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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 10:48:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - Except that in 3e, it might have been simpler to take a 'dip' into a caster class then burn a feat. At least you get other goodies with it (like being able to use magical devices, etc). Thus, everyone on an SJ ship should take at least a one-level dip in a caster class, just in case. The Feat would really only come in with NPCs, I would imagine.
That would be easier, but I think that if you go with my approach of making the helm as the true power source instead of just the siphon, then the possibility of non-casters sitting on it has to be addressed. A non-caster helmsman isn't the objective; it's just a possibility allowed by my approach, and thus something to address. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 11:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for the Spelljamming stuff, what makes the existence of Spelljammers in the Realms any different from the Halruaan flying ships? You mention that having flying ships will make you own the market across the world, but Halruaa wasn't the master of commerce in Faerūn even before the Spellplague.
Halruuan skyships, per the 3e Shining South book, are dependent on the winds for their horizontal movement, and don't actually have a given speed or control rules so there could be all sorts of complications. They also don't have a defined cargo capacity.
5e airships are listed as having a speed of 8 mph and a cargo capacity of 1 ton. Further, this ton is fairly obviously (given the capacity for larger sea vessels on the same table) either something like a traditional 100 cubic foot register ton, or a measure of weight.
Speljammers move 17 miles per hour minimum (SR 1) in any direction their helmsman decides to move them; higher-level helmsmen with a major helm can increase that potentially up to 102 mph (SR 6). Further, their cargo capacity is in Spelljammer tons, which are 100 cubic yards each, and have no weight limit (but you can fit fifty tons-by-weight of wheat in a Spelljammer volume ton).
So a Shou dragonship, for example, has roughly 600 times the cargo capacity of a 5e airship if the airship's cargo ton is a matter of volume, and 1,000 times if it's a matter of weight, while traveling at least twice as fast.
But, really, this doesn't matter too much if spelljamming helms are rare enough. The real issue is if there were a number of people who could create them nearly on-demand. You know, such as if create minor helm were a 5th level cleric spell, allowing, a cleric of 9th level or higher to spend one casting of one fifth-level spell every tenday to maintain a whole fleet of ships able to make the trip from the Moonsea or Sea of Fallen Stars to the Sword Coast in less than 4 days, rendering the entire existing overland caravan trade obsolete. That would completely undercut everything in canon about trade routes and plots around them.
This makes a very good point towards the idea that create minor helm should have a duration of like minutes and nothing like hours or days. It should be literally what its written up as, the means by which a ship in desperation can get their ship under control temporarily. For instance, if someone else destroys their helm or creates an anti-magic shell around it, etc... They could then use this spell to put their ship back under control and then try to take their enemy's helm. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 12:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
hmmm, so I'm looking at the 3e conversion "shadow of the spider moon", and I'm noting that they got rid of the ship rating that's so heavily dependent on the spellcasting level of the person on the helm. Also, it appears that helms don't drain the spellcaster of all magic in 3e. They also added a pilot skill that you can build. I actually find the "not totally draining the caster" as a big game changer, and for playability it makes a lot of sense (after all who wants to strap their wizard in as a player and then be unable to help in a fight). However, I don't want a helm to be some totally independently powered item just like a sword or cloak, etc... I like the idea that a spellcaster must give up some magic to the helm, and maybe this "links" him to it. So, I'm kind of thinking a hybrid thing here, where maybe he gives up a spell slot (or slots) and that maybe sets how long and/or how well he can pilot the vessel, the ship's AC, etc.... However, I also like the idea of a pilot skill, so maybe the spell(s) given helps set the bonus to his pilot skill. Along these same lines, thinking that the additional mages in a quad of thay may just serve as a circle for the spell being given up and just heighten the spell(s) level metamagically. Not exactly sure of the math involved,
While I'm not looking to build out 5e rules for spelljammer, I am intending this to be for 5e. So, has anyone seen any decent rules on DMs Guild that meshes these two concepts well? I will note that someone wrote some realmspace supplements, but he did little more than try to fill in anadia and did nothing on the rules for spelljamming.
I always had an issue with the "sit on the helm, and you're magically useless" concept, and even more of an issue with the fact that the helm was basically described as draining magic away -- but a level 1 cleric on a minor helm moves the ship at the same interplanetary speed, for the same length of time, as a level 20 wizard on a major helm.
My solution was to take the magic drain out of it.
My spin:
Major and minor spelljamming helms contain the power to move the ship -- it's built into the helm itself, and doesn't actually require someone with spellcasting ability to use them.
However, actually controlling the helm requires focusing and directing that power that's built into it. And that kind of focus is beyond most characters -- except those who are spellcasters, because it's essentially the same thing as casting a spell.
Thus, we have the interplanetary speed issue and different level casters solved: the power is in the helm, not the caster.
Now, for tactical speed? Why are more higher level casters faster at tactical speed? Because they've got more levels, they've got more experience bending magical energies to their will. So they bend the energies of the helm to their will better than casters with fewer levels.
Next is the loss of spellcasting ability, connected with 'jamming. Instead of "your butt touched the seat, no spells until you rest!" you instead make mandatory caster checks, with an increasing DC, the longer you're on the helm. It's not that the spells are gone or anything, it's the mental strain from controlling the magics of the helm -- it mentally wears you down. So after a couple hours, you're better off not even trying your highest level spells; they'll prolly fizzle. Your mid- and lower-level spells will be tougher than normal to cast, but it's still doable. After several hours, you'll be doing good to manage even the low-level spells. Of course, once you rest, you get over that strain, and you can cast all of your spells -- which are still memorized -- without an issue.
This also allows non-wizards and non-clerics to spelljam. Since those were the main casters in 2E, the spelljamming mechanic was built with them in mind. My spin allows you to throw sorcerers and other casters into the mix -- just base everything off of their spellcasting ability. Even hybrid classes -- you could just say that they spelljam as a full caster of half their level (rounded up), or maybe do something like a flat level-4 to get their spelljamming level.
You could even half non-spellcasting helmspeople, too. Maybe make it a feat for non-casters, requiring a really high mental attribute, and the increased mental strain has physical penalties (they can't focus to stab accurately or swing with all their might).
They'll still be far less effective than a caster, but this could give you the odd rogue or warrior who could drive a ship.
Sounds like we're heading roughly in the same direction. What I describe may be easier to work out mechanically in the form of you give up a spell of X level and you can work the helm say for X + n hours (the n being their because maybe in theory you can feed the helm raw energy as well for a while kind of like continually releasing cantrips into the helm to power it). So, like you say, I see most spellcasters as releasing their lowest level spells into the helm first rather than burning their best stuff.
However, you make a good point on the piloting at tactical speeds. Maybe there should be a bonus entirely dependent on spellcaster level or maybe highest level spell slot. In fact, the spell slot level may work best, because then the bonus for hybrid casters would tend to be easily depicted. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 12:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - Except that in 3e, it might have been simpler to take a 'dip' into a caster class then burn a feat. At least you get other goodies with it (like being able to use magical devices, etc). Thus, everyone on an SJ ship should take at least a one-level dip in a caster class, just in case. The Feat would really only come in with NPCs, I would imagine.
@Sleyvas - I like your thought-train there. I never cared for SJ (probably my least favorite setting or at least tied with Birthright for that honor). Of course, I've warmed to both over the years (4e had a way of making anything 'old' look good LOL). Anyhow, 'if' I were to put some effort into this, I would do something along the lines of what you proposed - I'd have a system wherein there was a 'Pilot' Feat/Skill, and then have a chart where the magic level of the helmsman got cross-reference with his Pilot skill level, and that would give you 'Power Level' (so different level mages could have the same power level just by having a higher Pilot skill). Then you'd have a second chart (its starting to sound like 1e/2e... I really don't miss those DM screens...) where you had 'options' available, to go along with your base power Level. For example, you can 'overburn' you magic (use spell-slots) to temporarily increase your Power Level in an emergency (come to think of it, we don't need a second Table, really, just a list of what 'Overburning' spell slots accomplishes). If you use up ALL your magic in this way, you'd have to make a system-shock roll or become one of those 'Void Zombies', or whatever.
Now, on to weapons. I had the same (MAJOR) problem with the party wizard being completely useless most of the time in SJ. Not too many players want to see their level 20 Uber-mage become 'gasoline'. So what if we built some nifty toys into the ships themselves? Or even somehow allowed the caster to use the ship as a 'focus' (like a magic wand, staff, etc) and cast spells through it. Fire a lightning bolt from the prow, or cast magic missiles out the eyes of the figurehead, etc.? And maybe with some skill (perhaps a check against his pilot skill), he could even cast spells on the ship that he normally can only cast on himself (the first thing that jumps to mind is stoneskin... stonehull). Thus, a Mage can stay 'connected' to the ship during combat, and still participate. Using the 'overburn' ability would be the same as casting a spell, so both can't be done at the same time.
Yeah, I read spelljammer back in the day, but it was just the main boxed set. Over the years, I've picked up things here and there enough to appreciate the setting concept, but never have used it. So, I don't think a lot of people are engrossed entirely with the concept that they wouldn't like to see change.
I don't like the idea of helms being powered on their own. I like them being something akin somewhat to a mythallar on a vague level, except they aren't drawing from the weave... they're drawing from the spellcaster. However, unlike in earlier editions where it would be a spellcaster releasing a spell into it like charging a battery, I see his "slowly releasing spell slots" into it as him giving his mental capacity towards drawing in magic potential and converting it to the helm in slow spurts.
At spelljamming speeds, all things may move at the same speed, and its simply how much time a spellcaster can give to pushing the helm per day. Thus, a 1st level caster may only be able to go (spell level + n) x 10 minutes (where maybe n is something like the bonus given by their spellcasting ability score such as Int, Wis, Char). So, a 1st level character may be able to run a spelljammer at full speed, but for only like maybe all of an hour a day. A higher level caster may have to release all his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and maybe even 4th level spells to operate a spelljammer for say 8 or more hours per day... and if they want to push themselves beyond say 8 hours a day, maybe they are FORCED to perform a short rest every 2 hours throughout the rest of the day until they hit 24 hours (so 2 hours on, rest 1 hour, 2 hours on, rest 1 hour). During this time past 8 hours, even while they're resting, the spelljamming "time" they had spent is ticking down, and they may have to release a spell slot just before resting just to cover the hour that they have to rest. Also, maybe during these short rests you make them burn hit die as well... say 1 hit die per hour past hour 8 that they're running the helm. While these mechanics may sound encumbering, it makes it more simple to have a caster that's "on helm" for only 8 hours a day and then they swap to someone else who isn't so tired... but then that rare occasion when you want to have that lone wizard in his ship on the run, it can add a little spice to the mix.... meanwhile the people chasing him are simply swapping out drivers.
I also love the idea of using the spelljammer helm to operate and cast spells through it. I had been playing with that exact concept for use with the quads, with the idea of them "reversing the jets" so that they fly with their "claws"/"fins"/"vanes" or whatever you want to call them facing whatever they fire at. However, we have to be careful with this, as it can overpower the other ship to ship combat things that they developed for spelljammer. The idea of being able to cast spells meant for self onto a ship though (i.e. as you describe, stoneskin, maybe mage armor, shield, etc... a modified wall of stone/ice/fire to be spherical... and many more) THAT seems less likely to be abusable and it really makes it interesting to someone like me who is more concerned with adding warding back to the game. In fact if someone wants to have some discussions on ship warding, you will quite literally make me extremely happy. I love that kind of discussion. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Sep 2017 13:16:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 14:30:54
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See, I don't like the idea of the spellcaster being the power source, for the reason I stated earlier: a level 1 cleric on a minor helm has the same interplanetary capability as a level 20 wizard on a major helm. For the purposes of interplanetary travel, which is orders of magnitude faster than any form of travel aside from translocation, there is literally no difference between those two casters on their different helms.
If someone with dozens of spells and a more efficient helm drives the ship the same as someone with a less efficient helm and only 1 or 2 spells, then either the helm is using only a negligible amount of the caster's power, and not all of it, or it's not using their power at all. Since the official lore is that a spellcaster loses all of their spellcasting potential (even if they only man the helm for a brief time!), that makes the idea of only a little power being taken from the caster particularly problematic.
To me, the easiest solution is that the helm is the power source. This would also help explain why the helm by itself can cost more than an entire ship.
Spelljammer was my first love of TSR settings, and I got all of the Spelljammer material, back in the day -- even tracking down a couple of Polyhedrons, for their content, in those long-ago days before eBay made finding this stuff easier. And since it was my first love, I gave it a lot of consideration.
It is my opinion that any approach other than using the helm as the power source leaves questions such as the one I raise. My approach covers those discrepancies, and using the spin of the helmsman as a channeller of the helm's energies keeps the requirement of a spellcasting driver. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 15:21:37
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BTW, as long as we're discussing the rules for jamming, gonna just throw out some concepts.
I don't like the idea of just anyone using major and minor helms. They should be spellcasters. There shouldn't be a special bard's helm or wu jen's helm, etc.... It should be all spellcasters. That being said there are other kinds of helms in 2e, and I'm noting that the 3e rendition of shadow of the spider moon didn't adapt them all. So, let's discuss.
Oh, on the difference in major and minor helms, maybe the costs I quoted previously are for minor helms, and major helms consume "spell power" etc.... at twice the rate. Such would apply to the below as well, such that there may be major lifejammer and minor lifejammers, etc....
Lifejammer - the general concept is one person drives and another creature powers the driving with their life. This is the perfect use of daily hit die followed by actually killing a creature. Maybe every 30 minutes of use burns a hit die, and then once they're out of hit die it starts burning actual hit points in the form of what they'd get for a hit die every half hour. So, let's say a creature that has 4d4+8 hit points would in theory have 4 hit die. That would let someone run a spelljammer for 8 x 30 minutes or 4 hours before it dies off. In addition, maybe someone can power such a helm using their own hit die, allowing a lone pilot without spellcasting to power their own lifejammer helm. After 8 hours, maybe the cost in hit die starts doubling. In this way, a ship might be able to power itself without actually killing all of its captives.
solar sails - not sure if anything has this designed, but the elven ships and a lot of others look like they're trying to incorporate the concept. Maybe these could be an add-on to a ship with a spellcaster's helm that gives say an hour of use per day in crystal sphere with some kind of sun.
series helm - illithids should still have these instead of lifejammers, and maybe these should be able to work with any being able to wield psionic power and with telepathy. Thinking they can operate up to 2 hours per day per linked helm, plus when at tactical speed for every series helm they get some bonus to piloting. Maybe all such helms are minor helms.
pool helm - illithids should also have these, on ships with an elder brain. Not sure of the mechanics to use, but possibly tying them in with five series helms with attached illithids, and then tying in the elder brain as a sixth such addition. Making these the only illithid major helm would mean these would be required for any big illithid spelljamming ship.
Orbus - this is the special beholder "living" helm. Think of them like the special cylons in battlestar galactica that ran their ships. In fact, maybe other beholders look at these beings as some kind of oracles as they "have eyes that can see beyond the physical"... with special reverence for "eyes" given that they're beholders? Maybe even make an orbus some kind of divine servant of a beholder god with eye abilities that resemble a divine servants?
Dwarven forges- honestly I find these wonky, so let's get rid of them. the idea that you're powering the ship with your creative energy ... ah, let's just head towards the below.
gnomish helms and non-magical helms - Combine these two, along with the concepts of forges above. Basically, you've discovered some means of propulsing yourself forward via some kind of chemical propulsion. It should be a lot cheaper to initially build, but have an ongoing cost. This makes it good for small craft that hold say less than half a dozen folks (i.e. emergency craft, shuttles, etc...). Its less effective, and while in the phlogiston you probably have to provide some means of preventing the chemical reaction setting the phlogiston on fire. Thus, generally, maybe these helms are used for wildspace within a crystal sphere, and even then maybe not for planetary travel but rather between asteroids or ships or surface to a moon, etc.... Whether this is steam power, bursts of bombard oil, some kind of hot air balloon, etc... would vary according to the culture. Also, maybe these types of devices have a piloting advantage within an atmosphere (i.e. not in wildspace).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 16:00:20
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I'd prefer to limit the spelljamming to casters, too, but my spin does have the potential for non-casting helmsmen, so I addressed the topic. Making it a feat cost, tied to a high mental attribute, and a lessened capability as a helmsmen, makes this a really unlikely option for a PC... That said, some people like to find the odd loopholes, so I tossed that in there.
Dwarven forges are a problem... But you could say that it's not just any forge, but a specially-constructed one consecrated to multiple dwarven gods and a permanent part of the ship, and that it requires the continuous prayers of a priest and repeated crafting checks to make it go -- making it a variant of a regular helm, basically.
Or maybe the forge incorporates one of the non-Arcane helms created by spellcraft, and the constant crafting extends the duration of the spell.
Or it could be like the gnomish helms -- there's a regular helm buried somewhere in there, and they just won't admit to it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 17:36:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd prefer to limit the spelljamming to casters, too, but my spin does have the potential for non-casting helmsmen, so I addressed the topic. Making it a feat cost, tied to a high mental attribute, and a lessened capability as a helmsmen, makes this a really unlikely option for a PC... That said, some people like to find the odd loopholes, so I tossed that in there.
Dwarven forges are a problem... But you could say that it's not just any forge, but a specially-constructed one consecrated to multiple dwarven gods and a permanent part of the ship, and that it requires the continuous prayers of a priest and repeated crafting checks to make it go -- making it a variant of a regular helm, basically.
Or maybe the forge incorporates one of the non-Arcane helms created by spellcraft, and the constant crafting extends the duration of the spell.
Or it could be like the gnomish helms -- there's a regular helm buried somewhere in there, and they just won't admit to it.
On the non-casters, you would have viable options with a lifejammer, especially if you use the hit die of the helmsman idea. Basically, it could come down to spellcasters use regular (lets call them spellcasting) helms. Non-spellcasters use lifejammers. Psions use series helms. Beholders have living helms. Then there's the short-range non-magical methods of propulsion. Quads of Thay would use a grand helm which is LIKE a regular major helm modified to incorporate circle magic, except that the way it works uses the border ethereal and thus isn't good in the phlogiston.
Yeah, the forge still seems wonky. I mean, if you're going to have to involve a priest, then just use a regular helm. Not saying you couldn't develop rules for it... just saying why? If you really wanted to push the concept for imagery, then maybe make something that converts fire into magical fire, and then convert the magical fire into raw magic. So, maybe the dwarves are basically burning large amounts of coal to fuel a minor helm. But when spelljammer came out dwarven priests and wizards were unheard of pretty much, so they created this add on specifically for them. Now finding a dwarven cleric, wizard, paladin, eldritch knight, etc... wouldn't make anyone bat an eye. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 18:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I don't like the idea of the spellcaster being the power source, for the reason I stated earlier: a level 1 cleric on a minor helm has the same interplanetary capability as a level 20 wizard on a major helm. For the purposes of interplanetary travel, which is orders of magnitude faster than any form of travel aside from translocation, there is literally no difference between those two casters on their different helms.
Right, but that's only good for actually moving from planet to planet. It means you can put the level 1 apprentice on the helm for the long, unremarkable parts of the trip, then pull him him off and have the 12th level master take the helm to escape or fight a foe. It also makes space travel slightly more feasible for merchants, as there are far more low-level spellcasters than high level spellcasters; that means the only limiting factor for them is money (which is a pretty substantial limiting factor).
It also would make travel time a pain to calculate for a DM, and would make fleet movements virtually impossible, rather than just difficult.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lifejammer - <snip> Maybe every 30 minutes of use burns a hit die, and then once they're out of hit die it starts burning actual hit points in the form of what they'd get for a hit die every half hour. So, let's say a creature that has 4d4+8 hit points would in theory have 4 hit die. That would let someone run a spelljammer for 8 x 30 minutes or 4 hours before it dies off.
The problem with this is that Lifejammers as they are currently designed get at least one day out of their victims. That needs to be preserved at least, otherwise they become useless; they're already really bad for long voyages.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
series helm - illithids should still have these instead of lifejammers, and maybe these should be able to work with any being able to wield psionic power and with telepathy. Thinking they can operate up to 2 hours per day per linked helm, plus when at tactical speed for every series helm they get some bonus to piloting. Maybe all such helms are minor helms.
Series Helms work with innate abilities; i.e. ogre magi, pixies, illithids, etc. can all use the same Series Helms. Illithids are just the main users of them. They grant 1 SR per helmsman, up to five.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Orbus - this is the special beholder "living" helm. Think of them like the special cylons in battlestar galactica that ran their ships. In fact, maybe other beholders look at these beings as some kind of oracles as they "have eyes that can see beyond the physical"... with special reverence for "eyes" given that they're beholders? Maybe even make an orbus some kind of divine servant of a beholder god with eye abilities that resemble a divine servants?
Orbii are... not intelligent. Beholders see them as tools, and they are, oddly enough, one of the few beings that don't trigger their xenophobia; one beholder group will happily slay another beholder group to the last orb, and then take their orbus. They have no powers and abilities beyond their anti-magic eye and powering spelljamming ships. IIRC, even other races can command them, which is why they're jealously guarded by beholders.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Dwarven forges- honestly I find these wonky, so let's get rid of them. the idea that you're powering the ship with your creative energy ... ah, let's just head towards the below.
That eliminates dwarven fortresses as movable fortresses, and to a certain extent makes them sitting targets for attacks, and especially makes them extremely vulnerable to starvation and blockades. With a movable asteroid, they can take their fortress to supplies, rather than having to bring their supplies to their fortress, and they can literally just ram through blockades. There's already a thread of dwarves making magical items through pure will (rather than using standard enchantments as most wizards or priests can); personally, I love the idea of dwarves using their creative energy to power ships. It adds a lot to the dwarven character IMO.
As much as there are some minor issues with certain elements in Spelljammer, most of the existing elements all work together to maintain play balance and make much of the system reasonably believable; most changes I've seen people propose would destabilize the setting in many unintended ways.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 18:10:36
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Both versions could be possible. Going back to my 'Ęther Crystals' as a fuel - what if they were something mined secretly by the Mercane and used to build their basic Helms? It would last for a time (we'd probably have to keep track of the time used (not so much distance), and then the crystal would 'burn out' (as I said, similar to how Dilithium crystal work in ST). Now, as long as your crystals ar working, a Caster doesn't have to add any power to the Helm - he merely need link with it to control it. He could add spell slots to it, for that 'Overburn' effect I described above (boosting the base PL (Power Level) of the Helm. I don't think I'd want there to be a way of drawing more power from the crystals (thus, burning them out quicker - in order to simplify things the power-draw should have to be a steady, even flow from them).
Now, IF the crystals DO burn-out (no fuel), a caster can directly pump levels of spells into the Helm, temporarily powering it (like how you can use diesel fuel in a pinch if you run out of home heating oil). This puts us back to the original system (sort of). The Caster IS the power-source. We can simplify this by using the same chart as the one I proposed for the 'Overburn' (thus, if spell level = PL {Power Level of Helm}, we get to use one set of rules for two different, related mechanics). We'd also have to figure-out how long it lasts (we could just use a very simplified math-system, where you can use a level 3 spell slot to power it, but you can have the Helm operate at PL1 so you can have 3x the duration... something like that). Or use a level 9 slot to have PL9 for a short time, or have PL3 for 3x the normal duration, etc., etc. Sounds complicated, but it really isn't, and it should rarely come into play (and if we did it right, it would stop those pesky rules-lawyers from finding any exploitable 'loopholes').
Temporary Helms via spells: The Mage BECOMES the Helm, no ifs, ands, or buts. That nerfs most of the exploitability. If the caster stops 'being the Helm' for any reason, the spell is broken. End of discussion. Also, while operating in this fashion, he can't use his magic for anything else (this addresses my other ideas above - that the caster can use the ship itself as a 'focus' to cast spells through). 'Being the Helm' requires total concentration, and no other actions are allowed (its like when a Mage goes into the astral and leaves his body behind - its comatose).
Another way to handle it that could possibly be simpler, but less flavorful (and a little too 'mechanical' for my liking, IG) is to say that the stats given for the Helm spell are only for Interstellar (Phlogiston) space, between the Spheres. Once within a sphere (Wildspace) that rating drops to hours, and once within the gravity well of a singularity (anything capable of having its own air bubble) it drops to minutes. That should keep control of that spell as well. I wouldn't recommend using both methods, though.
Non-Casters using a Helm: I would only allow this IF the character understood in advance that the next feat they got, or level they obtained, they would have to take the Pilot Feat or take a level in a casting class. As a DM, I would think taking this extreme risk (there should be a system shock roll here as well) would give a bunch of EP (after all, they are learning a whole new thing 'cold'), and a generous DM may even give them enough to reach that next level... if they were already close enough. Perhaps a Rogue could get away with doing this without that caveat (any class capable of using magic items should be able to pull it off - Rogues can still do that, right?)
Results of failed system shock roll from trying to use a Helm in a way it wasn't meant to (no casting skill, no fuel, etc): Success is success. Failure = loss of half HP and knocked unconscious for 1d6 hours. YES, I said HOURS (or course, magic might wake the character early - consider it 'a curse' for healing purposes). Critical Failure = Spontaneous Human Combustion. A kind DM 'may' leave behind a big enough piece to Rez.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 18:13:49
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I don't like the idea of the spellcaster being the power source, for the reason I stated earlier: a level 1 cleric on a minor helm has the same interplanetary capability as a level 20 wizard on a major helm. For the purposes of interplanetary travel, which is orders of magnitude faster than any form of travel aside from translocation, there is literally no difference between those two casters on their different helms.
Right, but that's only good for actually moving from planet to planet. It means you can put the level 1 apprentice on the helm for the long, unremarkable parts of the trip, then pull him him off and have the 12th level master take the helm to escape or fight a foe. It also makes space travel slightly more feasible for merchants, as there are far more low-level spellcasters than high level spellcasters; that means the only limiting factor for them is money (which is a pretty substantial limiting factor).
It also would make travel time a pain to calculate for a DM, and would make fleet movements virtually impossible, rather than just difficult.
I'm not sure what point you're making. I specifically referred to interplanetary speeds, and my whole thing is an effort to make the entire spelljamming concept make more sense. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 18:16:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Going back to my 'Ęther Crystals' as a fuel - what if they were something mined secretly by the Mercane and used to build their basic Helms?
That's actually been my thinking: the permanent helms are made by the Arcane because they have a monopoly on the material that makes the helms work. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 18:27:15
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Dwarves are capable of a 'Great Work' - the culmination of a lifetime of creative crafting (as in the case of the Axe Bruenor made for Wulfgar). This is a religious experience to them, like the ecstasy (as if their gods are guiding their hands).
Thus, I 'might' say that any dwarves involved in using Dwarven Forges would no longer have the chance to create their 'Great Work'. I think that right there would be a HUGE limiting factor, given their culture. Conversely, you could say that after a dwarf has completed their 'Great Work', they are no longer capable using (or contributing to) a Helm, because they've 'used up' that divine spark they had.
However, I am not fond of that. Instead, I would say the Forges are using Rune Magic, which is a much more primal form of magic (Raw Magic, in FR terms). Thus, the users MUST be 'Runecasters', of some sort. Here we are back to the Pilot feat or 'Caster Class' thing I addressed above. The Forge itself should be a rune-covered artifact, like maybe an immense throne. It was probably the 'Great Work' of some master Dwarven smith. Each dwarf who uses it must add their own rune(s) to it (and the runes glow, because, ya know... Kewlness and stuff). As far as anyone knows, only a dwarf can use a RuneForge (however, the truth of the matter is that anyone who can use Rune Magic should be able to do so, so some giants would be able to use it as well).
And I am thinking there should be some chanting involved... maybe the whole clan (or specific members) are all chanting to lend it their 'power'? I'm just thinking 'flavor' here - riding on one of these rocks would drive a non-dwarf nuts after a while (imagine being somewhere and CONSTANTLY hearing 'monastic chants' in the background). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Sep 2017 21:17:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 20:36:57
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I don't like the idea of the spellcaster being the power source, for the reason I stated earlier: a level 1 cleric on a minor helm has the same interplanetary capability as a level 20 wizard on a major helm. For the purposes of interplanetary travel, which is orders of magnitude faster than any form of travel aside from translocation, there is literally no difference between those two casters on their different helms.
Right, but that's only good for actually moving from planet to planet. It means you can put the level 1 apprentice on the helm for the long, unremarkable parts of the trip, then pull him him off and have the 12th level master take the helm to escape or fight a foe. It also makes space travel slightly more feasible for merchants, as there are far more low-level spellcasters than high level spellcasters; that means the only limiting factor for them is money (which is a pretty substantial limiting factor).
It also would make travel time a pain to calculate for a DM, and would make fleet movements virtually impossible, rather than just difficult.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lifejammer - <snip> Maybe every 30 minutes of use burns a hit die, and then once they're out of hit die it starts burning actual hit points in the form of what they'd get for a hit die every half hour. So, let's say a creature that has 4d4+8 hit points would in theory have 4 hit die. That would let someone run a spelljammer for 8 x 30 minutes or 4 hours before it dies off.
The problem with this is that Lifejammers as they are currently designed get at least one day out of their victims. That needs to be preserved at least, otherwise they become useless; they're already really bad for long voyages.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
series helm - illithids should still have these instead of lifejammers, and maybe these should be able to work with any being able to wield psionic power and with telepathy. Thinking they can operate up to 2 hours per day per linked helm, plus when at tactical speed for every series helm they get some bonus to piloting. Maybe all such helms are minor helms.
Series Helms work with innate abilities; i.e. ogre magi, pixies, illithids, etc. can all use the same Series Helms. Illithids are just the main users of them. They grant 1 SR per helmsman, up to five.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Orbus - this is the special beholder "living" helm. Think of them like the special cylons in battlestar galactica that ran their ships. In fact, maybe other beholders look at these beings as some kind of oracles as they "have eyes that can see beyond the physical"... with special reverence for "eyes" given that they're beholders? Maybe even make an orbus some kind of divine servant of a beholder god with eye abilities that resemble a divine servants?
Orbii are... not intelligent. Beholders see them as tools, and they are, oddly enough, one of the few beings that don't trigger their xenophobia; one beholder group will happily slay another beholder group to the last orb, and then take their orbus. They have no powers and abilities beyond their anti-magic eye and powering spelljamming ships. IIRC, even other races can command them, which is why they're jealously guarded by beholders.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Dwarven forges- honestly I find these wonky, so let's get rid of them. the idea that you're powering the ship with your creative energy ... ah, let's just head towards the below.
That eliminates dwarven fortresses as movable fortresses, and to a certain extent makes them sitting targets for attacks, and especially makes them extremely vulnerable to starvation and blockades. With a movable asteroid, they can take their fortress to supplies, rather than having to bring their supplies to their fortress, and they can literally just ram through blockades. There's already a thread of dwarves making magical items through pure will (rather than using standard enchantments as most wizards or priests can); personally, I love the idea of dwarves using their creative energy to power ships. It adds a lot to the dwarven character IMO.
As much as there are some minor issues with certain elements in Spelljammer, most of the existing elements all work together to maintain play balance and make much of the system reasonably believable; most changes I've seen people propose would destabilize the setting in many unintended ways.
Jeff
I get lost when we start doing all the inline responses, so I'll respond below
Regarding lifejammers. IF you're just burning 5e hit die (and not actual hit points) and you assume that monsters have hit die for this purpose, then is there any reason you have to burn a creature from start to finish? By that, I mean, could you say throw in a gnoll, use them for 2 hours to burn its hit die (I think gnolls have 2 dice in 5e... not looking), then throw in another gnoll for another 2 hours, then another gnoll for 2 hours, etc.... such that none of these gnolls are actually physically hurt... they're just tired and unable to heal if they DO get hurt. If lifejammers DO require you to burn a creature down from start to finish, we should change that.
Regarding series helms. Yeah, I had noted that this was something for use with creatures with special abilities. Honestly, I wouldn't be adverse in this instance in making 2 types of helms. One for creatures with magical abilities... one for psionic entities. Maybe the creatures with magical abilities can't combine their powers like the psionic/telepathic ones can.
Regarding Orbii. Is there any reason they have to remain unintelligent? Maybe they just live outside the need to fight racial wars? Note, I like the oracle aspect in that maybe they just spout out things (and that purely came from battlestar galactica... but even moreso because of beholders "seeing" things), but the divine spellcasting part of it could also be changed. For instance, what if Orbii get some kind of eye abilities that are specifically geared towards repairing or defending the ship? What if they have some kind of telepathic link to smaller orbii that are like the beholderkin known as eyeballs? In fact, what if one of their "eye" abilities of an Orbus is to alter a beholderkin eyeball into some kind of beholder spelljammer creature? Through these eyeballs they manage to repair their ship. Now that I think about it, it could be kind of like the creature "Pilot" that ran the ship Moya in the SciFi tv series Farscape.
On forges... ah, I'll cave here. If people like them so much, then that's cool. I just personally don't see the logic and/or draw. That being said, almost anything can be fixed with "its magic... there's mystery to it". Maybe Moradin blesses the forge personally for all I know.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 20:51:30
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| I'd honestly never thought much about forges... But I think Markus's idea of involving runic magic for dwarven forges is a nifty one. I'm not sure I'd spin it quite the same way he does, but there's some potential, there. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 21:24:45
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Question: Lifejammers - is the Hit Dice loss permanent? Like, how does that even work? Like losing levels in old D&D? (There used to be a few undead who could do that, which is why I used undead sparingly back then - I felt that was insanely unfair to players).
Perhaps make it similar to how vampires work? (because technically, that Helm IS 'vampiric'). Heck, I'm not even sure how vampires work anymore. TOO MANY editions... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 22:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Question: Lifejammers - is the Hit Dice loss permanent? Like, how does that even work? Like losing levels in old D&D? (There used to be a few undead who could do that, which is why I used undead sparingly back then - I felt that was insanely unfair to players).
Perhaps make it similar to how vampires work? (because technically, that Helm IS 'vampiric'). Heck, I'm not even sure how vampires work anymore. TOO MANY editions...
As I recall, the mechanics of lifejammers wasn't really addressed.
Without referring to the source material to see if I'm wrong (I'm about the run out the door), I'd say that the hit point list is temporary (there is a reference to using them in desperate situations), up to a certain point. I think I'd say temporary hit point lost down to 0 hp, and then permanent loss if they keep going after that, with death occurring at minus their CON score.
But that's a quick, no-reference idea, from someone weak on rules. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 22:56:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Dwarves are capable of a 'Great Work' - the culmination of a lifetime of creative crafting (as in the case of the Axe Bruenor made for Wulfgar). This is a religious experience to them, like the ecstasy (as if their gods are guiding their hands).
Thus, I 'might' say that any dwarves involved in using Dwarven Forges would no longer have the chance to create their 'Great Work'. I think that right there would be a HUGE limiting factor, given their culture. Conversely, you could say that after a dwarf has completed their 'Great Work', they are no longer capable using (or contributing to) a Helm, because they've 'used up' that divine spark they had.
However, I am not fond of that. Instead, I would say the Forges are using Rune Magic, which is a much more primal form of magic (Raw Magic, in FR terms). Thus, the users MUST be 'Runecasters', of some sort. Here we are back to the Pilot feat or 'Caster Class' thing I addressed above. The Forge itself should be a rune-covered artifact, like maybe an immense throne. It was probably the 'Great Work' of some master Dwarven smith. Each dwarf who uses it must add their own rune(s) to it (and the runes glow, because, ya know... Kewlness and stuff). As far as anyone knows, only a dwarf can use a RuneForge (however, the truth of the matter is that anyone who can use Rune Magic should be able to do so, so some giants would be able to use it as well).
And I am thinking there should be some chanting involved... maybe the whole clan (or specific members) are all chanting to lend it their 'power'? I'm just thinking 'flavor' here - riding on one of these rocks would drive a non-dwarf nuts after a while (imagine being somewhere and CONSTANTLY hearing 'monastic chants' in the background).
I like this. Maybe something where they carve a rune and it fades away. So, they have to recarve it. Maybe even the helm has places with runes you have to touch to turn left/right/up/down/forwards/backwards, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 23:17:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Question: Lifejammers - is the Hit Dice loss permanent? Like, how does that even work? Like losing levels in old D&D? (There used to be a few undead who could do that, which is why I used undead sparingly back then - I felt that was insanely unfair to players).
Perhaps make it similar to how vampires work? (because technically, that Helm IS 'vampiric'). Heck, I'm not even sure how vampires work anymore. TOO MANY editions...
In 5th edition you get an amount of hit die every day that matches the dice you used to generate your hit points. So, a 4th level wizard/4th level fighter with 16 Constitution would get 4d6 and 4d10 hit dice with +3 added to each hit die. Every day after say a short rest they can use some or all of these hit die to heal themselves, etc... Whenever you do a long rest, you get those hit dice back for use the next day.
Some folks have been coming up with alternate uses for these hit dice. For instance, one guy wrote blood magic rules in which you can modify your spells and things in various ways by giving up hit dice.
In my red book of spell strategy, I used similar mechanics a lot. For instance, I instituted a feat called blood sorcery in which a sorcerer gives up hit die for sorcery points. I also created some mantle feats that use up hit die. I created a blood pact feat which allows a warlock to renew a spell slot by sacrificing to their patron. I also give Hathrans and Durthans a form of pact magic that requires them to expend hit dice to cast spells from their spell list even if they don't know them, etc... I also give certain groups the ability to cast a more advanced form of find familiar (Durthans get telthors, mystical hierophants get an animal, vremyonni get animated weapons/armor/constructs, etc) that can attack, but it requires the use of hit die, such that they can cast it as a ritual, but only a limited number of times a day. I also give an optional rule in which you can give up hit dice permanently for feats.
rules for 5e rests involving hit dice below
Short Rest
A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.
A character can spend one or more Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, up to the character's maximum number of Hit Dice, which is equal to the character's level. For each Hit Die spent in this way, the player rolls the die and adds the character's Constitution modifier to it. The character regains hit points equal to the total. The player can decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll. A character regains some spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest, as explained below.
Long Rest
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity--at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity--the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character's total number of them (minimum of one die). For example, if a character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest.
A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 23:40:28
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So many different kinds of helms, all these and more! "Spelljammers", "psijammers", "lifejammers" ... and others ... all converting magic, faith, thought, feeling, or life itself (of some kind or other) into raw motive propulsion through space.
Spelljammer helms are typically powered by (memorized) spells. So things like furnace helms which burn magical scrolls or items (and arti-furnace helms which "forever" burn "indestructible" artifacts) are logical extensions. Things like "psijammer" and "lifejammer" helms (along with living "orbus" helms and unliving "death helms") are also grasped fairly easily.
The workings of sturdy "forge helms" powered by dwarven industry and steampunk-like (highly complex, highly inefficient) "tinker helms" invented by gnomish tinkers seem less clear but they add variety and flavour. There's even Viking-styled longships powered through space by oarsmen. One vessel is even powered by feeding the (small, loud, angry, and always hungry) god/idol it carries onboard. There are supposedly non-magical (technological) helms/engines. There are perhaps the "silver helms" of the giths. There's even helms and ships which are themselves alive and/or artifacts of minor or major power.
I recall the hit point drain of lifejammers was temporary, basically just a form of damage which would heal over time - unless the drain was allowed to be complete and fatal - in which case, of course, the lost life wouldn't heal.
I always had issue with priests using helms, indeed with faith-powered helms of any sort, specifically when the deity (or whatever) they worship lacks any power or presence outside particular crystal spheres. I would think that "faithjammers" would be encouraged as a wonderfully self-reliant way of spreading a deity's influence across spheres and worlds ... and also discouraged for exactly the same reason. |
[/Ayrik] |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 02:02:01
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Forges never made particular sense to me, in the context of Spelljammer-as-written. You don't need wizards to power helms; clerics work just fine, and dwarves have 'em. You don't need to be able to move asteroid mining colonies at high speed to have asteroid mining colonies, either. The only thing that forges really did was make the dwarves the only people in fantasy space able to operate really big ships (100-700 tons if you believe the forge entry, 300-700 if you believe the citadel entry) . . . but that didn't translate into the setting-as-written as anything important.
Really, given the relative racial alignments of elves and dwarves, and the fact that the dwarves had a monopoly on really large ships, it should have been the dwarves who were the dominant imperial race. They'd have worked just as well as the one side of the Unhuman Wars based on racial antagonisms. The lawful dwarves would naturally be organized and impose law and order. As skilled craftsmen they would have the natural "industrial base" to maintain a large fleet of metal, stone, and crystal ships with cleric helmsmen. And with forges in Citadels they would have the biggest capital ships to put into decisive battles. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 02:22:26
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IMO, I think they were trying to replicate (a little) what WH40K had going on with the 'Eldar'.
But I totally agree with you - the dwarves would have made more sense as the 'Monolithic space empire'. They have even more enemies than the elves (same enemies as elves + giants), they have highly structured culture (which you've pointed out), and they LIKE BIG ROCKS... which are all planetary bodies are!
So instead of using the race that just loves finding new chunks of rock (planets) to tunnel into, they use a race that loves trees, and nature... and thought they were a good fit for 'space' (ya know... where NOTHING grows...).
If they ever decide to redo SJ for 5th edition, aside from making it a 'planer' thing (which is a more natural fit for D&D), they should definitely say the IEN is on the decline, and the 'Dwarven Collective' is on the rise. Dwarves riding 'Rogue planets' into systems would just be awesome. "Thats no moon..." 
EDIT:
And now I just had a picture pop in my head of the Dwarven Homeworld... that looks like giant dwarf-head! (because they can't help themselves - they would have carved their entire planet into a statue), with engines on the back! No-one's ever found the Legendary Dwarven Homeworld because it moves. 
Imagine waking up one day on Toril (or Oerth, or Krynn, etc), looking up, and see a giant dwarf head in the sky. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2017 02:38:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 03:05:12
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I'd think massive dwarven asteroid-stronghold-ships wouldn't really need speed and agility. They only need enough mobility to hold station (vs gravity or other influences) or to set onto a long slow (mostly drifting) course towards a destination.
But then again dwarves are a pragmatic, militant, highly territorial, moderately aggressive, and somewhat bellicose race. Especially when lured by racial enemies, rich ores, and strong drink. What better way to live in space than in and on a thousand-ton rock which serves as hearth and home, forge and factory? What can you really do with empty "space" anyhow? An armed (and armored) space mountain decisively "owns" all the space in range of its guns, let your enemies (foolishly) bring their flimsy flammable ships to you. Dwarves may covet control of more asteroids (and the metals contained therein) but I doubt they'd have much interest in maintaining control over vast expanses of "worthless" territory (unproductive and lacking in "useful" resources), much the same way they tend to rarely venture far from their strongholds on planetary surfaces. |
[/Ayrik] |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 06:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But I totally agree with you - the dwarves would have made more sense as the 'Monolithic space empire'. They have even more enemies than the elves (same enemies as elves + giants), they have highly structured culture (which you've pointed out), and they LIKE BIG ROCKS... which are all planetary bodies are!
The elves don't have a monolithic space empire. It is a loose and widely stretched organization that polices the well-traveled space lanes, but their focus is on the threat from the goblinoids mostly. If anything, the "empire" (likely a human appellation) is more of a confederacy; a loose over-arching military force designed mostly to protect the autonomous elven states and colonies throughout the known spheres, such as Evermeet. Many spheres under the supposed dominion of the IEN have just one man-o-war to patrol the whole sphere. There are more empires than just the "conquer everything in sight/rule with an iron fist" types. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 13:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
So many different kinds of helms, all these and more! "Spelljammers", "psijammers", "lifejammers" ... and others ... all converting magic, faith, thought, feeling, or life itself (of some kind or other) into raw motive propulsion through space.
Spelljammer helms are typically powered by (memorized) spells. So things like furnace helms which burn magical scrolls or items (and arti-furnace helms which "forever" burn "indestructible" artifacts) are logical extensions. Things like "psijammer" and "lifejammer" helms (along with living "orbus" helms and unliving "death helms") are also grasped fairly easily.
The workings of sturdy "forge helms" powered by dwarven industry and steampunk-like (highly complex, highly inefficient) "tinker helms" invented by gnomish tinkers seem less clear but they add variety and flavour. There's even Viking-styled longships powered through space by oarsmen. One vessel is even powered by feeding the (small, loud, angry, and always hungry) god/idol it carries onboard. There are supposedly non-magical (technological) helms/engines. There are perhaps the "silver helms" of the giths. There's even helms and ships which are themselves alive and/or artifacts of minor or major power.
I recall the hit point drain of lifejammers was temporary, basically just a form of damage which would heal over time - unless the drain was allowed to be complete and fatal - in which case, of course, the lost life wouldn't heal.
I always had issue with priests using helms, indeed with faith-powered helms of any sort, specifically when the deity (or whatever) they worship lacks any power or presence outside particular crystal spheres. I would think that "faithjammers" would be encouraged as a wonderfully self-reliant way of spreading a deity's influence across spheres and worlds ... and also discouraged for exactly the same reason.
That is a good point with the artifurnace. Essentially, the variation in shadow of the spider moon in which all helms just "have" the power to run makes all helms kind of the equivalent of artifurnaces. Not that that's particularly wrong, but it does show that the concept was out there, and it was considered so powerful that it required an artifact to do (because even regular magic items weren't strong enough to power a helm and would get burned up).
On that topic, I can see Chosen of Mystra destroying regular furnace helms if they found them... one of the few times where they'd want to destroy magic.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Sep 2017 13:37:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 13:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IMO, I think they were trying to replicate (a little) what WH40K had going on with the 'Eldar'.
But I totally agree with you - the dwarves would have made more sense as the 'Monolithic space empire'. They have even more enemies than the elves (same enemies as elves + giants), they have highly structured culture (which you've pointed out), and they LIKE BIG ROCKS... which are all planetary bodies are!
So instead of using the race that just loves finding new chunks of rock (planets) to tunnel into, they use a race that loves trees, and nature... and thought they were a good fit for 'space' (ya know... where NOTHING grows...).
If they ever decide to redo SJ for 5th edition, aside from making it a 'planer' thing (which is a more natural fit for D&D), they should definitely say the IEN is on the decline, and the 'Dwarven Collective' is on the rise. Dwarves riding 'Rogue planets' into systems would just be awesome. "Thats no moon..."
EDIT:
And now I just had a picture pop in my head of the Dwarven Homeworld... that looks like giant dwarf-head! (because they can't help themselves - they would have carved their entire planet into a statue), with engines on the back! No-one's ever found the Legendary Dwarven Homeworld because it moves.
Imagine waking up one day on Toril (or Oerth, or Krynn, etc), looking up, and see a giant dwarf head in the sky.
And they'd articulate the mouth so it could "talk".... ooo, and eat small spelljammers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 14:29:58
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@sleyvas -
There are significant downsides with "artifurnace" helms.
Artifacts are one-of-a-kind objects of immeasurable power. But they bring along a lot of baggage - a long history of "personal" interest/attention from certain gods or powerfully godlike beings/characters, and they invariably attract the attentions of those who seek to possess or protect or destroy them, and (just to make things even worse) they are often intimately associated with certain other artifacts (along with all the problems those artifacts cause or attract). More than that, artifacts typically have conscious and "sentient" and utterly indomitable (and often quite malign) intellects with greater ambitions than being plugged into an engine, they would actively seek to change their situation through any opportunity they can exploit and any means they can manipulate. Even artifurnaces are themselves items of artifact-level power, "fated" to cause or attract yet more artifact-level problems. The Eye of Vecna would seem to be a fine source of fuel to burn between worlds and spheres ... until (as always happens) it eventually crosses paths with somebody/something bearing the Hand of Vecna (or some other body part of Vecna) or swinging the Sword of Kas or even <gasp!> some manifestation or machination of Vecna Himself.
The other artifurnace-like helms you mention don't involve these sorts of (inevitable, unavoidable, irresistible, inescapable) complications. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 14:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On that topic, I can see Chosen of Mystra destroying regular furnace helms if they found them... one of the few times where they'd want to destroy magic.
I'm not as sure. Removing magical items from circulation isn't destroying the knowledge, and it in fact creates a demand for more magical items. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 15:51:05
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"Create a demand for more magical items."
I'd never thought of Mystra being a totalitarian sort of goddess. Destroying magical items and constructs (and perhaps also burning magical scrolls and spellbooks) limits supply and creates demand. Encourages more cycles of magical research and magical construction projects. Employs more mages. Stimulates the magical economy with higher prices. Also stimulates the nonmagical economy with increased demand for scribes and paper and glassware and talismongers and skilled tradesmen/craftsmen capable of producing masterpieces. Even stimulates the "undereconomy" with increased need for the special services of rogues and thieves of any kind able to procure particular difficult-to-find materials through "other" channels.
Admittedly a reductio ad absurdum thought exercise. But still ... a Mystra-sanctioned "scorched magic" policy offers some interesting insights. We have "Luddites" who (at least originally) opposed technology based on how the endless progress of automation displaces workers and jobs. I wonder if "Anti-Mystrans" ("Demystics", "Unweavers"?) would oppose magical innovations which disrupt their (unskilled, uneducated) economies?
I can't imagine *any* time a true Mystran would want to destroy magic. Although, to be sure, there are plenty of magics better left unknown and unused by mortals (and perhaps gods alike) which Mystrans might secret away in all sorts of hidden or protected places in (or "near") the Realms ... much like elves do, lol. Are there catacombs or vaults filled with terrible magical secrets under every Mystran Temple in every city in Cormyr?
Remember that Mystra is also eponymously a goddess of Mystery. Secrets. Arcane knowledge. Some overlap with Leira and Oghma, perhaps, but then ... maybe they don't even know The Lady has secrets, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Sep 2017 15:55:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 16:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
@sleyvas -
There are significant downsides with "artifurnace" helms.
Artifacts are one-of-a-kind objects of immeasurable power. But they bring along a lot of baggage - a long history of "personal" interest/attention from certain gods or powerfully godlike beings/characters, and they invariably attract the attentions of those who seek to possess or protect or destroy them, and (just to make things even worse) they are often intimately associated with certain other artifacts (along with all the problems those artifacts cause or attract). More than that, artifacts typically have conscious and "sentient" and utterly indomitable (and often quite malign) intellects with greater ambitions than being plugged into an engine, they would actively seek to change their situation through any opportunity they can exploit and any means they can manipulate. Even artifurnaces are themselves items of artifact-level power, "fated" to cause or attract yet more artifact-level problems. The Eye of Vecna would seem to be a fine source of fuel to burn between worlds and spheres ... until (as always happens) it eventually crosses paths with somebody/something bearing the Hand of Vecna (or some other body part of Vecna) or swinging the Sword of Kas or even <gasp!> some manifestation or machination of Vecna Himself.
The other artifurnace-like helms you mention don't involve these sorts of (inevitable, unavoidable, irresistible, inescapable) complications.
good points. In fact, this would make artifurnaces even more interesting, so giving a reason for someone to WANT one made becomes a quandary if the other kind exists. Yet, these artifurnaces essentially open up potential plots for you as a result. After all, it might be interesting to find out that the "galley of the gods" that the Mulan gods came to realmspace in was fueled by an artifurnace..... or that someone has one of the Imaskarcana and has adapted it to an artifurnace.... or maybe someone intelligent artifact decides to hijack its ship. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Spelljammer - Quad of Thay sources
