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Originally posted by Markustay

The Earth Guy seems to have been attacked first (in the one campaign), so I would spin it that the 'powers that be' found him "innocent of the taint of Chaos", so he manages to keep his ascetic (Exarch of order) template.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'm not really undertsanding what happened there with taryron at the end - he was never bound?

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'd agree with all of this. As I've said earlier, the first time around with this material I hadn't really grasped the full extent of how pervasive Mar culture may have been here. I had pictured our Indianesque culture down below Malatra (Dweepam), even, and having spread north. Now I think it may have originated far closer to the Hordelands, like around Guge, or Tabot. That small region just below Tabot used to be called Phutan (its in the Tabot material), and would probably be a great place to put the initial cultural 'outward push'.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Just to note too.... it could be that these various "Lords" are actually something akin to Chosen of the elemental lords or leaders of powerful cults in their names. I note the following

Markustay brought this up the other day
Long before the reign of the First Grand Caliph (which I believe means back before the AQ timeline even begins, about a thousand years ago), the Corsair Domains were called the "Isles of Fear", and were home to "a terrible cult which worshiped an elemental water god called Istishia".

Obviously, I'm leading into the concept that the Lord of Flame would be a cultist/chosen of Kossuth.

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–225 DR Year of the Golden Staff
The Black Cycle of Years ends in Shou Lung with the coronation of Wo Mai, a noble claiming descent from Nung Fu himself. Wo Mai recovers the Emblems of Imperial Authority from the crypts beneath the Imperial City, rallies the armies and other nobles, and crushes the rebellious outlying provinces. Wo Mai becomes the first Emperor Chin of the Kao (High) Dynasty.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I have other comments, but I'm still doing some reading - Incarnum is one of my least-favorite 3e core books, and now I think I recall why. The lore isn't bad, and neither are the races (I just found them a bit unnecessary, until now). Its the art. Its not terrible (its way better than what I could do), it just the stances. Its like every bad comic I've ever seen - the men look heroic, and the females are bent into weird positions that make NO SENSE. Plus, as I said, I found 'yet another magic system' for 3e annoying - its not like us DMs didn't already have 50 splats worth of garbage to remember.

Be that as it may, I hadn't realized how well a lot of that material fits the uE, which is why I am now reading through it again.

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Originally posted by Markustay

And now I just realized something else - Tan Chin - an Imaskari emperor (and thats canon) - created the Dragonwall.

Out of a Celestial Dragon.

Celestial Dragons are part of the Celestial bureaucracy... they're gods.

An Imaskari, capturing a GOD, and turning it into a wall. Hmmmmmmm.... me thinks I found where the scepter went...*
Regardless, we have another clear case of an Imaskari Archwizard completely disrespecting the Celestial Bureaucracy - a group of gods. I can see now why they turned on him.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I would assume that, politics willing, Shou Lung would have rebuilt the Dragonwall in some capacity. It was manned, with towers and guardhouses and whatever else, so it was more than just a passive object they ignored providing them with protection. All those conscripts and soldiers had to do something in the aftermath.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-There was probably a psychological aspect to it, too. It had been there for hundreds of years, giving the empire the feeling of invulnerability from the west (even if that wasn't completely true, as they found out with the Tuigan breach). Suddenly, it's gone? They're open. Gotta do something about that, even if now there's lava, motes, fractures in the earth, etc.

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Originally posted by Markustay

@BadCatMan -

Do you have a list of the critters the Bloodforges can make, or perhaps (even better) a complete list of creatures that appear in the Utter east?


I recall suggesting using the Mystaran Bhut for the Trolls/Trow in the area, because they look a lot like the pic from the VG. However, now that I've just added the Mahasarpa Seven Kingdoms (not to be confused with uE's Five Kingdoms) into the Sempadan region (the fit is awesome, geographically, culturally, lore-wise, etc.), I see they have actual Indian Bhuts, which are true undead. So now I'm thinking of combining the two (that they are the undead from the Mahasarpa material, but they can possess weak-willed creatures, and some of them in the uE region have found the local trolls a particularly easy creature to take control of). Thus, 'possession' isn't listed among their normal abilities, because you'd have to have like a Wis. 5 or less to be susceptible (maybe like a +5 to Wis. savings throw, or a Wis. savings roll with advantage, in 5e). Since they're both known to be savage and enjoy eating the flesh of sentient creatures, I think the trolls don't put much effort into resisting (the Bhut mindset is close enough to theirs for them not to even notice their behavior is any different).

We also came up with three different kinds of Medusae (TRUE Gorgons). Since I plan a DMsGuild booklet for the map, I may want to do a full write-up on my version of them (I've managed to merge the other type of gorgons and that lore with these).

You see, Maeder (male medusae) - being so incredibly rare - have another ability that almost no-one has heard about - they can shape-change into a fearsome, bull-like creature with metallic-looking stone scales. In fact, their fighting abilities are so much better in this form, that they only take their human-like form when around females of their kind.

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Originally posted by Markustay

People often try to figure out what are the 'Five kingdoms' of the Utter East. Four seem obvious, but the last one not so much. They are all wrong, of course. The Five kingdoms of legend fell long ago, even though the name is still used by the Mar and others. Today Koenigheim stands where the Northmen took over one kingdom. Those people are a mix of Northmen and mar culture now. Doegan is similar, except it was the worst of the Ffolk that conquered that land, and they are a mix of Ffolk and Mar. the Ffolk that wanted no part of the raping and pillaging and stealing of land went a bit further north and east, and settled in a natural valley in the Yehimals, and named their new country 'Edenvale'. te mar that lived there already were left in peace, and eventually all were considered full citizens of Edenvale. However, the cultures and people didn't mix as freely as they did elsewhere (where the Mar became little more than slaves), and the Edenvale of today is very much like the Moonshaes. One might even mistake it as such, if one somehow wound up there through magical means, but the mistake would soon become apparent when they happened upon a Mar village, where they kept to the 'old ways'.

Of the remaining realms - although the Parsanic League never fell, through trade and natural cultural osmosis they have become a blend of all the peoples in the region, and even of cultures outside the Utter East. One can even find Bedine, Mulan, Arkauin, and Mujhari (Durpari) peoples here, along with a smattering of folk from just about everywhere on Toril (there is even a group of Mazticans in Tharkar, stranded there after they were rescued from corsair slave ships). And then there is the Venesci hamlet, although its more like a province; it pays tribute to Konigheim to be left in peace. It is still purely Mar, and its the only place in the uE where 'common' is not the common tongue.

There is also the Loxo of Sragadha, who keep to themselves. The Treggi Jungle has a small realm of very strange (Dark) elves. There are the minotaurs of the Sllaviul Mountains, who aren't such bad folk, so long as you don't provoke them. the yakfolk a bit further south are... unpleasant. There is also rumored to be a 'fallen empire' of Mahasarpa (now the Seven kingdoms) to the southeast, beyond Herne's Wood (NE Sempadan), a place of all sorts of beastmen and warlike Mar. The nation of Ulgarth defines the northern border of the Utter East, and is sometimes included as part of it. They, too, had incursions of Ffolk and Northmen (raiding from Doegan and Konigheim, mostly), and the tribal people who once dwelt there are all but forgotten. The people of The Golden Waters are said to be a mix of Mar and Bedine, and call themselves Mujhari, but since the Mar and the Bedine themselves are related, it seems odd to most Mar that these Mujhari do not simply consider themselves Mar.

Last but not least, there is a 'kingdom of Nix' in the mountains and up on the glacier. Their leader is said to be a horrific creature with insectoid features. And there is also the legendary realm of Langdarma, they can only be found through secret ways through the mountains. It is said to be the home of the Vaati - the devas. How these tow realms can both exist in the mountains is beyond most normal folk, but the Yehimals are vast and unforgiving, and two groups of people could live only a few miles apart and never run into each other, if there are no passes between the two.

The entire region is dotted with ruins as well, some that predate the arrival of the Mar (who were smart enough to leave them be). There are some from the time of the Realms of Order, when Tartyron made war on his fellows. And then there are some from the invaders, and the Bloodforge wars that followed. There are even said to be a few ruins dating to ancient Imaskar - their magi were known to build secret refugees far from their empire.


*This footnote really come form the post above:
Since I've now placed the Vaati in Langdarma, I am thinking that Miska the Wolfspider is also a good candidate for our buried 'Big Evil'. I haven't rolled this idea around at all in my brain yet - I just struck me while I was typing the above. And that is, if you don't want to use Ravana and his raksasha, because I wouldn't place both there.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Markustay, do you have any sources for the above. Not doubting it, just wondering WHERE the lore came from. For instance, I get that this kingdom of nix is from blood and magic, and from what I read on the wiki... it sounds like its some kingdom of goblinoids???... but then you're mentioning an insectoid leader (which made my brain immediately think those insectoid devils in the cold area of hell)...

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The expansion of the empire is in part driven by the yak-men’s relentless search for sacrifices, for they constantly make offerings to their god in the “manner elemental”: these offerings are either burned, drowned, buried alive, or thrown off a mountaintop, depending on which elemental form is being observed. Some say that these sacrifices allow yak-men temporary access to elemental magic; others claim that the sacrifices merely strengthen the Forgotten God’s hold over his followers.

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Although Khelben is aware of the activities of Mordenkainen and the Circle of Five, he tends to steer his own course. He has met the great arch-mage Mordenkainen on three separate occasions in the company of his grandsire. He was fairly close friends with Tenser before the Greyhawk Wars, although they were only in infrequent contact. Although he harbors a fierce hatred for Rary the Traitor, he feels it is not his place to seek revenge.
Although he does not worship Oerth's gods of magic, Khelben is close friends with Ravel Dasinder, Patriarch of Boccob, and he knows many priests of the All-Seeing One active in the city of Greyhawk.
Among the elves, Khelben is well known to many members of the Knights of Luna, and counts Prince Brightflame, also known as Melf, as one of his favorite individuals despite the differences in their temperment.
Khelben Ravencloak serves as the eyes and ears of his grandfather, Khelben the Elder, on Oerth and speaks with him periodically. He has also been contacted by Elminster and others of Mystra's Chosen on rare occasions.

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Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT:
This was in response to your post above that one - you type faster than me. I'll get back to respond to this last one in a little bit.


Its a 'Sea gate', and I listed it in my one CKC article.

It HAS to be a Sea Gate, because the Ffolk and Northemn arrived by ship.

I've spread their arrival further along the timeline, with the MAJOR incursion being the one mentioned in the GHotR (two very large fleets - bent on destroying each other - were involved). The Gate is large, and permanent, but it only opens intermittently, during very powerful storms (electricity gets it going). It was also built by the Batrachi, by the way (ALL the Sea Gates were).

I like the idea of someone hooking another portal into the network at Shadulaur. I think that was part of the imaskari network (so connects to the mucklestones, and the other end also reconnects to a portal on one of the northern islands - thats how the Rus came over). We came to a lot of the same conclusions as you, back when we did the first Utter east thread - the Arkauins (really the Rus/Northmen) came south and started a lot of crap, and then got chased all over the place ('raiders' get away with what they do by staying mobile).

I need to post some stuff I think you'll find VERY interesting concerning Yakiria (canon stuff). They also tie into Nog and Kador a little bit, and the 'Savage Gods' of Zakhara (which I think you've used elsewhere). Interesting stuff - I don't know why I never read the whole article before (I focused on the geography bits previously). They also wrote it in such a way so that you could also use all the info in Birthright/Cerilia, which is pretty cool (I like the idea of adding 'Realms Lords' to all these Mar regions).

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Originally posted by Markustay

From the Dragon #241 article on the Yakmen:

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The expansion of the empire is in part driven by the yak-men’s relentless search for sacrifices, for they constantly make offerings to their god in the “manner elemental”: these offerings are either burned, drowned, buried alive, or thrown off a mountaintop, depending on which elemental form is being observed. Some say that these sacrifices allow yak-men temporary access to elemental magic; others claim that the sacrifices merely strengthen the Forgotten God’s hold over his followers.

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So with all the other 'elemental' stuff we got going on, we got this righ straight south of the Ue (and one could even argue that Yakiria is IN the Utter East. At least part of it, anyway).

And a 'Faceless God'? I am going to go so full-blown GoT with that one.

They also make great use of Marrashi* as aeriel troops, and the 'princess' of the Marrashi is the consort of the Yakman emperor. VERY interesting stuff. Its like the two races are connected.

EDIT:
Oh, and legend has it that the main city (Imperial capitol) of Nathong used to be a flying city, but it hasn't moved off of its mountain top in centuries. The Yakmen supposedly send out spies EVERWHERE - Kara-Tur and Faerûn are both mentioned. Plus, we had that Yakwoman (or would it be a female Yakmen?) actions as ambassador to Waterdeep!

Speaking of which... I did my usual ADD thing while looking for this article, and wound-up going through the whole issue od The Dragon. There is a Greyhawk article in there that most here wouldn't bother with... and it contained a letter from Khelben to Mordenkainen. A rather friendly, almost familial letter, in fact. Khelben was even updating him on 'local politics' (and just WHY would Mordenkainen care about Waterdeep politics? Hmmmmmm?)

It appears one of my oldest theories may actually be on the money. Mordenkainen IS the real Khelben Arunson {because canonically, ours is 'an imposter').

EDIT2:
Now that I just put links to pics of Marrishi (because I myself had to go find what they looked like), am I the only one who thinks that gnolls would consider them 'angels'.

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