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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, I think we figured out the 'Realm of Fire' was up near 'the top' - probably the border area between the uE and Ulgarth (on my original uE map, I stuck some volcanos in there). If you look at that map (its here in CK's Map Room) you can see where I put it - an arm of the mountains extending between the Stoney Waste and Serpent Valley (a swamp where I believe the vampire-looking dude came from).

There is no map laying out the Realms in the game, which I suppose is both good and bad (because if they did something stupid - or contradictory - it would be really hard to fix it). EDIT: I stand corrected, there was a smooshed (BAD) map included in the game.

I have also assumed there was 'Fifth' Kingdom (since the Utter East IS referred to as the 'Five Kingdoms') in the ast, that wasn't involved in the Bloodforge War (or just never got a mention - we can spin it either way), but because of the Vedic spin we are putting on things now (rather than a Chinese/Japanese spin, which would be Metal/wood), I'm going with 'Void' (or Aether), because reasons.

Maybe it wasn't involved in the BF Wars because they couldn't find it (Void, get it?)

I planned to put The Realm of Water down around Konigheim, and then have a 'no-mans land' between it and Doegan where another kingdom once existed, but only because of the Northmen association with water. However, I'm rethinking that, because Doegan, I believe, was the one with the really odd looking people (so it had more of a lovecraftian, "Shadow Over Innsmouth" vibe to it). Although some Konigheimers had a '3rd eye' in their foreheads, we decided (way back) to attribute that to the Mar influences in the region (that kingdom has a very strange blend of Indian and Norse cultures). Ascetics following a certain path (PrC in 3e lingo) could 'awaken' their 3rd eye and have it become real (it was just a tattoo the priesthood sported before that). This, BTW is where we think Savras originated (he was born a Mar, and traveled to Halruaa to learn 'greater mysteries of the art'). His period of capture by Azuth is probably when the Northemn and Ffolk first started their devastation of the Five Kingdoms (thus, he was unable to act).

Maybe Koenigheim was the Realm of Lands (the southern half of it, anyway) because I picture that being pretty rocky and barren. then the belt of unsettled land between Konigheim and Doegan (still technically part of Konigheim, but only because no one bothers to challenge their claim to it) could be 'Void' (Aether). The only problem with that is that makes the RoF and the RoL at opposite ends of the uE, making the lore in the B&M VG a bit odd.

I'll try to throw something together real quick, for reference, and then we can tweak it.

EDIT:
Aaaaaaaaaand... GIMP crashed.
But I tricked it... I saved just before it happened! I had to add the layer masks (out of vanity - I just couldn't have the coasts looking THAT messy), and I found a problem that would have bitten me in the rump later on, so its good I decided to do this (I had a small section of coast on the wrong layer - it was driving me nuts trying to find why a certain tool wasn't working properly). I also added in all the 'Realm' names (current). I was just tidying up a river valley when it crashed. The very next things was going to be to add the theoretical 'Realms of Order' (what a gawd-awful name) in shaded areas. Almost got there, too.

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Originally posted by BadCatMan

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I still like the idea that Tartyron himself isn't air, but rather is metal for his "elemental linkage". I also like the idea that he tried to link himself to "negative elemental energy", and that's what got him imprisoned.

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Tartyron could've switched his elemental focus: taken away from the air and bound underground, amidst fire and earth, he was forced to encase himself in metal armour (to stop the air leaking out?) and devote himself to elemental metal or something instead. Whatever the Circle of Order's deal, there's a shocking level of cruelty in his punishment for vague "chaotic schemes".

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey, do we have anything approaching a map/picture showing the layout in game of the 3 different realms? I think I saw something that showed the land of fire might be at the top, such that maybe Ulgarth and the utter east is separated by volcanos.

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There is indeed a map in the game; I've included it on each of the pages of the wiki for each area of the game. It compresses the canon maps of the Utter East substantially in the north–south direction, so it takes some examining to compare the game locations with other maps of the Utter East. (What I couldn't include where the highlighted borders between these places, but they mostly follow geography.)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Blood_%26_Magic_game_map.jpg

Ten years ago, I took a canon map, the B&M game map, and the novel map, compared the locations, and combined them on a proper map. So, it may be crude, but this is the only canonical combined map of the various versions of the Utter East, plus Ulgarth. One discrepancy is that the novels moved Edenvale from beside Herne's Wood/the Sempadan Forest to much further north. (Maybe the whole kingdom had to relocate from the Jungle of Monsters? Or there's two Edenvales?)
https://badcatman.deviantart.com/art/Combined-Utter-East-map-714820695

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Originally posted by Markustay

So we have Five Exarchs of their Elemental (primordial) Lords, who 'brought order to the Utter East'*, and over time they became despots (perhaps 'enlightened despots in one or two cases). No-one liked my Tartyron = Bane idea, eh? It was just a thought. The problem is, when you have FIVE different people all making laws, and then they disagree, who's right? Thats why the first Bloodforge Wars happened.

We also have to figure out who this theoretical 'Fifth lord' (Aether) is, and where he/she got off to (since they didn't seem to be involved in the wars at all). I placed that realm down by Yakiria, so maybe we can do something with that? Maybe we can spin him as Savras? (an 'Aether' = 'Magic' thing?)

And lastly, maybe one or more of these 'lords' is actually one of the 'evils' that is locked-away? Maybe things became so bad the Mar revolted and locked their own leaders behind seals? That would be a neat spin on things. As exarchs they should be immortal, so they wouldn't die, and locking them away may have been the only solution the Mar could come up with. So we'd have one or more ancient, pissed-off demipowers... if they weren't wholly evil before, they should be by now.


*I don't think they would have called it the Utter East - that's from a Faerūnian perspective. And the 'Realms of Order' sounds kind of stupid (maybe it was just the 'official' name). I'd prefer we just start referring to those ancient, fallen kingdoms as 'The Five Kingdoms', which fits the lore. Its probably what the common mar called them.

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Element           Energy
Earth             Acid
Air (wind')       Electricity
Fire              Heat/Fire
Water             Cold
Alloy ('life')    Sonic 

Void (Entropy)    Death (necrotic energy)

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

I'll have to plug in my portable hard drive and look at some of those old FR Elves files. Going by memory, all I really remember were the Star Elves in the Yuirwood (and they aren't really that East enough) and the Eastern Lythari. The Eastern Lythari were in the Hordelands, but unless some book or sourcebook has filled in some of the blanks, they're still a pretty big mystery as to their history and the hows and whys as to why they're there.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

The thing that feels off to me regarding the Realms of Order having ties to the Elemental Lords is that nature (and thus the Elemental Lords) is way too chaotic to want to bring order and law. I know the Elemental Lords are all technically neutral, but that always felt wrong to me. I feel like it's more that they are neutral in their dealings and their cold, uncaring attitudes towards mortals, but not in what they represented. Only maybe Grumbar could be seen as orderly and lawful, but Kossuth, Ishtisha, Akadi...fire, air, and water are unpredictable and chaotic (especially Akadi as Teylas, with an emphasis on lightning and storms). Why would the Elemental Lords wanting to be bringing law and order to the area?

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Originally posted by Markustay


Maybe Ubtao can be Aether. I never know what to do with Ubtao; I keep changing my mind about him.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Same God, different cultures.

Added Monkey, Garagos, Lakshmi, Beshaba, and Fate to the above list.

Most are self-explanatory, but 'Fate' is more acknowledged and accepted and has no actual following (as it is in Zakhara, IIRC). In fact, she is usually used as an expletive when things go wrong ("cursed Fatima!"). Unlike her believers in Zakhara, however, they people of the Utter East do not believe everything is 'set in stone'. They believe some folk have a destiny, but they also believe that you can can write your own, as well. Also, followers of Surya are big on divinations in the Ue, and this puts them at odds sometimes with the beliefs of Fate, and at other times, in agreement (because divining the future implies Fate, while knowing it enables you to change it). Fortunately, since Fatima has no organized following, there is no friction.

Surya, like so many of the (Indian) gods in my above list is NOT the Hindu/Vedic Surya. He is an aspect of Aumanator, and his worship here in the Utter East is a borderline heresy. His priesthood's justification of their penchant for divinations (and the whole 'Third Eye' thing) is that Aumanator has 'time' in his portfolio, which means them doing augeries makes sense.

Soma is Untamo, the 'King of Dreams'. There is only one, even though he may appear different in different pantheons. No-one knows his true form (he is the 'stuff of dreams', after all). This means he is the same as the Indian Soma. Garuda is another that IS the god he seems to be. Most of the others are just other Torilian gods posing as Indian gods.

I went over all of this a LONG time ago in the original thread, so I didn't want to rehash it here, but the quick version is this: Some of the Mar-Ang people were being plagued by Raksasha (the 'lesser' ones), and they cried out 'to the gods' for help. Buhei (The Black Leopard, who also happens to be a rare 'good' Raksasha) heard their pleas, and contacted Soma to send those people 'visions' of the Vedic pantheon in their dreams. Although most of the people receiving the sendings began to feel hope that these gods would come and help them, a brother and sister (twins) became zealous about these beings, and so Indra and Yama sent avatars to merge with them in their sleep, becoming Manifestations. These were the first two, and Garuda followed 'in person' (Soma was obviously already there because of the dreams). The brother and sister lead their people against the Raksashi and drove them off, and so began the beginnings of a 'Maltra Pantheon', based loosely on the Indian one.

Like the manifestations of the Pharonic (and other) pantheons in the Old Empires, those two gods are technically still aspects of the original, multispheric (archtype) power, but they are also very different and independent of it. Since this culture was rapidly going from beast-totem and spirit worship to organized religion, MANY Torillian powers took notice and hopped on board (answering the prayers to the Indian gods that were NOT present). This is STILL happening - the three drow deities were 'late arrivals' to the pantheon, only after the Mar migrated into Guge, and other places technically 'Faerūn', and their ancient temples discovered. I have to assume they had some death god - probably Jergal - and when he 'fell off' they never took to Myrkul (because they still had some Earth-lore {religion} that Yama was in charge of that... even though our Yami didn't care about it at all).

Myrkul, for his part, was warned to stay out of 'The East' by Yen Wang Yeh when he ascended, and not wanting to annoy that ancient power, abided (which included Maltra and the Mar people). Yen Wang Yeh DOES act as 'judge of the dead' over ALL K-Ters, which includes the peoples of lower Kara-Tur, but he isn't really worshiped by them (like fate, they simply acknowledge his existence as part of the 'Celestial Order').

Post-3e, the Raven Queen made some overtures toward the gods of the Utter East, and offered to take 'death' off of Yami's hands (who never wanted it), in exchange for not having anything to do with nature or the Ue's Yaksha (Fey) in the region. She also promised to keep Auril out of the Yehimals if she was granted dominion over their cold aspect as well. Yami sent her priests visions that this would be to her liking, and TRQ's following is beginning to take root in the Ue. Obviously, The Raven Queen got the better part of this deal, since she had little 'control' over nature or non-shadow fey anyway. She has also made an alliance with Yen Wang Yeh - she holds the death portfolio, but HE is still the Judge of the Dead (Jergal still sorts all the dead and sends them to their proper afterlifes/pantheons, probably without Kelemvor even realizing that 'layer' exists).

And as to that, this 'region' is not an official 'pantheon-controlled' area, like how the old Empires got separated from the rest of Faerūn. There is nothing 'blocking' other gods from gaining followings here - just about anything should be allowed, and their are many people who have settled here who still venerate their own gods (for example, the Ffolk still pay homage to The Earthmother, but since there are no Moonwells in the area, her worship has taken the form of small hearth-shrines in the home).

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Markustay


Maybe Ubtao can be Aether. I never know what to do with Ubtao; I keep changing my mind about him.

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-Does he even exist anymore? Ubtao was always a weird kind of deity. Kinda cool, but kinda pointless, but kinda not.

-How would you tie Ubtao to the Utter East?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I love that concept of the mortals "becoming" manifestations via their dreams (it would also work for them becoming lesser "incarnations" as well, but this provides them the means). Its very similar to how I'm proposing that many deities "transfer" to Abeir. I'm picturing something where certain mortals actually "dream walk" to the ship of the gods island on Abeir, and its here that maybe they undergo a physical ritual that puts them into a dream state that lets them transfer over into the mortal (with Ptah, Anubis, and some dream gods working together).

That being said, this one pathway with the ship of the gods may be a pathway that certain deities come through. Other deities at the exact same time might be doing other similar things which can be left hazy, or put little pointers to fill in later.

On the idea of death gods, I'd recommend Ereshkigal, as she has the whole same look of the raven queen and everything, plus she would be part of the Untheric Pantheon (she is technically the wife of Nergal and owned the underworld before and beside him, and she is the sister of Inanna).... but maybe she chose to break away from Enlil. Since the isle of Sahu from Complete Book of Necromancer's has a city named after her, maybe she migrated south and eventually her "manifestation" settle on that island (and maybe she's even bound there similar to the lich-priestess Vermissa..... hmmm, man now I got some possibilities spinning in my head of Vermissa being possessed by Ereshkigal despite her being a priestess of Thasmudyan... maybe only occurring after her imprisonment for centuries).

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I love that concept of the mortals "becoming" manifestations via their dreams (it would also work for them becoming lesser "incarnations" as well, but this provides them the means). Its very similar to how I'm proposing that many deities "transfer" to Abeir. I'm picturing something where certain mortals actually "dream walk" to the ship of the gods island on Abeir, and its here that maybe they undergo a physical ritual that puts them into a dream state that lets them transfer over into the mortal (with Ptah, Anubis, and some dream gods working together).

That being said, this one pathway with the ship of the gods may be a pathway that certain deities come through. Other deities at the exact same time might be doing other similar things which can be left hazy, or put little pointers to fill in later.

On the idea of death gods, I'd recommend Ereshkigal, as she has the whole same look of the raven queen and everything, plus she would be part of the Untheric Pantheon (she is technically the wife of Nergal and owned the underworld before and beside him, and she is the sister of Inanna).... but maybe she chose to break away from Enlil. Since the isle of Sahu from Complete Book of Necromancer's has a city named after her, maybe she migrated south and eventually her "manifestation" settle on that island (and maybe she's even bound there similar to the lich-priestess Vermissa..... hmmm, man now I got some possibilities spinning in my head of Vermissa being possessed by Ereshkigal despite her being a priestess of Thasmudyan... maybe only occurring after her imprisonment for centuries).

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It could all work, IF you make Nergal Nerull... which actually makes a LOT of sense. Or in other words, Nerull was really a Greyhawkian (Oerthan?) aspect of Nergal (a twisted, malevolent aspect, for whatever reason you want to come up with). Maybe he didn't emigrate to Greyspace until after he was forced to take the Netherword as his Domain, and he was bitter about it? Something along those lines. That way we have the same gods 'pairing off' in different pantheons/mythos, which is kind of cool. Mortal religions tend to twist the truth anyway (or the gods themselves do - usually both).

<snip>

Mostly homebrew, of course, with me warping some RW mythology into my own stuff. Oh, and I like connecting Ereshkigal to the city - Sahu is just on the other side of the Sempadan in the Utter East, after all, and all of these gods are very active in this entire region (Pantheons and gods that existed during the Dawn War, so 'truly ancient powers', except for the Raven Queen... but we really don't know her whole story).

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Originally posted by Markustay

Except the Vedic mythos/folklore doesn't have wood or metal, they have Aether. HERE is their Elemental Beliefs (scroll down to Hinduism). However, on THIS PAGE which specifically talks about the Hindu elements (Mahabhūta) it focuses on the primary four, and then mentions only a possible other two - Akasha, or Aether, and Vijńana, or 'life force'. I preferred to associate the fifth kingdom/element with Life, but that would make Akasha = 'death', which isn't right (because we DO have two other quasi-elements in D&D - positive and negative energy).

Most religions tend to leave-off the 'negative' one (they accept that it exists, they just don't pay it any faith... usually). In order to rectify/ratify the four elements of western alchemy to the five elements of Oriental mysticism, I have named the fifth one 'Alloy' for purely mechanical reasons - it is Wood, metal, and 'Life' all in one (each religion puts a different spin on it, is all). Because even western alchemy has the fifth element ("Leeloo Multipass!"), which is a combination of the other four in perfect harmony (the basis for 'life', so 'wood', or as I interpret metal, 'alloy'). Once again, everyone is aware of 'void' or whatever they want to call the 6th one, they just ignore it.

So if we can think of it like this:

Element           Energy
Earth             Acid
Air (wind')       Electricity
Fire              Heat/Fire
Water             Cold
Alloy ('life')    Sonic 

Void (Entropy)    Death (necrotic energy)

So maybe Tartyron was Air (which filled his head with 'lofty thoughts'), and he started to fiddle with the forbidden 'element'/energy, death. Of course, if you think he fits better with Alloy (Metal/Wood/Life), than I can make that work too (because whatever's left, I have to place down in Yakiria, and I have some ideas for that. Void/death would work better, of course, for Yakfolk).

And the interesting thing here is that there are devas (I believe canonically, but I haven't read the FoD novel) in nearby Langdarma, who I'm now spinning as the Wind Dukes of Aqua (Vaati). Those guys should be associated with Air as well... but then why do they have 'Aqua' in the name? Perhaps there are actually Vaati for each element, like 'elemental angels'?

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