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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 13:52:04
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So, I know in the old war captain's companion that the red wizards had a very fast spelljammer that they had only recently developed, and I'm specifically targeting these spelljammers to Mythrell'aa and trying to shore up some lore to surround them. However, the only canon source I can find is the Spelljammer book War Captain's Companion. That being said, I see this site on the web, and it has a beautiful picture that's so much better than the one on the war captain's companion AND it also has deck plans
http://lost.spelljammer.org/bwafer/quadthay.html
Does anyone know, was there some other source besides the war captain's companion that details these? I'm interested to see if there was any kind of plot dealing with them that I just need to thread my needle through.
BTW, given that these were known for use in smuggling AND my intended use is to have them tied to the (formerly lost) netherese city of doubloon (renamed Luneira) AND having them tied to Mythrell'aa, I intend to throw in two things on these ships which were "hidden/undocumented" features.... basically a cloak (invisibility) and a very big displacement effect (because a minor shift of something this size wouldn't help).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 16:30:23
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I think the War Captain's Companion boxed set is the only source for that ship.
The pic and deck plans from that site are from the War Captain's Companion boxed set. It was on one of the included card stock sheets.
The Triop was my fave from that set. |
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Spectralballoons
Acolyte
Pakistan
48 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 17:28:47
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| Oooh, Spelljammer. I'd like some help in reconciling normal Spelljammer with 4e Spelljammer, if someone could be so kind as to help me? The explanation for the Planes changing for no good reason give at http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=40 was decent, but I haven't been able to find anything similar for Spelljammer. |
Edited by - Spectralballoons on 14 Sep 2017 17:30:57 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2481 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 18:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
Oooh, Spelljammer. I'd like some help in reconciling normal Spelljammer with 4e Spelljammer, if someone could be so kind as to help me? The explanation for the Planes changing for no good reason give at http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=40 was decent, but I haven't been able to find anything similar for Spelljammer.
The planes did not change "for no reason". It was specifically stated that the Spellplague changed the nature of the planes, in both the 4e Campaign Guide and in the novels of the time.
Dunno how they deal with it in the postSundering Realms, but at least in 4e, there was a novel stating that the Spellplague had changed the nature of the Astral Plane when it destroyed the World Tree (IIRC, was one of the Empyrean Odyssey novels).
On topic, dunno. But perhaps Big Mac on the Piazza can help you with that. He is very knowledgeable about Spelljammer. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Sep 2017 18:31:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 18:46:19
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Interesting.
The Red Wizards built a 'Death Star'. 
MUCH smaller, of course.
As much as I like the concept, I've never felt the SJ lore meshed well with FR, and this is a prime example; we have hundreds of spacefaring races, all trying to come up with new and better designs, and the Arcane (Mercane) have a near-monopoly on the most common type, and along comes Thay and they just whip one up.
Just not buying it.
Plus, if they had that sort of tech, why wouldn't they be employing it to wipe-out their enemies? 'Flying Ships' can come in pretty damn handy in a war.
In my own stuff, I've spun the whole Spelljamming thing as a misconception: That they've really been flying through the Ethereal the whole time (thus, its really a form of 'Planesjamming' - "sailing the Ethereal Seas"). Just by respinning that one thing, it makes the whole concept 'smell' better in regards to FR (more like how Elric was getting around in one of Michael Moorcock's novels).
Same goes for Shou Lung's Dragonships - why the heck would they need that portal in the Dragonmere at all, if they can just fly wherever they wanted? It makes no sense. Plus, they can 'sail' from the Dragonmere straight to the Sword Coast - do you know what that would do to trade? They'd dominate every market!
We need an extremely rare element (like ST's 'Dilithium Crystals') that you need to phase-shift into the Ethereal, and make the ships fly. Something insanely rare, and that gets 'used up' after a time (that would make their existence feasible without tanking the whole economy of the planet). And I'm not just talking about the Thayans - I mean ALL Spelljammers should need that stuff (and it shouldn't even be available on Toril... maybe somewhere else in Realmspace). So perhaps some Mercane showed-up at a Thaymart and traded a very tiny quantity of the stuff to them for some other Red Wizard 'toys'. That means they can only build that ONE ship. I'd accept that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2017 23:41:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 20:13:01
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The Quad of Thay did have the huge disadvantage of not being able to leave Realmspace under its own power.
I personally think the Arcane monopoly on helms comes from a unique element being involved in their construction; that's why only the Arcane can make them -- only they know of and have access to that element. Everyone else has either found a less-powerful workaround (lifejammers, furnace helms) or they've had to deal with the Arcane. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 23:49:23
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Something like 'Ęther Crystals', mined in the Ethereal, they have unique resonance with that plane, and allow ships to 'drop out' of normal space/time. The Arcane (Mercane) may even be native to that plane, and keep it a closely guarded secret.
Even in other devices than a helm, they'd have that affect; wearing something with a crystal could allow you the benefits of shifting into the Ethereal same as the spell (and BTW, it doesn't have to be the Ethereal - it could be its own, unique thing. I just decided to repurpose the Ethereal, since 3e {or was it 4e?} seems to have dropped its existence from the rules). There could be other benefits as well (I'm thinking about how the translator crystals worked in the Wellworld series, or even as a way of boosting summoning spells, etc). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2481 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 00:40:17
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The Ethereal is still in 5e. Only 4e deemed it unnecessary (as I do, as well).
As for the Spelljamming stuff, what makes the existence of Spelljammers in the Realms any different from the Halruaan flying ships? You mention that having flying ships will make you own the market across the world, but Halruaa wasn't the master of commerce in Faerūn even before the Spellplague. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Sep 2017 00:41:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 00:58:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Interesting.
The Red Wizards built a 'Death Star'.
MUCH smaller, of course.
As much as I like the concept, I've never felt the SJ lore meshed well with FR, and this is a prime example; we have hundreds of spacefaring races, all trying to come up with new and better designs, and the Arcane (Mercane) have a near-monopoly on the most common type, and along comes Thay and they just whip one up.
Just not buying it.
Plus, if they had that sort of tech, why wouldn't they be employing it to wipe-out their enemies? 'Flying Ships' can come in pretty damn handy in a war.
In my own stuff, I've spun the whole Spelljamming thing as a misconception: That they've really been flying through the Ethereal the whole time (thus, its really a form of 'Planesjamming' - "sailing the Ethereal Seas"). Just by respinning that one thing, it makes the whole concept 'smell' better in regards to FR (more like how Elric was getting around in one of Michael Moorcock's novels).
Same goes for Shou Lung's Dragonships - why the heck would they need that portal in the Dragonmere at all, if they can just fly wherever they wanted? It makes no sense. Plus, they can 'sail' from the Dragonmere straight to the Sword Coast - do you know what that would do to trade? They'd dominate every market!
We need an extremely rare element (like ST's 'Dilithium Crystals') that you need to phase-shift into the Ethereal, and make the ships fly. Something insanely rare, and that gets 'used up' after a time (that would make their existence feasible without tanking the whole economy of the planet). And I'm not just talking about the Thayans - I mean ALL Spelljammers should need that stuff (and it shouldn't even be available on Toril... maybe somewhere else in Realmspace). So perhaps some Mercane showed-up at a Thaymart and traded a very tiny quantity of the stuff to them for some other Red Wizard 'toys'. That means they can only build that ONE ship. I'd accept that.
Nah, definitely not a deathstar. More like a big tie fighter with no weapons.
I'll admit, I was surprised to see it too. However, given that I'm basically having one Zulkir who is familiar with spelljamming (i.e. not sure if the rest of Thay really knows about this), and she's very much the secretive type.... these kind of fit her.
Actually, nothing says the red wizards made the helm. They simply designed the ship that the helm attached to and worked on how the helm got its power to allow multiple casters.
That being said, the ship was fast but had little in the way of power. It was noted as being horrible for intership battles. It also couldn't leave the crystal sphere. So, basically it was nothing more than a glorified transport, cargo ship, or smuggler's vessel... and with a huge cost comparably. It might be useful for say dumping a bunch of slaves on an asteroid with food and water and air and making them mine it.... which would be a d*ck move, but....Because of this, I can't see these being used for warfare
I can however see these vessels, equipped with some kind of invisibility and transporting at night, bringing things clandestinely between Thayan enclaves. In fact, now that I think on it more... this could really fit the guild of foreign trade. Hell, since they were attempting to dominate trade, maybe they were successful in exactly the way you described and nobody knew this was part of the source because they kept it secret.
BTW, now that I know the war captain's book is the only source, I'm picturing there being no more than say six of these in existence up in Luneira. Maybe some other red wizards had access to some, but I'd imagine the grand total for the whole country couldn't amount to more than 15 and would probably be closer to ten. In fact, I had written up what I pictured as the "navy" of Doubloon/Luneira a day or two ago and I came up with the following. Most of the ships are either single man or can only hold a small group, so they're essentially the "pickup truck" or "cargo van" of the sky. They will be from the people who were hiding out on Doubloon prior to Zulkir Mythrell'aa finding the Netherese enclave hiding in the sky. The only other big cargo ships will be a few they stole from Kara-tur sources.
In total, the tharch of Luneira has six of these Quad vessels, which it primarily uses as large cargo vessels for transport with surface tharchs. Luneira also possesses several dozen other spelljamming vessels, including at least several dozen single pilot mosquitos, a dozen dragonflies and damselflies, two captured Shou dragonships, and a fully functioning Wa caterpillar complete with a complement of thirty six locusts.
The intent behind the Shou and Wa ships was for the Thayans to have secretly have taken these vessels and supplied "intelligence" to the other side saying that the enemy had stolen them, thus generating more conflict between Shou Lung and Wa. This fits with how the Zulkir of Illusion (whom I've having as an ardent follower of Leira) would play things from her invisible city in the sky. This would have occurred right before the spellplague and plays into something else I have going on. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Sep 2017 01:14:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 02:30:12
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I thought it had some sort of big, 'mega-weapon' it charged-up? I have to admit, I sped-read through it, so I may have misinterpreted something in the ship's entry.
As for why Halruaa's skyships don't ruin the economy - theirs are just used as transport, 'outings' (like a yacht), or defense. They are rarely ever seen outside Halruaa. Shou-Lung ships, however, are all about trade, and expanding their markets, and they are known in most crystal spheres (although one can assume Kara-Tur isn't the only Psuedo-Asian culture sending those things up - probably most spheres with such cultures are, and one - Jadespace - is primarily THAT culture). So why be so concerned with controlling a portal right off Cormyr's coast, when they can just fly there anytime? or anywhere else, for that matter?
It ONLY makes sense if there was some sort of 'fuel' involved that was rare and perishable (can be 'used up'). Thus, they would prefer to use more conventional means when available.
Thay only having one of those, and its limitations, I can live with. Still, it just seems like something so weird for them to have. I picture Szass Tam flying around in a Tie-fighter that looks like a skull. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Sep 2017 05:24:31 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2431 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 03:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Plus, if they had that sort of tech, why wouldn't they be employing it to wipe-out their enemies? 'Flying Ships' can come in pretty damn handy in a war.
It's just too dangerous and expensive. RTFM "spelljamming shock". And "TPK". 
Some still did. See "The Three Greenwing Wars", and why the place of the 3rd battle was renamed to "Monarch's Fall Glade".
quote:
Plus, they can 'sail' from the Dragonmere straight to the Sword Coast - do you know what that would do to trade? They'd dominate every market!
And everyone else would just stand and gasp looking how they dominate every market? And when they dump or collect enough of coin to affect the local economy in general at both ends - unless there are comparable costs for goods to be moved the other way? 
Spelljamming is great investment, but a great risk too.
There are several good reasons why 'jammers are reluctant to land (on inhabited planets) anywhere but established ports, and when they have to go elsewhere, sneak around. Unknown weather patterns, aerial monsters, greedy or paranoid people...
These ships for most part aren't designed to fly around in atmosphere, just land and take off in "let's get it over with" manner. And the requirements would be harder if they also need to conceal this fact.
Also, while there are a few "killer" goods that at the same time has great demand and won't quickly saturate the market on the same planet, landing and and taking off take a large part of risk and time in SJ travel, thus at this point it's not a bad idea to go sell your stuff on another planet, which would have a much longer list of goods for which there's simply no source except spelljammers - and it's more likely to have exotic goods that can be sold back at home. Both points mean more possible partners and less enemies.
Conversely, normal ships are sufficient to carry lots of cargo across a sea for good enough profits, have logistics already sorted out, don't attract too much of attention, and when one or two are lost at sea... well, it's sad, but not crippling for a big merchant guild.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally think the Arcane monopoly on helms comes from a unique element being involved in their construction;
There shouldn't be any "hard" monopoly, between relevant spells being common and dead Q'nidar being usable as a minor helm - RAW, without even an enchantment.
Which leaves the other possibility: many can create a helm, but no one else can make helms for the same cost Arcane sell them. And given that the price is exorbitant as it is, there probably aren't many entities able and willing to sponsor a prolonged experimental study in this area, and it's no wonder if those who try workarounds stop wasting funds soon after the first reliable prototype at most (all those fancy engines that aren't basic helms or furnaces). Grand Helm and Pump are good examples, in that they have awesome advantages, but are prohibitively expensive even compared to basic helms. Even EIN gave up, seeing how cloaking helm was a joint project (IIRC).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, nothing says the red wizards made the helm. They simply designed the ship that the helm attached to and worked on how the helm got its power to allow multiple casters.
The only other known way to achieve 2xSJ speed is Valdicks Spheresail (10-level Netherese spell), and using several wizards fits Thayan circle magic tradition. I'd guess that they found a source of Netherese lore, tried to create an equivalent of Valdicks Spheresail, and after adding workarounds (circle magic and phasing) had partial success.
quote:
That being said, the ship was fast but had little in the way of power.
I suppose for most part it can avoid fighting, and when not, there are summons and old good "teleport + delayed blast fireball" trick. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 04:11:07
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| The spells were 6th and 7th level, which isn't exactly common, and had a duration of weeks, at most. Not only that, but there was a tonnage limitation -- up to 3 times the caster level, in tons. The helms sold by the Arcane were permanent, did not require having a high-level caster handy, and for a major helm, could go up to 100 tons. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 12:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought it had some sort of big, 'mega-weapon' it charged-up? I have to admit, I sped-read through it, so I may have misinterpreted something in the ship's entry.
As for why Halruaa's skyships don't ruin the economy - theirs are just used as transport, 'outings' (like a yacht), or defense. They are rarely ever seen outside Halruaa. Shou-Lung ships, however, are all about trade, and expanding their markets, and they are known in most crystal spheres (although one can assume Kara-Tur isn't the only Psuedo-Asian culture sending those things up - probably most spheres with such cultures are, and one - Jadespace - is primarily THAT culture). So why be so concerned with controlling a portal right off Cormyr's coast, when they can just fly there anytime? or anywhere else, for that matter?
It ONLY makes sense if there was some sort of 'fuel' involved that was rare and perishable (can be 'used up'). Thus, they would prefer to use more conventional means when available.
Thay only having one of those, and its limitations, I can live with. Still, it just seems like something so weird for them to have. I picture Szass Tam flying around in a Tie-fighter that looks like a skull.
Yeah, I see why you were confused. At a glance, the four blades that surround it look like they'd be for focusing a laser.. which given that the helm has a big gem at the center, it kind of looks it even more. However, what those blades and that gem are for is focusing the energy of four wizards working in concert (essentially via a circle) to "overclock" the helm to make it go faster than most other things in the sky. So, in essence, the red wizards didn't make a weapon, they made a stripped down drag racer that's big enough to hold some decent cargo. However, its at almost quadruple the cost of a similar spelljammer that would have weapons mounted, so monetarily they'd do better buying 4 smaller ones and letting each individual wizard pilot their own.... except that this is meant essentially only for smuggling and/or getting somewhere fast (i.e. they don't see the need to fight in space... just leave your enemies in you wake).
BTW, I think you will really like this piece of the description of it given what you said earlier.
When travelling at spelljamming speeds, a Quad is unaffected by the gravity planes of bodies smaller than 200 tons. Normally a spelljamming ship encountering a body of 10 tons or larger must drop to tactical speeds, but due to the magical disturbance which allows the Quad of Thay to travel at such great speeds, the ship actually phases in and out the border ethereal, so it passes right by gravity planes created by smaller objects as if they (or it) did not exist . Likewise, a spelljammer travelling close to a Quad of Thay would not be dropped to tactical speeds unless the Quad itself drops out of spelljamming speeds. Very large ships, and other bodies of 200 tons or larger will drop the Quad of Thay to tactical speeds. When this occurs, all the mages (and priests if present) will band together to increase the ship's SR, and attempt to outrun any attacks.
So, essentially, the red wizards are using the ethereal to achieve star trek's warp speeds or star wars light speeds. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 13:11:50
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Hey, since I'm spelljammer deficient.... was there ever any decent items that you could see these red wizards putting in as "aftermarket add-ons" to these ships? I've already mentioned that I'm interested in them having the ability to turn invisible to possibly hide their comings and goings (even enclaves that receive shipments from them may not know where the stuff came from if they can load up all the cargo into say a dozen or so bags of holding and have some kind of dimensional door pad that can transport them out of the ship such that they just "appear" in the warehouse of an enclave (maybe enclaves use some kind of key that allows it to bypass the normal restrictions of magical transportation within an enclave.... then again, most enclaves might not be restricted for magical transportation WITHIN the enclave).
Anyway, back to the original question.... spelljammer magic items that I might want to look at...
cloaking/invisibility devices for a ship?
anything that displaces a ship like a displacer beast?
anything that covers a ship temporarily with either the illusion of an asteroid OR creates an actual exterior shell of rock without touching the ship and leaving the interior filled with air?
anything that might surround a ship with the equivalent of an airy water spell for going under the ocean?
anything that simply summons fresh air?
anything that might protect them from an extremely fiery environment?
anything else that was just really cool as far as items that I should go read?
Hmmm, and something that just popped in my head.... what do you think the surface of the king killer star would be like.... and might there be something worth mining on it? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 15:58:45
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I'm not familiar with anything that displaced a ship... There was a cloaking helm in Dragon 159. It created an illusion of empty space, so not true invisibility. This is the only disguising I can think of, off the top of my head, other than the illusions the Smalljammers could create.
For air creation, the same issue had the cabinet of air restoration. Lost Ships, from Ed's pen, had the crown of the void, which would also produce air.
I don't recall anything for fire protection or airy water.
As for other cool stuff, there's a fair amount of that. I particularly liked the accelerator and the antenna of triangulation, both from The War Captain's Companion. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6669 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 16:02:23
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Check out Steven Schend's article "Magic From the Stars" in Dragon #159.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 17:12:11
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With so many red wizards already on deck why not add an extra illusionist specialist handling all the cloaking and displacement spells? Veil at sufficiently high casterlevel can cover the cloaking (making the ship appear as the night skies).
Onboard the vessel there already is an ethereal jaunting device, so perhaps air-travel is done mostly in ethereal form? |
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Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 18:38:44
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Why would you need Airy Water?
I'm the furthest thing from an SJ expert, but I do recall that the ships traveled with their own envelope of air - I don't think that would get disrupted just because they went below a body of water. I could be entirely wrong, of course.
@Sleyvas - I think that the roofs of the enclaves could be designed to accommodate landings. Then if the ship was able to approach 'cloaked', the 'low levs' running the enclave needn't really know how the merchandise gets delivered to the roofs. Basically, the 'shop' would be on the ground floor, and the 'warehouse' (back room) would be upstairs. Then they merely need a hatch going to the roof and they can pass the cargo down.
I recall there being some sort of cool 'compass', probably in the War Captain's Companion (but I never read that - i learned about it {I think} from Rich Baker's Blades of the Moonsea series). I think it was able to give a normal ship SJ capabilities.
Conjecture: What if the Imaskari built the Spelljammer, just to prove they could?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Sep 2017 19:04:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 19:08:35
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Spelljamming vessels didn't create air envelopes, the gravity of the ship held a bubble of air around the ship as it traversed the void -- so as soon as the ship touched water, the air would be displaced by the water.
The triop -- one of my favorite spelljammer ship types -- was noteworthy for having a limited (just a few minutes) ability to submerge.
As I recall (and I could be mistaken; I've replaced the books but not read them since before the fire), the Cloakmaster Cycle novels implied an origin for the Spelljammer that rather predated the Imaskari. Given its unique nature, I'm more inclined to think it's got some sort of divine origin -- perhaps the original Spelljammer was the last remnants of a fallen god or pantheon, or something like that. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Sep 2017 19:11:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 19:24:52
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Well, yeah, I was thinking along those lines as well, except I was thinking the Imaskari bound some 'Celestial Manta' (primordial?) to do their bidding. They did bind at least one 'Elder Evil' (Pandorym), so I don't think that would be beyond their capabilities, and the ship is considered 'alive'. Basically, I was looking at the city on top (from the cover of that issue of Dragon GK recommended) and it just screamed 'Imaskari' at me. Of course, lots of cultures build Middle-Eastern(ish) cities. It was just a random thought, nothing more (like Rip Van Wormer's conjecture about how Imaskar created Sigil).
Reading the Wiki, one thing I either never knew or had forgotten was that The Spelljammer creates its own portals - at will - in ANY sphere it wants, with NO restrictions. That means it can enter and exit 'closed' spheres. Possibly even enter the 'out of sync' space of Abeir. These portals are also permanent. I would think that an ability like that would give an Overgod nightmares (because it doesn't matter what 'switch' and Overgod throws, if a god wanted to enter Realmspace - or anywhere else for that matter - all they'd have to do is ride the Spelljammer in). Its just one of those things that are 'above the rules', and I find (D&D) stuff like that fascinating. Its a good thing it doesn't Planesjam (as far as we know). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2017 05:28:44 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 03:47:39
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That the Sea of Fallen Stars book implies (in the description of an underwater lich's tower) that air envelopes are not a natural property of the ship, which is incorrect, and that might be where some people are getting the misconception from. Air envelopes aren't sealed against entry in any way; anything can enter them, and they mingle with any other gas; entering a planet's atmosphere that is poisonous will foul a ship's air envelope, and landing on a world with no atmosphere will immediately "equalize" with nothing, draining away a ship's atmosphere entirely.
The original Spelljammer is older than any of the 2nd Edition campaign settings, although the current Spelljammer is a descendant of the original (it is a creature, rather than a ship). However, the original was born some four million years ago if I remember correctly (it is certainly more than 3 million years old, as that is the age of the Juna, who were thought to be the creators of the Spelljammer before the truth was revealed in the end of the Cloakmaster Cycle). Basically, the Spelljammer is too old to have any origin in *any* of the established campaign settings.
The Spelljammer is extremely powerful, and it has an atmosphere that charms creatures who enter it; even elves lose their resistance within it. I'm not sure deities would be immune. It's possible that deities don't know how it would affect them, and are unwilling to risk it. Using the Spelljammer to travel to a new sphere would also mean moving through the Phlogiston, which would be VERY disconcerting to them, and could possibly weaken them.
I'm not sure overgods would really be worried about it; they could seal the portals behind the Spelljammer if they wanted, and they determine whether deities can gain access to the sphere. I don't see how a rogue god would be able to do anything about that, even if they hitched a ride on the Spelljammer.
Overall, the Spelljammer should probably be seen as a creature of near-divine status. Just as the Elder Evils haven't been or can't be killed, neither can the Spelljammer (permanently at least).
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 05:39:43
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Well, at least I was right on a couple of points - thanks for chiming in JG. I hadn't considered the Phlogiston aspect - that would probably give a god headaches. I think it would be immune to the gas-effect, though; a 'god' isn't technically 'alive' (more like the highest tier of 'undead', or perhaps 'unliving' would be closer to the mark). So, if constructs and undead wouldn't be affected, neither would gods, I would imagine (perhaps a demipower who only has a physical form).
But another thing I learned (don't ever point me to a Dragon I hadn't read... I was even looking up maps from ancient video game ads!) is that spacefarers call people 'floating in the void' (dead or alive) "Daveys", and that made me think of Davey Jones and PotC. And then I thought, wouldn't DJ (from PotC) make a GREAT illithid antagonist in an SJ game?
Give him a REAL Flying Dutchman! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 16:13:34 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 08:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
With so many red wizards already on deck why not add an extra illusionist specialist handling all the cloaking and displacement spells? Veil at sufficiently high casterlevel can cover the cloaking (making the ship appear as the night skies).
Onboard the vessel there already is an ethereal jaunting device, so perhaps air-travel is done mostly in ethereal form?
Writing it up for 5th edition, and in that edition I don't believe there is yet a spell capable of this (a lot is still missing). So, I'm kind of looking for previous magic items that perform the function to explain away the functions I feel I'd like the ships to have. Plus, if its going to be a basic function that the ships casters may need even if their main caster is taken out, having it as an item helps. So, I figured, hey let's see if there's already something out there and I can just reuse the name and give cred to the designers of the past. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 08:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Check out Steven Schend's article "Magic From the Stars" in Dragon #159.
-- George Krashos
Thanks Krash.
Hmmm, atmosphere cloak. Check. Cabinet of Air restoration. Check. Everfull Cask.. made by priests of Eldath even.. check. Mage shot is in realmspace. check.
Cloaking Helm... interesting... so only the arcane are selling said helms... yet this Grand Helm that uses etherealness isn't made by the arcane... and I'm having it designed by the Zulkir of Illusion... so yeah, what I'm picturing is not as good as this cloaking helm (just invis), but still interesting. Plus, I'd be making it simply an additional device, not part of the helm itself.
Figurehead of wondrous power -- I like the idea of a couple "figurehead of attacks" so that the mages can be tied to their helms but effectively have a golem like construst that their minds can "drive" to defend themselves in desperation. Of course, they'll have "Thayan" knights too, but this way they aren't at the mercy of the "Thayan" knights. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2431 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 20:30:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hey, since I'm spelljammer deficient.... was there ever any decent items that you could see these red wizards putting in as "aftermarket add-ons" to these ships?
Lots, but few mesh well with the equipment or doctrine "have a phasing helm, why stop for every elf".
quote:
and have some kind of dimensional door pad that can transport them out of the ship such that they just "appear" in the warehouse of an enclave
That's pretty much what Aurora does. Without flying ships.
quote:
Anyway, back to the original question.... spelljammer magic items that I might want to look at...
cloaking/invisibility devices for a ship?
Only cloaking helm, and imperfectly.
quote:
anything that covers a ship temporarily with either the illusion of an asteroid OR creates an actual exterior shell of rock without touching the ship and leaving the interior filled with air?
Protection from scrying - a magic figurehead (but where to stick it on Quad?) and disguise (some really odd items).
Spells (Veil, Hallucinatory Terrain) do the job, if AoE covers the whole ship.
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anything that might surround a ship with the equivalent of an airy water spell for going under the ocean?
IIRC there was something, but obscure and elven.
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anything that simply summons fresh air?
A few limited items, mostly needed in the Flow, because normally air remains breathable for longer than travel inside the sphere takes.
When not shuttling between planets (or sitting on a rock without much vegetation), repeatedly casting 3rd level Airsphere (from Lost Ship, so Greenwood's) or even Wall of Fog/Fog Cloud/Obscurement is enough.
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anything else that was just really cool as far as items that I should go read?
Tons and tons. From various figureheads to heavy weapons and ammunition to detection devices. And, of course, Holds of Holding.
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what do you think the surface of the king killer star would be like.... and might there be something worth mining on it?
It's a comet IIRC. So just ice, and perhaps remnants of some previous visitors frozen in. Possibly an Oortling colony. Or a bunch of undead. There are other cold-resistant critters, but most need air refreshing and food.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
book implies (in the description of an underwater lich's tower) that air envelopes are not a natural property of the ship, which is incorrect, and that might be where some people are getting the misconception from. Air envelopes aren't sealed against entry in any way; anything can enter them, and they mingle with any other gas; entering a planet's atmosphere that is poisonous will foul a ship's air envelope, and landing on a world with no atmosphere will immediately "equalize" with nothing, draining away a ship's atmosphere entirely.
IIRC an active helm somewhat helps, in that it moves everything within the envelope and landing on an airless rock would drain the envelope once the helm is down, not just in its gravity well.
This does not mean an envelope even with helm would withstand water pressure, of course.
There were mentions of "Retain Air Envelope" spell which resists air mixing (since it was never actually printed, no details). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 01:20:38
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hmmm, so I'm looking at the 3e conversion "shadow of the spider moon", and I'm noting that they got rid of the ship rating that's so heavily dependent on the spellcasting level of the person on the helm. Also, it appears that helms don't drain the spellcaster of all magic in 3e. They also added a pilot skill that you can build. I actually find the "not totally draining the caster" as a big game changer, and for playability it makes a lot of sense (after all who wants to strap their wizard in as a player and then be unable to help in a fight). However, I don't want a helm to be some totally independently powered item just like a sword or cloak, etc... I like the idea that a spellcaster must give up some magic to the helm, and maybe this "links" him to it. So, I'm kind of thinking a hybrid thing here, where maybe he gives up a spell slot (or slots) and that maybe sets how long and/or how well he can pilot the vessel, the ship's AC, etc.... However, I also like the idea of a pilot skill, so maybe the spell(s) given helps set the bonus to his pilot skill. Along these same lines, thinking that the additional mages in a quad of thay may just serve as a circle for the spell being given up and just heighten the spell(s) level metamagically. Not exactly sure of the math involved,
While I'm not looking to build out 5e rules for spelljammer, I am intending this to be for 5e. So, has anyone seen any decent rules on DMs Guild that meshes these two concepts well? I will note that someone wrote some realmspace supplements, but he did little more than try to fill in anadia and did nothing on the rules for spelljamming. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Sep 2017 01:38:39 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 02:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for the Spelljamming stuff, what makes the existence of Spelljammers in the Realms any different from the Halruaan flying ships? You mention that having flying ships will make you own the market across the world, but Halruaa wasn't the master of commerce in Faerūn even before the Spellplague.
Halruuan skyships, per the 3e Shining South book, are dependent on the winds for their horizontal movement, and don't actually have a given speed or control rules so there could be all sorts of complications. They also don't have a defined cargo capacity.
5e airships are listed as having a speed of 8 mph and a cargo capacity of 1 ton. Further, this ton is fairly obviously (given the capacity for larger sea vessels on the same table) either something like a traditional 100 cubic foot register ton, or a measure of weight.
Speljammers move 17 miles per hour minimum (SR 1) in any direction their helmsman decides to move them; higher-level helmsmen with a major helm can increase that potentially up to 102 mph (SR 6). Further, their cargo capacity is in Spelljammer tons, which are 100 cubic yards each, and have no weight limit (but you can fit fifty tons-by-weight of wheat in a Spelljammer volume ton).
So a Shou dragonship, for example, has roughly 600 times the cargo capacity of a 5e airship if the airship's cargo ton is a matter of volume, and 1,000 times if it's a matter of weight, while traveling at least twice as fast.
But, really, this doesn't matter too much if spelljamming helms are rare enough. The real issue is if there were a number of people who could create them nearly on-demand. You know, such as if create minor helm were a 5th level cleric spell, allowing, a cleric of 9th level or higher to spend one casting of one fifth-level spell every tenday to maintain a whole fleet of ships able to make the trip from the Moonsea or Sea of Fallen Stars to the Sword Coast in less than 4 days, rendering the entire existing overland caravan trade obsolete. That would completely undercut everything in canon about trade routes and plots around them. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 02:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
hmmm, so I'm looking at the 3e conversion "shadow of the spider moon", and I'm noting that they got rid of the ship rating that's so heavily dependent on the spellcasting level of the person on the helm. Also, it appears that helms don't drain the spellcaster of all magic in 3e. They also added a pilot skill that you can build. I actually find the "not totally draining the caster" as a big game changer, and for playability it makes a lot of sense (after all who wants to strap their wizard in as a player and then be unable to help in a fight). However, I don't want a helm to be some totally independently powered item just like a sword or cloak, etc... I like the idea that a spellcaster must give up some magic to the helm, and maybe this "links" him to it. So, I'm kind of thinking a hybrid thing here, where maybe he gives up a spell slot (or slots) and that maybe sets how long and/or how well he can pilot the vessel, the ship's AC, etc.... However, I also like the idea of a pilot skill, so maybe the spell(s) given helps set the bonus to his pilot skill. Along these same lines, thinking that the additional mages in a quad of thay may just serve as a circle for the spell being given up and just heighten the spell(s) level metamagically. Not exactly sure of the math involved,
While I'm not looking to build out 5e rules for spelljammer, I am intending this to be for 5e. So, has anyone seen any decent rules on DMs Guild that meshes these two concepts well? I will note that someone wrote some realmspace supplements, but he did little more than try to fill in anadia and did nothing on the rules for spelljamming.
I always had an issue with the "sit on the helm, and you're magically useless" concept, and even more of an issue with the fact that the helm was basically described as draining magic away -- but a level 1 cleric on a minor helm moves the ship at the same interplanetary speed, for the same length of time, as a level 20 wizard on a major helm.
My solution was to take the magic drain out of it.
My spin:
Major and minor spelljamming helms contain the power to move the ship -- it's built into the helm itself, and doesn't actually require someone with spellcasting ability to use them.
However, actually controlling the helm requires focusing and directing that power that's built into it. And that kind of focus is beyond most characters -- except those who are spellcasters, because it's essentially the same thing as casting a spell.
Thus, we have the interplanetary speed issue and different level casters solved: the power is in the helm, not the caster.
Now, for tactical speed? Why are more higher level casters faster at tactical speed? Because they've got more levels, they've got more experience bending magical energies to their will. So they bend the energies of the helm to their will better than casters with fewer levels.
Next is the loss of spellcasting ability, connected with 'jamming. Instead of "your butt touched the seat, no spells until you rest!" you instead make mandatory caster checks, with an increasing DC, the longer you're on the helm. It's not that the spells are gone or anything, it's the mental strain from controlling the magics of the helm -- it mentally wears you down. So after a couple hours, you're better off not even trying your highest level spells; they'll prolly fizzle. Your mid- and lower-level spells will be tougher than normal to cast, but it's still doable. After several hours, you'll be doing good to manage even the low-level spells. Of course, once you rest, you get over that strain, and you can cast all of your spells -- which are still memorized -- without an issue.
This also allows non-wizards and non-clerics to spelljam. Since those were the main casters in 2E, the spelljamming mechanic was built with them in mind. My spin allows you to throw sorcerers and other casters into the mix -- just base everything off of their spellcasting ability. Even hybrid classes -- you could just say that they spelljam as a full caster of half their level (rounded up), or maybe do something like a flat level-4 to get their spelljamming level.
You could even half non-spellcasting helmspeople, too. Maybe make it a feat for non-casters, requiring a really high mental attribute, and the increased mental strain has physical penalties (they can't focus to stab accurately or swing with all their might).
They'll still be far less effective than a caster, but this could give you the odd rogue or warrior who could drive a ship. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 06:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
IIRC an active helm somewhat helps, in that it moves everything within the envelope and landing on an airless rock would drain the envelope once the helm is down, not just in its gravity well.
This does not mean an envelope even with helm would withstand water pressure, of course.
There were mentions of "Retain Air Envelope" spell which resists air mixing (since it was never actually printed, no details).
I can't recall anything from the core Spelljammer material like that; in fact. As I mentioned, there is some misconception that the helm has some degree of control over the air envelope, but it does not. By contrast, there are rules about the mixing of air envelopes/atmospheres, and Voidworlds are akin to Deadly air envelopes. Instead of fresh air and deadly air mixing, though, it is fresh air and no air. Unless a ship is of a similar size or larger, the air envelope would "mix" so that both objects would have an atmosphere too thin to breath. See SJA2 Skull & Crossbows page 46 for an example of this happening. To give players a chance, I would require the ship to contact a Voidworld rather than the air envelope itself, but that isn't actually by the rules.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
Edited by - AuldDragon on 19 Sep 2017 06:11:49 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 06:28:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
hmmm, so I'm looking at the 3e conversion "shadow of the spider moon", and I'm noting that they got rid of the ship rating that's so heavily dependent on the spellcasting level of the person on the helm. Also, it appears that helms don't drain the spellcaster of all magic in 3e. They also added a pilot skill that you can build. I actually find the "not totally draining the caster" as a big game changer, and for playability it makes a lot of sense (after all who wants to strap their wizard in as a player and then be unable to help in a fight). However, I don't want a helm to be some totally independently powered item just like a sword or cloak, etc... I like the idea that a spellcaster must give up some magic to the helm, and maybe this "links" him to it. So, I'm kind of thinking a hybrid thing here, where maybe he gives up a spell slot (or slots) and that maybe sets how long and/or how well he can pilot the vessel, the ship's AC, etc.... However, I also like the idea of a pilot skill, so maybe the spell(s) given helps set the bonus to his pilot skill. Along these same lines, thinking that the additional mages in a quad of thay may just serve as a circle for the spell being given up and just heighten the spell(s) level metamagically. Not exactly sure of the math involved,
Spelljamming drains the magic potential, rather than actual memorized spells (although the material can be a bit confusion); the main reason for this is because it takes longer than a day for a high-level spellcaster to memorize a full roster of spells.
I never really had a problem with it, but then, everyone I always played with tried to ensure their spellcasters could do *some* things without magic (one of the reasons slings have always been a popular wizard weapon, and from what I've seen, later editions open it up even more). But if a spellcaster doesn't want to lose their spells, they can just tell their party they don't spelljam. Let them hire NPC spellcasters to do the job. They should be doing that anyone for redundancy/24 hour piloting cycles anyway. If they have a lower SR than their opponents, so be it. It's a choice they can make.
If you really don't want a 5e spellcaster to lose *everything,* maybe allow them to retain access to their cantrips when they leave the helm.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 06:43:31
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@Wooly - Except that in 3e, it might have been simpler to take a 'dip' into a caster class then burn a feat. At least you get other goodies with it (like being able to use magical devices, etc). Thus, everyone on an SJ ship should take at least a one-level dip in a caster class, just in case. The Feat would really only come in with NPCs, I would imagine.
@Sleyvas - I like your thought-train there. I never cared for SJ (probably my least favorite setting or at least tied with Birthright for that honor). Of course, I've warmed to both over the years (4e had a way of making anything 'old' look good LOL). Anyhow, 'if' I were to put some effort into this, I would do something along the lines of what you proposed - I'd have a system wherein there was a 'Pilot' Feat/Skill, and then have a chart where the magic level of the helmsman got cross-reference with his Pilot skill level, and that would give you 'Power Level' (so different level mages could have the same power level just by having a higher Pilot skill). Then you'd have a second chart (its starting to sound like 1e/2e... I really don't miss those DM screens...) where you had 'options' available, to go along with your base power Level. For example, you can 'overburn' you magic (use spell-slots) to temporarily increase your Power Level in an emergency (come to think of it, we don't need a second Table, really, just a list of what 'Overburning' spell slots accomplishes). If you use up ALL your magic in this way, you'd have to make a system-shock roll or become one of those 'Void Zombies', or whatever.
Now, on to weapons. I had the same (MAJOR) problem with the party wizard being completely useless most of the time in SJ. Not too many players want to see their level 20 Uber-mage become 'gasoline'. So what if we built some nifty toys into the ships themselves? Or even somehow allowed the caster to use the ship as a 'focus' (like a magic wand, staff, etc) and cast spells through it. Fire a lightning bolt from the prow, or cast magic missiles out the eyes of the figurehead, etc.? And maybe with some skill (perhaps a check against his pilot skill), he could even cast spells on the ship that he normally can only cast on himself (the first thing that jumps to mind is stoneskin... stonehull). Thus, a Mage can stay 'connected' to the ship during combat, and still participate. Using the 'overburn' ability would be the same as casting a spell, so both can't be done at the same time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Sep 2017 06:45:37 |
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Spelljammer - Quad of Thay sources
