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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jun 2019 : 02:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Minor necromancy here, just poking the thread with a stick should be enough: any idea for a suitable Mulhorandi name for Siamorphe?
Also I can't remember if there is a Mulhorandi Lexicon anywhere, you can point me to it in case you know.
Yeah, a couple years back I was talking about the idea that Siamorphe's "divine right to rule" concept would make her a perfect candidate to go into Mulhorand and Unther. The idea of changing her name though didn't occur to me. However, I could see Siamorphis or Samorphis (after all they have Osiris, Isis, etc..) if you felt the need. Given that she was known for basically possessing mortal followers and using them kind of like avatars, she'd fit in quite well. In fact, when I was considering what gods "may have been in Abeir", I was actually a little upset that Siamorphe was still in Toril, because she had some plot opportunities to have Mulhorand come back with her as a ruler. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 09:07:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Had a totally mad thought regarding Set and Sseth.
So I've got Set in his later life (post exile) trailing the sarrukh / baetith outposts looking for more magical power. Now I'm theorizing that the gods of the sarrukh are actually demigods in that they were on the material plane (merrshaulk was an abomination that was split/separated into many other beings).
What if Sseth was actually Set. I mean what if Set found one of these sarrukh demigods and killed it before using its power to acquire the worship of an entire snake people (the yuan-ti).
The timings kind of fit as Sseth doesn't appear until -302 DR and Set is outcast -1048 DR so there is plenty of time for Set to go wandering.
Now how does that fit in with Set binding Sseth later on, what if it is actually Seti tracing Set's footsteps who finds the slumbering Set (still not a true god) and preys upon him in the same what that Set preyed upon the other sarrukh.
Of course all of this takes place on the material plain with actual people (or demigods) rather than true gods wandering around which isn't allowed in my version.
A bit late, but yes Sseth being Set, is a pretty neat idea. There was originally at least an ambiguity whenever Merrshaulk and Sseth the the same, and Sseth being Set infiltrating the Sarrukh/Post-Sarrukh/Yuan-Ti and other scalyfolk pantheon makes a lot of sense. And there is though the fact Thomas Costa confirmed Zehir was a transformed Set, as implied in the 5E DMG:
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Set became Zehir in 4E to survive as one of the Faerunian pantheon.
This makes me wonder, is Zehir could bee Set wrestling back control from Seti, with the Storm of Zehir video game, being his preparation for that, as well as the disappearance of the Mulhorandi pantheon (which removed Seti?).
Curiously it was mentioned in 4E core setting, Merrshaulk is in Zehir's realms, and his servant of sorts. It's an alternate setting though, but 4E cosmology had something of an overlap. But this could be used as an evidence of Set subsuming Merrshaulk. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 Jun 2019 11:15:51 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2019 : 03:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I hadnt considered Zehir, mostly because i know nothing about 4e, but when i come to develop events further on Sseth, Set, Seti, Zehir i will find everything i can on him and add it to the mix.
Zehir seems like a nice local aspect to place down in Chult.
With 4E it did expand a bit on the lore of Mulhorand and Unther.
While the Set-Zehir connection was confirmed only (fairly) the Chessenta article by Brian R. James (in Dungeon # 178), elaborated on Sebek's origins.
Indeed he wasn't taken with the rest of the Mulhorandi pantheon to Toril - the Toril version of Sebek is a child of Set and a "bestial" Archfey named Mornach:
quote:
Compared to the other beings worshiped in Chessenta, crocodile-headed Sebakar (seh-ba-kar) is
something of an anathema: the offspring of a forbidden union between the ancient Mulhorandi
manifestation of Set and a bestial archfey of the Feywild known as Mornach.
5E also developed the Untheric pantheon (especially via the latter Brimstone Angels books), first by having Enlil return and him become a god of Tymanther and Torilian Dragonborn, now having the form of a black scaled Dragonborn with, opposing Gilgeam and the returned Unther.
Enlil also made a deal with Asmodeus, and it was him who persuaded the Lord of the Ninth to release Azuth, in turn for giving Asmodeus the divinity of Nanna-Sin. In turn Asmodeus also resurrected Nanna-Sin an (non-divine) immortal.
Curiously, Nanna-Sin also returned in the form of a Dragon Turtle - it might be connected to him and Enlil allying with Dragonborn now, but I'm also note sure if this also doesn't mean the writers want to tie the Untheric/Mesopotamian (Babylonian and Sumerian) gods to Tiamat, as her descendants.
It's also curious Enlil is there portrayed as rather benevolent, despite his deal with Asmodeus.
Also, Gilgaem returned, but a discussion between Enlil and his Chosen, Kepeshkmolik Dumuzi, suggests he might an impostor, possibly son of the original Gilgeam. |
Edited by - Baltas on 14 Jun 2019 03:40:23 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2019 : 20:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well I have thus far ignored 4e link with sebek and mornach. Instead choosing to make him a brutish member of the heroes that travelled to toril to rescue the mulan who is later cursed into part reptilian form.
I have a plan, when I move onto chessenta properly, to add in sebekar as a child of mornach and haastaask (another crocodile demigod that sebek later subsumes) but this child is firmly in service to seti (who is following set across the realms to learn what happened to him.
Hmmm, dunno, I really think Sebek being Set's son works - it also explains how the Mulhorandi pantheon accepted Sebek into their number.
I only really saw the connection between Haaashastaak in fan material - as Haaashastaak is a deity from the Melnibonean mythos (ie the Elric of Melniboné series), who once canon in D&D, and used by Ed as a Beast Lord (Lord of Lizards or Reptiles). Is there some official, or semi-official source on this (like Thomas Costa's or Erlic' L. Boyd's posts or writings? If so, could you link me them?)
Sebek could be connected to Haaashastaak though, trough Mornach - Mornach could be Lord (lady) of Reptiles, before or after Haaashastaak.
There are many Beast Lords "occupying" the position - in D&D there are even 6 known Cat Lords - the Melnibonean mythos Meerclar, Mistress of Cats; the young male Cat Lord described in Greyhawk/latter AD&D materials, the old Cat Lord and his successor "Kittenlord" in the Forgotten Realms comics; another Female Cat Lord described in Planescape, another male Catlord described as Archfey in 4E. (I also always thought Felidae was possibly another Cat Lord (Cat Lady), before being subsumed by Bast.)
And while some of the Beast Lord's were described as Primal Sprits, other like Neifion and the 4E, the Lord of Bats, were described as Archfey.
Some Cat Lord's are descendants of past ones - in Gary Gygax' Gord novels, the Greyhawk Cat Lord gave his position to Gord (who was his descendant).
So my take on this, could be that Mornach was the daughter, or more distant descendant of Haaashastaak, who inherited position of the Lady of Reptiles from Haaashastaak - who could have grown his power by expanding, or making it precisely about Crocodiles and crocodiles, along with possibly rivers, river hazards, or wetlands.
Set could then goad his son, to slay his grandfather or ancestor, and get Haaashastaak for himself. This could also show Set's skills as a corrupter and manipulator.
Or one could cut out the "blood relation" between Mornach and Haaashastaak; and just make that Haaashastaak given, or lost the Lord of Reptiles role to her; while retaining divinity by expanding his portfolio. With Sebel still slaying him, and absorbing his portfolio.
Mornach could also be connected with Zakhara's Ragarra, who is quite similar to Sebek:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ragarra
As we discussed in the past, there are some connections between Zakhara and Unther and Mulhorand (ie the Iron Spires of Ereshkigal, was a ruined city found on the isle of Sahu in east Zakhara).
Or that's just my ideas  |
Edited by - Baltas on 14 Jun 2019 20:22:47 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2019 : 21:17:22
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Thanks for the information on Sebek and Haaashastaak being connected in Polyhedron - this will be really useful, and I will have to hunt for Polyhedron issues to get these articles of Eric L Boyd.
(I only have the 117 issue with the Bright Nydra article)
With the Pantheons, I understand and remember your position - but wat I meant is that I'm not sure the older Mulhorandi Gods, would allow Sebek and his cult in Mulhorand, seeing how he behaves (something you yourself mentioned), so I think Set standing up for him, and explaining he is his son, could make this much more plausible.
Of course, Set could just lie, to have an ally, and possibly grown to be a "father figure" to Sebek, even is Sebek was Mornach and Haaashastaak son in reality,
(Not to mention, myths make deities related, even if they aren't or originally - Mielikki was stated to be believed to be Silvanus' daughter, while elves believed she (as Khalreshaar) was the daughter of Silvanus and Hanali Celanil.)
Haaashastaak, also was described in the 1E Deities of Demigods as appearing as a giant T-Rex - the artist of the Melnibonean mythos, Jeff Dee even drew him after years in 2012:
http://fav.me/d515k4t
I think Sebek in his Haaashastaak aspect, could be worshipped this form in Chult (if as a T-Rex with crocodilian traits, it being full osteoderms, and in generally thicker more armored skin than tyrannosauruses are believed in, spikes from the head, through the back to tail etc.)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2019 : 22:19:24
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It's not that I'm ignoring the 4e or 5e lore but when I started I made a couple of design decisions that I intend to stick to so i can keep things consistent.
First was no direct divine intervention, so once a being becomes a true God they can no longer have any direct interaction with anything on the material plane.
Second was that all real world history and events is for loose inspiration only (to reduce the muddled mess of human myths and legends, especially when it comes to deities)
Third was I would treat every source like a history book, is it primary, secondary, tertiary source. Did the event actually happen, is it a myth or a legend etc.
So because of those decisions I decided the mulan gods came to toril as human beings (see rule number one). They ruled over bits of mulhorand, some died in the orcgate wars, others died in the civil war. Later most ascended to true godhead.
Sebek we know ruled sekras, we know he was declared outcast.
The 4e source mentions he is the child of mornach and set, but I don't see any other mention of it or any other information in chessenta or mulhorand to back it up so I can only assume it is a myth or a rumour.
So thus far I have discounted that particular bit of info. I will of course work the rumour or myth into the redesign as a myth or rumour (perhaps spread by other beings to alienate mornach and her Fey from her allies, or to further glorify sebek), but so far it is an unused source. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2019 : 09:05:08
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I understand.
This might be a coicidence, but the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons starting out as mortals, is what was described in first Old Empires sourcebook (as I wrote years ago) - only that tgere Re and Enlil were Artificiers who defeated some undetailed Gods, and stole their divinity, sharing it with their spouses and closest alies. But the battle between the forces of Enlil and Re with the Old Gods, pretty much destroyed the Imaskari Empire.
There are differences here though with the Gods of Mulan being Imaskari Artificers.
This also reminded me how we discussed, Set Pazuzu and Typhon. From what I researched, Set started to be connected with snakes/serpents, when he started to get syncretized with Typhon since about late 6th century BC/early 5th century BC.
(Which might be what on part motivated Robert Howard to present Father Set as a Serpent God. Which in turn influenced latter depictions of Set, and derived Serpent Gods from Father Set)
The syncretism was so deep, the mysterious Set animal was very often known ad the "Typhonian animal" or "Typhonic beast"
Typhon is presented as either very similar to a Yuan-Ti Anathema (ie having a hudred serpent/dragon heads - like the many heads of the 3E and 5E Anathema, and/or a body made out of coiled snakes, and serpent fingers like the 4E Anathema), or Sseth (ie a winged serpentman, if with Typhon with 2-3 snake tails for legs).
Whik this is real life contex, it was mentioned in multiple sources Set is known outside of Mulhorand as Typhon, my idea here is that Typhon could be either be a Sarrukh deity Set subsumed very early on; or that Set could steal the ritual needed to become a Yuan-Ti Anathema and used on himself; or Typhon could a Yuan-Ti Anathema, that ascended to demi-godhood, who Set subsumed (again very early on), but it altered him in personality (like Bast was altered by subsuming Felidae and Zandilar).
(I think you even suggested something similar) |
Edited by - Baltas on 15 Jun 2019 09:12:10 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2019 : 19:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Mornach could also be connected with Zakhara's Ragarra, who is quite similar to Sebek:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ragarra
As we discussed in the past, there are some connections between Zakhara and Unther and Mulhorand (ie the Iron Spires of Ereshkigal, was a ruined city found on the isle of Sahu in east Zakhara).
Or that's just my ideas
I must say, I like THIS idea. Since Mornach seems to have no basis in anything that I've been able to research, having Mornach be another name to Ragarra could make sense. Of course, if Set and Ragarra/Mornach did mate, it would have caused conflict with him and Shajar (Ragarra's hippopotamus headed mate, a river god who represented both life giving qualities and death dealing properties in the form of floods). Shajar being animal headed like other Mulhorandi gods would make him also fit in the pantheon. Perhaps like Ereshkigal, there was a falling out between the various Mulan deities and a third faction led folk down into Zakhara. This could account for several gods (Shajar, Ereshkigal, Ragarra, the cat huntress called Kiga the Predator, and even the elephant headed god known only as the Lost One). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2019 : 19:42:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Haaashastaak, also was described in the 1E Deities of Demigods as appearing as a giant T-Rex - the artist of the Melnibonean mythos, Jeff Dee even drew him after years in 2012:
http://fav.me/d515k4t
Hmmm, so is Kazgoroth of the Moonshaes |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 06:11:00
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I feel kind of bad for Sobek; he went from a relatively important deity in myth to simply being Set's toady in the Realms, when in reality one of his myths had him aiding Isis in putting back Osiris together again.
As for Set himself, I'm of the opinion that his real beef is with Horus, Osiris, Isis and possibly Anubis (mitigated now that Anubis has left the pantheon and gone on to become the Guardian of Dead Gods). He's still a valued member of his pantheon, charged with the protection of Ra against Apep whenever the sun god passes through the Twelve Hours of Night. Apep himself shouldn't be a demigod; he should be the pantheon's equivalent of Tharizdun, only people are crazy enough to sail through his prison domain.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2019 : 23:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well you are very close to what I've already done with Set, although I made Typhon one of the beast cults from the endless wastes (a jackal cult) mostly because the name didn't sound very sarrukh.
After reading all the old empires material I made a number of spurious links. Firstly that set was the unnamed divine precept of the land that would be Thay. This means he had ready access to a host of sarrukh ruins. At some point he encountered the guardian of the ruins (I think I chose mdaess) and kills it, gaining some of its power (I figure combat between quasi deities is a bit like highlander) and that starts him off becoming more snake like.
He then sets out finding more about the sarrukh, transforming himself gradually. He sets off the orcgate wars, unintentionally loses the civil war and eventually leaves mulhorand following a portal network that takes him to isstosseffifil and merrshaulk.
So even Set begins as not a baddie and just a normal human
Well, I get you point, although Typhon was known as "Typhoeus" as much Typhon:
https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html
Which is a slightly more Sarrukh name.
Although I like Set's "demon-jackal" form is from him subsuming Typhon, seeing the Set Animal was known as the "Typhonian animal" or "Typhonic beast".
Although I would suggest Typhon as a beast cult deity, was fiendish in nature. This would explain why he looked so, even kinda fiendish in nature (ie forked tail), and it did happen in past (the Blue Beard spirit became fiendish, after being corrupted by demons, Zanassu was worshiped by Spider Beast cult, as was Lolth when the Forgotten Realms debuted.).
With Mulan Gods (of Akanu, Unther and Mulhorand), while them not starting out as gods, I think an idea could be with them startig out as being 4E Devas, who were even connected with Mulhorand and Unther in canon, or something similar:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Deva_(aasimar)
http://dustin.wikidot.com/devas
Although I get if you would prefer to keep them human.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I must say, I like THIS idea. Since Mornach seems to have no basis in anything that I've been able to research, having Mornach be another name to Ragarra could make sense. Of course, if Set and Ragarra/Mornach did mate, it would have caused conflict with him and Shajar (Ragarra's hippopotamus headed mate, a river god who represented both life giving qualities and death dealing properties in the form of floods). Shajar being animal headed like other Mulhorandi gods would make him also fit in the pantheon. Perhaps like Ereshkigal, there was a falling out between the various Mulan deities and a third faction led folk down into Zakhara. This could account for several gods (Shajar, Ereshkigal, Ragarra, the cat huntress called Kiga the Predator, and even the elephant headed god known only as the Lost One).
Glad you like my idea, and I also believe Mornach might be Ragarra, and I also think part of the Mulan gods (or related gods like Mornach/Ragarra), migrated to Zakhara (as you mentioned), ie Shajar, Ereshkigal, Ragarra and possibly the Lost one. Although I think the Lost One might be from Maltara and/or Utter East - Ganesha or related deity.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, so is Kazgoroth of the Moonshaes
They might be related, although Kazgoroth of the Moonshaes is connected to the Earthmother and Malar. It's possible Haaashastaak is connected to the Earthmother, as are other Beast Lords, with Kazgoroth being a product of Malar trying to subsume Haaashastaak, before Sebek.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I feel kind of bad for Sobek; he went from a relatively important deity in myth to simply being Set's toady in the Realms, when in reality one of his myths had him aiding Isis in putting back Osiris together again.
As for Set himself, I'm of the opinion that his real beef is with Horus, Osiris, Isis and possibly Anubis (mitigated now that Anubis has left the pantheon and gone on to become the Guardian of Dead Gods). He's still a valued member of his pantheon, charged with the protection of Ra against Apep whenever the sun god passes through the Twelve Hours of Night. Apep himself shouldn't be a demigod; he should be the pantheon's equivalent of Tharizdun, only people are crazy enough to sail through his prison domain.
Well, Sebek relationship with Set soured, and his more of an ally, than his minion by now. As I wrote before, Forgotten Realms Sebek has an alternate origin compared to real life Sebek - was was spawned in the Realms, a result of Set's relationship with the Archfey Mornarch, when he was already on Toril. So Toril! Sebek is essentially a separate being from Earth! Sebek.
Set's demonization, is a result of how influential fiction depicted him - for example Robert Howard's Father Set, which conflated Set, with Apep, if due to Set's conflation with Typhon by the Greeks and Hellenized Egyptian religion.
About that - indeed, Set's conflation with Typhon, seems to be origin of him becoming an outright god of evil, and gaining serpentine traits - as Typhon was a serpentine dragon-demon, with depending on description, hundred dragon/serpent heads, hundreds dragon heads for hands, or hundreds of dragon tails for legs, or all of these at the same this. This an accurate depiction of Typhon, for example:
http://fav.me/d7txly5
Typhon himself, was basically the equivalent of Tharizdun. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 Jun 2019 00:30:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 01:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, so is Kazgoroth of the Moonshaes
They might be related, although Kazgoroth of the Moonshaes is connected to the Earthmother and Malar. It's possible Haaashastaak is connected to the Earthmother, as are other Beast Lords, with Kazgoroth being a product of Malar trying to subsume Haaashastaak, before Sebek.
Just to note, Kazgoroth is connected to a LOT of gods (more than I ever realized until last year). He's been connected to Malar, Talos, and Bhaal. I'd also note, he could fit in very well with Zaltec of the Maztican pantheon. I wouldn't be surprised if he's some old entity who has been forced to take on various roles to survive, working for deities who are more prevalent today. But, if the deity looked like a T-Rex, and Kazgoroth is a "divine being" that looks like a T-Rex, then it make sense to possibly think they either the same being under another name OR somehow related.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2019 : 16:37:59
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Well, yes Kazgoroth is mysterious. While he is called an aspect of Malar, and is connected to lycanthropy, Kazgoroth is far more into manipulation and subterfuge than Malar.
Kazgoroth was also described as an aspect of Bhaal, although also called his servant, or minion, like Malar was then.
Still, there are visible differences.
If Kazgoroth though, is Haaashastaak or maybe his aspect I would guess he was severally corrupted.
Kazgoroth might also be just another Reptile Lord, who got corrupted, like the Blue Bear totem of Uthgardt, who also got subsumed/absorbed by Malar.
With Set, I discovered that in the Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes, which had both the Egyptian and Hyborian (Conan) pantheons, and the book explicitly stated Set of the Egyptian pantheon and Father Set/Set the Serpent God are the same.
Ed himself in his setting, presented Set based on his Father Set interpretation, (with Mulhorand being more like Stygia - the country from Robert Howard's Conan novels not the plane to be clear).
I mention this, as this shows I think how Ssseth being Set, is actually close to Ed's vision, and has actually a bass in D&D canon (seeing Sseth is obviously inspired by Father Set.) |
Edited by - Baltas on 24 Jun 2019 17:58:48 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2019 : 04:01:23
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The recent DM's Guild Moonshae work by Eric Menge and ors. provides a good insight into the nature of Kazgoroth.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2019 : 18:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The recent DM's Guild Moonshae work by Eric Menge and ors. provides a good insight into the nature of Kazgoroth.
-- George Krashos
I must say, some pretty great stuff in the Moonshae Isles Regional Guide.
It has really works that Kazgoroth just kinda uses the gods he served, especially seeing he was portrayed as very cunning being.
It also has some pretty interesting other information, like LeShay being the descendants of the first Primal Elves, that the book states sprout from Corellon's blood, and that they are "the closest among the eladrin to being reincarnated as an Archfey". |
Edited by - Baltas on 29 Jun 2019 19:20:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2019 : 23:52:47
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Well, I can understand you having a different take on it, especially that the LeShay coming from Corellon, might just a legend by Seldarine worshiping elves - especially how it's worded.
Although I found it interested the Moonshae Isles Regional Guide explored more the lore of LeShay and their connection to elves, with them being closest to the Primal Elves (even kinda similar to your idea of Drine), and suggesting how many Archfey are likely of LeShay origins (which also can work with idea Seldarine were LeShay or a cloeslly related fey/elven group, seeing as shown with Deep Sashelas
becoming an Archfey after he temporarily lost his divinity.)
With Eladrin, in 4E seemingly the writers in a large part re-used the Eladrin name for more "immortal and fey high elves", probably due to the (probably intentional) resemblance of the Eladrin name to Tolkien's Eldar, as a result merging the the celestial Eladrin with the Fey High Elves, up to using the names and concepts of coure, bralani, and ghaele.
(They done something similar, but more extreme with Elemental Archons in 4E, who also had little connection to past Celestial Archons.)
Your take makes a lot more sense, and I general quite like it.
I also had LeShay not being Corellon's creations, with a very similar idea to your Drine, but I wasn't sure about the connection with the CG Outsider Eladrin. But I also thought the Fey ancestors of Eladrin somehow took Arborea and established the current generation of CG outsiders - I had the same done with Batrachi taking over Limbo and causing the creation of Slaadi.
(As while Outsiders are created from petitioner souls, there is precedence for such things - Baatezu overtaking Ancient Baatorians, and changing how Petitioners souls work on Baator, some Nupperibo
notwithstanding; or first Erinyes, and Succubi being fallen angels, and first Gelugons being Yuggoloths etc.) |
Edited by - Baltas on 30 Jun 2019 02:23:19 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2019 : 14:58:44
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Haha, yeah I think I think this topic got derailed a bit, all due to Kazgoroth.
Maybe we'll continue this on the Moonshae thread.
But returning to the Old Empires, the novels from the Brimstone Angels series, Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know show some pretty interesting information on, and characterization of Enlil, the most he got in Forgotten Realms, or even in D&D, at least in terms of personality, as well as adding some Unther lore. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2019 : 14:42:31
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I understand.
I think I should warn with the Brimstone Angels series, while good, Enlil only appears in the last two books, of a 6 novel long series.
Also, with Ishtar/Ish-Tarri - I know you gave her a story, but I wonder if Ishtar couldn't have become Sune, or an entity that split from her, or a former follower of Ishtar/Ish-Tarri.
(There is precedence Ishtar "fragmenting", as in lore she and Inanna split.)
There is very little known about Sune - her first known follower is noted to be from 2000 years ago (Champions of Ruin). While the stories of the artifact known as "the Sash of Sune", appear as far as 3000 years ago according to "Prayers to the Faithful", the same book mentions item is first wholly and reliably
identified in "Travels of Aruugh" chapbook from 1100 years ago (1000 years ago before the 4E timeskip), and it's possible the Shash of Sune, was known as the Sash of Ishtar before that, or was unrelated to her before that, possibly being relate to a another love goddess the theoretical proto-Sune/Ishtar subsumed/absorbed.
While the wiki states also Ishtar left Unther after Enlil did (-734 DR, curiously about 200 years ago), it was never written so in official lore, from what I checked, although I might be wrong.
This could also explain why Sune saved Sharess/Bast from Shar - when she was Ishtar (or part of her was Ishtar), they allies or maybe even friends. (Although this could be changed into politics of worshipers of Shar, Sharess/Bast and Sune.)
There is also though also an slight implication Sune, despite her (not allays though) described humanocentrism, might have some Fey origins, seeing the spell she gives "Merge with Nature" allows her cleric to permanently become a Dryad, but this might be due to Ishtar subsuming/absorbing/merging with a Fey (demi?) goddess/Archfey of beauty, love or lust, maybe even Verenestra. |
Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jul 2019 15:29:36 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Reimagining Old Empires
