to the Sumerlonian pantheon(s) (he isn't even 'real' - he was made-up for D&D!) And now trying to place him properly, I just discovered Gallu, some sort of Sumerian arch-fiend (there are only seven of them, and the seven seem capable of forcing even gods to do stuff). I think I just found Druaga's personal entourage.
Because of what he is, Asmodeus probably just has to 'put up with him', and at least if gives him a potential ally against incursions from other Obyriths into The Nine Hells (Graz'zt is half-Obyrith, but he left the Hells a long time ago... perhaps when Druaga showed up). *Hmph* - its almost as if Graz'st and Druaga (the way I spin him) are opposites - I might be better off making Druaga another half-Obyrith, although I don't know who the parentage might be, considering how funky he looks. Perhaps something truly bizarre, like an Obyrith and a Draeden? He just scream 'Lovecratian' to me, that's why I want to go with the Obyriths so bad. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2018 03:32:25 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 04:12:51
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Well, not exactly invented, it's just like Dahak, it's a misplaced Persian/Zoroastrian concept/Enitity. As I mentioned, it's a borrowing of "Druj" (Embodiment of the concept of Lie), from what I researched a mispelling of the Old Persian spelling form "Drauga".
http://www.avesta.org/zglos.html#druj
Druj/Drauga though, was seen as female, rather than male, although seeing Druaga looks, misgendering him/her can be understandable XD
(Druj was often thought to be more of a concept, personified by Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, but sometimes was seen as personified being, and then was though as "female".)
So to be clear, Druaga is an actuall mythological/religious entity just kinda misportrayed, and mixed with Angra Mainyu/Ahriman (which isn't that far off though, as they were considered interchangable at times).
(And to be clear, I did think Druaga adapted into Babylonian religion, if one without any reall mythology behind him, due to reading about it in wrong information, years ago. I guess Deities and Demigods fooled tons of people. Especially seeing others fallen for it - there is a popular, lasting since 80s video game series "The Tower of Druaga", the Japanese being fooled by Deities and Demigods into thinking Druaga is an anctual Mesopotamian deity XD)
One of the most interesting usages of Druj/Drauga, was in Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader, were Druj rebelled agaist Ahriman, and became good, but Asha (Druj's opposite, the personification of Truth) fallen, and started to serve Ahriman, becoming his most powerfull servant.
With Druaga Lovecraftian look, I myself had him to be an "Old Baatorian" looking manifestation of Asmodeus/Ahriman, who also were Lovecraftian monstrocities.
I mean, Zargon (who was the ruler of Ancient Baatrians in the Elder Evils sourcebook), is quite similar.
Gallu, are interesting, but from what I know, are connected to Djinn, and specifically thought by researchers the Arabian word "Ghoul", evolved from Galla, and Ghouls were originally seen as a type of Djinn.
But to be fair, it wouldn't be that far of connecting Druaga to Gallu (especiallly that Galla are sometimes translated as "Devils"), especially seeing for example Daeva in Pathfinder are corrupted genies, and it's not the only example of connecting the two. (I mean Genies/Djinn and Daeva). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 05:28:34
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Interesting, The Zargon lore paints Asmodeus as 'the hero'.
I was going to say, maybe Druaga IS Zargon, but it might be simpler to say that Druaga is a child of Zargon (and Zargon itself is a 'runaway aspect' (Savage) of Ahirman, who is the very essence of the Hells itself.
So going with some of my other recent musings, the Supernal Ahriman has to get his own dimension and energy type. Now, we don't actually have to know what each dimension is (because I don't think Quantum physics has even figured that out), but I suppose we could use 'indifference' (the opposite of compassion). So basically, EVIL energy is just pure indifference, or, 'a lack of any sort of compassion'. Whereas pure Chaos is more like cruelty. Lawful Evil can be cruel, but only if it serves a purpose (otherwise its a waste of energy).
So its like this - the Supernals are all busy 'building' the universe (really, they are creating lesser beings to do that), and Ohrmazd & Ahriman decide they want to put a cosmic highway down the center of a bunch of stuff. Ahriman snaps its fingers and obliterates everything in the path. Ohrmazd would be like, "what did you do that for? We could have just pushed them all to the side?', and Ahriman would be like, "Why? Who cares?" Basically, efficiency taken to an amoral extreme.
So lets say the Baatorans are really dollops of 'Evil' made flesh, and Zargon was like the king of those. Zargon hooks up with an Obyrith (Queen of Chaos?), and they beget Druaga. In its natural form, Druaga looks 'male' (somewhat), but it can take any form, and often goes around as a human female. Thus, Druaga becomes the true 'heir' of Hell, much to Asmodeus' chagrin, since Asmodeus went to a LOT of trouble to get rid of his dad. So Druaga makes some friends in the Sumerian pantheon (Nergal & Ereshkigal?) and stays with them sometimes, although he still maintains his home in Dis. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 12:31:52
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Interesting idea with Zargon being the "father" of Druaga.
It's also interesting Zargon, appears to be named after a corruption of the Akkadian name "Sargon", and the Zargos mountain rage.
The Zargos mountain range, was sometimes though to embody the realm and entity of Kur.
Kur was also personified as a dragon, but his atributes were essentially combined with Nammu's, resulting in Enuma Elish's Tiamat.
But in general, Kur does resemble quite Ahriman as described in the Guide to Hell, as well as Khyber of Eberron.
(Although also having similarities to Chronepsis, Falzure and Null).
Also, returning to Utter East, I think the "Goddess of Murder" mentioned in the Complete Book of Necromancers, or some god in her guise, could be worshipped in the Utter East:
quote:
The Goddess of Murder
This evil deity embraces cold murder as the quintessential act of destruction, symbolic of the primordial chaos and the unpredictable forces of nature that oppose humanity. This deity is the patron of all unnatural and premeditated killing, whether it is inflicted on others or upon oneself. She opposes order, creation, and all existence.
The male priests of this goddess, sometimes called Stranglers or Assassins, spread death around the world by murdering for their Dark Mother, the Queen of the Noose, our Maid of Despair. Her priests advance the religion into the heart of civilization, efficiently eliminating any who speak out against them. Assassination is their most sacred mission, a holy and meritorious enterprise undertaken in the service of their deity. The priesthood's goal is to subvert societies and destroy civilizations through strife, terror, and coercion. Because of their evil nature, the DM should only allow these priests to be NPCs in the campaign.
Alignment: This deity is utterly chaotic and evil. Her priests and worshippers may be of any evil alignment, but the majority will match the disposition of their goddess.
This goddess of course, is obviously Kali, if not directly named so.
It's possible Bhaal, later Cyric (and now again Bhaal?), could use this guise, or this could be very specific aspect of Shar, or the Demon Princess of Marilith's Shaktari (who appeared in the 60th issue of the Dungeon magazine, and explored further in Dragon #359), who is visibly based on Kali:
https://wiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Shaktari
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shaktari_(3.5e_Deity)
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Shaktari
Or the Goddes of Murder, could be even a guise used by Kalistes, the Marilith from the classic Pool of Darkness Goldbox videogame, seeing she has a semi-canon connection to the Realms allready, and Bane and/or Bhaal (seeing she curiously served Bane) could give the spells to her priests.
(Although it's possible Kalistes coukd switch her aligance permanently to Cyric, after Bane's initial(?) (again, the current "Bane", might be just Iyachtu Xvim) death, seeing he more fit's her alignment.)
[EDIT]
Or another possiblity is, that the Goddess of Murder, may be as well the Weaver aspect of Shekinester... |
Edited by - Baltas on 01 Mar 2018 12:57:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 21:53:09
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Yeah, I remember finding evidence of Kali on Toril long ago (aside from the fact the K-T material specifically states you should use the Vedic Pantheon for Maltra, and even names a few of those gods). I spun it where she was 'adopted' by the disenfranchised (oppressed) Mar people (who are indeed an Indian-esque people), and they call her Khali-Mar ('Mother of Mar', who protects her 'children' by giving them the power to defeat their enemies). Basically, they have a Thuggee-Cult thing going on.
I wanted to connect her to the Fortress of the Old Man up in the Taan region, after Bhaal died during the ToT (those assassins were 'shopping' for a new god; they had been forced to settle for Cyric for the time-being). I thought Kali would have made a great and very flavorful edition to The Realms, but alas, Mark Sehestedt's novel Sentinelspire completely squashed that idea. I have since forgotten who finally did come into possession of the place - I recall a half-orc (I think) taking it over, but I don't recall who his god was. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2018 22:07:36 |
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NEW Utter East project thread
