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Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmmm, and IF this is the case, perhaps basal golems are in fact spirits just like telthors. Perhaps the bloodforge actually transfers spirit energy from the spirit world to a created body that actually is incorporeal/ghostly (somewhat like a weaveghost.... blue even). Also, the idea of the creating of clerics, paladins, rangers, druids, etc.... could again be something which makes a "basal golem" much more fleshy and imprints an ancestor spirit into the body.... being rebirthed into a new body instantaneously rather than being born naturally. This act may very well be seen as sacrilegious by the people of the culture, and very "chaotic" and a breaking of the "natural order". Thus why Tartyron is named as he is as a "Lord of Chaos" because maybe he as a great spirit created bloodforges to try and use spirits from the spirit world to conquer "the real world".

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'm not going to worry about mechanics for now, and certainly not 3e mechanics. My assumption here is that mages of the south are all sorcerers, of one stripe or another.

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Originally posted by Markustay

The Lords of the Elemental Realms (Parsanic League) were probably Mages. It specifically says Tartyron was one of them,

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Originally posted by Markustay

Control of the Bloodforges: Obviously, I misremembered about the 'pearls of power', or rather, I might be remembering how we spun them, way back when. What did the Pearl of Power DO in the game again? I don't believe the VG ever stated how the Bloodforges and golems were controlled; the game wouldn't have needed to... but we do. If it goes by 'owner', whatdefies that? the last person who touched the Forge? That would be a serious drawback to using them (on the other hand, it would be one way to nerf such an uber-powerful artifact). It could be why these guys 9the ones who all used the Bloodforges) only relied on created troops, rather than 'real' ones - one of your men could steal your thunder just by touching the Forge.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ah, I'm very hesitant to say he is some known demon lord (example Pazuzu). I'd be more inclined to make him some kind of lesser primordial that was imprisoned.

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Originally posted by Markustay

As far as them being the Parsanic League of today - like I said, this was all a LONG time ago, and if we tweak the (VG) history so that both versions are somewhat correct, The Lords of Order controlled that region, and then Tartyron took it over (killing THOSE Lords of Order, years {centuries?} BEFORE the campaign involving him even begins). The Lords of Order we know (from the VG) are a second group that was around when Tartyron reared his ugly head again. Thus, we already have at least two 'eras' for that Realm, and after the campaign with Tartyron, we can say that at least one of them was killed (probably the earth guy, because of the VG lore), and the other two 'retired'.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Considering the lore revolving around Tartyron, we know there had to be at least two separate time periods of 'Bloodforge wars'.

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Originally posted by Markustay

And none of that has anything to do with the trapped 'cosmic horror' I am picturing below the Utter East = perhaps even more than one (I am thinking one 'Elder Evil' and a couple of 'lesser primordials'). Pazuzu may have been aware of them (I'm sure he was), and he may have even pointed-out the ancient, buried capstone (Bloodforge) to tartron, just to get him to move it, and that would release the 'antideluvian horrors'.

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Originally posted by Markustay

There was also that monster realm up on the glacier there - what was that guy's name? Could he have been another fiend-lord? did he seem powerful enough to be some sort of 'ancient evil'?

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Originally posted by Markustay

I am now seeing the Kao (ancient Ang-Mar empire) being much more monolithic and pervasive then I had ever dreamed before. They were definitely in the Larang Valleys (Tempat Larang, etc), but apparently they had crossed the Yehimals and were into the Taan and Ue regions as well. Hell, I may not even need the Zakharans if I have psuedo-Indians to work with (they cam much later anyway). The Ang spread north from the Dweepam (lower K-T) region, and eventually encounter the Fey (Kami, Yaksha), and befriend them, and together (spiritfolk) they build the beginnings of the Imaskari civilization. There were not many Fey left - most had left for the feywild (they ad their own 'Retreat', similar to the elves) when the Ang were just primitive savages. The Fey name the humans 'Mar', which is a strange yet affectionate term similar to 'special' here on Earth (they consider humans 'deformed', and somewhat ugly, but also pity them). One offshoot of the resultant spiritfolk are the Maraloi of the Ama basin. So the Kao (Ang-Mar) empire would already have been 'ancient and decadent' before Imaskar was even a thing.

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Originally posted by BadCatMan

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'm not going to worry about mechanics for now, and certainly not 3e mechanics. My assumption here is that mages of the south are all sorcerers, of one stripe or another.

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Well, not game mechanics, but the "how to bloodforges even work?" mechanics.

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Originally posted by Markustay

The Lords of the Elemental Realms (Parsanic League) were probably Mages. It specifically says Tartyron was one of them,

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Not necessarily. "Bloodforge mage" was a term I had to adopt for someone who commands a bloodforge. The game often says bloodforges are used by mages, and I determined one needed to be a mage to use them. But what is a "mage" anyway? However, it might be possible for a ruler to have a bloodforge mage in their employ. In any case, it's more an abstraction for game characters who command bloodforged armies. It's a use of magic that doesn't rely on conventional wizardry, so a "mage" here isn't someone we'd recognise as a mage

On the other hand, everyone who's anyone in the Realms is a spellcaster, so...

The lords are already called the Circle of Order, so there's no need to change that name. (The Free Cities of Parsanic may have just arisen later.)

As for their kind of elementalism... Hmm, the Lord of Lands wears a green robe, a wreath, and carries a stick. I'm tempted to call the Lord of Lands a druid, based on his appearance, though he might be a nature-focused mage. He's less earthy, more perhaps wood. So, yeah, they could well have a different elemental system, but then we'd need a fifth character, and there are only four known.

The Lord of Flame is a guy in red plate armour with a sword, so he's some form of warrior. Though they dress to their roles, they look too human to me. I'm inclined to think of them as long-lived/immortal human spellcasters (and a realm of "Immortals" is mentioned later), similar to the leaders of Mezro in Chult.

Coincidentally, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms mentions, for the gods of Malatra, the Lords of Creation, who were "adopted from a southwestern culture beyond the bounds of Kara-Tur". While the whole of southern Kara-Tur is utterly unexplored and southwest of Malatra, it's still within Kara-Tur. As we discussed the first time, the Sempadan Forest and the Utter East (or perhaps some place in northern Zakhara) are the most likely candidates for their origin. That their "believers are among the most arbitrary and authoritarian to be found in the Malatra jungles" also suggests a Circle of Order.

Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms recommends using the Indian deities, but I'm not sure this is necessary; it's a suggestion rather than a fact, just like Mahasarpa was a suggested fill-in for the Utter East and Sempadan, even though it's from Rokugan. It only needs something similar. Stray gods of the southeast Faerūn and Zakhara could be plugged in here: Zionil (Gond) in place of Tvashtri, for example, and the holy water buffalo Yampa who carried the Padhra.

As for their sometimes western dress, they could have changed or the events of the game are a Faerūnised depiction of the eastern-like events that should have happened.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Control of the Bloodforges: Obviously, I misremembered about the 'pearls of power', or rather, I might be remembering how we spun them, way back when. What did the Pearl of Power DO in the game again? I don't believe the VG ever stated how the Bloodforges and golems were controlled; the game wouldn't have needed to... but we do. If it goes by 'owner', whatdefies that? the last person who touched the Forge? That would be a serious drawback to using them (on the other hand, it would be one way to nerf such an uber-powerful artifact). It could be why these guys 9the ones who all used the Bloodforges) only relied on created troops, rather than 'real' ones - one of your men could steal your thunder just by touching the Forge.

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The Pearl of Power was magical pearl, I quote, "the Pearl of Power which, according to legend, could bring life to arcane inventions" and was used to activate the Juggernaut construct. It makes a construct go, basically, but since constructs are ten-a-penny in D&D and even in B&M, it should be rather more. The story also warns "For the Pearl held a curse to whomever did bear it. A curse of war and calamity born from greed." Which is kind of like what happened when Bloodforges were discovered in Faces of Deception and Grand History accounts.

As for operating a bloodforge and commanding basal golem armies, the game actually did hint at this in the Demo game readme story I quoted earlier, and as I described in the wiki articles. One needs to be a mage of some kind, to have "mastered" the bloodforge (whether become an expert in its use or exerted mental control over it, I don't know). The bloodforge is placed in a certain location (only a few specific sites on any given map) in suitable terrain (we discussed leylines and sacred sites the first time around).

Oddly, the bloodforge mages don't stand on the battlefield, but fly over it, issuing commands to their armies using a marble "oracle" invented by the Great Mage (the Sun Tzu of bloodforge warfare, apparently). That of course just describes the in-game interface and perspective.

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Originally posted by BadCatMan

Nothing says they were killed, but nothing says they weren't either. The Circle of Order aren't a second group, they're the original rulers of the Utter East.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Now, if Tartyron IS still buried/trapped there, he may even be one of the 'lesser evils'. I think whatever deal he made turned him into a demon (it wouldn't be the first time a mortal became a fiend). In fact, maybe he released one evil into the world (I haven't even conjectured who/what that may have been - who was that demon that was playing with the Ilythiir Dark Elves? Maybe him?), and after he was defeated, he took that fiend's place in its former prison, sealed behind a Bloodforge himself.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I am also going to bring in the Dark Elves, who would have 'changed' at -10K DR, and upset the 'balance of power' in the region. The Dark Elves (or rather, just plain 'elves' in the new 4e/5e nomenclature) would have been the last group left from the original Fey inhabitants. In fact, these pre-descent elves may have even had Eladrin among them (The Maviddi were Dark Eladrin?), and it would have been mostly these 'fey' that began crossbreeding with the Ang/Mar people. Once the descent curse hit, they had to get out of the sunlight, and built vast 'anthill like' colonies (Tsaparang fortress), before finally disappearing from the world of men.

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Originally posted by Markustay

There was also that monster realm up on the glacier there - what was that guy's name? Could he have been another fiend-lord? did he seem powerful enough to be some sort of 'ancient evil'?

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Markustay

I am also going to bring in the Dark Elves, who would have 'changed' at -10K DR, and upset the 'balance of power' in the region. The Dark Elves (or rather, just plain 'elves' in the new 4e/5e nomenclature) would have been the last group left from the original Fey inhabitants. In fact, these pre-descent elves may have even had Eladrin among them (The Maviddi were Dark Eladrin?), and it would have been mostly these 'fey' that began crossbreeding with the Ang/Mar people. Once the descent curse hit, they had to get out of the sunlight, and built vast 'anthill like' colonies (Tsaparang fortress), before finally disappearing from the world of men.

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-The Dark Elves were one of the earlier Elven groups to arrive from the Plane of Faerie to Toril, not the last. When Sharlario and Durothil left Tintageer, Dark Elves had already come and had an advanced settlement in Atorrnash.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

bear in mind the ACTUAL definition of antediluvian. I know you're thinking like I do, and the second you hear antediluvian your mind goes "Elder Gods" and "Cthulhu". But it actually means a very ancient being/thing, so a simple primordial or "spirit being" CAN be antediluvian. Not that it has to be, and in fact there may be multiple buried things in this area of the world.... just like Eltab was buried in Eltabbar and there's demoncysts throughout the unapproachable east and Old Empires.


Definition of antediluvian
1:of or relating to the period before the flood described in the Bible
2
a : made, evolved, or developed a long time ago - ex. an antediluvian automobile - ex. that antediluvian relic known as a slide rule
b : extremely primitive or outmoded - ex. an antediluvian prejudice - ex. antediluvian in his politics

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Originally posted by Markustay

Tartyron wasn't 'bound' the first time? Thats where I may be getting confused. The campaign starts off talking about 'The Past' - about how he was bound by the Lords of Order. I was think he was bound twice, but now I realize he simply turned on them the first time, LOST, ad then was bound. Some time later (centuries?), the campaign time period takes place, and he escapes his prison. Since the 'Lords of Order' are NOT around anymore during the campaign (else, why aren't they helping you? Or are they?), I think by the time of the Bloodforge Wars (in the GHotR) they were no longer a thing. I am just not seeing him as the 'antideluvian horror' the GHotR speaks of, though.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Are you implying they are immortal Because then you may be reading far more into it then I am.

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Tiger's Nest
Hidden on the southern slopes of the A-Ling Shan, this old fortress exists where none should be — across the impassable Jumpa Chasm on the cliffs of the untracked Yehimal. In short, there is no way to reach the Tiger’s Nest or to have built it where it stands, short of magic. This is, of course, precisely how the Tiger’s Nest was built.
Ages past, the Tiger’s Nest was an independent monastery. The monks and priests who dwelt there were good, and abhorred the excesses and cruelties of the Imaskari Empire. From their stronghold, the priests did all they could to defy the might of the ancient wizards, countering evil magic with powerful clerical spells. Carefully concealing the location of their fortress, they aided the peasants and thwarted the attempts of the Imaskari governors. The priests became famous as the Invisible Tigers and their fortress became known as the Tiger’s Nest.
In the end, Imaskari fell, though the efforts of the Tiger’s Nest had little to do with it. For a time, it seemed that the defeat of the Imaskari would spell the doom of the Invisible Tigers. Without an
enemy to rail against, many of the priests abandoned the fortress to carry on their good works elsewhere.
Not all left. A handful remained behind to perfect their arts. These devoted few purged their lives of all corruptive influences — meat, tea, talk, women, eventually even breathing were forbidden. Somehow, on their faith alone, the Invisible Tigers survived.
Now these former priests have become more than human. Their extreme existence has given them incredible powers. Completely dedicated to the struggle against evil, the Invisible Tigers still venture
from the fortress to carry on the struggle.

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Originally posted by BadCatMan

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Originally posted by Markustay

Tartyron wasn't 'bound' the first time? Thats where I may be getting confused. The campaign starts off talking about 'The Past' - about how he was bound by the Lords of Order. I was think he was bound twice, but now I realize he simply turned on them the first time, LOST, ad then was bound. Some time later (centuries?), the campaign time period takes place, and he escapes his prison. Since the 'Lords of Order' are NOT around anymore during the campaign (else, why aren't they helping you? Or are they?), I think by the time of the Bloodforge Wars (in the GHotR) they were no longer a thing. I am just not seeing him as the 'antideluvian horror' the GHotR speaks of, though.

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You're way confused. First off, in each story in the game, you have the option of playing one side or the other, usually good guys or the bad guys. Hence every story has two campaigns, and my wiki articles are usually divided to cover them separately. In the "Tartyron Unbound" story, you can play either as the Circle of Order or as Tartyron. The game says in the intro "And from this turmoil there arose primitive nations. When the lords of order ascended to govern east of the Great Sea," so they were there at the beginning in prehistory. And it's surely the same lords of the Circle of Order who appear in the campaign's timeframe some time later; the text of the game certainly implies it.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Are you implying they are immortal Because then you may be reading far more into it then I am.

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I am indeed implying, but not reading anything more than the facts of the lore. What's more, I've realised that the Lord of Flame and the Lady of Tides, at least, are not only undying, but undead. Bear with me. When you start a mission, you're given victory and defeat conditions, accompanied by respectively happy and sad/angry/upset versions of your character's portrait. For all characters in the game, this doesn't change the appearance much, and they're still alive in the image. Except for the Lord of Flame and the Lady of Tides, who, in their defeat, are revealed as apparently undead beings: emaciated, grey skin, snaggle-toothed, yellow glowing eyes. (The Lord of Lands remains unchanged, oddly, he's probably better preserved.) These are surely their true forms. They might be archliches or the like.

These playthrough videos show the animations for the Circle of Order campaign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVo_3h6vCKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nmKtjlI0bo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3afBTXRwMsI

So, yeah, undead. Things just get weirder. These are meant to be the righteous orderly good guys, by the way. But then, we've already seen good, or at least non-evil use of undead in Aelric the Avenger's campaign in Doegan. Utter East undead are evidently not considered evil, which puts the idea of rampaging undead hordes in potentially a different light.

The later random missions of the Legendary Campaign don't mention the lords of the Circle of Order (but then, none of them call back to the prior campaigns), so it's very possible they were deposed or destroyed in the war with Tartyron, and petty tyrants arise in their place, and the Realm of Lands fragments into what we later know as the Free Cities of Parsanic. They were probably already much reduced in the Ffolk and Northman colonisation/conquest.

In any case, meet the lovely Lady of Tides and her Realm of Tides with its exotic sunken pyramids:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_of_Tides
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Realm_of_Tides

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Originally posted by Markustay

I am having a HARD time merging the Vedic-pantheon thing we have going on (which is a GREAT fit) with these guys being undead. How about 'Undying' instead? We have evidence of just such a thing nearby -

Canon from The Horde boxed set. They are ascetics, an old concept that goes back to the 2e Legends & Lore in D&D; they are sort of like mystic monks, so they can attain that final level of 'perfect body' and be Immortal. They are in the section of the Indian Mythos, BTW, so they are PERFECT for what we are doing here. As Undying, they are immortal, however they would still show outward signs of aging, albeit slowly. After a couple of thousand years, they'd look like undead because of the aging, but they wouldn't actually BE undead.

'Undying' itself was introduced in 3e Eberron - it was basically a way of having something that seemed very much like undead but wasn't actually undead (because mechanics - 3e also got rid of the concept of 'undead through positive energy', which mummies used to be). So they brought back the idea of undead that didn't have the negative-energy connection, by calling them Undying. Splitting hairs, I know, but it makes far more sense for the Vedic connections we are trying to establish here for them. Its also something that is prevalent in a lot of Asian folklore (including our own K-T lore).

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Originally posted by sleyvas

This puts the concept of "spirits" that occupy bodies into play. Maybe these undead are simply ancestor spirits "possessing" recently dead bodies to come back and protect their homelands

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Originally posted by Markustay

And I think we need to make the Earth Guy a casualty, for no other reason then we need to paint Tartyron as being pretty damn evil - he was friends with these people before he turned on them. It (your Wiki entry) says that he attacked Earth first, so I have to assume that was his intial 'sneak attack', and that would be the best place to stick our major casualty (because in RL, people actually die - this ain't no Shonen Jump anime ).

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Originally posted by BadCatMan

Thomas M Costa created an unofficial 3.x update of the ascetic, as a prestige class called the roushi or ascetic, with a specific link to the Utter East.
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html
This ascetic doesn't attain true immortality, however, but does stop ageing, or suffering the effects of ageing.

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Originally posted by BadCatMan

BTW, The Horde CS, page 150, had this to be say about the Utter East: "Ulgarth and the lands south
are rumored to be strange regions, even more fantastic than the wonderful lands of the North. Valleys filled with gems, bodiless wizards, gods who live as men, and islands that sink and rise
again."

These may be garbled travellers' tales that predate any of this lore (and notably also predate Al Qadim, so it's not talking about Zakhara), but let's review. The "islands that sink and rise again" is surely the "floating islands" (mentioned in advertising for B&M) of the Realm of Tides; "gods who live as men" fits our idea of undying semi-divine Circle of Order / Lords of Creation, as well as the Sannyasi in Langdarma in Faces of Deception, both dwelling in the world among men. "Bodiless wizards" fits sleyvas's idea of possessing spirits.

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Originally posted by BadCatMan

Law versus Chaos is getting to be quite a theme in the early Utter East, between the Circle of Order and the lawful Lords of Creation, as well as the Sannyasi (a LG movanic deva) of Langdarma and the devils in Faces of Deception, on the one hand, and, um, Tartyron, Lord of Chaos, on the other. It's almost Moorcockian. And Good versus Evil is already well represented in the rest of the Realms.

A lack of focus on Good versus Evil permits undead to be treated neutrally. I'm reminded of Tantric practitioners that muck about with corpses on charnel grounds to unlearn aversions.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'd agree with all of this. As I've said earlier, the first time around with this material I hadn't really grasped the full extent of how pervasive Mar culture may have been here. I had pictured our Indianesque culture down below Malatra (Dweepam), even, and having spread north. Now I think it may have originated far closer to the Hordelands, like around Guge, or Tabot. That small region just below Tabot used to be called Phutan (its in the Tabot material), and would probably be a great place to put the initial cultural 'outward push'.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Telos is too far away to connect to the Ue - I'd rather give them their own primordial. Or maybe just Ravana is good enough (if we spin him as an obyrith like I want). I have some good, old lore I wrote about the mountains and the Raksasha a long time ago - I have to rewrite all that (I even bring the Arcane {Mecane} into the mix). Then maybe a couple of other powerful demon lords, but not archfiends. One 'big bad', and maybe a couple of lieutenants (not every Bloodforge should have something sealed-away behind it - a couple should still be left hidden somewhere that aren't 'busy'). In fact, Redfang should probably be a lieutenant that didn't get 'locked away' (or maybe he escaped during the last BF War). I suppose Ysdar(?) can be another, once I know more about him, but not everything in the uE needs to be connected to the Forges.

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