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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 16:43:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"Create a demand for more magical items."
I'd never thought of Mystra being a totalitarian sort of goddess. Destroying magical items and constructs (and perhaps also burning magical scrolls and spellbooks) limits supply and creates demand. Encourages more cycles of magical research and magical construction projects. Employs more mages. Stimulates the magical economy with higher prices. Also stimulates the nonmagical economy with increased demand for scribes and paper and glassware and talismongers and skilled tradesmen/craftsmen capable of producing masterpieces. Even stimulates the "undereconomy" with increased need for the special services of rogues and thieves of any kind able to procure particular difficult-to-find materials through "other" channels.
Admittedly a reductio ad absurdum thought exercise. But still ... a Mystra-sanctioned "scorched magic" policy offers some interesting insights. We have "Luddites" who (at least originally) opposed technology based on how the endless progress of automation displaces workers and jobs. I wonder if "Anti-Mystrans" ("Demystics", "Unweavers"?) would oppose magical innovations which disrupt their (unskilled, uneducated) economies?
I can't imagine *any* time a true Mystran would want to destroy magic. Although, to be sure, there are plenty of magics better left unknown and unused by mortals (and perhaps gods alike) which Mystrans might secret away in all sorts of hidden or protected places in (or "near") the Realms ... much like elves do, lol. Are there catacombs or vaults filled with terrible magical secrets under every Mystran Temple in every city in Cormyr?
Remember that Mystra is also eponymously a goddess of Mystery. Secrets. Arcane knowledge. Some overlap with Leira and Oghma, perhaps, but then ... maybe they don't even know The Lady has secrets, lol.
yeah, I can see that need. However, to play devil's advocate for a second, if some stuff is already created, then they can focus on creating something ELSE. Comparing it to owning a house... if my house is paid for, I can look into making a shed and a swimming pool, buying a new lawn mower and a truck with a trailer. But, if someone burns down my house, I have to recreate it again before I can focus on any of those side projects again.
That being said, maybe not destroying furnaces.... maybe taking them away and either somehow converting their magic (maybe it can be converted to a cleanup tool for wild magic areas) OR putting them in a hidden place for those times when they truly DO have to destroy a magic item in order to save magic (maybe some intelligent almost artifact level item whose goal is to destroy magic users and magic items... which becomes almost poetic..... hmmm, throw entropy into a furnace, which one wins?). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 18:24:00
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I understand that Spelljammer was something of a first attempt eventually supplanted by Planescape. (And that both essentially became pariahs in later editions, handwaved away into depths of stuffy and convoluted forgotten old lore. Although Spelljammer seems to enjoy brief resurgences and some longevity because, I think, flying ships are more fantastically evocative than yet-another-fiend spawned from yet-another-hellish otherworldly place. Plus as weird and unwieldy as Spelljammer could be, it didn't suffer from the bizarre inconsistency that is Sigil.)
And Spelljammer coexisted with Planescape, for a while. But still, I always thought it odd that so few artifacts originated from "unknown" places. They're usually firmly anchored in the histories of the well-known "Triad" worlds, Realmspace and Greyspace and Krynnspace. A few even originate from impossibly distant Athas. Or (at least in later editions) from "known" planes like the Feywild and Shadowfell. On one hand this seems logical: spelljamming vessels would interact with places and things known to spelljamming vessels. But on the other hand it seems improbable: surely the countless faiths and powers and magics of the nearly-infinite planes must have produced half an eternity's worth of magical artifacts and surely some number of these must have found their way into each "known" worlds? I'd expect at least a few (weapon) artifacts from the fiendish Blood War to be found in Realmspace, for example, let alone all sorts of insanely overpowered religious relics associated with Faerunian (and even foreign or failed) powers. Claiming overgods (like Ao) somehow prevent or limit this extraplanar pollution/inflation seems like a cheap out.
There should be many more artifacts from the Outer Planes floating around Spelljammer, along with artifurnaces crafted to draw power from them. Imagine the hated neogi or illithids or beholders encountering spelljamming vessels powered by incomprehensibly alien artifacts spawned in some Cthulhu Far Realm, lol, or even just "ordinary" demonic things spawned in the monstrously hateful depths of the Abyss, and imagine what havoc such terrifying artifacts might cause (or even how they'd just transform their ships and crews) if improperly contained. Planescape describes Primes destroyed by invasion of planar forces, Spelljammer describes no such thing ever occurring. All Spelljammer describes is one sphere broken by other causes, one or a few spheres drifted beyond reach, and a whole lot of (almost parasitic) reliance on "Triad" histories. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Sep 2017 18:32:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 19:00:49
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Yeah, though I'm not interested in writing up 5e spelljammer ruleset... because god knows I have enough to write plus a personal life, job, and I'm looking to build a new house.... its interesting still to discuss the comparisons. I'm not quite sure how to include this material without writing something up of the rules too, just to adapt them to 5e. But at the same time, I'm introducing a LOT of old concepts and not spelling out their rules either (or pointing people to rules written by other folk on DMs Guild).
I too feel like spelljammer was a more interesting idea for planar travel than planescape. I will note a lot of folks have basically wanted to convert spelljamming to "astral jamming". The portals everywhere thing in planescape is just unimaginative... not saying it can't be true... its just not as "interesting". I will say that the one part of spelljammer that I find unappealing is the phlogiston's explosive nature (I also get that this nature is only because they were trying to reuse an 18th century name to call this sea in which the prime crystal spheres floated, and that "phlogiston" is simply the "material" that things absorb and then give off when they burn).
I do like the idea that you enter the phlogiston and you can't even remotely access the outer planes or the inner planes and that even things like extradimensional spaces fall apart though. Its the back door to the universe that no one was ever supposed to know about. It makes me think that the path to the Far Realm and the place where vestiges go should have something to do with the phlogiston. Maybe they are crystal spheres... maybe they are something else entirely. Maybe even if the people of the crystal spheres approached these places their minds couldn't comprehend the pathway even. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 19:42:00
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As I've said repeatedly, I think a good 'marriage' of PLanescape and Spelljammer is needed, because the two aren't really compatible, in that 'space travel' is pointless when you can just snap your fingers and get somewhere else. The existence of PS negates the usefulness of Arcane Space.
So we should just say that 'Wildspace' is the Border Ethereal, which you enter as an SJ ship/Helm leaves the atmosphere, and the 'Phlogiston' is just the Deep Ethereal - that 'endless void' that exists between the 'worlds' (settings/Spheres). Thus, SJ becomes a subset of PS, just as everything should be (with FR being the 'hub' of The Prime Material, in much the same way that the Outlands is the hub of the Great Wheel). It also helps explain why we can have BOTH 'normal outer space' (which we do - [i]Expedition to the Barrier Peaks[i] demonstrates that normal, techno-space also exists), and have 'magical Space', where you can have flying ships and pirates. You can't disregard REALITY because we KNOW that exists (well... not really... but this is not the place to wax maudlin philosophical). The only way it makes sense is if we have normal (realistic) spaceships capable of flying around in normal (Prime Material) space, and the SJ stuff in its own 'space'.
Which means you should be able to approach the Great Wheel from (SJ) Space, and how cool is that?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2017 19:45:33 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 20:48:44
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The upside on Spelljammer is that you need a flying ship (very fantastic idea!) and some kind of special magical "helm" to make it work. The first downside of this is fixation on the ship itself, detailed floor plans, exacting descriptions of weaponry and defenses and every storage closet and table and toilet. The other downside is the long voyage, detailed logistical planning, packing provisions and supplies, even worrying about necessities like breathable air. So the long voyage was always a somewhat central theme in spelljamming "adventures", and sadly, such long voyages always become dull and dreary, filled with tediously repetitive and seriously ordinary flavours of routine day-to-day boredom - unless "excited" through combat encounters, threats, challenges, accidents, or emergencies. The spelljamming vessel was your home, your base, your war wagon, the place where you keep all your stuff, packed full of all your carefully counted crates of oranges and grain, a fixed confined space (and fixed group of NPCs) you always looked forward to getting away from while visiting any "port" you could find.
So Spelljammer was about adventure - as it was encountered during and between long journeys.
The upside and downside on Planescape was that you travelled - through "portals" or other convenient (and often vaguely-defined) mechanisms - fairly rapidly and directly to your destination. Straight into the adventure, or the battle, or whatever. Even from one place to another along a journey which was always novel enough to be an adventure in itself. No massive vehicle, no precious "helm", maybe just a "key" (a physical token/object or command word or song lyric or emotion or gesture or expression or idea or whatever) which would "unlock" access between wherever you were and wherever you needed to be. The nature of the planes themselves could confound travellers in unexpected ways, survival was often more about improvisation and adaptation than about preparation, every destination and every adventure could impose entirely new rules of "nature" or "physics" or D&D itself. And monsters of any kind, gods, angels, devils, demons, humans, nonhumans, and every possible blending of them all.
So Planescape was about adventure - but used (cheap) gimmicks to bypass or to focus upon the journey when desired.
Planescape had a sizeable pile of dedicated products while Spelljammer had only a handful of dedicated products plus an endless scattering across other products. The earliest Spelljammer stuff was quite "amateurish" and low quality (obviously a board game inexpertly bolted onto D&D) but it quickly evolved into a deeply-researched and interlinked body of quality lore with hooks into all the other major settings of the (mid-2E) era. Planescape started off as a more refined product with a distinctive style, and grew slowly but steadily, but after a while it somehow lost momentum and started going through the motions of publishing planar splatbooks, one for each plane, one for each group of things, one of each everything, with each new product becaming less creative and more locked into "compatibility" with all previous planeslore, it buried itself under success.
I've always perceived the Phlogiston between spheres as being a "layer" of the Astral between planes. They differ in some details and overlap in many details, but more importantly, they are both described as being something like the "backstage" of the cosmos, the place-between-places which technically "shouldn't" (but certainly does) exist, they both present very much the same possibilities (and hazards) on adventures/encounters and they both serve essentially identical narrative functions (varying primarily not in their particular properties but in the duration one must spend travelling through them). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Sep 2017 21:14:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 20:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As I've said repeatedly, I think a good 'marriage' of PLanescape and Spelljammer is needed, because the two aren't really compatible, in that 'space travel' is pointless when you can just snap your fingers and get somewhere else. The existence of PS negates the usefulness of Arcane Space.
On this, I disagree. Spelljammer acts as another frontier for exploration, and for some people space is going to be a lot more appealing than the planes (I obviously fall into that category). Spelljammer lets you experience the transit between two points, which is also of great appeal to some people -- the old line about the journey being better than the destination. Spelljammer also allows for mass transit of people and cargo, which Planescape doesn't do, and spelljamming doesn't require a high-level mage to get anywhere. Spelljamming is also better for exploring and cartography, since you can get some altitude and see everything.
Obviously, though, it's all going to come down to individual preference. I'm growing to like Planescape now, but Spelljammer was my first love of TSR settings -- I was way gung ho for it long before I paid any real attention to the Realms.
I think the biggest problems with the Spelljammer setting were that people just couldn't divorce real space travel from fantasy space travel, even though concepts like giant flying lizards and wiggling your fingers to make someone blow up are somehow perfectly acceptable, and that the designers either didn't think thru -- or for some reason didn't address -- the impact spelljamming could have on a groundling civilization. Planescape neatly avoids both issues.
There was also a failure to coordinate with Spelljammer and everything else (including, sometimes, other Spelljammer products), and The Astromundi Cluster and Krynnspace were both horrible products that stunk on ice. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Sep 2017 20:54:21 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 21:36:17
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Huh. And I'd thought my "first love" TSR setting was the Realms, though I found the Realms too contrived and fickle and inconsistent (and fey-infested) so I moved onto Planescape. Yet I find myself drawn increasingly towards Spelljammer as time goes by (though, yes, it is very hard to be forgiving of the extremely low production quality for formative SJ products, lol).
I think the "failure to coordinate with Spelljammer and everything else" was part of the SJ's beginnings. Things were clearly far better coordinated and consistent (within and without the product line) in later SJ products.
My understanding of the proverbial Journey-vs-Destination argument has evolved. The very best (Planescape) adventures I've ever played were in fact centered prominently around the Journey. It's nice to get to the Destination - perform the chore or fix the break or kill the pest or fetch the maguffin - ignore the mundane irrelevancies and distractions of the Journey and get right into the meat-and-potatoes "action" you came for. But the Journey adds variety. Too many Destinations too closely packed together become tedious and boring in their own ways, lol. One must smell the roses and smell the exhaust fumes (and get enough red herring in the diet) to remain healthy as an adventurer.
Spelljamming is definitely better for cartography and navigation and broad altitude perspective. Fixed maps and perspectives on the planes are often meaningless and ephemeral, sometimes there's just no better path than what you find while stumbling through murky uncertainties, lol.
Not really sure what good mass transit of cargo serves. Vast armies and legions constantly move across and between planes, bringing things from wherever they came, taking things to wherever they go. Trans-planar trade thrives everywhere you go but it necessarily prefers the exchange of objects or information which is portable, it dispenses of the need for intermediaries like heavy gold or for abstracts like cargo holds full of commodities which can buy heavy gold. And there are ways to move cargoes and bulks through the planes, you can even sail ships across or between planes, entire regions can move (or be moved) to other planes, and spellcasters do not need to be involved. The rules are more flexible, goals are easier, flavour is lost. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Sep 2017 21:59:30 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 22:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As I've said repeatedly, I think a good 'marriage' of PLanescape and Spelljammer is needed, because the two aren't really compatible, in that 'space travel' is pointless when you can just snap your fingers and get somewhere else. The existence of PS negates the usefulness of Arcane Space.
So we should just say that 'Wildspace' is the Border Ethereal, which you enter as an SJ ship/Helm leaves the atmosphere, and the 'Phlogiston' is just the Deep Ethereal - that 'endless void' that exists between the 'worlds' (settings/Spheres). Thus, SJ becomes a subset of PS, just as everything should be (with FR being the 'hub' of The Prime Material, in much the same way that the Outlands is the hub of the Great Wheel). It also helps explain why we can have BOTH 'normal outer space' (which we do - [i]Expedition to the Barrier Peaks[i] demonstrates that normal, techno-space also exists), and have 'magical Space', where you can have flying ships and pirates. You can't disregard REALITY because we KNOW that exists (well... not really... but this is not the place to wax maudlin philosophical). The only way it makes sense is if we have normal (realistic) spaceships capable of flying around in normal (Prime Material) space, and the SJ stuff in its own 'space'.
Which means you should be able to approach the Great Wheel from (SJ) Space, and how cool is that?
Planescape is airports in that you can only show up at certain specified points. Spelljammer is your car in which you go wherever you like, but it takes longer.
On expedition to the barrier peaks (which honestly, have only read about, not actually read), I think what we could say is that a real spaceship that enters wildspace somehow MAY or MAY NOT crash. For all we know, it may be that that ship hit a portal, popped into Greyspace, and then all their technology flipped out and they spiraled out of control. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Sep 2017 22:10:53 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 02:17:54
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S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks of course features technological constructs instead of magical ones. A crashed spaceship, robots, computers, tools, weapons, alloys, plastics. Basically a shameless precursor and introduction of what became TSR's Gamma World circa-1978 "SF-RPG".
This sort of thing was common practice back in the early days. A variety of weird (often ad-hoc) links or crossovers between TSR's D&D, AD&D, Boot Hill, Gamma World, and Star Frontiers games - and between non-TSR games like Call of Cthulhu or Traveller - were implemented into the adventures and the rules and the lore. All these games and worlds and settings were connected, characters and items could be moved between them, the links were sometimes tenuous but in the strictest sense they were (and still are) technically "canon".
Many others have already speculated on the nature of this future spaceship/robot technology in an (A)D&D Blackmoor/Greyhawk setting. The technological devices were largely malfunctional, possibly because they'd been damaged in the crash or because their energy cells had depleted in the time since, possibly because they were being operated by technologically-ignorant (and dangerous, and naive, and incompetent low-level) characters, possibly because they were built to operate on a world with different "physics" than those found within (A)D&D. The last possibility is supported by old (pre-Planescape) Manual of the Planes rules which described "Alternate Prime Material Planes" differing in (among other ways) a "timelike" axis: Earth-like worlds are nearer the high-technology-and-low-magic side of this measure, (A)D&D-like worlds are closer to the opposite low-tech-and-high-magic measure. Devices and constructs moved from one sort of "(Alternate) Prime Material" to the opposite sort of "(Alternate) Prime Material" would rarely continue to function "normally" at all or for very long - the more technologically/magically complex and functional it is here, the more broken or nonfunctional it will be there, DM's discretion, handle on a case-by-case basis, etc. Same deal as Ed's explanation behind our Earth-technology electronics and stuff not working well (if at all) when exposed to the "slightly out of sync physics" of the Realms.
The setting of Gamma World is actually a post-apocalyptic future Earth, sometimes named "Gamma Terra". Maybe or maybe not *our* Earth, but clearly one with very similar "physics" in which the sorts of science and technology we understand can operate. Incidentally, a world where some magic also operates, albeit quite unlike how it does in most (A)D&D settings.
This crashed ship clearly had what spelljammers would call a "(chemically powered) non-magical engine", incapable of interstellar Spelljamming, only able to land on and lift from small weak-gravity planets/bodies ("Size Class A", about 10-mile diameter) and provide minimal tactical movement or maneuvering speeds (SR1). The sort of engines spelljamming folks routinely use on their dinghies and shuttles and lifeboats. I'd say the simplest explanation is that this crashed ship was a small landing boat, perhaps some kind of scout or survey craft or an emergency (crash) landing vessel, not at all required to be something truly interstellar. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 03:39:59
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The wrecked ship in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is very easy to explain, in regards to Spelljammer. There's a formation of stars called the Sisters, in Greyspace (and they're described in the book of the same name). From pages 71-2 of that source:
quote:
On the other hand, the disk-shaped Sargasso around the Sisters carries with it its own danger. If a ship passes through the Sisters—that is, if it penetrates the plane in which the nine quasi-star objects lie—strange things happen. As it penetrates the plane, all aboard feel a kind of internal wrench, as if the ship were moving rapidly in some direction other than the three dimensions of normal space. (irrelevant extra info snipped out)
The danger is that the ship might well not be where or when its crew expects it to be. It might find itself on the opposite side of the Greyspace crystal sphere, almost 16,000 million miles—and 160 days travel—from where it should be. Alternatively, it might find itself in a totally different crystal sphere, 500 million miles inside its boundary. This other sphere might be Realmspace, Krynnspace, or one of the other known spheres, or might be somewhere else entirely.
If this were not bad enough, the ship might find that it had travelled not in space, but in time. It could appear at the same point within the Greyspace crystal sphere, but days, months, years or even centuries later or earlier than the time that it crossed the plane of the Sisters.
There is no way whatsoever of predicting beforehand which of these effects will take place. Thus, those spelljammer captains who decide to use the Sisters as a time machine or as a form of instantaneous travel might be horribly disappointed.
So if a spelljammer from the then-modern era could wind up displaced in time by centuries, it's not unreasonable to assume the Sisters are around centuries or even millennia later, and that a spacecraft from that later time might pass thru them and find itself on an unexpected trip back in time to the Barrier Peaks.
In fact, I'm more than a little inclined to think that's why the Sisters were created. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 04:46:48
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The Sisters are cluster of nine quasi-star objects, arranged in a disk-shaped plane, which function (quite literally) as a sort of "stargate", capable of displacing vessels (at least) a multi-billion miles across space or some centuries across time ... even penetrating the boundaries of crystal spheres ...
And the Sisters were "created" by who or what? Do you mean created by the staff at WotC ... or do you mean created by some sort of race, empire, or god or overgod?
And "created" in past tense? A time-spanning construct/portal/thing could have been (or will be) built in some distant future as easily as in some distant past. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 05:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Sisters are cluster of nine quasi-star objects, arranged in a disk-shaped plane, which function (quite literally) as a sort of "stargate", capable of displacing vessels (at least) a multi-billion miles across space or some centuries across time ... even penetrating the boundaries of crystal spheres ...
And the Sisters were "created" by who or what? Do you mean created by the staff at WotC ... or do you mean created by some sort of race, empire, or god or overgod?
And "created" in past tense? A time-spanning construct/portal/thing could have been (or will be) built in some distant future as easily as in some distant past.
No, I mean that I think the author(s) of Greyspace (too tired to look it up right now) created the Sisters as a mechanism to explain the ship that crashed in the Barrier Peaks, and any other anachronisms on Oerth. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 06:27:08
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You guys aren't getting my point, at all. I know why the ship is there. In fact, thats only part of the ship - the rest is still in Greyspace. Its a homage to another early RPG that came out around then (I forget the name) - this was discussed in the final real issue of Dragon magazine.
Buuuuuuuuut, my point is, if 'real' spaceships exist in the D&Dverse, then Spelljammer space (Wildpsace & The Phlogiston) CAN'T exist. One precludes the other. Thats my whole problem with SJ - it breaks RW physics. Because if it all really works that way, then why don't OUR spacships have air bubbles around them? Or the International Spacestation? An no, I have no problem with magic, dragons, undead, etc., because they do not overwrite real rules we already know about. They are a set of rules we haven't encountered (yet). In fact, most of OD&D is based off of the works of Jack Vance, and 'Vancian Magic' wasn't really magic at all, it was 'super science', so many hundreds of thousands of years in the future people think its magic once again (because the tech itself is lost). All the 'monsters' in that setting? Genetically engineered creatures with super-science. Its not different rules, its a major expansion to the rules of our universe. The Wellworld and Riverworld are other series of novels that have super-science that just looks like magic (and Riverworld deals with 'souls' captured by alien tech).
I can even get past the 'Crystal Spheres' thing - they did that (with Earth) in the Chronicles of Amber (guess what guys? 'space' actually ends soon after pluto, and the 'stars' are just a hologram projected on the 'shell'). So even that is explainable (until we actually travel out beyond Pluto and DON'T bump into a wall LOL).
But Spelljamming? It just completely ignores physics. It doesn't even attempt to make excuses for it. Now, like I said, if we said the ship actually 'slides' into a slightly out-of-sync side-reality (alternate quantum universe, or in D&D, the damn Ethereal Plane), then we don't need to screw physics over, because it isn't all happening in the Prime Material. Both sets of 'laws' get to exist, but seperately. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2017 06:28:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 09:55:03
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But it's canon that physics is different in the D&Dverse -- similar, but different.
And I don't see how something like undead can be explained with real-world physics. Real-world physics would have skeletons unable to move (or sense their environments in any way), zombies and other undead rotting away entirely in weeks or months, and vampires would show up in mirrors and not be able to turn into bats.
Real-world physics would also have some giant creatures simply unable to exist, because their bodies wouldn't be able to support their masses. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 16:28:25
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Physics can differ from sphere to sphere, but the way SJ works is that it works in EVERY sphere (as far as we know). That means, theoretically, it would work in Earthspace... and it shouldn't. We KNOW it doesn't work that way.
If there was just one sphere that SJ worked in I'd have no problem with it, but it works EVERWHERE - its universal. And we KNOW thats just not so. Its such a simple fix to just say "they're 'out-of-sync' with normal space".
Even in ST they discovered 'Fluidic Space' - an alternate universe where the 'space' is filled with some sort of liquid-like medium. So even in a purely scientific Scify universe you can have 'weird, magical stuff' (*cough* 'Q' *cough). It just has to become a subset of the existing universe, or an alternate reality within the multiverse, but it cannot coexist with 'normal tech-space' (although 'Q' could fly a pirate ship through space if he wanted to... but thats because he's pretty-much a 'god'). Basically, what I am trying to say is that there is a difference between breaking the rules (with some sort of McGuffin), and just saying the RW physics (rules) we know to be true is a lie.
And its REALLY weird that I, of all people, am saying that... because thats precisely what I do believe RW. LOL |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 17:20:28
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| I, personally, would not assume that spelljamming would work in Earthspace... We know that physics is different here, so there's no guarantee that all magics would function the same. Even in the D&DVerse, it's not uncommon for magic to function differently in different planes. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 17:34:11
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So things like undead (at least skeletons, zombies, vampires) or flying dragons just don't work and are mere fantasy in a setting with "real-world" physics.
I wonder how many gnomes idly fantasize about radio, computers, robotics, and machines which just don't work in the "physics" of the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 17:46:05
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It might be worth noting that faster-than-light interstellar travel is (as far as we understand and can tell) also impossible within the laws of "real-world" physics.
And spelljamming (along with magic) is also impossible (as far as we can understand and can tell).
Could these two impossibilities cancel each other? We don't (and kinda can't) really know. I agree that we cannot assume spelljamming would work in Earthspace. But I don't agree that we can rule it out. We could prove the argument with the arrival of a spelljamming vessel, we cannot disprove the argument through lack of such an arrival.
Not sure why it matters, since the technological ("non-magical") engines used on the crashed spaceship do work in the Spelljammer physics. Regardless whether a spelljammer works here, we have an explanation for how that techno-ship got there. I do wonder what sort of Earth-like technology could penetrate the surface barrier on a crystal sphere, though. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 20:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I agree that we cannot assume spelljamming would work in Earthspace. But I don't agree that we can rule it out.
Agreed on both counts. We simply don't have enough info to make the case, either way.
Another thing that occurs to me is a Possibility Wars approach... In the Possibility Wars, Earth was invaded by different realities, and the laws of physics of those realities overwrote the previously-existent laws. But there were some individuals who basically carried their own reality around with them -- wherever they went, they could use the rules of their native reality, even in another reality. So maybe someone transiting from the D&DVerse to Earth (or vice versa) would be able to function normally for themselves, even though a local standing right next to them wouldn't be able to do the same thing.
Of course, this is starting to go somewhat astray from a topic that had already wandered more than a bit...  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 20:45:00
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Someone wrote an excellent book in the early 80's (maybe late 70') about how dragons could have been real, using real-word science and physics, including it flying AND breathing fire (the things were basically filled with hydrogen).
As for Undead... read The Hot Zone. It will scare the crap out of you (and its 100% 'factual' - not fantasy or scify). The dead CAN 'walk the Earth'. And Ebola aside, there is a fungus that can turn ants into zombies, thus such things ARE within the realm of science. Hybrids, crossbreeds, genetic manipulation... all possible.
Being a pirate standing on the deck of Spanish Galleon flying out past the rings of Saturn... NOT SO MUCH.
The other reason why I never cared for SJ is because I felt it was just a knock-off of Space: 1889 which won a bunch of awards the year before SJ came out... and they did it BETTER (more 'Steampunk' than magic). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 22:32:51
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| I'm not a steampunker but I do agree Spelljammer would do well with a little more steampunky emphasis. It's already got some brass rivets and smokepowder weapons and even some one-of-a-kind technological eccentricities. But it needs more mechanical and electrical and magnetic and radio inventions, more pioneering "science" (er, I mean "natural philosophy"), more invention and industry. Less of a deliberate attempt to distance it from Space: 1889 (or even Warhammer 40K) with random and, I think, rather stupid weirdness like cannon-toting giff infantrymen and fang-dripping xixchil bio-surgeons. (Though, to be fair, my beloved Planescape setting introduced plenty of "rather stupid" weirdness as well.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 22:47:58
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| I'm a big fan of steampunk, but it's not something I want in Spelljammer -- because that means it's also in the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 22:51:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It might be worth noting that faster-than-light interstellar travel is (as far as we understand and can tell) also impossible within the laws of "real-world" physics.
And spelljamming (along with magic) is also impossible (as far as we can understand and can tell).
Could these two impossibilities cancel each other? We don't (and kinda can't) really know. I agree that we cannot assume spelljamming would work in Earthspace. But I don't agree that we can rule it out. We could prove the argument with the arrival of a spelljamming vessel, we cannot disprove the argument through lack of such an arrival.
Not sure why it matters, since the technological ("non-magical") engines used on the crashed spaceship do work in the Spelljammer physics. Regardless whether a spelljammer works here, we have an explanation for how that techno-ship got there. I do wonder what sort of Earth-like technology could penetrate the surface barrier on a crystal sphere, though.
Bear in mind, just because that ship was in space and showed up in greyspace doesn't mean it traversed the phlogiston and pierced the crystal sphere. Maybe there's a black hole, the techno ship got sucked in, and this black hole is really a portal to greyspace.
Along similar lines, we could have a spelljammer that goes through a portal to the abyss or the elemental plane of air, and maybe helms don't work in the outer/inner planes (we may actually have some lore in the spelljammer setting that says they do work there, but just based off of what I've seen so far I haven't noted anything). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 23:12:04
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Gith pirates can astral shift their entire vessels. Maybe they need a "living" ship like one of those organic elven war vessels, or maybe not. Maybe they need a psionic "silver helm", or maybe not. Maybe any kind of Gith captain from any kind of Gith subrace could pilot the course, or maybe not. Maybe the ship can only move to/through the Astral and Phlogiston, or maybe also to/through other planes as well. I don't know the answers to these "maybe" questions simply because I can't recall any Spelljammer lore in which any variations ever occurred. I do recall it wasn't a thing which wasn't used very much, I think more of an option meant for the tactical/board game than for the AD&D roleplaying game.
But I also can't recall any other method for entire ships to traverse the planes. Although, again, only because I can't recall it ever occurring in lore ... it might be possible. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Sep 2017 23:19:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 23:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It might be worth noting that faster-than-light interstellar travel is (as far as we understand and can tell) also impossible within the laws of "real-world" physics.
And spelljamming (along with magic) is also impossible (as far as we can understand and can tell).
Could these two impossibilities cancel each other? We don't (and kinda can't) really know. I agree that we cannot assume spelljamming would work in Earthspace. But I don't agree that we can rule it out. We could prove the argument with the arrival of a spelljamming vessel, we cannot disprove the argument through lack of such an arrival.
Not sure why it matters, since the technological ("non-magical") engines used on the crashed spaceship do work in the Spelljammer physics. Regardless whether a spelljammer works here, we have an explanation for how that techno-ship got there. I do wonder what sort of Earth-like technology could penetrate the surface barrier on a crystal sphere, though.
Bear in mind, just because that ship was in space and showed up in greyspace doesn't mean it traversed the phlogiston and pierced the crystal sphere. Maybe there's a black hole, the techno ship got sucked in, and this black hole is really a portal to greyspace.
Along similar lines, we could have a spelljammer that goes through a portal to the abyss or the elemental plane of air, and maybe helms don't work in the outer/inner planes (we may actually have some lore in the spelljammer setting that says they do work there, but just based off of what I've seen so far I haven't noted anything).
In Finder's Bane, the characters spelljam over the Outlands in a illithid nautiloid. It got there via a very large Netherese gate.
One of my innumerable personal projects is having a single Warhammer 40K Space Marine in the Realms. My idea is that he and his squad were on a space hulk that got sucked up by a warp storm, and spit out in Realmspace. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Sep 2017 23:45:57 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2017 : 23:30:38
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Spelljammer does not preclude a technological crystal sphere at all, even disregarding the possibility of alternate prime material planes as described in the original Manual of the Planes (and retconned in 2e and sort of re-retconned later). Any given crystal sphere can have different physics rules, including being magic-dead or having traditional gravitational physics. There's also no hard-coded upper limit to the size of a crystal sphere; it's entirely possible for Earth or an Earth-like world to exist in a large one, have traditional sci-fi FTL tech, and have no idea they exist within a crystal sphere because instead of containing just one star system, it encompasses multitudes (perhaps even an entire galaxy). It is very easy to have the two co-exist, although traversing between these "realms" would be incredibly difficult and potentially deadly for player characters. They work better as being within the realm of possibility rather than fully mapped and detailed, IMO, but that's because I don't really like mixing the two realms of fiction.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2017 : 23:48:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Gith pirates can astral shift their entire vessels. Maybe they need a "living" ship like one of those organic elven war vessels, or maybe not. Maybe they need a psionic "silver helm", or maybe not. Maybe any kind of Gith captain from any kind of Gith subrace could pilot the course, or maybe not. Maybe the ship can only move to/through the Astral and Phlogiston, or maybe also to/through other planes as well. I don't know the answers to these "maybe" questions simply because I can't recall any Spelljammer lore in which any variations ever occurred. I do recall it wasn't a thing which wasn't used very much, I think more of an option meant for the tactical/board game than for the AD&D roleplaying game.
But I also can't recall any other method for entire ships to traverse the planes. Although, again, only because I can't recall it ever occurring in lore ... it might be possible.
Yeah and bear in mind, the astral doesn't truly have any physical space to it according to how we understand it, as you "move" through it with your thoughts. Meanwhile spelljammers are all about actual physical space. The idea of spelljammer helms working in the astral may seem nice, but the "physics" of the two are vastly different.
Now, I could buy spelljamming helms working in the inner planes more. Those are "physical" planes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2017 : 23:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It might be worth noting that faster-than-light interstellar travel is (as far as we understand and can tell) also impossible within the laws of "real-world" physics.
And spelljamming (along with magic) is also impossible (as far as we can understand and can tell).
Could these two impossibilities cancel each other? We don't (and kinda can't) really know. I agree that we cannot assume spelljamming would work in Earthspace. But I don't agree that we can rule it out. We could prove the argument with the arrival of a spelljamming vessel, we cannot disprove the argument through lack of such an arrival.
Not sure why it matters, since the technological ("non-magical") engines used on the crashed spaceship do work in the Spelljammer physics. Regardless whether a spelljammer works here, we have an explanation for how that techno-ship got there. I do wonder what sort of Earth-like technology could penetrate the surface barrier on a crystal sphere, though.
Bear in mind, just because that ship was in space and showed up in greyspace doesn't mean it traversed the phlogiston and pierced the crystal sphere. Maybe there's a black hole, the techno ship got sucked in, and this black hole is really a portal to greyspace.
Along similar lines, we could have a spelljammer that goes through a portal to the abyss or the elemental plane of air, and maybe helms don't work in the outer/inner planes (we may actually have some lore in the spelljammer setting that says they do work there, but just based off of what I've seen so far I haven't noted anything).
In Finder's Bane, the characters spelljam over the Outlands in a illithid nautiloid. It got there via a very large Netherese gate.
One of my innumerable personal projects is having a single Warhammer 40K Space Marine in the Realms. My idea is that he and his squad were on a space hulk that got sucked up by a warp storm, and spit out in Realmspace.
Hmmm, so a gate was involved and it bypassed the astral to get to the outlands.... and of all the planes it was the outlands.... which is kind of like the world tree and other weird connectors between planes. I'd almost say that that might be an "unpredictable" kind of place where things that might not work on other outer planes might just wor there. However, it is good to note. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2017 : 00:07:02
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Spelljammer does not preclude a technological crystal sphere at all, even disregarding the possibility of alternate prime material planes as described in the original Manual of the Planes (and retconned in 2e and sort of re-retconned later). Any given crystal sphere can have different physics rules, including being magic-dead or having traditional gravitational physics. There's also no hard-coded upper limit to the size of a crystal sphere; it's entirely possible for Earth or an Earth-like world to exist in a large one, have traditional sci-fi FTL tech, and have no idea they exist within a crystal sphere because instead of containing just one star system, it encompasses multitudes (perhaps even an entire galaxy). It is very easy to have the two co-exist, although traversing between these "realms" would be incredibly difficult and potentially deadly for player characters. They work better as being within the realm of possibility rather than fully mapped and detailed, IMO, but that's because I don't really like mixing the two realms of fiction.
Jeff
Just to throw out there as well.... I wouldn't be surprised if there's areas of the phlogiston that have things other than "crystal spheres" floating in them (let's just call them "containing constructs" for the purpose of this conversation). However, traversing far enough in the phlogiston to FIND these "containing constructs" that aren't "crystal spheres" might be next to impossible within one's lifetime AND/OR be so dangerous that getting to where you see something new is problematic. Like I was saying the other day, I wouldn't be surprised if the path to the "far realm" or "the place where vestiges go" ISN'T through the inner planes or the outer planes but rather the phlogiston (granted some 4e lore does kind of say some links do exist... but then there's contradictions on all that everywhere). It may be that the "containing construct" that holds vestiges or far realms entities is something other than a crystal sphere, and thus you need some other means to get in. Hell, maybe you even need some entity like Yog-Sothoth of the Cthulhu mythos to act as a "key" or "gate" from the phlogiston into those "containing constructs". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Spelljammer - Quad of Thay sources
